I have a feeling my point may got lost in trying to get it from my head to written words but I will give it a go!

We (mankind) have spent many hundreds of years making the world we live in today. Including the way we make transactions with money. Originally this was done so we didn't have to carry sheep or goats round in our wallets to exchange for goods. Now the majority of the world is ruled by the desire of business to make money. If we think about money it isn't really anything, it used to represent an amount of gold that had to be kept in the reserves but I believe this isn't the case any longer. So in real terms we are fighting over bits of paper.

I don't think this will happen any time soon but is it possible that this system we have created could collapse? All the big businesses collapse, money becomes worthless across the whole planet and we have to start again.

i think the all process would just start over again the strong beating on the weak grabbing land & power

But the amount of paper you have will always dictate how many cows and sheep you can buy - therefore it will continue to be important?

I have a feeling my point may got lost in trying to get it from my head to written words but I will give it a go!

We (mankind) have spent many hundreds of years making the world we live in today. Including the way we make transactions with money. Originally this was done so we didn't have to carry sheep or goats round in our wallets to exchange for goods. Now the majority of the world is ruled by the desire of business to make money. If we think about money it isn't really anything, it used to represent an amount of gold that had to be kept in the reserves but I believe this isn't the case any longer. So in real terms we are fighting over bits of paper.

I don't think this will happen any time soon but is it possible that this system we have created could collapse? All the big businesses collapse, money becomes worthless across the whole planet and we have to start again.

Absolutely. Very much so.

Politicians and industrialists and financiers and the rest of the world's 'elite' are pretty worried about that right now... to say the very least. They will hang on to their power and control of the world with utter tenacity for as long as they possibly can. Will they succeed? Who knows

Thoughtful people are hoping the world is on the edge of a much more spiritually-based world, rather than the soul-destroying materialist one the vast majority of the world's population have suffered under for so long.

StarSparkle

Wow! Do you work? Where do you find the time to sit and think of these things?!? But coming to your conclusion, It could be a possibility but on the other hand what do they (mankind) say???? "money makes the world go round". These bits of paper we earn and fight for pays for the internet you are using at the moment! :) If the whole system did collapse let's say? I can't imagine what we would do? Can you?? ;)

Thoughtful people are hoping the world is on the edge of a much more spiritually-based world, rather than the soul-destroying materialist one the vast majority of the world's population have suffered under for so long.

StarSparkle



That is something else I was thinking about. If it did collapse and we had to start again could we create a better world. That didn't reward things like greed. There has to be reward for innovation and things that drive mankind forward. It shouldn't be done by making the rich richer and the poor poorer though.

We accept the system as it is now but it has come together not because of careful planning but because it just has. Lots of small decisions without an overall goal have created the world we live in today. If we could start again could we create a better system. One that made use of everybody's strengths allowed us to progress but didn't reward people for taking advantage of others.

But the amount of paper you have will always dictate how many cows and sheep you can buy - therefore it will continue to be important?

Umm not necessarily. Money is now mostly debt, very little of it is supported by tangible assets.

To try and briefly explain, every time someone borrows money to buy a house, the lender simply types in a six figure sum into that person's account and they pay it to the vendor. Hey presto! A six figure sum that did not exist 5 minutes previously. Wealth has been created. Multiply this millions(?) of times for all the transactions all over the world for a number of years.

All is well until the debt starts to look worthless, then your money starts to look worthless and then no-one will exchange his cow or sheep for it.

Wow! Do you work?


How did you guess. I am off work ill today. Just in time to have a lousy weekend :hihi:

That is something else I was thinking about. If it did collapse and we had to start again could we create a better world. That didn't reward things like greed. There has to be reward for innovation and things that drive mankind forward. It shouldn't be done by making the rich richer and the poor poorer though.

We accept the system as it is now but it has come together not because of careful planning but because it just has. Lots of small decisions without an overall goal have created the world we live in today. If we could start again could we create a better system. One that made use of everybody's strengths allowed us to progress but didn't reward people for taking advantage of others.

Without money and goverment it would be even worse for the poor, it would be back to survival of the fittest and as already mentioned the strong would grab land and power and leave the weak to fight over the scraps, there would be no safety net for the disabled or weak and it would be a pretty awful world to live in not the utopia that some people expect. Like it or lump it Capitilism gives structure provides wealth and gives people (that can be bothered) the chance to better themselves plus it works :thumbsup:

All is well until the debt starts to look worthless, then your money starts to look worthless and then no-one will exchange his cow or sheep for it.

That is what I feel could finally cause a total collapse. In many cases money is just a number on a screen. Why does it have any real value. It doesn't.

Without money and goverment it would be even worse for the poor, it would be back to survival of the fittest and as already mentioned the strong would grab land and power and leave the weak to fight over the scraps, there would be no safety net for the disabled or weak and it would be a pretty awful world to live in not the utopia that some people expect. Like it or lump it Capitilism gives structure provides wealth and gives people (that can be bothered) the chance to better themselves plus it works :thumbsup:


I nearly added similar to my earlier reply. It wouldn't work like we would all hope if we started again. Someone of a similar personality (if that is the right word in this context) to Hitler would probably end up ruling the world.

That is something else I was thinking about. If it did collapse and we had to start again could we create a better world. That didn't reward things like greed. There has to be reward for innovation and things that drive mankind forward. It shouldn't be done by making the rich richer and the poor poorer though.

We accept the system as it is now but it has come together not because of careful planning but because it just has. Lots of small decisions without an overall goal have created the world we live in today. If we could start again could we create a better system. One that made use of everybody's strengths allowed us to progress but didn't reward people for taking advantage of others.

That would be the hope and the ideal.

It sounds like pie in the sky a bit maybe - but who knows?

StarSparkle

I have a feeling my point may got lost in trying to get it from my head to written words but I will give it a go!

We (mankind) have spent many hundreds of years making the world we live in today. Including the way we make transactions with money. Originally this was done so we didn't have to carry sheep or goats round in our wallets to exchange for goods. Now the majority of the world is ruled by the desire of business to make money. If we think about money it isn't really anything, it used to represent an amount of gold that had to be kept in the reserves but I believe this isn't the case any longer. So in real terms we are fighting over bits of paper.

I don't think this will happen any time soon but is it possible that this system we have created could collapse? All the big businesses collapse, money becomes worthless across the whole planet and we have to start again.

100% it will collapse. The money is fictional and thought up as magic numbers and letters on a computer screen. £1billion dollars doesnt exist as £1billion worth of gold. It is fed by capitalism and real wealth (trees, forestry, gas and the main one, oil). Once the world runs out of its resources, and remember we are told the western world would need 3 times the earths we currently have to continue our standard of living, it is obvious it will collapse, when their is no more trees left to chop or oil in the ground.

then ppl will use gold and silver, sheeps, goats and the like again to trade. the clever man is the one who recognises this now, whilst still in the system.

good post

I nearly added similar to my earlier reply. It wouldn't work like we would all hope if we started again. Someone of a similar personality (if that is the right word in this context) to Hitler would probably end up ruling the world.

Yes exactly, taking away the "evils" of money / capitilism away would not remove the evil people or the greed that some of the human race have, they are here to stay like it or lump it. I know we all complain about how this country is run but at least we have a somewhat happy balance of free markets and a safety net for the "weaker" in society. The strongest may be well off / rich but at least the weak can have a life that is worth living at the moment, it could be a hell of a lot worse..

I don't think money is the Achilles heel of the system (although the current credit crunch shambles may prove me wrong), I think it is energy.

money has been around for a long time, and is pretty well tested by now. recessions and depressions yes, but complete systems failure no.

energy on the other hand …. scares me a lot. the main issue is that we have an infrastructure, financial, computing and distribution that is inextricably linked to energy. turn off the energy supplies and because we have replaced local agricultural and supply methods using labour, with international distribution methods dependant on energy, we would be starving very quickly.

at least it’s Friday though, and the weather forecast is good for the weekend, look on the bright side.

:)

If we could start again could we create a better system. One that made use of everybody's strengths allowed us to progress but didn't reward people for taking advantage of others.



Some places and times have had such a system. It's not better, because it doesn't work. Capitalism is the only working system we've ever come across, because it freely admits that people are greedy and selfish, and uses that to its advantage.

Capitalism has done a great job of consuming the planet's natural resources at a rate several times greater than the planet can actually cope with. We're in a honeymoon period before the global warming and environmental degradation come to bite.

Whatever it is that Islamic nations do, they don't appear to have the opulent levels of personal wealth and the ludicrous amounts of waste. Perhaps Al Quaeda have a point after all.

Anyway - as I understand it, the "system" relies on continuous economic growth for some bizarre reason. Surely that's pretty much impossible in a world of finite resources, so yes the "system" is certain to fail?

Why we can't just have a economy that stays the same size, I don't understand?

Whatever it is that Islamic nations do, they don't appear to have the opulent levels of personal wealth and the ludicrous amounts of waste.



You've never met a sheikh?

They will hang on to their power and control of the world with utter tenacity for as long as they possibly can. Will they succeed? Who knows

Thoughtful people are hoping the world is on the edge of a much more spiritually-based world, rather than the soul-destroying materialist one the vast majority of the world's population have suffered under for so long.
You don't actually believe that, do you?

I think we are in a transitional period, where the monetary system we knew is changing into credit/debt system, the monetary system we knew was bought out during the early 1900s by the credit system.

When you work, your not working for money, you are working for a statement of credit (wage slip, bank statement). In theory everything has already been paid, when you appear to be purchasing something, you are claiming said Item upon your credit whilst entering into a new contract with the vendor, so your receipt is confirmation of transfer for credit.
Which is why you can use receipts as legal tender when claiming back tax.

There is a whole lot more to it than this, and I aint had the time to investigate and get my head around how it all truly works, but it wreaks of glorified slavery to me.

Your signature is also legal tender, when you apply for a loan, you trade your signature for debt, and use credit to pay off the debt.

You've never met a sheikh?

Heheh forgot about them! Maybe they'd say that they are selling overpriced oil to the evil infidels and working to bring down the system from within. :hihi:

Has anyone come across a decent explanation of how it all actually works? I can never really get my head round it properly.

How can the world economy over a long period always grow? Where does the money come from? Does it all equate back to natural resources? Surely it must all balance out somewhere? For every business or person that makes more money there isn't someone else loosing the same amount of money. So how does it actually grow?

It works on a contractual basis.
If your perception of the contract changes, then the system fails, example if you use your signature as legal tender to the value of say £10k, then the loan is paid for by the signature given, and the statement of debt is an imaginary tender, which is why banks can right off debt or sell it on.

I have worked it out - sort of :hihi:

It is like a game of musical chairs. While the music is playing the system is working. As soon as it stops it turns into chaos. Now is it just me or has the world got very quiet.

:)

I have worked it out - sort of :hihi:

It is like a game of musical chairs. While the music is playing the system is working. As soon as it stops it turns into chaos. Now is it just me or has the world got very quiet.

:)

Everyone's waiting to see what happens next

StarSparkle

I really wish this hadn't popped into my head now! I have convinced myself a global financial meltdown is imminent. It is like a giant pyramid selling scheme but nobody has either realised or cared.

The system relies on perpetual growth, we need debt to create money and then we need more money to pay off the debt and then we need more debt to create more money to pay off the debt which means we need more money and so on and so on. This has to fail at some point.

Ok. Now I have the solution. :hihi:


We need to scrap money as we know it. Introduce a new global currency "credits" that there is a fixed amount of. It just moves around there is never extra created. It would probably mean that natural resources had to be centrally controlled as well. This would put an end to the concept of interest and inflation. Credits would simply flow round the system never increasing or decreasing in value. You could borrow credits but only certain amounts and there would be no interest payable on them.

I can obviously see why this would never work. First we would need to eliminate all the negative human traits that would cause a problem.

Ok. Now I have the solution. :hihi:


We need to scrap money as we know it. Introduce a new global currency "credits" that there is a fixed amount of. It just moves around there is never extra created. It would probably mean that natural resources had to be centrally controlled as well. This would put an end to the concept of interest and inflation. Credits would simply flow round the system never increasing or decreasing in value. You could borrow credits but only certain amounts and there would be no interest payable on them.

I can obviously see why this would never work. First we would need to eliminate all the negative human traits that would cause a problem.

Follow the link. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279) The bit that might interest you is about 37 minutes in, though the whole thing is worth a look.

I really wish this hadn't popped into my head now! I have convinced myself a global financial meltdown is imminent. It is like a giant pyramid selling scheme but nobody has either realised or cared.

The system relies on perpetual growth, we need debt to create money and then we need more money to pay off the debt and then we need more debt to create more money to pay off the debt which means we need more money and so on and so on. This has to fail at some point.

The banks are forever creating credit, if I am right then for every penny you borrow, the bank has x amount extra lending power.

So for example, they loan you £1 and they're lending power increases by £5, so you loan £1 and bank1 makes a credit profit of £5, but it borrows your £1 from bank2, so bank2 also has £5 extra credit who borrows its money from bank3 to pay bank1 and so on and so forth.

If your bank says you owe them money, ask them to send you a bill and not a statement and see what they say.

eventually what happens is bank 1 has all the money bank2 and bank3 only own credit, if bank1 refuses to loan out (creating a credit crunch), bank2/3 go bankrupt and are generally funded by the taxes to stabalise (give them physical cash) just for bank1 to buy it out.

Now bank1 owns everything, resources, and all systems, and welcome to the financial version of the new world order.

Follow the link. The bit that might interest you is about 37 minutes in, though the whole thing is worth a look.

I think the link is missing but was it going to the "Money is debt" video? If so I am already watching it, thanks though. If not then could you add the link or point me in the right direction if I have just missed it! Thanks. :)

Can this system fail, yes,
will it, not in my lifetime, not without a special type of WW.

In theory it could be done without spilling a drop of blood.

Maybe Mr Marx had a point after all. Terms like "surplus value" and "false consciouness" spring to mind.

If it does all fail, maybe "socialist utopia" might be created....which I suppose is a bit like Star Trek and Patrick Stewart will be our leader and Huddersfield will be the new metropolis.

:hihi:

How did you guess. I am off work ill today. Just in time to have a lousy weekend :hihi:

O the joy of having too much time on your hands!! :)

Maybe Mr Marx had a point after all. Terms like "surplus value" and "false consciouness" spring to mind.

If it does all fail, maybe "socialist utopia" might be created....which I suppose is a bit like Star Trek and Patrick Stewart will be our leader and Huddersfield will be the new metropolis.

:hihi:

You mean Leeds, its the only city worth mentioning in Yorkshire you know.
You know all this sun we get here, its them pulling a moonie at us.

You know all this sun we get here, its them pulling a moonie at us.

B R I L L I A N T :clap:

The best putdown of that little village on the outskirts of Bradford that I've ever heard :thumbsup:

But the amount of paper you have will always dictate how many cows and sheep you can buy - therefore it will continue to be important?

Surely it's the other way around - the number of cows and sheep you have will determine your bartering position and conversely the goods you have to offer will do likewise - the idea of money backed by a system ie. Gold or paper, is a relatively 'modern' concept - but I could be wrong:)

Ok. Now I have the solution. :hihi:

Like the thread. :thumbsup:


We need to scrap money as we know it. Introduce a new global currency "credits" that there is a fixed amount of. It just moves around there is never extra created. It would probably mean that natural resources had to be centrally controlled as well. This would put an end to the concept of interest and inflation. Credits would simply flow round the system never increasing or decreasing in value. You could borrow credits but only certain amounts and there would be no interest payable on them.
A problem... war!

If one country (or part collective of a mass 'one world') has say 1million credits in circulation, and one country has 10 times more people, and 10 times more credits (10 milion credits in circ).. and the larger country decides to invade the smaller country.. the smaller country may have to borrow credits from another country.

Who would lend these credits to them with a zero percent chance of any increased income coming back, and a high possibility of no credits coming back. :confused:




I can obviously see why this would never work. First we would need to eliminate all the negative human traits that would cause a problem.

ooops... typed all that, didn't see this bit :hihi:

It still would make no difference, if you borrowed 10 credits with no intention of paying back, or you die, or you can't claim any other credits to pay back etc, you end up with bad credit again, and the system eventually ends up in the same situation it is in now.

It still would make no difference, if you borrowed 10 credits with no intention of paying back, or you die, or you can't claim any other credits to pay back etc, you end up with bad credit again, and the system eventually ends up in the same situation it is in now.
That's kind of what I meant.

I just wrote it out in a longer form to get my credits worth out of BT Broadband. :hihi:

That's kind of what I meant.

I just wrote it out in a longer form to get my credits worth out of BT Broadband. :hihi:

You won't have to soon, were going be getting it free.

The only way to create a system that never fails is to make everything for free, if the world had the understanding of:-

Go to work, don't expect a wage, just work, if you go into a shop and want something, ask the shop keeper for it and he'll give it you.

Then comes the argument, but nobody would work and would just go and get EVERYTHING for free, leaving others with nothing.

But then would the shop keeper really let you walk away with all his stock, and would you expect the shop to have what you wanted if nobody worked.

It would be my ideal world.

Or revert back to the old times, where religion gave charity, and people traded cattle etc, and worked to keep themselves and family alive.

That's kind of what I meant.

I just wrote it out in a longer form to get my credits worth out of BT Broadband. :hihi:

You're such a tight get, aren't you? And you won't turn your heating on, either :hihi:

I don't know much about all this money system stuff, but the way I see it is... someone somewhere is hoarding it all coz only a few years ago it was all over the place - everyone had some to throw around and now no-one has anything, so where'd it all go??? It can't just evaporate can it? And if everyone is so scared of giving it away to other people and we all start doing stuff like 'growing our own' fruit & veg that is, and being ultra careful about heating etc, then surely the system only goes in a downward spiral because so little money is in circulation. So if people spend less then this perpetuates the shortage of money available world wide... which in turn makes the monetary system less valued. Or am I off on a totally different tangent? I think the media has talked us into a recession as people may not feel as if they have less available capital, but they become more wary and spend less just in case things get worse, thus making things worse.... ?

It can't just evaporate can it?

It just lowers in value.

And the rest goes to Premiership football players.. :hihi:

And the rest goes to Premiership football players.. :hihi:

Ooooh don't get me started on that one! Some pooofs getting paid a small nation's annual gdp for kicking a ball around.... get them on the rugby field then see how tough they are... :hihi:

Ooooh don't get me started on that one! Some pooofs getting paid a small nation's annual gdp for kicking a ball around.... get them on the rugby field then see how tough they are... :hihi:

Personally I love football... but the wages :shocked:

The problem is... they ARE worth that money! - that's what annoys me.

So long as people are willing to part with huge sums of money for tickets, TV packages, shirts with players names on it and sponsorships... they bring the money in.

Indirectly (though I could get pulled on that) WE are to blame! :gag:

Without money and goverment it would be even worse for the poor, it would be back to survival of the fittest and as already mentioned the strong would grab land and power and leave the weak to fight over the scraps, there would be no safety net for the disabled or weak and it would be a pretty awful world to live in not the utopia that some people expect. Like it or lump it Capitilism gives structure provides wealth and gives people (that can be bothered) the chance to better themselves plus it works :thumbsup:


Sounds like the feudalism we had before money bastardised it :) problem is as other people have pointed out, once you have invented money the concept stays with you - you can't uninvent it. It'd take a mighty leap foreward in consciousness generally for things to move forward in the way Digsy describes but who knows, maybe one day we'll get there...

Ooooh don't get me started on that one! Some pooofs getting paid a small nation's annual gdp for kicking a ball around.... get them on the rugby field then see how tough they are... :hihi:

Yeah but nobody is willing to pay millions to see a group of blokes ruck and scrum together in the middle of a field...football is a commodity, it has a value and as long as there is a market for it it will prosper.

You're such a tight get, aren't you? And you won't turn your heating on, either :hihi:
I miissed that ya cheeky bleeder. :hihi:

If you come round for a cuppa I'll set fire to my bin, and we can sit round it. :)

Now that's not being tight. It's being resourceful (and stupid) simultaneously. ;)

The system would have 100% failed already if it wasn't for money!!!

The system would have 100% failed already if it wasn't for money!!!

The system would have failed if everyone refused to sign a contract.

I think the link is missing but was it going to the "Money is debt" video? If so I am already watching it, thanks though. If not then could you add the link or point me in the right direction if I have just missed it! Thanks. :)

Yes it was! I do apologise, I was sure I had a link at some point. Here it is anyway. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279)

I think the way it is now is the only way it could actually work. A system were money wasn't debt would fail quickly for the reasons discussed. It still seems wrong that the current system relies on perpetual growth to survive though.

I think everyone should take a bit of time to understand fractional reserve banking though it really does make you think. At least for a an hour or two anyway. Then you realise it is never going to change and just get on with living with the current system.

Fractional-reserve banking is the banking practice in which banks are required to keep only a fraction of their deposits in reserve with the choice of lending out the remainder while maintaining the obligation to redeem all deposits upon demand. This practice is universal in modern banking.