View Full Version : Isn't it Ironic


Cyclone
21-09-2008, 09:57
To emigrate with one reason for doing so 'immigration to the uk'?

Maybe Alanis Morisette should squeezed that into her ironic song.

Grim Reaper
21-09-2008, 10:00
To emigrate with one reason for doing so 'immigration to the uk'?

Maybe Alanis Morisette should squeezed that into her ironic song.

Yep, already mentioned it but the answer was vague verging on pants.

Jabberwocky
21-09-2008, 10:00
Its like saying "I hate murderers so to show my disgust Im going to kill someone!"

We have the most beautiful country in the world here and in spite of the news who LOVE to dramatise everything, things arent half as bad as they make out. I wouldnt leave this country for anything.

melthebell
21-09-2008, 10:22
yeah but your not really an immigrant unless your a muslim

rubydazzler
21-09-2008, 10:27
Quite often people won't realise you're trying to be ironic, mel, you just come over like you're trying to cause another muslims versus everyone else row, ya know. Just a thought! :)

This is not the most beautiful country in the word, and the weather is pants most of the time. New Zealand is the most beautiful country in the world and if I was 30 years younger, that where I'd be heading, if they'd let me in, that is!

I don't even care that it's miles away from anywhere. Iin fact, that seems like a positive advantage right now :D

daftlad
21-09-2008, 10:29
I would leave this country tomorrow for many reasons, immigration just being one of them. There is nothing wrong with controlled immigration, nothing at all. But the government has no <removed> idea how many are here and more than likely do not care how many. What really makes me mad about this is some ghurkas who have put their lives on the line for this country for many many years are having to go to court to see if they can stay here. On the other hand we have economic migrants and other immigrants who have done sweet f.a for this country and have no problem getting social and being housed here

Cyclone
21-09-2008, 10:29
Quite often people won't realise you're trying to be ironic, mel, you just come over like you're trying to cause another muslims versus everyone else row, ya know. Just a thought! :)

This is not the most beautiful country in the word, and the weather is pants most of the time. New Zealand is the most beautiful country in the world and if I was 30 years younger, that where I'd be heading, if they'd let me in, that is!

I don't even care that it's miles away from anywhere. Iin fact, that seems like a positive advantage right now :D

You'd have to be a sheep herder or an extra on Lord of the Rings, those are the only jobs they have (or so I heard from an immigrant).

melthebell
21-09-2008, 10:40
Quite often people won't realise you're trying to be ironic, mel, you just come over like you're trying to cause another muslims versus everyone else row, ya know. Just a thought! :)


semi sarcastic and semi what ive seen on here lately

rubydazzler
21-09-2008, 10:40
You'd have to be a sheep herder or an extra on Lord of the Rings, those are the only jobs they have (or so I heard from an immigrant).
Only if I can be an elf ... I'm not going to be an Orc! *puts on mardyface*

Maybe he was just telling you that to keep you from being competition for him! ;)

LordChaverly
21-09-2008, 10:59
To emigrate with one reason for doing so 'immigration to the uk'?

Maybe Alanis Morisette should squeezed that into her ironic song.


It may be ironic, but it is not irrational. Nor is it hypocritical. If the scale, pattern and type of immigration into your country is not to your liking (indeed, if you find it so objectionable as to be intolerable), it is perfectly sensible and acceptable to seek alternative places to live. This is particularly true if, as in the UK's case, there seems to be no way in which ordinary citizens can stem the tide of mass immigration.

A related side-effect of mass immigration is the phenomenon of 'white flight' (i.e. the migration of indigenous citizens - mostly white - from areas with high levels of immigration into areas with lower levels of immigration). This phenomenon is seldom talked about, but I suspect that it is happening all over the country.

Heyesey
21-09-2008, 11:06
It may be ironic, but it is not irrational. Nor is it hypocritical.


Arguing against immigration while being an immigrant is not hypocritical?

Is this some new definition of the word that we haven't come across before? :huh:

Cyclone
21-09-2008, 11:07
The irony would be when the natives of your new country reject you and complain about the dirty foreigners stealing jobs, or claiming benefits.

Scozzie
21-09-2008, 11:07
yeah but your not really an immigrant unless your a muslim

actually, you may find out you are wrong ("http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration2). Ignorance is no excuse for biogotry.

Heyesey
21-09-2008, 11:09
actually, you may find out you are wrong ("http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration2). Ignorance is no excuse for biogotry.



Quite often people won't realise you're trying to be ironic, mel

Score one.

Alex C.
21-09-2008, 11:10
The irony would be when the natives of your new country reject you and complain about the dirty foreigners stealing jobs, or claiming benefits.

Or not speaking the language :)

happyhippy
21-09-2008, 11:51
The irony would be when the natives of your new country reject you and complain about the dirty foreigners stealing jobs, or claiming benefits.

The real irony would be when you're forcibly repatriated (despite naturalisation) back here, only to be rejected as an economic migrant to the UK, as the quota has been reached.

melthebell
21-09-2008, 12:18
Score one.
heh heh

even after i explained where my post came from too :)

oh well

LordChaverly
21-09-2008, 13:05
Arguing against immigration while being an immigrant is not hypocritical?

Is this some new definition of the word that we haven't come across before? :huh:

The answer is contained in the explanation I gave, which you studiously ignored in favour of a cack-handed attempt at sarcasm which (as is usual in your case) missed its mark by a wide margin. To explain my point again:

It would only be hypocritical if the emigrants were opposed to immigration (into their home countries) per se. There is no evidence that this is the case. As I said earlier, it is the scale and type of immigration, which is resulting in rapid and unprecedented demographic change in many areas of the UK, which such emigrants are objecting to – and which is motivating them to vote with their feet against it. It is typical of those who criticise opponents of mass immigration to make the unwarranted assumption that the latter are opposed to all immigration, from whatever quarter, under any circumstances. I have yet to meet anyone who is.

There is indeed a lot of hypocrisy surrounding the issue of immigration – although most of it appears to emanate from many of its most vocal proponents (e.g. Lib-Dem and Labour MPs and the like, most of whom probably live in affluent suburbs or rural areas far removed from the most direct effects of the mass immigration policies they have supported for decades).

Heyesey
21-09-2008, 13:07
It would only be hypocritical if the emigrants were opposed to immigration (into their home countries) per se.


Which is the exact point of the whole thread. People who emigrate for other reasons, aren't part of this discussion.

Rich
21-09-2008, 13:09
yeah but your not really an immigrant unless your a muslim

FGS your = you're.

Clueless twit! :rant:

An immigrant is someone who comes to another country from his own.

AJ sheffield
21-09-2008, 13:10
Which is the exact point of the whole thread. People who emigrate for other reasons, aren't part of this discussion.

Since when did you dictate the direction that SF's threads take.

Grim Reaper
21-09-2008, 13:11
FGS your = you're.

Clueless twit! :rant:

An immigrant is someone who comes to another country from his own.

Rich what he wrote was irony. He's already explained further down. Before you go off on one, try reading the whole thread.

Fareast
21-09-2008, 13:12
If someone wants to get out of his or her house for a bit of peace and quiet, 'cos the place is filling up with visitors or relatives, I can't see anything unusual, odd, illogical or ironic about that ?

It's a bit disingenuous to simply lump all kinds of emigration/ immigration together as though all cases produced the same effect or had the same cause. If Brits all landed in their millions in some fairly small country, somewhere, and for whatever reason, the locals wanted to be rid of them, then, so be it ! If any Brits behave badly and the host country deports them, well, three cheers for that too.

The fact is that most countries welcome U.K. expats and in my experience, a lot of countries have stringent regulations about who they let in. I'm sure we, too, would have a much more favourable attitude to immigrants, if there was any indication that there was some sort of serious control about who, and how many people, arrived here, and we were more decisive about who we kicked out when they broke the law.

LordChaverly
21-09-2008, 13:17
Which is the exact point of the whole thread. People who emigrate for other reasons, aren't part of this discussion.

This is a ludicrously simplistic interpretation of the question asked in the OP. We all know (or should know) what 'immigration to the UK' has meant in recent years - i.e. it has been unprecedented in its scale and demographic effects. You would, in my view, be very hard put to indeed to find anyone emigrating from these shores because they are opposed to any inward migration.

Heyesey
21-09-2008, 13:18
This is a ludicrously simplistic interpretation of the question asked in the OP.


It's not an interpretation at all. The OP specifically states "emigrates with one reason for doing so.

Maybe you should try reading it?

Heyesey
21-09-2008, 13:18
Since when did you dictate the direction that SF's threads take.

I don't. The OP does. Try reading it.

AJ sheffield
21-09-2008, 13:19
I don't. The OP does. Try reading it.

Try living in the real world.

Alex C.
21-09-2008, 13:21
FGS your = you're.

Clueless twit! :rant:

An immigrant is someone who comes to another country from his own.

Given that it's been explained in several posts that this was basically sarcasm, will you be apologising for the personal insult? Or just not returning to the thread except to label people as trolls?

Mathom
21-09-2008, 13:22
The most ironic thing about it to me is that the people who emigrate because of 'foreigners taking over' aren't the kind of people who have to live next door to the 'foreigners taking over'. The poor cannot emigrate, but they do have to live next door to the new immigrants. Those who can afford to emigrate never seem to live within a 10 mile radius of anyone with a slightly swarthy skin. :suspect:

AJ sheffield
21-09-2008, 13:23
The most ironic thing about it to me is that the people who emigrate because of 'foreigners taking over' aren't the kind of people who have to live next door to the 'foreigners taking over'. The poor cannot emigrate, but they do have to live next door to the new immigrants. Those who can afford to emigrate never seem to live within a 10 mile radius of anyone with a slightly swarthy skin. :suspect:

Thats very true Mathom.

Grandad.Malky
21-09-2008, 13:24
To emigrate with one reason for doing so 'immigration to the uk'?

Maybe Alanis Morisette should squeezed that into her ironic song.

Good point but what you are missing is integration, if I moved abroad the first thing I would want to do is mix with the locals and blend in.

Lets say I went to Canada and went on about real beer, Sunday lunches, Soccer, cricket etc I don’t think I would be well received.

If people want to come here the least thing they can do is try and be British.

LordChaverly
21-09-2008, 13:24
It's not an interpretation at all. The OP specifically states "emigrates with one reason for doing so.

Maybe you should try reading it?

Perhaps you missed the lesson at primary school when you should have been taught that words have meanings. You also must have missed the related lesson that meanings are subject to interpretation and that these are related to contexts.

Strix
21-09-2008, 13:25
You'd have to be a sheep herder or an extra on Lord of the Rings, those are the only jobs they have (or so I heard from an immigrant).Apparently they're crying out for bike technicians too

Heyesey
21-09-2008, 13:28
Perhaps you missed the lesson at primary school when you should have been taught that words have meanings. You also must have missed the related lesson that meanings are subject to interpretation and that these are related to contexts.

The sentence in the OP has one, very clear, very specific meaning. Everybody else can see it, so don't try to make me out to be ignorant just because you can't.

rubydazzler
21-09-2008, 13:29
Can some of us try not bickering for top dog status and just stick to discussing the OP, please! Pretty please, just for once?

With regards to feeling impelled to bring skin colour into the debate, we also seem to have most of Eastern Europe immigrating here at the moment, and they aren't in the slightest little bit swarthy of tone, afaik? :confused:

Apropos of mel's 'ironic' comment and the subsequent fallout, he could try using a smiley to indicate, he can't expect everyone to know his modus operandi, as I pointed out at the start.

Thanks for reading!

Heyesey
21-09-2008, 13:30
Can some of us try not bickering for top dog status and just stick to discussing the OP, please!


I'm trying to, but some people don't seem capable of reading or understanding it. I'm wasting half my time having to tell people what it says, let alone discussing whether or not it's right.

LordChaverly
21-09-2008, 13:30
don't try to make me out to be ignorant

You are making a perfectly good job of this yourself

tab1
21-09-2008, 13:39
Those who can afford to emigrate never seem to live within a 10 mile radius of anyone with a slightly swarthy skin. :suspect:
What an incredibly difficult that job must be too, you can'y but help feel sooooo sorry for the poor BNPers;)

AJ sheffield
21-09-2008, 13:40
You are making a perfectly good job of this yourself

Its not just the ignorance, its the monumental arrogance. Of course in the real world he will be a totally different animal.

Heyesey
21-09-2008, 13:41
For the benefit of those who've forgotten, or who never understood in the first place:

Isn't it ironic to emigrate with one reason for doing so 'immigration to the uk'?


Obviously, if people have other, or multiple, reasons for emigrating the question is irrelevant. Now is there any chance we can actually discuss the OP instead of getting sidetracked?

Kristian
21-09-2008, 13:45
Clueless twit! :rant:


Good attempt at irony there Rich. :)

melthebell
21-09-2008, 14:26
Can some of us try not bickering for top dog status and just stick to discussing the OP, please! Pretty please, just for once?
Apropos of mel's 'ironic' comment and the subsequent fallout, he could try using a smiley to indicate, he can't expect everyone to know his modus operandi, as I pointed out at the start.

aaaaaaaaah
you mean like when they show the likes of trainspotting on US tv, they use subtitles.
i shouldve put pointers up when im using wit, humour, irony, sarcasm......i gets ya :)

here for the clueless idiots is a humour pointer

:D

rubydazzler
21-09-2008, 14:43
aaaaaaaaah you mean [...]i shouldve put pointers up when im using wit, humour, irony, sarcasm......i gets ya. here for the clueless idiots is a humour pointer :D
See, now you're getting it! Doesn't that feel soooo much better? :D

Mi code for irony/sarcasm = :rolleyes:
Mi code for unsure/conspiracy = :huh: or :suspect:
Mi code for joke/tongue in cheek = ;) or :P


I think ...

melthebell
21-09-2008, 14:45
See, now you're getting it! Doesn't that feel soooo much better? :D

Mi code for irony/sarcasm = :rolleyes:
Mi code for unsure/conspiracy = :huh: or :suspect:
Mi code for joke/tongue in cheek = ;) or :P


I think ...

thankyou rubydazzler
i love you ;)

errrrrrrrrrrrrrm

cloudybay
21-09-2008, 14:53
Now there is real irony.................:hihi:

rubydazzler
21-09-2008, 17:42
thankyou rubydazzler
i love you ;) errrrrrrrrrrrrrm
I love you too .... :suspect:

:rolleyes:

carmencarter
21-09-2008, 19:04
heh heh

even after i explained where my post came from too :)

oh well

Well, I understood the tone of your post the first time:)
And I know exactly where you're coming from: as a Frenchwoman I am an immigrant.
I've lost count of pupils who have moaned about immigration( meaning people of a different colour and religion) ; when I point out that I am an immigrant they look really shocked: it's obviously not occured to them.
They always start of with " well, it's not the same, because....you're French" ( meaning white I guess:rolleyes:)

melthebell
21-09-2008, 19:09
Well, I understood the tone of your post the first time:)
And I know exactly where you're coming from: as a Frenchwoman I am an immigrant.
I've lost count of pupils who have moaned about immigration( meaning people of a different colour and religion) ; when I point out that I am an immigrant they look really shocked: it's obviously not occured to them.
They always start of with " well, it's not the same, because....you're French" ( meaning white I guess:rolleyes:)
indeed

you dont count :P

errrrrrrrrrrrrm


edit: but while we're on the subject, do you get worried, angry, fed up, scared when people bang on about immigration, immigrants all the time?

rubydazzler
21-09-2008, 19:18
And I know exactly where you're coming from: as a Frenchwoman I am an immigrant. I know quite a few English people who've gone to live in France, and I was wondering how the French people react both to them and to the numbers of other immigrants and asylum seekers? Do you keep in touch with relatives or friends over there to give us an idea of the reactions?

I've got a friend who's lived and worked in Paris for the last 25 years and he says the French natives still pretend they can't understand his name or what he's saying :hihi:

Cyclone
21-09-2008, 19:55
The answer is contained in the explanation I gave, which you studiously ignored in favour of a cack-handed attempt at sarcasm which (as is usual in your case) missed its mark by a wide margin. To explain my point again:

It would only be hypocritical if the emigrants were opposed to immigration (into their home countries) per se. There is no evidence that this is the case. As I said earlier, it is the scale and type of immigration, which is resulting in rapid and unprecedented demographic change in many areas of the UK, which such emigrants are objecting to – and which is motivating them to vote with their feet against it. It is typical of those who criticise opponents of mass immigration to make the unwarranted assumption that the latter are opposed to all immigration, from whatever quarter, under any circumstances. I have yet to meet anyone who is.

There is indeed a lot of hypocrisy surrounding the issue of immigration – although most of it appears to emanate from many of its most vocal proponents (e.g. Lib-Dem and Labour MPs and the like, most of whom probably live in affluent suburbs or rural areas far removed from the most direct effects of the mass immigration policies they have supported for decades).

Actually it would still be hypocritical if they contributed to 'mass' immigration to somewhere else, where the natives were equally concerned about the rapid demographic changes being imposed on their country...

Cyclone
21-09-2008, 19:57
The most ironic thing about it to me is that the people who emigrate because of 'foreigners taking over' aren't the kind of people who have to live next door to the 'foreigners taking over'. The poor cannot emigrate, but they do have to live next door to the new immigrants. Those who can afford to emigrate never seem to live within a 10 mile radius of anyone with a slightly swarthy skin. :suspect:

How does that compare to the 1950's and 60's? policy of shipping people to Australia and giving them £10 to go. That was certainly open to the poor, and many people took advantage of it (I know it's not strictly relevant, as it's historical), but it shows that emigration isn't always closed to the poor. All it actually takes is the desire to up sticks and go.

Cyclone
21-09-2008, 19:59
Good point but what you are missing is integration, if I moved abroad the first thing I would want to do is mix with the locals and blend in.

Lets say I went to Canada and went on about real beer, Sunday lunches, Soccer, cricket etc I don’t think I would be well received.

If people want to come here the least thing they can do is try and be British.

Maybe you would. But if you check out the expat situation in Spain (as one example) I think you'll find that most Brits don't.
Canada is of course very easy to integrate with, apart from driving on the wrong side it's practically the same culture as here. They'd probably love to talk to you about those things, they seemed like a pretty friendly bunch, and whilst you'll struggle to get a real ale, you'll find plenty of tasty locally brewed beers.
Do you know that Toronto seems to have stolen half it's names from Sheffield, you can use the Parkway and go to Don Valley! It's almost like you've never left.

Cyclone
21-09-2008, 20:00
Can some of us try not bickering for top dog status and just stick to discussing the OP, please! Pretty please, just for once?

With regards to feeling impelled to bring skin colour into the debate, we also seem to have most of Eastern Europe immigrating here at the moment, and they aren't in the slightest little bit swarthy of tone, afaik? :confused:
I heard that they're all going home again, at least the ones who never intended to stay, as the pound has dropped so badly against the euro and the job market is crashing so there's no reason to stay.

Cyclone
21-09-2008, 20:03
I was an ethnic minority in the pub within my group yesterday. It's okay though, they didn't do anything mean to me, although they did make non pc talk for a while about each other.

LordChaverly
21-09-2008, 21:36
Actually it would still be hypocritical if they contributed to 'mass' immigration to somewhere else, where the natives were equally concerned about the rapid demographic changes being imposed on their country...

It all hinges on the 'if'. It seems far more likely that white British emigrants unhappy with the demographic changes wrought by mass immigration into the UK will seek out places where white Europeans are still in the majority (as they are, of course, still in the UK, but in Canada or Australia there is a lot more land and population densities are much lower). In such cases, the emigrants would not be contributing to qualitative demographic change, but rather reinforcing the demographic status quo - incidentally, ethnic and cultural homogeneity were the primary purposes of the 'White Australia' policy which used to be in force down under. Canada and Australia are now, of course, much more ethnically diverse than they were - but rightly or wrongly, it is probably the case that the emigrants we are referring to probably think that ethnic tensions and the prospect of serious ethnic conflict are less likely in these countries than in the UK.

Fareast
22-09-2008, 00:34
People on this thread have touched upon the question of attitudes, i.e.the attitudes of the host population, in a particular country, towards their immigrants. It's obviously a very complex situation, in that, for example, some French citizens will welcome the arrival of Brits, whilst others will cold-shoulder them.......etc.....etc...

Surely, if Brits anywhere, were causing political, social, demographic or economic problems on a big scale, there would either be a large unofficial mass of voices wanting to get rid of them ...or they would get kicked out officially by whatever government.....and rightly so ! However, I haven't seen one shred of evidence that the majority of people in Australia, New Zealand....et al....feel like this, nor that any government has wanted or demanded that all Brits get out.

There's an obvious reason for this, in my opinion. Either the host country wanted immigrants like Brits to arrive in the first place [ after fairly stringent checks in many cases ] or when they arrive, willy-nilly, they cause so few serious problems that the general population accept them willingly. At any rate, that is how it seems to be.

Now, in the U.K. there seems to be a majority of people who are either worried or very worried about mass immigration into the U.K.-----either at the present time or in the last 30 years. Some are so concerned that they've upped sticks and got out. Does this mean that the average Brit is narrow-minded, bigoted and xenophobic, vis-a-vis people from other countries ?

If so, that would be strange because not too long ago, we had a reputation, internationally, for being tolerant, fair-minded and compassionate ! I wonder what has caused this shift in opinion ? It could just be that a hell of a lot of people ARE genuinely concerned that uncontrolled, mass immigration, as practiced in the last 30 years in the U.K. is changing the face of the U.K. for the worse. This has nothing to do with colour ----to wit---the same people are worried about white European immigration.

Immigration IS complex and each country 's people will react in various ways. The simple answer, I suppose is that the ' proof of the pudding is in the eating '. If immigration is not an acute problem, people won't kick up a fuss about it ; if it is, they will .

carmencarter
22-09-2008, 06:22
indeed

you dont count :P

errrrrrrrrrrrrm


edit: but while we're on the subject, do you get worried, angry, fed up, scared when people bang on about immigration, immigrants all the time?

Not really, no.
The people who moan are a minority as far as I'm concerned, and human nature is such that, wherever you are, France or England, people will sometimes say " the French/English/ North Africans are this, that and the other, but of course, YOU,.......(add name), are different, you're a friend of ours and you have made an effort to integrate, etc."And I am pretty sure that they mean it: they just don't realise that most people have nothing to do with stereotypes.

Of course some people are worried about immigrants in France: I actually find British people far more tolerant in general.

I actually heard a few times " oh yes, some British people are settling in here now, well I'd rather have them around than Muslims" :loopy:

Some of them don't like it, sure. You have to expect that kind of reaction everywhere.

Fareast
22-09-2008, 08:21
As to the question about how many people in the U.K. are ' worried ' or ' very worried ' about immigration in all its aspects, a lot of polls seem to indicate that the vast majority ARE worried. Even the politicians are now making comments about it !! ----so, that proves something ! [ They see a vote catcher ? ] The questions that spring to mind are 1] Have we as a nation, in the last 30 years suddenly become more bigoted, xenophobic.....etc....for no real reason.....or is there a reason to be worried ? 2] What good or bad effects does the emigration of Brits to other countries have on those countries ? And how do these countries react in respect of the general population and/or government policy.

LordChaverly
22-09-2008, 09:09
People on this thread have touched upon the question of attitudes, i.e.the attitudes of the host population, in a particular country, towards their immigrants. It's obviously a very complex situation, in that, for example, some French citizens will welcome the arrival of Brits, whilst others will cold-shoulder them.......etc.....etc...

Surely, if Brits anywhere, were causing political, social, demographic or economic problems on a big scale, there would either be a large unofficial mass of voices wanting to get rid of them ...or they would get kicked out officially by whatever government.....and rightly so ! However, I haven't seen one shred of evidence that the majority of people in Australia, New Zealand....et al....feel like this, nor that any government has wanted or demanded that all Brits get out.

There's an obvious reason for this, in my opinion. Either the host country wanted immigrants like Brits to arrive in the first place [ after fairly stringent checks in many cases ] or when they arrive, willy-nilly, they cause so few serious problems that the general population accept them willingly. At any rate, that is how it seems to be.

Now, in the U.K. there seems to be a majority of people who are either worried or very worried about mass immigration into the U.K.-----either at the present time or in the last 30 years. Some are so concerned that they've upped sticks and got out. Does this mean that the average Brit is narrow-minded, bigoted and xenophobic, vis-a-vis people from other countries ?

If so, that would be strange because not too long ago, we had a reputation, internationally, for being tolerant, fair-minded and compassionate ! I wonder what has caused this shift in opinion ? It could just be that a hell of a lot of people ARE genuinely concerned that uncontrolled, mass immigration, as practiced in the last 30 years in the U.K. is changing the face of the U.K. for the worse. This has nothing to do with colour ----to wit---the same people are worried about white European immigration.

Immigration IS complex and each country 's people will react in various ways. The simple answer, I suppose is that the ' proof of the pudding is in the eating '. If immigration is not an acute problem, people won't kick up a fuss about it ; if it is, they will .

Very good post, Fareast, as usual. Your posts are a beacon of good sense and wisdom on here. :thumbsup:

Fareast
22-09-2008, 09:20
Thanks, Lord C. and touche ! However, we've tempted fate here----wait for the backlash !

cressida
22-09-2008, 14:16
Thanks, Lord C. and touche ! However, we've tempted fate here----wait for the backlash !

No backlash from me F.E. I heard that we are the most populated country recently, and that is worrying, also that the immigrants that are here would like to limit immigration

Fareast
23-09-2008, 08:50
Well, Cressida, no backlash from anyobody, in fact ! What a surprise ! My theory is, that all the opposition in a fit of remorse and guilt, for having goes at our moderate comments about immigration, have gone off and joined the BNP.

Now, that would be ironic ! Actually, I find it very difficult to imagine some of the posters on this topic, swaggering around in Enoch Powell T-shirts. Who knows though ? The world is a ' funny old place ' as a famous woman once remarked .

cressida
23-09-2008, 09:07
Well, Cressida, no backlash from anyobody, in fact ! What a surprise ! My theory is, that all the opposition in a fit of remorse and guilt, for having goes at our moderate comments about immigration, have gone off and joined the BNP.

Now, that would be ironic ! Actually, I find it very difficult to imagine some of the posters on this topic, swaggering around in Enoch Powell T-shirts. Who knows though ? The world is a ' funny old place ' as a famous woman once remarked .
who was that woman ?

Fareast
23-09-2008, 09:43
She was always well-dressed, an icon of S.Yorks.'s mining community, had a sort of a Jeeves-type husband, had a degree in Inhumanity & Genocide, fought a pitched battle on a memorable occasion in Parliament Square with a man called ' Arthur ' and k.o.'d him, mother of twins [ including a lovely, charismatic son ], lived in Finchley but has now retired to a council flat in Barnsley where she goes under the name of Mrs. Froggat-Birchem.

Enough clues there ! And, no, it's not Shirley Williams, nor Cherie Blair.

boyfriday
23-09-2008, 10:00
There's an obvious reason for this, in my opinion. Either the host country wanted immigrants like Brits to arrive in the first place [ after fairly stringent checks in many cases ] or when they arrive, willy-nilly, they cause so few serious problems that the general population accept them willingly. At any rate, that is how it seems to be.


You give 2 reasons, but perhaps there's a 3rd one? Other countries just aren't as colour/immigrant obsessed as the British.

Immigrants were welcomed by the government to come here in the 50's & 60's..to fill skills and labour shortages, that didn't stop a lot of the indigenous people objecting to it quite vociferously and discriminating against newcomers well before any problems became apparent.

*nemo*
23-09-2008, 11:07
The answer is contained in the explanation I gave, which you studiously ignored in favour of a cack-handed attempt at sarcasm which (as is usual in your case) missed its mark by a wide margin. To explain my point again:

It would only be hypocritical if the emigrants were opposed to immigration (into their home countries) per se. There is no evidence that this is the case. As I said earlier, it is the scale and type of immigration, which is resulting in rapid and unprecedented demographic change in many areas of the UK, which such emigrants are objecting to – and which is motivating them to vote with their feet against it. It is typical of those who criticise opponents of mass immigration to make the unwarranted assumption that the latter are opposed to all immigration, from whatever quarter, under any circumstances. I have yet to meet anyone who is.

There is indeed a lot of hypocrisy surrounding the issue of immigration – although most of it appears to emanate from many of its most vocal proponents (e.g. Lib-Dem and Labour MPs and the like, most of whom probably live in affluent suburbs or rural areas far removed from the most direct effects of the mass immigration policies they have supported for decades).

Very good post :thumbsup:

*nemo*
23-09-2008, 11:10
Arguing against immigration while being an immigrant is not hypocritical?

Is this some new definition of the word that we haven't come across before? :huh:


Like another poster said it's uncontrolled immigration that's a problem for some people (including me).

I'd be off like a shot if all my family would/could come too.

LordChaverly
23-09-2008, 12:49
You give 2 reasons, but perhaps there's a 3rd one? Other countries just aren't as colour/immigrant obsessed as the British.



I don't think that this third reason holds water. Opposition to immigration, particularly if it is viewed as having significant demographic consequences for the host society, is a very common phenomenon and examples of it can be found all over the world (not least in 'third world' countries as well as in developed economies). The reality is that most people (of whatever ethnic or cultural background) don't want to see the areas and the societies in which they have been born and raised rapidly transformed in this way, particularly when the consequences of this transformation are so uncertain - and by no means always for the better.

As the subject is irony (in relation to immigration), let me give another example:

Wasn't it a teeny weeny bit ironic that, when the UK was allowing virtually unrestricted immigration from Commonwealth countries, most of these countries imposed very strict immigration controls on British people wishing to emigrate to them? The British Nationality Act of 1948 (surely the stupidest piece of legislation ever enacted, because it allowed anyone from the Imperial/Commonwealth territories to enter the UK - at the time meaning a combined population of 800 million!) was not reciprocal, because it was not dependent on Commonwealth countries passing similar legislation - and of course they never did. Indeed, many of these countries (including the those in the West Indies, India and Pakistan) made it very difficult if not impossible for British people to emigrate to their territories. In other words, it was a one way traffic, not only de facto, but also de jure.

At least the immigration we have experienced from the EU in recent years has been based on reciprocal immigration rights and responsibilities - in other words, I can at least go to live and work in Poland if I so wish, whereas I would not been allowed to emigrate to the countries mentioned above during the era of untrammelled Commonwealth immigration

boyfriday
23-09-2008, 15:07
I don't think that this third reason holds water. Opposition to immigration, particularly if it is viewed as having significant demographic consequences for the host society, is a very common phenomenon and examples of it can be found all over the world (not least in 'third world' countries as well as in developed economies). The reality is that most people (of whatever ethnic or cultural background) don't want to see the areas and the societies in which they have been born and raised rapidly transformed in this way, particularly when the consequences of this transformation are so uncertain - and by no means always for the better.


I was responding to a very specific point made by fareast, who was basically implying that British migrants are welcome in any country they choose to move to, compared to immigrants to this country who aren't, because they create problems. History of British movements abroad have often involved conflict, so I guess the indigenous peoples have not been as entirely accommodating as was suggested.

boyfriday
23-09-2008, 15:09
Like another poster said it's uncontrolled immigration that's a problem for some people (including me).

I'd be off like a shot if all my family would/could come too.


..there is no uncontrolled immigration into this country.

upholder
23-09-2008, 15:24
..there is no uncontrolled immigration into this country.

That might have been a reference to the 'open-door policy' on EU immigration as Britain was one of only three countries in 2004 to give all new EU citizens automatic work rights.

"Mass immigration is the 'greatest challenge' facing European governments at present.", sounds a bit Enoch Powellesque doesn't it?

In fact it was a comment from John Reid attempting to close the stable door after the horse had bolted (straight to the UK).

mr contrite
23-09-2008, 15:35
So emigrants are opposed to immigration? surely i remember on a previous thread people using statistics to show that immigration was not the major reason for emigration, if this was the case it shows that the vast majority opposed to immigration are NOT emigrating, or thinking of emigrating.

Surely that destroys the reason for this thread?

LordChaverly
23-09-2008, 15:36
..there is no uncontrolled immigration into this country.

Well, lets just say then that our 'controls' don't seem to be working very well (and have not done so for several decades, which in my view constitutes a major failure of policy by successive governments - although to be fair, some of these have a far worse record in this regard than others (e.g. the Labour governments since 1997).

Cyclone
23-09-2008, 19:19
So emigrants are opposed to immigration? surely i remember on a previous thread people using statistics to show that immigration was not the major reason for emigration, if this was the case it shows that the vast majority opposed to immigration are NOT emigrating, or thinking of emigrating.

Surely that destroys the reason for this thread?

Not really. It can be ironic if just one person emigrates due to immigration.

Cyclone
23-09-2008, 19:19
That might have been a reference to the 'open-door policy' on EU immigration as Britain was one of only three countries in 2004 to give all new EU citizens automatic work rights.

"Mass immigration is the 'greatest challenge' facing European governments at present.", sounds a bit Enoch Powellesque doesn't it?

In fact it was a comment from John Reid attempting to close the stable door after the horse had bolted (straight to the UK).

Seems unlikley though, since Muslim immigrants are the current rant de jour, and there aren't yet any primarily Muslim EU countries.

Bago
23-09-2008, 21:52
If someone wants to get out of his or her house for a bit of peace and quiet, 'cos the place is filling up with visitors or relatives, I can't see anything unusual, odd, illogical or ironic about that ?

It's a bit disingenuous to simply lump all kinds of emigration/ immigration together as though all cases produced the same effect or had the same cause. If Brits all landed in their millions in some fairly small country, somewhere, and for whatever reason, the locals wanted to be rid of them, then, so be it ! If any Brits behave badly and the host country deports them, well, three cheers for that too.

The fact is that most countries welcome U.K. expats and in my experience, a lot of countries have stringent regulations about who they let in. I'm sure we, too, would have a much more favourable attitude to immigrants, if there was any indication that there was some sort of serious control about who, and how many people, arrived here, and we were more decisive about who we kicked out when they broke the law.
As an ethnic minority (who once was an immigrant into this country too), I can say for certain that this is not always the case. What may be true is that, the people who moan about this cannot and could not do very much about it. A lot of people just accept it and move on. What I also think is that, there did not used to be a medium like the Internet to allow you to see the whole bigger picture of how immigration affect the indigenous group of people. If indeed, you can call the people already living there to be "indigenous" to begin with, when there has already been historical migration of one form and another.

You are indeed very mistaken if you think that many actually welcome UK ex-pats. A lot of ex-pat people lived on ex-pat wages, which is always higher than what the local earns. This kind of reality is most unwanted and unwelcomed. Then there are cultures like, the British drinking culture, and the rowdiness, which a lot of European tranquil cities or coastal towns would not have wanted. Tenerife is one of these infamous places. I once saw a sign which told the British people to get lost on a graffiti'd wall. They bring in the drunks, and make the locals lose their jobs, as they would prefer to deal with English speaking individuals instead to create some kind of expat paradise. Maybe, just maybe because the British tend to do this, they expect other migrants in this country to automacatically do this.

Yet, people like myself who have assimilated into the society is only to be told that I am a mere "immigrant" as well. Well ! I cannot believe what I read sometimes. I am so glad to be a part of the community!

*nemo*
24-09-2008, 11:59
..there is no uncontrolled immigration into this country.

exactly that's the problem or is that a double nagative? :huh: