Our Armed Forces were called upon once again to fight an unneccesary political war. As a Royal Navy veteran of the Korean war I know that no matter the reason, our men and women will do their duty. Sheffield, Great Britain, and all us expats should be proud of the way our men and women have conducted themselves in Iraq, and not condemn them for doing so. Its easy to be an arm chair warrior. It takes guts to go out there and do it.

Originally posted by buck
Our Armed Forces were called upon once again to fight an unneccesary political war. As a Royal Navy veteran of the Korean war I know that no matter the reason, our men and women will do their duty. Sheffield, Great Britain, and all us expats should be proud of the way our men and women have conducted themselves in Iraq, and not condemn them for doing so. Its easy to be an arm chair warrior. It takes guts to go out there and do it.
As an ex-serviceman myself I could not agree more,but these days it is not PC to be nationalistic or possibly be presumed to be a warmongerer.

Originally posted by matsalleh
As an ex-serviceman myself I could not agree more,but these days it is not PC to be nationalistic or possibly be presumed to be a warmongerer.

I don't see anyone calling this man a nationalist, or a warmongerer, or telling him to be PC.

I've always believed that one can and should honour the warriors irrespective of your personal feelings of the rights or wrongs of a particular war.

It's a tough job and with the exception of a few 'bad eggs' that every war turns up they seem to be doing the job expected of them with courage and professionalism.

I've moved this thread to 'General' btw, rather than keeping it in 'General Sheffield Chat'.

Cheers

Joe

Originally posted by kathythebean
I don't see anyone calling this man a nationalist, or a warmongerer, or telling him to be PC.
There is no way I am doing what you say, 100% in support of him,maybe you did not read my earlier post correctly.

Sorry, I think we've got crossed wires somehow! We both support this guy - I don't think you would find many that wouldn't!

Alls I was saying was that you were a bit too quick to say that people would take that attitude to be nationalistic un-PC, etc, when I don't think many on here would.

:thumbsup:

Originally posted by buck
Our Armed Forces were called upon once again to fight an unneccesary political war. As a Royal Navy veteran of the Korean war I know that no matter the reason, our men and women will do their duty. Sheffield, Great Britain, and all us expats should be proud of the way our men and women have conducted themselves in Iraq, and not condemn them for doing so. Its easy to be an arm chair warrior. It takes guts to go out there and do it.

My grandad was a wing commander in the RAF and flew combat missions in the name of the United Nations during Korean war. He and many of the crew were still teenagers at the time.

I know he had a lot of bad memories and suffered nightmares for many many years after.

The commies were immersing our prisoners of war in water up to their necks for days at a time, tying them up with barbed wire and all sorts of atrocities.

They were ordered to bomb and strafe occupied villages, why...because the commies were hiding there ready to kill our young men.

What else could they do? Refuse and let their countrymen die?

I don't think many would. Like them, they would not have had the choice.

Originally posted by matsalleh
As an ex-serviceman myself I could not agree more,but these days it is not PC to be nationalistic or possibly be presumed to be a warmongerer.

That is not true

Originally posted by IanMitchell
That is not true
But I believe it to be true,apart of course from the relatives of servicemen and women.

Originally posted by matsalleh
But I believe it to be true,apart of course from the relatives of servicemen and women.

I was just saying there's nothing wrong with being proud of your country really.

It's when extreme nationalism leads to hate...

Originally posted by IanMitchell
I was just saying there's nothing wrong with being proud of your country really.

It's when extreme nationalism leads to hate...
Perhaps I should have said patriotic rather than nationalistic.I don't think getting drunk all round the world in Union Jack shorts is patriotic or nationalistic,just loutish behaviour.

I agree that all our service personnel deserve our respect and support irrespective of the conflict in which they engage.

However, I don't see that the Korean conflict was any less political than the current Iraq conflict. More so in fact, as the Korean war was fought for ideological reasons rather than the commercial reasons for conflicts such as The Falklands, Iraq I and II.

Originally posted by max

However, I don't see that the Korean conflict was any less political than the current Iraq conflict. More so in fact, as the Korean war was fought for ideological reasons rather than the commercial reasons for conflicts such as The Falklands, Iraq I and II.

Would anyone care to mention to me the last war that was not in some way "political"?

Whatever word you use to describe the Korean War it was to do with defining geopolitical spheres of influence, which in my view is what just about any war we seem to get involved in is about.

It is all about political expendiency. What Russia is doing to Chechenya is far worse than anything that happened in Yugoslavia. Whats the difference? You don't start bossing around countries with nuclear weapons and a huge army.

Again, as I say, war is ALWAYS political.

Today war is always political, if I used the word it may have stressed this point, but my main aim was to point out that professional soldiers( and sailors) do not question the motives for a war, they do what they believe their duty is. Were it not for that we would not have the freedom we enjoy. Freedom was never won by the naysayers. If it was we may all be speaking German today. I personally hate the president who created the Iraq situation and did not vote for him. Nonethe less, American servicemen and women as well as British have fought and died because they saw it as their duty. I am proud of them too.

As an ex-serviceman myself I could not agree more,but these days it is not PC to be nationalistic or possibly be presumed to be a warmongerer.

I agree! I was in my last year at school when the war started and all anyone went on about was how we were killing innocent people and then one day they held a protest outside the gates and handed me a leaflet.

I said 'no thankyou' and they pushed it into my hand and I just burst! I was so angry - 'no THANKYOU it's a load of balls! Why not, instead of complaining about how people from your country are killing people out there, try thanking them and being proud of them for going out there and sorting out somebody else's mistakes (after all, Sudam was killing more each day!) instead of criticising them for doing their job! You ought to be so ashamed of what you're doing!'

From that day on, I was war mongerer, and my best friend turned round and said 'just cos you're pro war' people can be so deluded!

My admiration goes to all of you out there who have fought in wars because, even if I wasn't a girl, and disabled, I wouldn't have that courage.

Lottie

professional soldiers( and sailors) do not question the motives for a war, they do what they believe their duty is.
Well said and it should be the civilians duty to support them.

Originally posted by Lotti
I agree! I was in my last year at school when the war started and all anyone went on about was how we were killing innocent people and then one day they held a protest outside the gates and handed me a leaflet.

I said 'no thankyou' and they pushed it into my hand and I just burst! I was so angry - 'no THANKYOU it's a load of balls! Why not, instead of complaining about how people from your country are killing people out there, try thanking them and being proud of them for going out there and sorting out somebody else's mistakes (after all, Sudam was killing more each day!) instead of criticising them for doing their job! You ought to be so ashamed of what you're doing!'

From that day on, I was war mongerer, and my best friend turned round and said 'just cos you're pro war' people can be so deluded!

My admiration goes to all of you out there who have fought in wars because, even if I wasn't a girl, and disabled, I wouldn't have that courage.

Lottie

This is one of the biggest and in my opnion most damaging misunderstandings between the prowar and antiwar lot. The vast majority on both sides support the troops - ie they are grateful for the great job they do, the committment they put in and the tragic losses they suffer. The horrible thing is the anti-war message comes across as being anti-troops, which its often not at all. Most of the time it is an angry protest solely against the government for putting those brave men and women at risk for something which the protesters believe is not a valid cause.

Whilst leafleting for the Stop the War campaign I had a very angry man come up to me and shout at me about how his brother was in Iraq and I was insulting him etc. After he calmed down we ended up having a long conversation about the ins and outs of the war, but came to a very amiable conclusion that although we had different opinions we both supported his brother and hated tony blair!

Just because you are critical of government policy it does not mean you do not love your country and support your army brethren.

I agree .. altho i wouldnt go as far to say i hated Tony Blair ...... I feel for the man ......... although he should apologise as he now understands peoples anger and why it was wrong for him to go to war

We can all show support just by not buying Jane Fondas new book !

Jane Fonda :confused:

When someone joins the 'forces' army, navy, airforce, they do so knowing that they may (and will likely) be called to carry out their duties in 'war conditions' or 'war like conditions'. Things haven't changed much over the years, there's always been one conflict or another going on for as long as i can remember.

I was going to join the army, but was turned away at age 28 for being 'too old'. If i had joined, I would have done what was expected of me. Now, i'm glad i was too old, I would hate to have to serve in some of these unstable countries.

Of course we all support our servicemen and women - because we would rather they be doing the job than us!

A close friend of mine has a son somewhere out there, he hasn't heard from him for over a year now and i know he is worried sick, but what can he do? It's a very sad world where there is constant violence but in order to overcome evil regimes, it is what has to be done - like it or not.

Should our government have stood by and watched as
Sad man gassed another thousand,
like the chocolate fireguard UN.

Originally posted by retep
Should our government have stood by and watched as
Sad man gassed another thousand,
like the chocolate fireguard UN.

Should our government have stood by and watched Saddam gas thousands, you ask?

I thought the previous Tory government supplied him with the weapons to do so?

Funny how these things slip your mind.

Well Said Abdul!!:thumbsup:

It's the western goverments that influence the wars and then make themselves look like heroes after invading the countries they originally backed!???

I am amazed by the Iraq people who are trying to live their lives with car bombs going off everyday, thousands of families separated, dead, homeless and being interrogated by British & American troops every single day. Not to mention the Iraqi civilians who have been abused sexually & physically by these peacekeeping troops.

Do not look if you are sickened easily:

http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444

I thought the previous Tory government supplied him with the weapons to do so?

Wilkinson's sell rat poison, does not give me the right to come and put it on your dinner.

And isn't it marvelous that Sad man can kill thousands,
but the peace keepers are made to look despots.

Originally posted by retep
Wilkinson's sell rat poison, does not give me the right to come and put it on your dinner.

And isn't it marvelous that Sad man can kill thousands,
but the peace keepers are made to look despots.

So why do you think that generally we make a show of saying who we do and don't sell weapons to?

Saddam Hussein was sold weapons because he was our ally in the middle east.
After he gassed the kurds in the 80s Ronald Reagan sent Doanld Rumsfeld (Yes, THAT Donald Rumsfeld) on a diplomatic visit to Baghdad to show that Saddam still had the backing of the US.

I really wish that I held your view of the world that our leaders are driven by motives of pure benevolence. Do you seriously believe that the world runs along the lines of "goodies" and "baddies" in such black and white terms and that the US and UK governments are ALWAYS in the right, even when they totally change their minds from one decade to the next?

Saddam Hussein was sold weapons because he was our ally in the middle east.

He didn't have to buy them.
I really wish that I held your view of the world that our leaders are driven by motives of pure benevolence.

Your view of my views,completley wrong

I am amazed by the Iraq people who are trying to live their lives with car bombs going off everyday

Its Iraqi killing Iraqi, or hav'nt you noticed.

Originally posted by retep
He didn't have to buy them.

To pin the blame solely on Saddam perhaps highlights a limited knowledge of Iraqi history.

The US not only supported and supplied Saddam for decades, but started the problem by assisting him into power.

Perhaps Saddam deemed it impolite not to reciprocate?


Originally posted by retep
Its Iraqi killing Iraqi, or hav'nt you noticed.

I expect Lestat's comments were more in support of Iraqi civilians, rather than a criticism of American and British soldiers. I seem to recall you were highly critical of George Galloway, in much the same situation?

To pin the blame solely on Saddam perhaps highlights a limited knowledge of Iraqi history.

Culture perhaps, as for history i can read as well as you.

Everyone blames the West for all their ills.

are the East that thick they have to have someone to tell them what to do.

If they didn't let the West take advantage in the first place,
mainly by the greed of a few so called leaders they would'nt be in such a state.

As for good old George Galloway, in the words of Sherlock Holmes the truth will out.

Originally posted by retep
are the East that thick they have to have someone to tell them what to do.

If they didn't let the West take advantage in the first place,
mainly by the greed of a few so called leaders they would'nt be in such a state.

Hmmmm . . seems like it's not just the East thats so thick.:gag:
You'd fit in quite well retep.

Of course most of the eastern countries sent out invites to the west to come and rape, pillage and plunder.

Originally posted by retep
Everyone blames the West for all their ills.

are the East that thick they have to have someone to tell them what to do.

If they didn't let the West take advantage in the first place,
mainly by the greed of a few so called leaders they would'nt be in such a state.

You write as if it was their own fault, that the Iraqi people were living under a brutal CIA-supported dictatorship, when I suspect they wouldn't have had much of a say in the matter.

Originally posted by retep
As for good old George Galloway, in the words of Sherlock Holmes the truth will out.

I thought the truth (http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/images1/rumsfeld_&_hussein1.jpg) was already out.

Hmmmm . . seems like it's not just the East thats so thick.

Seems like something I said hit a nerve.

Of course most of the eastern countries sent out invites to the west to come and rape, pillage and plunder.

Seem to remember the Moors doing this at some point in history
it's funny how things come around.

Are they still doing it in the Sudan.

Stands back and waits for more insults on his education.

Originally posted by retep
Stands back and waits for more insults on his education.

Nah! it's a waste of skin cells being passed onto the keys of my pc by answering back to someone who is obviously such an . . 'Intellectual'. :loopy:

Originally posted by retep
Seem to remember the Moors doing this at some point in history
it's funny how things come around.

Yes, a little like the Crusades

Originally posted by retep
Are they still doing it in the Sudan.

Have they stopped doing it in Bosnia?

My partner's brother is currently serving in the armed forces Iraq. I offer my wholehearted support to our dedicated servicemen and women. They put their lives on the line, and sadly, some have died in the line of duty.

My views have nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of the UK being involved in the conflict in Iraq. I feel that is an entirely separate issue, and should be debated on another thread.

As buck first posted - "it takes guts to go out there", so let's support our troops.

You write as if it was their own fault, that the Iraqi people were living under a brutal CIA-supported dictatorship,

Thats the point they WERE living under a dictatorship, under a dictatorship, under a dictatorship ad-infinitum you can't blame the CIA for exploiting the situation blame the dictators greed.

But now they are'nt and they are still killing each other.

Originally posted by retep
Thats the point they WERE living under a dictatorship, under a dictatorship, under a dictatorship ad-infinitum you can't blame the CIA for exploiting the situation blame the dictators greed.

For someone who claims to knowledge of Iraq's history, you've missed out a crucial part. The CIA supported Saddam in his coup which overthrew Iraq's leader - you know, the leader who wanted to renationalise the oil fields (a costly mistake).

It was the CIA that started off Saddam's dictatorship.

But you hold the CIA blameless; you blame the Iraqi people instead.

Forget slimsid. retep for Prime Minister instead. :roll:

Yes, Saddam was a cruel dictator responsible for genocide; and the primary reason I want him to go on trial is so he can take Rumsfeld, Mellor et al down with him


Originally posted by retep
But now they are'nt and they are still killing each other.

Did you expect Iraq to be all sweetness and light, after the invasion?

Did you not expect a power struggle between the occupying troops and Iraqi resistance / insurgents that would cause thousands more civilian deaths?

Yet another reason so many were against the war!

Mod. Note

OK. I'm only going to say this once and if it's not taken on board I'll prune the thread and ban folks who mess about.

This thread was started by someone who wished to express a certain feeling about the forces in Iraq.

It is not a thread to argue the rights and wrongs of that war.

If you want to do that start a new thread.

Joe

I'd like to say for the last time it was never my intent to have this thread turned into a slanging match. To do so dishonours the dead from all sides who did there duty no matter what wherever it was needed. Just one thing though: I'm glad Lestat never served on one of my ships! That would have been too much.