With the clocks due to go back 1 hour this weekend I just wanted to ask what peoples thoughts are about this.

Should we leave the clocks alone, if so what would be the avantages/disadvantages?

I've seen it quoted somewhere that a couple of hundreds lives at least will be lost due to the clocks going back. Where they get these kind of precise figures from is beyond me.

Originally posted by Lickszz
With the clocks due to go back 1 hour this weekend I just wanted to ask what are peoples thoughts were about this.

Should we leave the clocks alone, if so what would be the avantages/disadvantages?

I've seen it quoted somewhere that a couple of hundreds lives at least will be lost due to the clocks going back. Where they get these kind of precise figures from is beyond me.

I quite like the clocks changing, especially from BST to GMT like this weekend where you get an extra hour in bed. It gives people something to talk about, so leave it as it is I say.

8) Nah Den Ace......

The clocks always went back or forward one hour when I was a kid, and it never did me any harm. If this practice was to go the same way as National Service, Corporal Punishment and Olde English Flavoured Spangles, can you begin to imagine the detrimental effect that this would have on the moral fibre of our nation's youth?

It just doesn't bare thinking about!

Regards,

Spacehopper.

Leave the clocks alone I say.

It's depressing enough when it starts to go dark early, but then all of a sudden to lose an extra hour is horrendous.

I hate winter. I hate snow. I hate cold. I hate darkness. Bleurgh.

Originally posted by purplepippa

It's depressing enough when it starts to go dark early, but then all of a sudden to lose an extra hour is horrendous.



But if the clocks didn't go back to GMT, the mornings would be even darker. E.g. It is still dark at 7am now, but after Saturday, this will be equivalent to being dark at 6am. After Saturday 7am will be equivalent to 8am is now, i.e. lighter. Do you understand now?

GMT is a world standard. It seems a shame that we have to lose it for a few short months to BST.

Wasn't BST first introduced to provide longer hours of daylight in the summer months for farmers and land workers?

Originally posted by t020
But if the clocks didn't go back to GMT, the mornings would be even darker. E.g. It is still dark at 7am now, but after Saturday, this will be equivalent to being dark at 6am. After Saturday 7am will be equivalent to 8am is now, i.e. lighter. Do you understand now?

Who cares if it is dark at 7am? Surely it would be better for all to have the afternoons and evenings as light as possible? During winter it gets dark by 4pm when much more people (especially schoolkids) are up and around than at 7am.

Originally posted by alchresearch
Who cares if it is dark at 7am? Surely it would be better for all to have the afternoons and evenings as light as possible? During winter it gets dark by 4pm when much more people (especially schoolkids) are up and around than at 7am.

If you cared to follow the thread then you would see that I was clearing up an issue raised by purplepippa, who seemed to be under the wrong impression that turning the clocks back an hour makes it darker in the mornings - she said she hates dark mornings as it is without turning back an hour too. Also, 7am was purely an example. Plenty of kids walk to school at, say, 8.30am, which if the clocks didn't go back this weekend, would still be very dark in a month or so. Thanks to the clocks going back though, 8.30am should be light throughout the winter.

Originally posted by t020
But if the clocks didn't go back to GMT, the mornings would be even darker. E.g. It is still dark at 7am now, but after Saturday, this will be equivalent to being dark at 6am. After Saturday 7am will be equivalent to 8am is now, i.e. lighter. Do you understand now?

Actually t020 I understood in the first place. I never mentioned mornings.

I don't care how light or dark it is at 7am. It's the evenings that bother me.

Originally posted by t020
If you cared to follow the thread then you would see that I was clearing up an issue raised by purplepippa, who seemed to be under the wrong impression that turning the clocks back an hour makes it darker in the mornings - she said she hates dark mornings as it is without turning back an hour too. Also, 7am was purely an example. Plenty of kids walk to school at, say, 8.30am, which if the clocks didn't go back this weekend, would still be very dark in a month or so. Thanks to the clocks going back though, 8.30am should be light throughout the winter.

Will you read what I wrote before making out that I'm stupid??

I never mentioned mornings!

Originally posted by alchresearch
Wasn't BST first introduced to provide longer hours of daylight in the summer months for farmers and land workers?

Yup it was. Introduced during 1939 in WWII to confuse the bosch and provide extra hours of daylight to grow food. Never had it before then, and I think we should get rid of it. You wouldn't lose an hour or gain one ever again... much simpler and lighter in afternoons in winter - I wouldn't have to walk home in the dark as much!!! :cool:

Will you read what I wrote before making out that I'm stupid??

I'm not sure he's capable of doing that Purplepippa. He hasn't made you look stupid either, only himself. As ever.

Originally posted by purplepippa
Will you read what I wrote before making out that I'm stupid??

I never mentioned mornings!
He didn't make you look stupid. He read your posting too quickly and misunderstood. He made a mistake and one in no way reflecting badly on you. I expect he would have apologised to the forum (not to you because he has not criticised you in any way) once he realised but if he finds himself under attack he's less likely to. It doesn't help anyone on here if the slightest mistake turns into an excuse for a slanging match.

Can't we all just work on the principle that 99% of the time, regular posters in particular aren't out to put people down, the whole system relies on good-will and cool-heads.

If we are just going to keep reacting like schoolkids then, in my book, the forum is a dead-duck.

I dont know if the following is true or not:

Like the USA we also have different time zones, Scotland is always ahead of england and wales because it goes darker at least 30mins before us.

Is that true?

Originally posted by Lickszz
I've seen it quoted somewhere that a couple of hundreds lives at least will be lost due to the clocks going back. Where they get these kind of precise figures from is beyond me.
The figures may be from the government road safety research labs and they said in respect of a suggestion that we switch to double summertime (i.e. put the clocks forward by a second hour )
(Handard report extract):

Mr. Jamieson: The potential road safety implications of a change to Single Double Summertime have been previously investigated. A Government commissioned report by the Transport Research Laboratory (TRL), published in October 1998, concluded that if clocks were put forward a further hour over both the periods i.e. October to March and March to October, thereby making the evenings lighter, there could be a saving of over 100 deaths per year. The potential savings have not been mentioned again since then. But we are therefore aware of the potential road safety benefits. However, a wide variety of issues would have to be considered very carefully if a move to Single Double Summertime was to be considered, of which casualty savings is just one.


We did experiment with permanent summertime 1968-71 which did save lives but was not popular with the public.

...This confirms earlier research which showed that the 1968/71 experiment, when British Standard Time (GMT + 1) was employed all year round (the clocks were advanced in March 1968 and not put back until October 1971) saved around 2,500 deaths and serious injuries each year of the trial period. Although there would be more casualties in the morning during the Winter, these would be outweighed by the reduction in casualties due to an hour of extra daylight in the Winter evenings, producing a net reduction. Extra evening daylight protects vulnerable road users like children, the elderly, cyclists and motorcyclists, making them more visible to motorists. There are more accidents in the afternoon rush hour during the week than in the morning. Motorists are more tired after a day at work and concentration levels are lower. Children tend to go straight to school in the morning but may deviate in their journey home, making stops, thus increasing their exposure to the road environment. Social trips are generally made in the afternoon/evening, often on the way home from school/work.

The fact is that the further you are from the equator the greater the summer/winter day length fluctuation and a great many of the more northerly countries have some kind of clock adjustment to compensate.

Originally posted by SheffieldLive
I dont know if the following is true or not:

Like the USA we also have different time zones, Scotland is always ahead of england and wales because it goes darker at least 30mins before us.

Is that true?
Kind of. Before the railways Cornwall was about 20 minutes before London because mid-day was the time when the sun is highest in the sky and that depends how far east or west you are.
When the railways made travel so much faster and easier, changing your watch every time you got off a train was silly and the railway companies set the standard by their GMT related timetables.
In places like the USA, being so far from east to west standardisation would be silly too, with 4 hours difference across the continent so they split the country into time zones - 4 vertical strips each of which runs to a different clock.

Yeah but we don't need to adjust our clocks anymore. It doesn't have any genuine practical implications, except hours of daylight being earlier or later. And scotland and wales don't have different timezones, as timezones are decided by latitude not longitude... which means that north/south doesn't make any difference just east to west (the axis of the sun)

Originally posted by SheffieldLive
I dont know if the following is true or not:

Like the USA we also have different time zones, Scotland is always ahead of england and wales because it goes darker at least 30mins before us.

Is that true?

Yes that is true about Scotland. it does go darker sooner than the South of England

Originally posted by robh
The figures may be from the government road safety research labs and they said in respect of a suggestion that we switch to double summertime (i.e. put the clocks forward by a second hour )
(Handard report extract):

Mr. Jamieson: The potential road safety implications of a change to Single Double Summertime have been previously investigated. A Government commissioned report by the Transport Research Laboratory (TRL), published in October 1998, concluded that if clocks were put forward a further hour over both the periods i.e. October to March and March to October, thereby making the evenings lighter, there could be a saving of over 100 deaths per year. The potential savings have not been mentioned again since then. But we are therefore aware of the potential road safety benefits. However, a wide variety of issues would have to be considered very carefully if a move to Single Double Summertime was to be considered, of which casualty savings is just one.


We did experiment with permanent summertime 1968-71 which did save lives but was not popular with the public.

...This confirms earlier research which showed that the 1968/71 experiment, when British Standard Time (GMT + 1) was employed all year round (the clocks were advanced in March 1968 and not put back until October 1971) saved around 2,500 deaths and serious injuries each year of the trial period. Although there would be more casualties in the morning during the Winter, these would be outweighed by the reduction in casualties due to an hour of extra daylight in the Winter evenings, producing a net reduction. Extra evening daylight protects vulnerable road users like children, the elderly, cyclists and motorcyclists, making them more visible to motorists. There are more accidents in the afternoon rush hour during the week than in the morning. Motorists are more tired after a day at work and concentration levels are lower. Children tend to go straight to school in the morning but may deviate in their journey home, making stops, thus increasing their exposure to the road environment. Social trips are generally made in the afternoon/evening, often on the way home from school/work.

The fact is that the further you are from the equator the greater the summer/winter day length fluctuation and a great many of the more northerly countries have some kind of clock adjustment to compensate.

I expect that these figures I had heard maybe somewhat out of date then.

Wasn't double British summer time introduced during the war to save on fuel but they called it European time? - Less lighting needed during normal working hours. Then discontinued to please Scottish farmers or more accurately, their cows.

Originally posted by Agent Dan
Yup it was. Introduced during 1939 in WWII to confuse the bosch and provide extra hours of daylight to grow food. Never had it before then, and I think we should get rid of it. You wouldn't lose an hour or gain one ever again... much simpler and lighter in afternoons in winter - I wouldn't have to walk home in the dark as much!!! :cool:

Actually, it was first introduced in 1916, during World War I.:)

Why do they call it daylight saving? I spend at least half an hour twice a year putting all the clocks back/forward.

And why do they advertise watches as being accurate to 1/1000th second? How can anybody set them that acurately? Even the ones that rely on satellite signals cannot possibly guarantee that accuracy given that the signal takes a finite time to reach the receiver?

Any horologists out there who could explain?

Am I right in thinking that your not supposed to alter the clocks until 2am this Sunday not a minute before or after, or you will be cheating! :o ;)

Originally posted by SheffieldLive
I dont know if the following is true or not:

Like the USA we also have different time zones, Scotland is always ahead of england and wales because it goes darker at least 30mins before us.

Is that true?
:loopy:
I'm sorry but that seems like the most stupid thing to say ever! Of course it gets dark at different times in different places!

In Scotland, nights are longer during the winter and days are longer during the summer. You have to remember that during the winter at the north pole it's dark 24 hours a day.

Originally posted by max Why do they call it daylight saving? I spend at least half an hour twice a year putting all the clocks back/forward.That's why you have to do it at 2:00 a.m. so as not to waste any daylight ;)
Originally posted by max And why do they advertise watches as being accurate to 1/1000th second? How can anybody set them that acurately? Two reasons - depending on just what the 1/1000 second claim relates to:

1) They are talking about the possibility for a watch to gain or lose time. Mechanical clocks and watches in particular might only be accurate within a few seconds a day so after a few weeks they could drift off by a few minutes and need adjusting.

2) A digital watch will often include timing functions so you can use it as a stopwatch. Of course the human reaction time in pressing the stop/start button is far less accurate that 1/1000 second but for the purchaser there's the "mine's better than yours" factor to consider.

Apologies for giving a sensible (hopefully?) answer to what may be merely a whimsical query!
What annoys me is clocks that you can only adjust in one direction. My cooker has a 24 hour clock and to put it BACK an hour you actually need to put it FORWARD 23 hours by switching it to "fast" mode which is 60 times normal - so it takes 23 minutes - so of course I leave it to get on with it and remember to come back about 24 minutes later - so I have to leave it another 23 mins - by the time I've got it right its time to put the clocks forward again!

You may be interested in Lewis Carroll's 'slant' on clocks:

http://home.earthlink.net/~lfdean/carroll/puzzles/clocks.html

;)

Originally posted by SheffieldLive
I dont know if the following is true or not:

Like the USA we also have different time zones, Scotland is always ahead of england and wales because it goes darker at least 30mins before us.

Is that true?

Sort of.

Originally posted by Sidla
I'm sorry but that seems like the most stupid thing to say ever! Of course it gets dark at different times in different places!

In Scotland, nights are longer during the winter and days are longer during the summer. You have to remember that during the winter at the north pole it's dark 24 hours a day.

That is pretty much true wherever you live, although the differences in daylength across the year are less pronounced the closer to the equator you are.

In fact it could be said to be the very definition of Summer and Winter, so Australians end up celebrating Christmas more or less on their Summer Solstice.

I think what SheffieldLive means is the longitudinal differences in time.

These are most easily compared at the equinoxes, when the day length is, to all extents and purposes, the same worldwide - i.e the terminator is perpendicular to the equator.

Solar midday (when the sun is at its highest, directly overhead on the equator) does obviously occur at different times due to the earth's rotation, so East anglia is in a different time zone to Cornwall.

But the all time zone differences are banded together in bundles of 15 degrees of circumference, each band equalling one hour difference.

Before GMT and the time signal, you really would have to adjust your watch to local time when you travelled from Anglesey to Lindisfarne, because the clocks would be set from the sun and not the pips/dropping ball/whatever.

The fact that the sun would rise earlier and set later in, say Inverness, would be dependent on the latitude, but the actual time would be dependent on the longitude.

Originally posted by Lewis Carroll
Which is better, a clock that is right only once a year, or a clock that is right twice every day? "The latter," you reply, "unquestionably." Very good, now attend.
Nah, Rephrase the question - "Which is better, a clock that goes and can give you some indication of the time, provided you take the trouble to set it right every few days, and a broken clock?"

"The former" you reply, "indubitably".

"Oh, ok then".

Originally posted by caprice
I'm not sure he's capable of doing that Purplepippa. He hasn't made you look stupid either, only himself. As ever.

Boohoo. Pippa said "dark early", which could quite easily be taken as being in the morning since this is *early*. I also said that I THOUGHT that this is what she meant, I never said it with 100% certaintity.

CRUCIFY me for one minor mistake (which could've been interpreted either way). I will remember this the next time you slip up.

Why is it that almost every thread topic just ends up as an argument over who is right and who is wrong? The top posts in this section and the Sheffield Chat one all involve petty squabbling.

Originally posted by alchresearch
Why is it that almost every thread topic just ends up as an argument over who is right and who is wrong? The top posts in this section and the Sheffield Chat one all involve petty squabbling.

Probably because the nights are drawing in and everyone is getting crotchety.

By Christmas we'll all be either:

a)brimming with the milk of human kindness

or

b)transformed into howling gorgons of pedantry and point scoring.

I will be trying for a) but no guarantees!
:) :) :)
[edited for split infinitives :P)

On the shortest day it gets light in the morning at around 8.20/30 even later if the weather is not good, so if we didn't put back the clocks that would become 9.30. Do you really want to got to work in the dark every morning for a few months?
And are the kids not already difficult enough to get up in the morning without it being dark, i know how hard i find it myself to get up.

You would still come home in the dark as it would still get dark before 5 instead of 4.

And it is only for a few months.

So yes i think we should still put the clocks back.

Originally posted by caprice
I'm not sure he's capable of doing that Purplepippa. He hasn't made you look stupid either, only himself. As ever.

Thank you caprice!

I appreciate the reassurance.

Sunday 28th March Daylight saving begins...

Actually, I wrote this article for the Mirror and it appeared last month. Be careful, that's all I can say.

It's not worth taking any risks!

TIME CRIMINALS TO BE PENALISED, SHOCK!

The government has issued a stern warning to the British public: put your clocks forward before 2am on the 28th of March, and face the consequences.

“It is an offence and appropriate action will be taken against offenders,” Time Minister Gerald Smith told us last night.

British Summertime officially begins at 2am on Sunday the 28th of March – and not just when it’s convenient sometime during Saturday evening,” he said.

“It’s not as if it won’t last long. I mean, we’ve got it until October and people still want more,” the irate Minister ranted.

“People have got to stop being so greedy. It’s getting ridiculous and we have to stop it. And so members of the public who utilise British Summertime before it officially becomes available, will have the authorities to answer to.

“People have been known to steal more than EIGHT HOURS which is an awful lot of time. It’s nothing short of criminal. But be warned: the detector vans will be out in force from Saturday teatime, and offenders will be rounded up.”

Mr Smith is asking for restraint and is urging that people go to bed at their normal times on Saturday night, and then get up at 2am and put their clocks forward by one hour. “It’s the only fair way,” he said.
“ Then we can look forward to a good summer as it will be getting dark a lot lighter and earlier much later in the evenings.”

This debate surfaces every year without fail and nothing ever changes, so why break a tradition? Its good to get lighter evenings and good to get an extra hour in bed when they change them again.

Clocks are actually supposed to be put forward at 1am GMT to become 2am BST. The switch in October is back at 2am BST to 1am GMT.

Well I am kind of disappointed as just as it was starting to be light when I was walking to work, it's now going to be dark again :(

Oh and do we have to change the time zone we view this forum on ourselves or will Geoff change it universally?

Originally posted by t020
Clocks are actually supposed to be put forward at 1am GMT to become 2am BST. The switch in October is back at 2am BST to 1am GMT.

Trust you to know what you're on about.

Leave it as it is.
If it aint broke dont try to fix it... :rolleyes:

Yer cant stop doing it now as theyve just gone forward! next thing you know theyll be goin backwards

Originally posted by Bookey
Leave it as it is.
If it aint broke dont try to fix it... :rolleyes:
You could argue that it wasn't broke when the they decided to introduce BST back in 1916. The actual reason for the introduction of BST was because of the Great War. The theory was that planes going out during the evening would save fuel that would have otherwise been needed to power the aircrafts lights.

It's quite interesting to learn that during the Second World War, Double British Summer Time was introduced, and during the summer the clocks were set 2 hours ahead of GMT, and changed back to GMT +1 during the winter.

I don't really know why we still need the seemingly obsolete switch now though. I think it would be better if we used either GMT or BST on a permanent basis.

didn't they stop doing it a few years back and then reintroduce it again, or have i got it wrong?

Thank God for the extra light in the evenings, can actually get some work done on my house when I get in from work.

Originally posted by Killian
didn't they stop doing it a few years back and then reintroduce it again, or have i got it wrong?
I think there was a couple of years in the 60's or 70's when they stopped doing it as an experiment, but they decided to stick with it for some reason.

Originally posted by Lickszz
With the clocks due to go back 1 hour this weekend I just wanted to ask what peoples thoughts are about this.

Should we leave the clocks alone, if so what would be the avantages/disadvantages?

I've seen it quoted somewhere that a couple of hundreds lives at least will be lost due to the clocks going back. Where they get these kind of precise figures from is beyond me.

All this is from Julius, the Roman Emperor, he is responsible for you having to change your clocks backward and forward, as he invented the calendar that we use today, and the Earth is not a perfect timekeeper, so, we have to adjust accordingly.

Originally posted by halevan
All this is from Julius, the Roman Emperor, he is responsible for you having to change your clocks backward and forward, as he invented the calendar that we use today, and the Earth is not a perfect timekeeper, so, we have to adjust accordingly.


No...... the calendar invented by the Romans means that we have to have a leap year every 4 years since their calendar stated 365 days and 6 hours constitutes one year. The clocks going forward has no effect on the length of the calendar year; it is merely a way of ensuring there are more hours of sun in the day during the summer months.

Originally posted by mega_monty
Thank God for the extra light in the evenings, can actually get some work done on my house when I get in from work.

It may an apocryphal story, but what about the old lady who complained about changing the clocks because she feared the extra daylight would fade her curtains!

Originally posted by t020
I quite like the clocks changing, especially from BST to GMT like this weekend where you get an extra hour in bed. It gives people something to talk about, so leave it as it is I say.


You lost an hour - not gained one....

Originally posted by Lindseyw
You lost an hour - not gained one....

He was correct when he posted that last October!

Nomme

Originally posted by nomme
He was correct when he posted that last October!

Nomme

LOL !! I am so sorry.... that'll teach me to start reading the dates eh ??

:)

Sorry but i like this getting darker later once we change the clocks, twas about 8pm last night. A reminder that summer is on its way. Yippee.

I don't, I like it to get dark nice and early. Maybe I'm just odd like that.

Originally posted by Sidla
Maybe I'm just odd like that.

You said it. :loopy: :P :D

Nomme

How do u know if it is light anyway??
Always got that bucket on your head. :D

Oh yeah, and you are wierd :P

I've just seen a report on the Channel 4 news that said if we abandoned GMT we would save huge amounts on heating and lighting in the winter months.

I hate the way it gets dark mid afternoon after Sunday. (But I do like the extra hour in bed).

i say leave the clocks, no forwarding and backwarding

The thing is, GMT is our "proper" time - BST is the adjustment. If we were on BST in the winter it would still be dark at 9:00am on some days. If we kept GMT through the summer we'd lose those long summer nights. Leave it as it is I say.

Originally posted by t020
The thing is, GMT is our "proper" time - BST is the adjustment. If we were on BST in the winter it would still be dark at 9:00am on some days. If we kept GMT through the summer we'd lose those long summer nights. Leave it as it is I say.


I so don't understand that but it sounds good.....

Lets just smash all clocks, then we wont know what time it is... then there will be less accidents :) afterall, people drive through the night anyways, driving in the dark isnt much more dangerous... i find it harder to drive when the sun is half blinding me and i'm boiling hot... roll on winter!