how powerful do people think prayer is? and what other experinces have people had?

Can't say, Am not religious in any way but curious to see what replies you get on this :suspect:

I don't believe in any daiety (*sp) so I feel prayer is merely a crook for the weak. :)

you dnt belive in any what sorry?

deity

n. pl. de·i·ties

-A god or goddess.
-The essential nature or condition of being a god; divinity.

Depends how you define the power of prayer - if you mean does it help people come to terms with things, make sense of things and provides an outlet for their worries and concerns etc. then i can well imagine it's pretty powerful for thhose who pray.

But if you mean the power of prayer as the church would see it - as in a hotline to The Big Man with the power to change things then I can't say it has much power at all being a non-believer.

:)

well you would say that if youre a none beliver

but what good can it 'actually' do?

I believe in the power of prayer. I'm not saying that I think you get a direct response from God but I do believe that focussed positive thought can do much good.

I realise that you can't test this theory, but here are a couple of reasons why I believe.

A fortnight ago a very close friend of mine's Mother died at the very wonderful St Luke's hospice. Before she died the hospice contacted all her family to say that her time was nearing an end and that theyshould come. She was expected to die within hours. She hung on for five days to the shock of doctors and nurses. My friend could not cope with the idea of loosing her and wouldn't let go. The doctors said, to her, that her Mum's maternal instinct was so strong that she didnt let go till my friend was ready. She, too, had a great deal of people praying for her; and maybe this with her great love for her daughter meant she could stay for five days longer

Another friend of mine told me yesterday that her friend's Mother, who was terminally ill in hospital with cancer, had dumbfounded doctors by not dying. I think she is at home with her family now, after the doctors said that there was no way she should be alive.

Four years ago my most precious cat, Sydney, became very very ill and the vet told me he would die within 24 hours. He lived on for another three and a half years. Most of my friends and myself were praying for him. I know that a lot of people will say, well he was only a cat, but I really did love him enormously.

I believe very much in the power of prayer and I will continue to do so, but I realise that there is much doubt or disbelief amongst people, and like I said there is no test for this.

There was a news article about this not so long ago, that concluded negative results.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1844076.stm

So there is the fors and against.

I believe.

I believe in prayer very strongly.

A. I don't mind if people don't believe and therefore wouldn't believe, but I think comments such as 'a crook for the weak' have no place, as I don't believe that I'm weak and I pray and find it a very positive thing in my life.

First of all, I was born with a rare condition and nearly died a few years ago. I had people, even non christians praying for me, (now if people who don't believe are willing to pray, it has to be something special) and I got through it despite having the two main veins to my heart blocked by thrombosis.

I also went for an appointment recently, and so far we've been told absolutely nothing can be done. My mum sent all her friends (again, religious and non religious) an email asking to pray for me. We got some really positive results and have operations lined up for this summer.

I believe that God has influenced my life a LOT. You would know and have absolutely no doubt in your mind at all, if you had experienced things I've experienced.
I used to be a stronger Christian than I am now, and when I got confirmed, I prayed to God beforehand to make sure I was doing the right thing, I asked him to cleanse me with the holy spirit and was completely open to it. However, it suddenly came over me and I can't explain what it was like AT ALL but I can say that I was terrified to pray again after, it put a real fear into me and actually, I didn't pray for a few nights for fear the same thing would happen. I had been in tears, sweating, but felt wonderful! Just so scary! If that happened to you, you'd know it wasn't just psychological - it's impossible to deny God when he comes to you that strong.

I would never have survived this long without God in my life and if religion is just 'a crook for the weak' then how has it lasted this long across the whole world?

I know there are many unanswered things, and I appreciate people have their own views, but I have to confess I found that comment quite offensive, as I don't believe I am weak, I have been told by people I'm the strongest person (at such a young age) that they know.

I have to apologise, if this sounded at all arrogant, I'm really not, just didn't know how else to say it!

OatesCamilla - thanks for starting such an interesting topic! I would strongly urge anyone wondering about Christianity or any religion to go to a religious insitute and try it out for a while.

Lottie x

Prayer is not just a "crook for the weak". I am far from weak. In fact, I am confident, intelligent and far too opinionated for my own good.

I know all about the power of prayer and I know that if you pray with sincerity in faith, and you truly need an answer you will get one. It might not be the answer you want it to be, but you will get an answer.

totaly agree with olliekitten and lotti. i have had alot of people praying for me in church and out cause other wise i may not have been here know i have an eating disorder and it is helping me to deal with problems so please dnt say its for the weak cause its not and miracles can happen an if you belive that strongley they will no matter how much prayer you have it will do you the world of good.

I'm really glad that you found help, sweetie.


Lots of love x

Originally posted by oatescamilla
well you would say that if youre a none beliver

does that make our opinion any less valid.

prayer has no power beyond making the prayer feel like they're doing something (falsely).

Cyclone, I don't feel that it is fair to say what you said as if it is an absolute truth.

Different people have different beliefs and no-one was getting at 'non-believers' and there is no excuse for getting at believers either.

Come on, play nice.

If we are talking about prayer affecting material outcomes in the physical world (and not the power of prayer to help you through a hard time, for example) then you cannot measure the power of prayer (how powerful is it).

You can try and record the effects in a randomised test - obviously a double blind experiment would not work.

New Scientist reported something like this about 6 or 7 years ago, a randomised trial of 1000 cardiac patients, half were prayed for half were not.

Interestingly a significant deviation was reported for the prayer group, with improved outcomes over the control.

More interestingly, this deviation also held true for the numbers of patients leaving the facility (either better or dead) before the prayers even started indicating that God either heard the prayers before they were uttered (perfectly plausible), or unconscious preselection of less sick patients to the prayer group.

Eventually I think this discrepancy was shown to be down to the non-random nature of the randomisation - a shortcoming with the experiment.

Some problems with even testing for the power of prayer, let alone measuring it:

God exists out of time and space, and therefore knows what is, was and will ever be. So praying to affect a future outcome is futile, as the outcome is already part of Gods divine plan - que sera sera , prayer or no prayer

Agnostics and atheists are repeatedly told that "you cannot test God" - quite validly because of the point made above.

You cannot pray unless you believe. If you believe, then you cannot have any objective measure of whether an outcome was caused/prevented by prayer or not.

Scientifically minded christians, however, should have no problem devising a simple experiment that any christian could perform at home, which if the massed results were pooled would leave us in no doubt as to the power of prayer - or the lack of it.

Rupert Sheldrake would be the man to ask about this, and I bet he would be pretty interested in it too.

Might mail the guy and ask for some advice.

Originally posted by Olliekitten
Cyclone, I don't feel that it is fair to say what you said as if it is an absolute truth.

Different people have different beliefs and no-one was getting at 'non-believers' and there is no excuse for getting at believers either.

Come on, play nice.

you asked for opinions, my opinion is that prayer has no effect on anything other than the mind of the person praying, they may or may not believe (in my opinion falsley) that they are achieving something, I believe that they are wasting their time.

Originally posted by Cyclone
you asked for opinions, my opinion is that prayer has no effect on anything other than the mind of the person praying, they may or may not believe (in my opinion falsley) that they are achieving something, I believe that they are wasting their time.

What leads you to that conclusion? Out of interest?

Originally posted by oatescamilla
how powerful do people think prayer is?

God only knows!!


I once prayed for 12 weeks for a lottery win - fat lot of good it did me! Oh god why have thou forsaken me?:(

Originally posted by miniminch
God only knows!!


I once prayed for 12 weeks for a lottery win - fat lot of good it did me! Oh god why have thou forsaken me?:(

mini, you can pray for a win, but you have to buy your own lottery ticket. God may be all powerful but he can be a right tightwad.

hiya
i went to the dentist some years ago with excrutiating pain - I hadnt slept for about 3 days, couldnt eat, could only sip water. I went and there was a locum dentist who said she couldnt find anything wrong with me but said a prayer for me while she held my hand.
It wasnt actually the most effective pain relief nor did it cure the problem - I'd actually dislocated my jaw - traditional medicine and drugs soon sorted it out where prayer didnt!

I was paralysed in a unexplained diving incident, and was given the most aggressive treatment availble in one of the best recompression chambers in the country. Tthe gasses they gave me to help me were at such high partial pressures that they actually carry their own risks (worst case - death), hence someone stays with you in the chamber just in case they need to intervene).

Anyway, after 8 hours in the chamber at great expense to the NHS and the taxpayer (thankyou!!!) I came out no better at all. :(
The experts said, you either start to get better as a result of the treatment, and continue to get better - hopefully to a full recovery (but not always).... *or* the damage is too great and you don't show any sign of recovery, and you don't get better, at all.

So I was meant to stay paralysed from the top of my chest, down. But that's not so bad as the doctor told me I should really have been dead. I was sent round other hospitals getting every test and scan going, as the experts searched for another diagnosis that may have brought with it a glimmer of hope.

Unfortunately, nothing.... it was definitly diving related and I was definitely paralysed.

Anyway, 24 hours atfer it happened, with no improvement, my local church were beginning their Sunday service, and those that didn't alreadt know what had happened to me were told. The WHLE church prayed for me and - as far as I can work out - at the exact same time, I started to be able to move my legs.

Cut a long story short, I made a full recovery, and prayer was a MASSIVE part of it :clap:

Originally posted by SupraSteve
I was paralysed in a unexplained diving incident, Explain?


Phan - no where in the prayer literature is there anything about me having to shell out before I pray! Sometimes I think god is having a laffffff!!!!:P

Originally posted by miniminch
Explain?


Phan - no where in the prayer literature is there anything about me having to shell out before I pray! Sometimes I think god is having a laffffff!!!!:P

Another old joke....

Man prays and prays and prays to God to let him win the lottery. Unfortunately, he never wins anything, and finally in desperation he says "God, why don't you listen to me?"

Out of nowhere a loud voice says "Meet me halfway - buy a ticket"!

StarSparkle

Originally posted by miniminch
Explain?

Basically I did a perfectly normal dive (I've done hundreds and hundreds as I'm an instructor), with really really gentle descent and ascent profile, only to a depth of about 22m and the dive time was only 20 minutes from surface back to surface again. To put that into persepective a more technical dive migth be to 40m+ involving decompression stops at several depths, and in-water times of over an hour.

Anyway, I did nothing wrong, but got paralysed, and they can't find out why. Ho hum, I'm better now so I'm not complaining! :)

not religious in any way, but do light candles in a church sometimes, really strong feeling but not to do with god, can feel the worship and understand this but dont believe myself

Originally posted by SupraSteve
Basically I did a perfectly normal dive (I've done hundreds and hundreds as I'm an instructor), with really really gentle descent and ascent profile, only to a depth of about 22m and the dive time was only 20 minutes from surface back to surface again. To put that into persepective a more technical dive migth be to 40m+ involving decompression stops at several depths, and in-water times of over an hour.

Anyway, I did nothing wrong, but got paralysed, and they can't find out why. Ho hum, I'm better now so I'm not complaining! :)

Thanks for explaining your 'unexplained diving incident':)

Originally posted by miniminch
Thanks for explaining your 'unexplained diving incident':)

well you know what I mean, the events are describable, but the 'incident' was what? and when?? Basically the specialists can't say what happened even after dozens of tests and scans, but they all agree I should be dead/paralysed, and I'm not, hurrah! :D

Anyway, I'm off to bed, before I get an unexplained telling off from the missis for being on the computer all night. ;) Night all!

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
What leads you to that conclusion? Out of interest?

my disbelief in a diety is well documented on here. So given that i don't believe in any supernatural force being out there listening to our thoughts, and that there is no evidence for our thoughts going anywhere apart from around inside our skulls I can imagine no mechanism by which they can affect the outside world.
They can though affect the mind of the person praying, although if it were any other delusion so strongly clung too and talked about and talked too then you'd probably get sectioned.
A prayer is like any other internal monologue basically, you are just talking to yourself in your head.

I believe in god and eventhough I don`t go to church I pray.
I prayed to have my sons come back from Iraq and they did, but I am also a great believer in fate.

So on the one hand I hoped my prayers brought my sons back but on the other it could have been fate that decided it was not time for them to die yet.

For those who think prayer is a wasted activity, what are your thoughts on the healing activity of Yoga?

Also, Cyclone, doesn't Jiu-Jitsu have a spiritual element to it?

Originally posted by Cyclone
my disbelief in a diety is well documented on here. So given that i don't believe in any supernatural force being out there listening to our thoughts, and that there is no evidence for our thoughts going anywhere apart from around inside our skulls I can imagine no mechanism by which they can affect the outside world.
They can though affect the mind of the person praying, although if it were any other delusion so strongly clung too and talked about and talked too then you'd probably get sectioned.
A prayer is like any other internal monologue basically, you are just talking to yourself in your head.

OK - What I'm interested in is whether prayer could have any effect, despite the non-existence of a deity.

If you accept that matter, energy and light are the same thing, and that our brains are incomputably complex manipulators of matter and energy, is it impossible for one brain to affect another at a distance?

Is the existentce of God a requirement for successful prayer, or is merely a belief in God sufficient for prayers to have an effect?

To turn things on their head, if prayer worked by some other mechanism, then a belief in God would be strengthened by successful prayer, even though no God existed to facilitate it. So religions might form as a result.

Do you see what I'm driving at?

Thats very intresting and it actually makes sense for me.

But why do I pray if I believe in fate, surely if everything has been written already why do I still choose to pray when I feel it necessary.

I had a mum who was Roman Catholic and a dad who was church of england and we never went to church.

Do I just want something to believe in?

I know what you mean Rosie, I know this may sound mad, but I think both play a part.
Plus, perhaps if everything is already laid out (as in fate) that has been taking into consideration that you will pray.
At the end of the day, if it's your fate to die through a tragic car crash at a certain age when you're completely healthy (I know just bear with me I know where I'm going with this) then you have to get in that car, and have a crash otherwise, it won't happen.

I do partly believe in fate, but I think fate can be determined as well (I know it'll be hard for some people to understand - I can't quite get my head around it) but I think God plays a big part too.

Perhaps it's not that you want to believe it's that deep down somewhere you do, and it's trying to reach your brain to tell you! I strongly urge you to continue!

I'm a C of E Christian but I don't go to Church regularly anymore. I'm not as strong in religion as I used to be, as pressures of teenage life and college, and hypocrisy at church has put me off it a bit, but I'm hoping to get back to it!

Take care! Lottie xx

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
OK - What I'm interested in is whether prayer could have any effect, despite the non-existence of a deity.

If you accept that matter, energy and light are the same thing, and that our brains are incomputably complex manipulators of matter and energy, is it impossible for one brain to affect another at a distance?

Is the existentce of God a requirement for successful prayer, or is merely a belief in God sufficient for prayers to have an effect?

To turn things on their head, if prayer worked by some other mechanism, then a belief in God would be strengthened by successful prayer, even though no God existed to facilitate it. So religions might form as a result.

Do you see what I'm driving at?

if i understand correctly you're basically driving at some sort of psychic power. There's no evidence to suggest that any such thing exists, people who profess to have these powers rarely allow anyone to perform a series study on how they are working.
Given the extremely weak electrical signals generated in our brains I don't see how they could propagate beyond our skulls and maintain any integrity through the hailstorm of electromagnetic activity going on around us.
Matter energy and light aren't the same thing, they are just linked and one can be converted to the other. And our brains aren't incomputably complex, we know exactly how complex they are (in terms of numbers of neurons and how many inputs/outputs each neuron has. We just don't yet have sufficiently complex computers to simulate such a neural net, and we don't fully understand what connects to what and what influence the rather delicate brain chemistry has on the whole thing.

Originally posted by bonny
For those who think prayer is a wasted activity, what are your thoughts on the healing activity of Yoga?

Also, Cyclone, doesn't Jiu-Jitsu have a spiritual element to it?

If you consider it spiritual to smack other people into the floor as hard as possible, then yes. Otherwise, not really.
Jitsu is derived from japanese martial arts practiced originally by samurai. Their religion was a combination of shinto and zen budshism, neither of which believe in a single diety or as far as i can tell the power of prayer.

I don't know much it but from what I have read it does seem there is also a spritual side of Jiu Jitsu.

If you choose to ignore this element of Jiu Jitsu, can you truly follow it?

I only ask as you seem to draw a complete blank about anything vaguely spiritual and give it no credibility as though that were a fact. The truth is, there are no facts and nothing inplace to disprove it. Technology and science seem to be your God.

I find it strange that we once existed in a time when technology was not relevant and spirituality had a fundamental relevance. We then progressed to the science age and cast aside spirituality. Now comes the time to learn from the errors of both ages and move towards a one that combines both, you can see evidence of it happening now if you choose to look. Right down to your own G.Ps "new ways" of practice.

given that you admit to knowing very little about the subject are you seriously questioning me about my art? That sounds like the height of arrogance.

fact is pretty hard to pin down, but i'm fairly sure that 'facts' do exist. I'm sat in my dining room, that's a fact. It's sunny in my yard, another one.
I presume you mean my religion, I don't agree, science doesn't rely on faith thus it doesn't fall under the definition of a religion.

When exactly was technology not relevant, i've never read about a period of history like that.

new age spiritual mumbo jumbo makes me want to leave now and go to the cinema. bu bye.

Originally posted by Cyclone
given that you admit to knowing very little about the subject are you seriously questioning me about my art? That sounds like the height of arrogance.

fact is pretty hard to pin down, but i'm fairly sure that 'facts' do exist. I'm sat in my dining room, that's a fact. It's sunny in my yard, another one.
I presume you mean my religion, I don't agree, science doesn't rely on faith thus it doesn't fall under the definition of a religion.

When exactly was technology not relevant, i've never read about a period of history like that.

new age spiritual mumbo jumbo makes me want to leave now and go to the cinema. bu bye.

1) Since when has questioning equated to arrogance of the highest? I did mention that I had read about the spiritual aspects of Jui Jitsu, it seems you have not but consider it your art? Sounds like you need to dig deeper than the surface of your art.

2) I never mentioned religion.

3) erm, technology, well it has a pretty vast description that can include a spiritual meaning. As you reject anything of that notion then my meaning of technology was intended as one YOU would understand. That being I.T. or anything invented since you were born.

4) new age mumbo jumbo? so riddle me this batman, why is science now accepting that methods used many years ago based on spirituality do have credibility?

Originally posted by Cyclone
prayer has no power beyond making the prayer feel like they're doing something (falsely).

Now that, is arrogance. You made that statement as though you are privy to something the rest of the world isn't.

Do you have "facts" to prove this?

On the subject of martial arts not being spiritual ...

A major aspect of martial arts (though not the uncultured 'lets hack each other to bits' kind) is cultivation and expression of a person's energy (chi / qi).

I am no expert on ju-jitsu ... but isn't this a significant component of your art Cyclone?

Originally posted by Cyclone
if i understand correctly you're basically driving at some sort of psychic power.

What I am driving at is that you dismiss the power of prayer because you discount the existence of God - when in fact God may have nothing to do with it.

There's no evidence to suggest that any such thing exists, people who profess to have these powers rarely allow anyone to perform a series study on how they are working.

There is an awful lot of anecdotal evidence (i.e not evidence at all) that gives good cause for investigation.

Investigation is diffcult in the current academic climate - all part of the politics of science - but anomalous results turn up often enough. One study of flight ticket cancellations appeared to show a statistically significant deviation in cancellation rates on aircraft that subsequently crashed, for example.

I think that because our understanding of the brain and the mind is so incomplete there may be all sorts of subtle electrocolloidal effects going on that may well give rise to 'spooky behaviour'

Given the extremely weak electrical signals generated in our brains I don't see how they could propagate beyond our skulls and maintain any integrity through the hailstorm of electromagnetic activity going on around us.


Extremely weak? The Brain uses between 10 and 60 watts of energy - not a small amount.

A 60 watt laser can beam information into the next galaxy, for example. A 60W ULF transmitter can send music out over a very large area indeed. Also if the brain is an incredibly sensitive electrically charged organ, (which it is), and if the skull is paper thin in some places and almost universally transparent to radiation of many kind (which it is), then I think the possibilities of direct brain interaction are not closed off. Not proven, or even demonstrated, but emphatically not impossible.

Please note I am not saying this phenomena exists, what I am saying is that the possibility exists, and has not been looked for yet.

So, given that the mind of a human can induce and more or less cure a whole range of ailments, and that it is possible for a mind to be influenced by the internal state of other minds, then I think you are too hasty - from a scientific perspective - to rule out the power of prayer.


Matter energy and light aren't the same thing, they are just linked and one can be converted to the other.

And what is this stuff that you are converting from matter to energy?

And our brains aren't incomputably complex, we know exactly how complex they are (in terms of numbers of neurons and how many inputs/outputs each neuron has. We just don't yet have sufficiently complex computers to simulate such a neural net, and we don't fully understand what connects to what and what influence the rather delicate brain chemistry has on the whole thing.

Computer simulate a brain? Now that is total fantasy. I'm sorry though, of course the mathematical complexity of a brain is possible to estimate to within a few orders of magnitude, I would have thought, but even something as simple (relatively) as its internal state at any given time gives you no clue whatsoever to what is going on inside in terms of subjective experience. So perhaps I should have said The incomputability of the human mind.

Plenty of people on this forum seem to have felt the power of prayer, so I would be hesitant to discount it quite so off-handedly.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Plenty of people on this forum seem to have felt the power of prayer, so I would be hesitant to discount it quite so off-handedly.

I agree ... although I believe the spiritual capacity of human beings (and therefore the power of prayer) has little or nothing to do with the likes of 'god' and 'religion' etc ...

Such things are (I believe) attempts at rationalizing the former and are very much culture dependent.

Far less powerful than getting married in the woods.

Originally posted by Jamie
On the subject of martial arts not being spiritual ...

A major aspect of martial arts (though not the uncultured 'lets hack each other to bits' kind) is cultivation and expression of a person's energy (chi / qi).

I am no expert on ju-jitsu ... but isn't this a significant component of your art Cyclone?

No.. That's a chinese philosophy and jiu jitsu is japanese in origin.

Originally posted by bonny
Now that, is arrogance. You made that statement as though you are privy to something the rest of the world isn't.

Do you have "facts" to prove this?

I made the statement as if I was giving my opinion as the thread requested. Do you have any facts to back up your opinion, or your comments about jiu jitsu?

Maybe you'd were expecting me to say "oh sorry, I had a look around and realised that my nine years of jiu jitsu had failed to expose the spiritual element to me which you picked up on in your few minutes reading.

There is nothing spiritual about what I do. There are elements of philosophy, self awareness and self control, awareness of our surroundings, psychology and a whole lot of blatting people into the floor. But no spiritualism. I don't need to dig any deeper, I'm not just floating around on the surface, there is no mystical rubbish about developing our inner power or being one with the [SIZE=1]insert object here[/SIZE/.

What is it you do bonny? Maybe you'd be happy if I say that you're missing something out of your hobby (something that doesn't exist as part of it). If so then consider that to be an explanation of my defensiveness.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
What I am driving at is that you dismiss the power of prayer because you discount the existence of God - when in fact God may have nothing to do with it.


There is an awful lot of anecdotal evidence (i.e not evidence at all) that gives good cause for investigation.

Investigation is diffcult in the current academic climate - all part of the politics of science - but anomalous results turn up often enough. One study of flight ticket cancellations appeared to show a statistically significant deviation in cancellation rates on aircraft that subsequently crashed, for example.

I think that because our understanding of the brain and the mind is so incomplete there may be all sorts of subtle electrocolloidal effects going on that may well give rise to 'spooky behaviour'



Extremely weak? The Brain uses between 10 and 60 watts of energy - not a small amount.

A 60 watt laser can beam information into the next galaxy, for example. A 60W ULF transmitter can send music out over a very large area indeed. Also if the brain is an incredibly sensitive electrically charged organ, (which it is), and if the skull is paper thin in some places and almost universally transparent to radiation of many kind (which it is), then I think the possibilities of direct brain interaction are not closed off. Not proven, or even demonstrated, but emphatically not impossible.

Please note I am not saying this phenomena exists, what I am saying is that the possibility exists, and has not been looked for yet.

So, given that the mind of a human can induce and more or less cure a whole range of ailments, and that it is possible for a mind to be influenced by the internal state of other minds, then I think you are too hasty - from a scientific perspective - to rule out the power of prayer.


And what is this stuff that you are converting from matter to energy?



Computer simulate a brain? Now that is total fantasy. I'm sorry though, of course the mathematical complexity of a brain is possible to estimate to within a few orders of magnitude, I would have thought, but even something as simple (relatively) as its internal state at any given time gives you no clue whatsoever to what is going on inside in terms of subjective experience. So perhaps I should have said The incomputability of the human mind.

Plenty of people on this forum seem to have felt the power of prayer, so I would be hesitant to discount it quite so off-handedly.

I'll accept that there may be a lot more to learn about the brain and it's interaction with our environment, but prayer is specifically a monologue in your head made to god, so why it should have any more power than my wish to win the lottery on wednesday?

I always liked the bit in the film Deep Impact when the president says
God hears and answers all prayers even if sometimes the answer is no.
I've also noticed that when people are dealing with difficult issues they will sometimes start praying.

Originally posted by Cyclone
I made the statement as if I was giving my opinion as the thread requested. Do you have any facts to back up your opinion, or your comments about jiu jitsu?

Maybe you'd were expecting me to say "oh sorry, I had a look around and realised that my nine years of jiu jitsu had failed to expose the spiritual element to me which you picked up on in your few minutes reading.

There is nothing spiritual about what I do. There are elements of philosophy, self awareness and self control, awareness of our surroundings, psychology and a whole lot of blatting people into the floor. But no spiritualism. I don't need to dig any deeper, I'm not just floating around on the surface, there is no mystical rubbish about developing our inner power or being one with the [SIZE=1]insert object here[/SIZE/.

What is it you do bonny? Maybe you'd be happy if I say that you're missing something out of your hobby (something that doesn't exist as part of it). If so then consider that to be an explanation of my defensiveness.

My facts about Jui Jitsu are only what I have read from numerous sources.

My facts about the power of prayer........No, like I have said already there are no facts.

What do you mean by "what is it you do"? and why would I be happy if you said I was missing something from my hobby?
I don't see an explanation of your defensiveness. I also don't see how saying that prayer is for the weak is defensive more offensive to those that do pray. I am not a person who prays just to set you straight on that issue if you had assumed I do.

Originally posted by Cyclone
I'll accept that there may be a lot more to learn about the brain and it's interaction with our environment, but prayer is specifically a monologue in your head made to god, so why it should have any more power than my wish to win the lottery on wednesday?

because of the object of focus

because your mind may be able to reach out and contact other minds, but not the random ball selector.

I don't think you can categorically rule out the notion that prayer has power. I accept the impossibility of proving a negative, but if you consider that proving the power of prayer would in no way support the notion of god - then perhaps it is worth investigating.

I for one have an open mind on this, and would be interested in how a suitable experiment might be formulated.

Your dogmatic defence of an extreme rationalist perspective appears to preclude curiousity or neophilia.

Prayer/religious belief can be compared to the Placebo Effect. In tests, people who thought they were taking medication to make them better, but in reality were taking harmless fake pills, actually did show some signs of improvement. Long term of course, these patients did not improve as well as those on real medication.

This improvement has been attributed to the power of suggestion and belief. If the patients THINK they are getting better, then quite often they do, if only for a short time.

If some people need the crutch of religion and prayer to stumble through their lives, then that's OK. It's as good as booze and drugs, I suppose. I just wish they would admit that their particular crutch has no basis in reality and is exactly that - a crutch.

Apart from his comment that "plenty of people on this forum seem to have felt the power of prayer, so I would be hesitant to discount it quite so off-handedly" (firstly it's all very subjective and anecdotal, and secondly and more importantly it's rather an inadequate a number to affect a judgement on the power of prayer), I agree with most of what Phanerothyme has to say.

I don't know whether it's since been discredited, but Richard Broughton told in his book "Parapsychology" of research conducted at SRI of experiments testing, amongst other things, the effects of conscious thought on a random number generator, which found marginally significant results that seemed equally significant regardless of varying the time factor; i.e., the results could be affected by conscious effort undertaken at a time other than that at which the equipment's data was examined.

The brain is a highly sensitive beggar, easily affected by electromagnetic pollution. People living under power lines, for example, are more prone to depression. It seems to be significant that many paranormal incidents (and ufo sightings) seem to occur adjacent to overhead power lines, generators and underground fault-lines. The odd cases such as the well-known case at Stocksbridge Bypass (adjacent to a sub-station AND overhead power lines) where two policemen gave identical accounts seem to show that something odd can be triggered (some would say "accessed") in the brain that isn't accounted for by conventional scientific models.

It's anecdotal, but many times in my life I've gone to bed racking my brains over how can get my hands on "x", only to find that "x" incredibly lands in my lap within days. I'm not praying for it as such, its almost as if my brain recognises the urgent desire and fiddles around with fate or co-incidence. Almost like the Infinite Improbability Generator from The Hitchikers' Guide to the Galaxy.

How strange am I sounding?

Logging off.

EDIT: I'm not convinced that "Neophilia" (n. love of novelty and new things, ideas, etc. - had to look that one up) is relevant, Phan. Cyclone is simply saying that there is no evidence that prayer has any effect on any level other than that of placebo on the psychological. I'm sure he'd be receptive to "new ideas" given grounds. I know where he's coming from.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
because of the object of focus

because your mind may be able to reach out and contact other minds, but not the random ball selector.

I don't think you can categorically rule out the notion that prayer has power. I accept the impossibility of proving a negative, but if you consider that proving the power of prayer would in no way support the notion of god - then perhaps it is worth investigating.

I for one have an open mind on this, and would be interested in how a suitable experiment might be formulated.

Your dogmatic defence of an extreme rationalist perspective appears to preclude curiousity or neophilia.

the bit where I said "i'll accept that there is still a lot to learn about the brain and how it interacts with the environmetn", that was me being open minded.

Bonny - the difference is that I was asked for an opinion on prayer. You were not asked for an opinion on my hobby, you didn't like defending prayer so instead picked something that i'd clearly defend and obviously spend a lot of time doing and accused me of not understanding it and needing to dig a bit deeper, all based on a bit of reading, although now it's changed to "numerous sources", are you now a book expert on jiu jitsu, maybe you should actually give it a go.

Originally posted by Cyclone
the bit where I said "i'll accept that there is still a lot to learn about the brain and how it interacts with the environmetn", that was me being open minded.

Bonny - the difference is that I was asked for an opinion on prayer. You were not asked for an opinion on my hobby, you didn't like defending prayer so instead picked something that i'd clearly defend and obviously spend a lot of time doing and accused me of not understanding it and needing to dig a bit deeper, all based on a bit of reading, although now it's changed to "numerous sources", are you now a book expert on jiu jitsu, maybe you should actually give it a go.

It was a question that was relevant to the debate. I have never said that I was a book expert on your hobby. I said I had read from numerous sources, which is true. It isn't soemthing I wish to try and as your description of it is more about violence (after all no one else could ever hope to know as much about it as you) I don't think I would wish to try.

I have defended prayer and spirituality if you read back. You have not answered many of questions asked though.

Is the power of prayer in line with the placebo effect?
I mean doctors used to perscribe placebo pills.

Originally posted by Pete1024
Is the power of prayer in line with the placebo effect?
I mean doctors used to perscribe placebo pills.

And religious figures recommend prayer. That doesn't mean it actually works.

Originally posted by Pete1024
Is the power of prayer in line with the placebo effect?
I mean doctors used to perscribe placebo pills.

They have also researched the direct affect of prayer.

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/14/1668_50132

Originally posted by oatescamilla
how powerful do people think prayer is? and what other experinces have people had?

There are forces at work in this World and Universe, that humanity has no conception of, it is very ignorant of anyone to dismiss out of hand or make fun of things that happen, of which they cannot understand. - Large - Red

Originally posted by oatescamilla
how powerful do people think prayer is? and what other experinces have people had?

Large - Red [/SIZE] There are forces at work in this World and Universe, that humanity has no conception of, it is very arrogant of anyone to dismiss out of hand or make fun of things that happen, of which they cannot understand.
[SIZE=3]I know about the power of Prayer, having experienced it myself on more than one occasion, the spirit World is very powerfull and possibly is responsible for all creation, including the Universe, mans puny attempts to explain it are bound to end in failure. - Red

what a minute iam not saying it doesnt work cause i have experienced it and i know for a fact it does so may you should read what other ppl have put.

Originally posted by bonny
They have also researched the direct affect of prayer.

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/14/1668_50132

Originally posted by Phanerothyme on page 2

New Scientist reported something like this about 6 or 7 years ago, a randomised trial of 1000 cardiac patients, half were prayed for half were not.

Interestingly a significant deviation was reported for the prayer group, with improved outcomes over the control.

More interestingly, this deviation also held true for the numbers of patients leaving the facility (either better or dead) before the prayers even started indicating that God either heard the prayers before they were uttered (perfectly plausible), or unconscious preselection of less sick patients to the prayer group.

Eventually I think this discrepancy was shown to be down to the non-random nature of the randomisation - a shortcoming with the experiment.

In order to show a significant effect, I think a mass study would be required, rather than such a small research group.

If you were really clever, you'd have a meta-prayer group that prayed for the success of the experiment in showing the power of prayer, making the result doubly convincing, whatever it was!

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
In order to show a significant effect, I think a mass study would be required, rather than such a small research group.

If you were really clever, you'd have a meta-prayer group that prayed for the success of the experiment in showing the power of prayer, making the result doubly convincing, whatever it was!

I understand what you are saying but for most, I'm sure the results would hold more validity if prayer was removed in place of something like paracetamol.

Was it Albert Einstein who said " If God did not exist we would have to invent him"?

Thing is, if it was a trial of paracetamol, you'd be able to double blind test it against a placebo and a control (no treatment).

The fact that prayer is a directed action of intention by a 'third party', rules out the double blind procedure, and hence the validity of the experiment is up for question, not to mention the strange case of more people in the prayer group leaving hospital before the prayers began.

Doing it double blind would be very hard.

"I want you to pray for patient x"
"patient x?"
"yes, that's right"
"who is patient x?"
"I have no idea"


Originally posted by prioryx
Was it Albert Einstein who said " If God did not exist we would have to invent him"?

It was Voltaire who said "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."

To which some wag (Bakunin) replied:...that if God really existed, it would be necessary to abolish him

Albert Einstein, faced with the coldly random nature of quantum theory retorted "God does not play dice", to which Paul Dirac famously replied in writing "Einstein - don't tell god what to do"

Ok, So what they need to do it tell some people they are being prayed for (placebo) tell some they are not being prayed for (control) pray for some and let them meet the person who is praying for them and as an added measure don't tell some they are being prayed for when they actually are.

Possibly using larger numbers as you had suggested.

Also what is the difference between prayer and meditation?

Originally posted by bonny
It was a question that was relevant to the debate. I have never said that I was a book expert on your hobby. I said I had read from numerous sources, which is true. It isn't soemthing I wish to try and as your description of it is more about violence (after all no one else could ever hope to know as much about it as you) I don't think I would wish to try.

I have defended prayer and spirituality if you read back. You have not answered many of questions asked though.

lots of people know more about it than me, or more specifically they've done it for longer and are much better at it than me. Some of those people I call sensei, others train in different styles of jiu jitsu.
Of course it's about violence. It's about being attacked and defending yourself, it's not a tea and biscuits group.
Which questions haven't I answered. I certainly answered the one about spirituality in jiu jitsu, no there isn't any. Since you didn't like the answer you suggested that I don't know very much about it.
Maybe since I don't like your answer about prayer I should suggest that you don't understand it and that you should dig deeper?

You are right, I don't understand prayer.

I am willing to try and understand rather than dismiss it as just a dialogue in someones head and nothing more. I don't feel I know enough about it and do look into things I don't understand. What is so wrong with that????

If everyone chose not to dig deeper into subjects how would anyone ever learn and what would the point of education be? I'm sure you have benefitted from education at some point. There is no end to someones learning. You don't just get to a certain age and know everthing there is to know so you would be much better off keeping an open mind and retaining an amount of humility.