I've just read this on Yahoo News (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050509/325/fiejb.html):

Blair warns Germany against WWII "victim culture"
BERLIN (Reuters) - Prime Minister Tony Blair warned Germans not to develop a "victim culture" over their own suffering in World War Two, saying that Germany was responsible for the war and its consequences.

In an interview with the German daily Bild on Monday marking the 60th anniversary of the end of the war in Europe, Blair said it was understandable that many Germans associated it with hunger, suffering and the loss of their homes.

"But that should not mean cultivating a victim culture. Germany was responsible for the outbreak of the Second World War," he said.

What on earth is that all about? Talk about dragging up the past. Will anyone ever let the war end?

If he did say that then it was incredibly misguided. It doesn't really sound like his style to be honest - a bit of mistranslation?

"countries" do not start wars, people do. And there are very few (if any) Germans alive today who had much to do with how WWII started.

It's Bild, the equivalent of the Sun, only several hundred times worse. I wouldn't believe a word they print..

He didn't even attend the VE ceremony in Russia, he sent John Prescott, but all the other world leaders attended.

Much as I dislike Blair and most of what he represents on this occasion he has a valid point.

Travelling regularly to Germany I am struck by the opinion expressed by many there that we were all equal victims of WW2, equating the actions of the Allies, the mass bombing of their cities by the RAF and the Soviet invasion of East Germany etc. with their own towards the Jews/Poles etc.

Blair is surely correct in reminding Bild readers, who are in my experience the type most likely to express these nationalistic views, that there wouldn't have been a war if they hadn't started it.

more on the interview;

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-05-09T170715Z_01_FOR961607_RTRUKOC_0_EUROPE-WAR-BLAIR.xml

I would not, for one minute, deny the atrocious suffering endured by victims of the aggressive German war machine of WW2. Nevertheless, the war lead [as all wars lead] to suffering for the aggressors too. In particular, the case of a million Germans murdered in reprisals by Soviet troops after the 'liberation' of Berlin springs to mind. Sometimes these matters are forgotten, or understandably overshadowed by the Holocaust, and the figure of 20 million Soviet dead.

The question for me is, how do we measure suffering? Who suffered the most in the end- British or German civilian populations? Who endured the worst treatment, victims of the Holocaust, or prisoners of the Japanese [particularly those used for 'experiments']? It is impossible to compile a league table, or 'top twenty' of human suffering. Whatever atrocities we care to look at, they have often been surpassed in scale in the past. What caused the most suffering, the industrialised, racial warfare of the Nazis against the Jews, or the less systematic barbarity of the Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere?Compare either to the millions slaughtered by the ancient Assyrians, and one is back to square one.

The point of saying that the Germans suffered equally in WWII is from the point of view of the innocent civilians.

The innocent German civilians killed in WWII were killed just as much and just as unfairly as the innocent civilians from Britain, France and the other allies. The fact that some Germans were mainly to blame for the War starting is not really very significant in this discussion.

And remember that Germany was devastated by WWII, and though Britain was very badly bombed it was in slightly better shape after the War than Germany.

How 'innocent' were the German civilians? Some might say that they deserved what they got for backing Hitler. That, by the way, is not how I see things at all. Nevertheless, it is a view I have heard expressed many, many times. Worth pondering?

Originally posted by timo
How 'innocent' were the German civilians? Some might say that they deserved what they got for backing Hitler. That, by the way, is not how I see things at all. Nevertheless, it is a view I have heard expressed many, many times. Worth pondering?

The same could be claimed for the here and now. We deserve what we get for backing Blair :D , - but in fact less than a quarter of the eligible electorate voted for him and his party.

I suspect Hitler had an equally questionable mandate to wage war ?

Hitler took power illegally by force. After he didnt quite recieve enough support via democratic methods

If britain hadnt appeased hitler on so many occasions then surely the war could have been avoided.

Having said that i reckon that if the germans were so against hitler he would have been binned very quickly.

I blame Russia 100% for ww2, they started it in 1914 when they declared war on Austria.

By getting involved after Autria declared war on Serbia they set the ball rolling for "the world" getting involved.

Originally posted by Greybeard
The same could be claimed for the here and now. We deserve what we get for backing Blair :D , - but in fact less than a quarter of the eligible electorate voted for him and his party.

I suspect Hitler had an equally questionable mandate to wage war ?

Bit of a harse comparison dont you think.

Atleast Iraq was invaded because Saddam was a pyschopathic mad man not because he was Jewish. Well actually it was because the idiotic american president wanted to be seen doing something and Mr Blair not wanting to fall out. But hey

Don't mention ze var!

Originally posted by Hubert

I blame Russia 100% for ww2, they started it in 1914 when they declared war on Austria.

Blaming one party for the outbreak of a war, particularly one as complex as WWII is just laughable.

You may be able to pinpoint one act that set the dominoes tumbling (though even that is doubtful) but it doesn't make that one act responsible for tens of millions of deaths.

My Rant

All governments are corrupt in once sense or another. In the end, the common man always gets the short end of stick. Shadow governments of the rich and powerful make the real agenda.

For the most part, they don't give a flying leap about you and I, except when it comes time for us to fill their pockets with our taxes and when they need to send off our sons to fight their idiotic wars.

They create laws to keep us in line and give us a false sense of hope by allowing us to elect the very puppets that will do their bidding. The worst part is that there is nothing we can damn well do about it!

Originally posted by Hubert
I blame Russia 100% for ww2, they started it in 1914 when they declared war on Austria.

By getting involved after Austria declared war on Serbia they set the ball rolling for "the world" getting involved.

What an interesting revisionist theory of history! :wow:

So, the second world war was begun in 1914 by Russia, because Russia declared war on Austria - after Austria had first declared war on Serbia. Thank you for that explanation Hubert. I see it all now. Nothing to do with Hitler invading the Sudentenland, Poland, etc. Must have got that wrong all these years then. Don't know how I could have been mistaken for so long. :?