Dont know if it will be any good but at 9pm on BBC 1 Tonight (Tuesday) there is a programme called Pedigree Dogs Exposed.

Its supposed to be an in depth investigation into the health of pedigree dogs revealing the sing historical reasons that have contributed to the problems in some breeds.

Might be worth a look we will all be trying to watch it above the snores and flactulance of my three. :hihi:

Just watching it now. OMG that poor cavalier how awful.

Im amazed ............ Ive got a cavy, shes got a dicky heart and is almost blind ..... probably due to over breeding, its so sad

What is attractive or 'sought after' about a lame german shepard? ....... it really is criminal what these breeders do

how much have I missed and what channel?

Not much BBC 1

Crufts and the Kennel Club have a lot to answer for.

and arguably we're far too sentimental - there was a time we'd drown such poorly pups, but now breeders sell them at a reduced price, and some backyard breeder propogates those poor genes

Brude is seriously disturbed by that fitting boxer :(

he's not stopped barking yet :(

I have been looking forward to watching this all day but had to turn over after 1min,its far to distressing,does that sound ignorant?It did make me wonder why certain people always bang on about respective breeders when its these so called respective breeders whose causing a lot of these problems just to make a dog look good or cute,its not natural.

My mum just called me about that show as we have 2 cavvies and she was worried. Bless 'em. :(

ive been watching it i think its horrid what people are doing killing a dog because it dose not have a ridge , my brother has a boxer (not docked as he thinks its unfair) i dont know what i would do if she had a fix.

also white boxers are lovely way are people killing these poor animals!!

I have been looking forward to watching this all day but had to turn over after 1min,its far to distressing,does that sound ignorant?It did make me wonder why certain people always bang on about respective breeders when its these so called respective breeders whose causing a lot of these problems just to make a dog look good or cute,its not natural.the word you're looking for is 'responsible' breeders - and nowhere on this programme has a distinction been drawn between 'breeders' and 'responsible breeders'

I prefer the continental version of awarding champ status where a dog has to be a champ in both field and the showring to actually be a champion

Beagles used to be beagles in the 1950's, but now hunting beagles are very different to showbeagles - thankfully not to the point of ill-health

ive been watching it i think its horrid what people are doing killing a dog because it dose not have a ridge , my brother has a boxer (not docked as he thinks its unfair) i dont know what i would do if she had a fix.

also white boxers are lovely way are people killing these poor animals!!I'm pretty certain some of the dogs coming into rescue labelled as american bulldogs are actually white boxers

I have to say that I am finding the program very distressing, that fitting boxer made the same noise I heard a dying dog make when I was a child :sad:
I don't know what else to say I find the whole thing totally abhorrant!

I'm pretty certain some of the dogs coming into rescue labelled as american bulldogs are actually white boxers

Yes I think that they are white boxer x staffy myself and there are loads of them around here.

I'm pretty certain some of the dogs coming into rescue labelled as american bulldogs are actually white boxers

i would love a white boxer but my house is far too small, thats why my brother as the boxer and not me.

It's disgusting what some people will do to an animal, just to make a fast buck. :mad:

ive been watching it i think its horrid what people are doing killing a dog because it dose not have a ridge , my brother has a boxer (not docked as he thinks its unfair) i dont know what i would do if she had a fix.

also white boxers are lovely way are people killing these poor animals!!

I have a boxer that is docked,she was docked when i bought her,is there some kind of health risk?sorry i havnt been watching it was to upsetting,anyway shes 6years old now with no health problem.I used to have a white boxer lovely dog,why would people have a dog put down because of its colour?

The show GSDs looked in agony walking :(

I'm glad my p is a mutt

It is an interesting topic.

I have a lesson that I teach about selective breeding/ variation. I use pedigree dogs as an example. It allows pupils to research, look at bias and then discuss. We have a debate about pros and cons. It's an interesting topic and always throws up lots of differing views. Pupils love it as it often something that interests them and they are allowed to make up their own mind.

I'll have to try and get a copy of the programme as it will give me some extra clips for and against :) Though the bit I watched seems to be very against so far!

I have a boxer that is docked,she was docked when i bought her,is there some kind of health risk?sorry i havnt been watching it was to upsetting,anyway shes 6years old now with no health problem.I used to have a white boxer lovely dog,why would people have a dog put down because of its colour?

Some of the white boxers can be deaf that is the excuse of the breeders for killing the white pups, most are healthy pups, white is not in the breed standard!
Docking of tails is purely cosmetic unless it is a working dog, there is no health issue with a full tail, a full tail is natural it's how the dog was born :sad:

poor dogs i blame the inconsiderate breeders they should stop inter breading.why do they do it is it to cut down on fees

I have a boxer that is docked,she was docked when i bought her,is there some kind of health risk?sorry i havnt been watching it was to upsetting,anyway shes 6years old now with no health problem.I used to have a white boxer lovely dog,why would people have a dog put down because of its colour?

no health risk at all (as far as i know) my brother and my self see it unfair as theres no need to cut a puppys tail off.

I love my dog's waggy tail, it tells me what mood she's in

A dally breeder once told me she had 2 perfectly healthy pups destroyed because they developed a spot over one eye ............ apparently not a good trait, i didnt realse until then what heartless swines some breeders are but this programme takes it to another level. Im disgusted

i cryed watching that poor boxer having a fit IMO it is unfair to let a dog go through that if it was my girl i would have to heartbrekingley have her PTS but by the sounds of it having a cross breed i am lucky that maybe she will go with old age.

i am completley disgusted with half of the breeders shown on this program my cousin breeds and i know for a fact she doesnt interbreed or breed unhealthey bitches or dogs.

My first introduction to breed defects was in about 1978, possibly earlier

My grandad's parents had been spaniel breeders well before I was born - the last of the lines being photographed with my mother as a baby

We were watching the wall to wall coverage which used to be available on BBC2 in the afternoons, and my grandad showed me the over doming of the skull on the dogs in the ring - he was disgusted. He explained to me how this was now turning into problems with their brain - but all as a result of the breed standard being over-adhered to

Some of the white boxers can be deaf that is the excuse of the breeders for killing the white pups, most are healthy pups, white is not in the breed standard!
Docking of tails is purely cosmetic unless it is a working dog, there is no health issue with a full tail, a full tail is natural it's how the dog was born :sad:
Thanks for that moonbird,i was getting worried then,as i said its how i bought her if it was up to me it wouldnt have been docked

its unbelievable what people do for money cus that's what it is down too trying to get what they say is the best to get the best money

and arguably we're far too sentimental - there was a time we'd drown such poorly pups, but now breeders sell them at a reduced price, and some backyard breeder propogates those poor genes

No, these are the creme de la creme of breeders . crufts champions

I have a boxer that is docked,she was docked when i bought her,is there some kind of health risk?sorry i havnt been watching it was to upsetting,anyway shes 6years old now with no health problem.I used to have a white boxer lovely dog,why would people have a dog put down because of its colour?Boxers are a breed which can also be born bob tailed - that's not to say your's was, but just for info on the thread

can any one belive what the rhodesian ridgeback bredders were saying???????/

i cryed watching that poor boxer having a fit IMO it is unfair to let a dog go through that if it was my girl i would have to heartbrekingley have her PTS but by the sounds of it having a cross breed i am lucky that maybe she will go with old age.

i am completley disgusted with half of the breeders shown on this program my cousin breeds and i know for a fact she doesnt interbreed or breed unhealthey bitches or dogs.

i agree and think the owners was sick keeping an animal that is in such distress

can any one belive what the rhodesian ridgeback bredders were saying???????/

I can't believe the closed minds of any of the breeders of any of the breeds showing problems they just don't want to face it at all.

the owner with respect loves her dog, it must be a hard decision. she didn't bank on the condition

edit: the boxer that is

it was awful i just felt sick it is so unfair and inhumaine the poor dog howling after killed me

That is the first time and hopefully the last time i see a dog having a fit, how distressing, it has really upset me.

the owner with respect loves her dog, it must be a hard decision. she didn't bank on the condition

edit: the boxer that is

that is fair enough but if you love him/her im sure would feel it was the right thing to do given how much pain the dog and the owner goes through

Boxers are a breed which can also be born bob tailed - that's not to say your's was, but just for info on the thread

Yes but that is how the breed was developed that is not a natural tail, and it is a short tail rather than the docked type tail.

No, these are the creme de la creme of breeders . crufts championsthat doesn't make them creme de la creme

how often do I tell people that if they want a specific breed what they should do is attend the shows and meet the breeders. Talk to as many as possible. That way you'll get to know which breeders are in it for the good of the breed and those who there are 'concerns' about?

don't tar every pedigree breeder with the same brush

I notice this programme is focussing on specific breeds, and has completely ignored those breeders who are trying to make a difference

The current KC chairman is doing a grand job in shaking up an old institution which really does need it, but it's not going to happen overnight - and hauling him over the coals when he's walking a fine line himself doesn't achieve anything

There are forummers with epileptic dogs, I'm sure they could better explain. But I am glad my dog is a crossbreed, she seems healthy enough (but who knows)

can any one belive what the rhodesian ridgeback bredders were saying???????/

its them who need putting to sleep :rant:

There are forummers with epileptic dogs, I'm sure they could better explain. But I am glad my dog is a crossbreed, she seems healthy enough (but who knows)

One of my dogs has fits but it's very rarely so rare (that I know of) that she needs no medication, but her fits are nothing like the boxer's was, I think the boxers tend to have fit's as they get older due to brain tumours.
For what it's worth I think that the program will make a lot of people stop and think, that can only be a good thing.

i agree and think the owners was sick keeping an animal that is in such distressnow can anybody see where the stats come from for health of breeds vs mutts?

people with pedigree dogs are more likely to spend out on medical care than they are for crossbreeds in the first place

stats are also skewed on the age front as small dogs tend to last longer, and if visits to the pound are anything to go by, there are more small cross breeds

i agree and think the owners was sick keeping an animal that is in such distress

The boxer seemed happy when it wasn't fitting - i.e. when in was sitting - so I would disagree. I wouldn't euthenase a human with epilepsy, so why a dog? I agree that the Cavi though - he clearly had no quality of life.

The programme was really good and I am glad it raised these issues but it I would have liked a little less bias so I could make up my own mind. Like Vikki I know responsible breeders who don't cross breed and health check their dogs - I don't think they got a fair hearing.

It's amazing to see how totally blinkered some people can become where money and pride is concerned.

I can understand in the beginning the point of having the Breed Standards in order to make the best of a breed, but those responsible for including defects as 'standard' should face animal cruelty charges.

If these people hadn't made such 'rules' for the money and power hungry breeders to follow blindly, then alot of the poor poor suffering animals out there wouldn't have had to go through the pain they have.

I'm rarely emotional but watching that poor man hold his boxer whilst it had two fits and was howling just brought a tear to my eye.

How people can see these poor deformed animals as status symbols is beyond me.

there was a staffy in the pound a couple of months ago with epilepsy - his owner couldn't/wouldn't pay for his medication at £2 per week (I think that's how much it was)

That is the first time and hopefully the last time i see a dog having a fit, how distressing, it has really upset me.I saw a crossbreed have a fit at Edale. We offered to help carry her back down the hill but her owners thought they could manage :(

its them who need putting to sleep :rant:

Totally agree :rant:

No, these are the creme de la creme of breeders . crufts champions

This is the point i was trying to make early,cruft champions"THE BEST BREEDERS"all for financial gain rather than the love of a breed

I took out a lifelong policy for my dog, so if we get a condition she will be covered, and she to all KC standards is a mutt, though most think she is a full staffy :rolleyes:

Yes but that is how the breed was developed that is not a natural tail, and it is a short tail rather than the docked type tail.how do you genetically modify tails if they're from a genetically complete dog that's docked? :confused:

The boxer seemed happy when it wasn't fitting - i.e. when in was sitting - so I would disagree. I wouldn't euthenase a human with epilepsy, so why a dog? I agree that the Cavi though - he clearly had no quality of life.

The programme was really good and I am glad it raised these issues but it I would have liked a little less bias so I could make up my own mind. Like Vikki I know responsible breeders who don't cross breed and health check their dogs - I don't think they got a fair hearing.

Wasn't that the dog that she had to help walk into the house from the garden though?

I don't really see it as biased because what you see with your own eyes cannot be disputed, there are obviously breeders who care about the health and life of their dogs, but really none that continue to breed in abnormalities that will cause suffering and a shortened life expectancy can be seen to be good breeders.

And that calls into question the whole issue of the breed standards needing a total overall and dogs being bred to live the sort of life that they should, and not just for looks or to make money.

That is the first time and hopefully the last time i see a dog having a fit, how distressing, it has really upset me.

I watched one of my rescue dragons have it fit a while back. I knew she had them, I was warned when I took her, but it was really distressing. The worst part was that there was nothing I could do :(

This is the point i was trying to make early,cruft champions"THE BEST BREEDERS"all for financial gain rather than the love of a breedWho gives them the title 'the best breeders'?

I know there are those here who think I'm a pedigree snob of some description, but I keep trying to tell people the difference between a good or reputable breeder and one who's too interested in telling you how many rosettes/BIS trophies they have

A dally breeder once told me she had 2 perfectly healthy pups destroyed because they developed a spot over one eye ............ apparently not a good trait, i didnt realse until then what heartless swines some breeders are but this programme takes it to another level. Im disgusted

That's disgusting! I'm not sure if it was ever proven but it has certainly been discussed that patches, although not desirable in show dogs, actually are better to breed from in some respects due to a lower risk of deafness!

Never has there ever been a health reason not to breed from a patch dally, only possible health benefits.


Peggsta, I missed this programme but I have to say... when I say on here 'responsible breeder' I do not mean a breeder that gets good show dogs or cute companion dogs. I mean a breeder that checks for health conditions and breeds from dogs with sound conformation as well as temperament and has good results from health testing.

It aint difficult to produce a cute puppy - that's not what a responsible dog breeder does :(

I wish I'd seen this... it sounds like it's actually labelling pedigree dogs as unhealthy whilst they could've done with portraying to the public that if you're getting a purebred pup go to a responsible breeder (responsible being what I described above). Did they do this? BYBs and puppy farms need to be shown for what they are and people must learn that by buying a puppy to save it, they may well fuel the breeder to produce another litter of 8 pups that they cannot 'save'.

I know it's all meant well but I wish people would call the authorities in on breeders who have no consideration for their dogs rather than buying from them :(

The boxer seemed happy when it wasn't fitting - i.e. when in was sitting - so I would disagree. I wouldn't euthenase a human with epilepsy, so why a dog? I agree that the Cavi though - he clearly had no quality of life.

The programme was really good and I am glad it raised these issues but it I would have liked a little less bias so I could make up my own mind. Like Vikki I know responsible breeders who don't cross breed and health check their dogs - I don't think they got a fair hearing.

im not being nasty but they were pushing the dog up the stairs to me that was a unhappy dog i know som one whose dog had fits and during them he became so ill she had him PTS im not sayin everyone should but the dog looked like he was 12 not 2!!!!

how do you genetically modify tails if they're from a genetically complete dog that's docked? :confused:

I have no idea I must admit, but according to wikipedia that is the case.
You do get dogs though with a naturally short tail such as a border terrier, but how they do it...I really don't know and probably wouldn't like it if I did.

you can watch it on Iplayer Lotti

I have no idea I must admit, but according to wikipedia that is the case.
You do get dogs though with a naturally short tail such as a border terrier, but how they do it...I really don't know and probably wouldn't like it if I did.Well we all know how accurate Wikki can be ;)

I wish I'd seen this... it sounds like it's actually labelling pedigree dogs as unhealthy whilst they could've done with portraying to the public that if you're getting a purebred pup go to a responsible breeder (responsible being what I described above). Did they do this? BYBs and puppy farms need to be shown for what they are and people must learn that by buying a puppy to save it, they may well fuel the breeder to produce another litter of 8 pups that they cannot 'save'.

:(

I think the programme was more about the Kennel Club and it's responsibilities as they publish the Breed Standard in the first place, which in turn makes some breeders go to the lengths they do, at whatever cost to the animal.

If it is on again i'd recommend watching it Lotti, it was really interesting.

The Kennel Club bascially won't put anything int he way of breeders doing whatever they want, as they don't want to lose their members (money)

They were interviewed in their multi-million pound headquarter in London.

Wasn't that the dog that she had to help walk into the house from the garden though?

I don't really see it as biased because what you see with your own eyes cannot be disputed, there are obviously breeders who care about the health and life of their dogs, but really none that continue to breed in abnormalities that will cause suffering and a shortened life expectancy can be seen to be good breeders.

And that calls into question the whole issue of the breed standards needing a total overall and dogs being bred to live the sort of life that they should, and not just for looks or to make money.


If she did I didn't spot that, I recall her calling the older boxer over to sit and him coming and doing the same. It goes to show that the you can't really tell from a 5 minute snippet on the telly.

I agree with everything you have said, I thought the people who wanted their dogs PTS because they weren't right - or in the Ridgeback's case were right - and got really upset by some of the attitudes. I just feel they could have made better use of the term 'some breeders' and although the KC have a lot to answer for they also have positives too.

did anybody else notice how many undershot jaws and other strange 'defects' were present around the ringside at the Cav show?

Ooh thanks Fox!

I have to say there are some damn good breeders out there who do breed for the love of the breed and do do well in Crufts as well/as a result.

I had considered breeding, my bitch did well in shows from a young age. If I had bred, I would've most likely lost money due to the time, energy and money I had planned to put in to ensure these pups would be well socialised, of sound temperament and health and a great family pet and possible show/working dog (little difference in dallies between show and working - if any).

I decided my bitch wasn't right for it, and have since decided I'm probably not right for it either. But had she been, her pups may well have got to Crufts but not because that's what I'd have bred them for.

I personally think that more aspects of a pedigree dog should be looked at for show than simply their conformation and movement however I also think breed standards have a lot to answer for and if these were altered, breeders who wanted to do well in show would have to pull their socks up where health conditions were concerned.

BTW - bobtail boxers are originally bred by adding corgi - the percentage of corgi in these dogs is now very low but that is how they acheived their tails.

Who gives them the title 'the best breeders'?

I know there are those here who think I'm a pedigree snob of some description, but I keep trying to tell people the difference between a good or reputable breeder and one who's too interested in telling you how many rosettes/BIS trophies they have
I dont think anybody thinks your a"pedigree snob"I think some breeders try to breed they dogs to look like the ones who win crufs,in whitch case the judges at these shows should take some responsibility.

But strix, havent i seen you tell people to check the kennel club breeders when they are looking for a pup of specific breed or looking for stud etc? .......... appologies if Im wrong, but its definatly someone from the pet section .......... which implies that the KC is the best of the best??? .......... obviously not.

Blood tests and a full doggy MOT should be compulsory for all show dogs .. that'd soon stop it

and arguably we're far too sentimental - there was a time we'd drown such poorly pups, but now breeders sell them at a reduced price, and some backyard breeder propogates those poor genes

Ey up, long time no hear.

I've been shocked by this programme into returning to the forum.

My take on this programme is that the people profiting from breeding from these very sick dogs were far from backyard, they were top class, award winning breeders with the full back up of the kennel club (one winning dog had to have it's photo's taken on an ice pack for fear of dying of overheating FFS).

I have a labrador, his parents were both checked out for the common labrador genetic ailments, but this is not a KC requirement.

It seems to me in this country that the only socially acceptable way to aquire a dog is either by paying alot of money for a KC pup thet will cost you a fortune (and as we have learned tonight may be at risk of terrible congenital illness), or a rescue dog who's background you have absolutely no idea about and may be totally unsuitable to living in your family.

I really wish we could go back to the olden days, when you could get a pup from john smith down the road who's got a really friendly bitch and he mated it with sam brown down the pubs dog who was a soft as a brush, that was the way to get a good tempered family dog.

The world's gone mad and I don't know the answer.

I think the programme was more about the Kennel Club and it's responsibilities as they publish the Breed Standard in the first place, which in turn makes some breeders go to the lengths they do, at whatever cost to the animal.

If it is on again i'd recommend watching it Lotti, it was really interesting.

The Kennel Club bascially won't put anything int he way of breeders doing whatever they want, as they don't want to lose their members (money)

They were interviewed in their multi-million pound headquarter in London.The Kennel Club raised an issue with health in some breeds years ago - and it's at least now a topic that's on the table

I'm not flaming surprised the breeders closed ranks given the style of journalism on this programme

But strix, havent i seen you tell people to check the kennel club breeders when they are looking for a pup of specific breed or looking for stud etc? .......... appologies if Im wrong, but its definatly someone from the pet section .......... which implies that the KC is the best of the best??? .......... obviously not.

Blood tests and a full doggy MOT should be compulsory for all show dogs .. that'd soon stop it

Most good dog adverts on KC, epupz etc include things about health checks e.g. eye tests, hip scores, etc. If not the breeder should know.

I hope this programme has encouraged buyers to ask these sorts of questions.

I really wish we could go back to the olden days, when you could get a pup from john smith down the road who's got a really friendly bitch and he mated it with sam brown down the pubs dog who was a soft as a brush, that was the way to get a good tempered family dog.



Now wouldn't that be lovely? and it's all most people want.. a friendly healthy dog to love and be a part of the family, that can play with the kids, go for a nice walk and live a natural life.

As with any TV Programme going at at 9pm - it's not going to have the dogs interests at heart either, only it's viewing figures.

But the breeder said herself, she was annoyed because the TV presenter brought up the fact the dog they had chosen as 'best of breed' was diseased, and has sired over 34 litters of puppies, 26 of those litters were bred with the owner in full knowledge of the illness.

So yes, they were trying to close ranks, because the truth is disgusting.

But strix, havent i seen you tell people to check the kennel club breeders when they are looking for a pup of specific breed or looking for stud etc? .......... You definitely haven't Pinklady - I know you can't find a 'good' breeder from a list on the internet - and I sometimes post a carefully worded warning after somebody else provides the link to their (unvetted) list

Blood tests and a full doggy MOT should be compulsory for all show dogs .. that'd soon stop it... and the same should go for any dog breeding! whilst breathing and heart problems are an issue amongst 'pedigree' dogs, really nasty temperaments are a massive issue in backyard breeding! (and don't get me started on puppyfarming)

at least heart problems and breathing problems in dogs don't kill people too ;)

Debate is going on radio 5 live

jt

But strix, havent i seen you tell people to check the kennel club breeders when they are looking for a pup of specific breed or looking for stud etc? .......... appologies if Im wrong, but its definatly someone from the pet section .......... which implies that the KC is the best of the best??? .......... obviously not.

Blood tests and a full doggy MOT should be compulsory for all show dogs .. that'd soon stop it

I agree the KC has a lot to answer for and does need improvement but to be honest... if Epupz or the dreaded DLRC are the alternatives - I'd rather go for the KC and use my head at least you have a better chance that way!

Edit: It may have been me you had seen post this (for the reasons above).

I dont think anybody thinks your a"pedigree snob"I think some breeders try to breed they dogs to look like the ones who win crufs,in whitch case the judges at these shows should take some responsibility.It's actually a very old joke between me and somebody I had a massive fall out with peggsta ;)

Ey up, long time no hear.

I've been shocked by this programme into returning to the forum.

<snip>

I really wish we could go back to the olden days, when you could get a pup from john smith down the road who's got a really friendly bitch and he mated it with sam brown down the pubs dog who was a soft as a brush, that was the way to get a good tempered family dog.

The world's gone mad and I don't know the answer.Hi Scoop :wave:

the sad thing is that it's probably because the people who are 'responsible' dog owners now spay and neuter so there aren't any nice dogs to breed from, only great big nasty ones belonging to 'orrible people who want to make a fast buck :(

ive been thinking of getting a German shepherd but after watching that im having second thoughts

Most good dog adverts on KC, epupz etc include things about health checks e.g. eye tests, hip scores, etc. If not the breeder should know.

I hope this programme has encouraged buyers to ask these sorts of questions.All this prog has done is stir up another heap of hysteria amongst a group of people who won't seek further info, they'll just start hurling abuse at people in the street who have pedigree dogs :rolleyes:

epupz is one of my pet hates too btw - pups should be bred to a waiting list

Wasn't that the dog that she had to help walk into the house from the garden though?

I don't really see it as biased because what you see with your own eyes cannot be disputed, there are obviously breeders who care about the health and life of their dogs, but really none that continue to breed in abnormalities that will cause suffering and a shortened life expectancy can be seen to be good breeders.

And that calls into question the whole issue of the breed standards needing a total overall and dogs being bred to live the sort of life that they should, and not just for looks or to make money.

sorry but did the program highlight the fact that there are breeders out there that are breeding for the health of the dogs i.e checking lines for defects healthwise etc if it did i must have blinked and missed it . some white boxers are now fetching more than coloureds , i had a white boxer for 12 yr that was registered with k.c.and apart from his deafness never really had a days illness. i also have a bulldog that had fits but hasnt for 18 mth now but should i have had her put down , would we put humans down or stop breeding of people with known defects ?. i wonder how many dogs are nowgoing tobe dumped because people dont want tobe known to have a mutant dog (cannot beleive i heard that one & who it came from ) but on a big plus side they didnt mention Staffys. like i say humans have faults but we dont restrict breeding . i have a list of 40 dogs that breeding could be banned for thier inherrited problems should the european convention gets its way its scarey. but it could be what this program was about (bringing it to peoples attention . sorry for the rant,this was not an attack on you moonbird xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ,

I'm not flaming surprised the breeders closed ranks given the style of journalism on this programme

surely you cant defend the KC's stance on this, they picked a best of breed being fully aware of the genetic illness of the dog ....... knowing the breeder will then charge a fortune and breed the dog passing on this awful thing to lots of other poor dogs. Then theres the GS KC spokesman who stated that GSD 'should' look lame???? thats the true beauty of the breed? ....... mad as a box of frogs .... the lot of them

It's actually a very old joke between me and somebody I had a massive fall out with peggsta ;)
:D :hihi:

Hi Scoop :wave:

the sad thing is that it's probably because the people who are 'responsible' dog owners now spay and neuter so there aren't any nice dogs to breed from, only great big nasty ones belonging to 'orrible people who want to make a fast buck :(
That unfortunately is very true, I find it quite worrying the lack of variety of breeds dogs in my area, they are almost all of one kind.

As with any TV Programme going at at 9pm - it's not going to have the dogs interests at heart either, only it's viewing figures.

But the breeder said herself, she was annoyed because the TV presenter brought up the fact the dog they had chosen as 'best of breed' was diseased, and has sired over 34 litters of puppies, 26 of those litters were bred with the owner in full knowledge of the illness.

So yes, they were trying to close ranks, because the truth is disgusting.the woman who refused to be interviewed after the meeting was actually referring to the interview in the ring after the Cav win at the Cav show - which was a horrible way to go about things

Still - the journalist got what she wanted - she wasn't aiming to inform, she was going for shock value, and the opportunity to point out that the KC didn't want to speak to her

sheesh - she tried often enough to be offensive enough. She wasn't actually interested in any of the breeds for which health is a major part of the whole existence of the dog

All this prog has done is stir up another heap of hysteria amongst a group of people who won't seek further info, they'll just start hurling abuse at people in the street who have pedigree dogs :rolleyes:

epupz is one of my pet hates too btw - pups should be bred to a waiting list

I know my views on epupz aren't popular but I beleive the only way to stop bad breeders is to educate buyers. Epupz has breeders pages so you can build up waiting lists.

surely you cant defend the KC's stance on this, they picked a best of breed being fully aware of the genetic illness of the dog ....... knowing the breeder will then charge a fortune and breed the dog passing on this awful thing to lots of other poor dogs. Then theres the GS KC spokesman who stated that GSD 'should' look lame???? thats the true beauty of the breed? ....... mad as a box of frogs .... the lot of themThe KC didn't have an opportunity to have a 'stance' in this programme - they merely fielded loaded questions - and not too badly considering

the kennel club will have received paperwork for 'permission to show' following the peke's op, but the whole reason this paperwork exists is to prevent cosmetic/unnnecessary surgery

Now how the heck did this dog ever get as far as Crufts if this is an issue?
It's that bunch of hoops that has to be jumped through that should be examined

I've heard rumours of dogs being entered into shows with the wrong birthdates (puts them in wrong classes and gives them a better chance) but the system is such that it isn't worth an individual going through the process to have that breeder/exhibitor removed

now if the programme had bothered to do some proper research it would have unearthed things like this and made some suggestions for improvements, but it didn't, it was only after some sensationalism, and I resent the fact that it's just added fuel to the fire for the ignorant people who think it's okay to shove this crap in my face when I walk my perfectly healthy breed of dog from a carefully selected breeder who puts her dogs' health and welfare before conforming to other judges' standards

I don't care how many champions a breeder might have and how well their dogs' lifestyle is, if they are aware of a defect within their dog yet continue to breed from it then they're equal or worse than the scum that puppy farm or those scumbags who mistreat their animals !!! :rant:

Alarming to see how some breeds have been manipulated over the last century by the industry that is K.Club breeders as I had always assumed some of the breeds had always been like that ie., Bulldog, Bassett Hound

:(

I wish the lady well who is fighting the King Charles Spaniels corner! Well done you!! Now that is a real passionate dog lover !!

sorry but did the program highlight the fact that there are breeders out there that are breeding for the health of the dogs i.e checking lines for defects healthwise etc if it did i must have blinked and missed it .
No it did not to be fair but if the breeders are breeding to that particular breed standard that causes the problems then they are still breeding in abnormalities aren't they?
i also have a bulldog that had fits but hasnt for 18 mth now but should i have had her put down , would we put humans down or stop breeding of people with known defects ?
I would say that it would depend on a dogs quality of life with the fits as to whether it should be PTS or not, my own dog has fits but they are rare and very mild so it is not a big issue in her life, obviously that is the case with your dog.

This may not be a very popular thing to say and rather controversial, but I actually know of someone with such severe epilepsy that they are drugged up, cannot function well and actually would like to die because of it, that person themselves decided not to ever have a child because of the risk of passing on the curse that they suffer... you cannot stop people breeding no but surely common sense should prevail.
. i wonder how many dogs are nowgoing tobe dumped because people dont want tobe known to have a mutant dog
Yes that could well be a spin off from the program I really hope not, I guess it had to be hard hitting to make people think though :sad:
sorry for the rant,this was not an attack on you moonbird xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ,
And likewise p@h I'm sure everyone on this thread wants only the best for the dogs that we love, and no one could fault you for your efforts there, it's a subject that brings up high emotions for people who care that's all :)

my gorgeous cavvie developed syringomyaelia when he was about 6 years - this was some years ago when the condition wasn't as well known as it is now, he never did get so bad other than needing metacam but I knew the day would come when it would be too much with only one solution. Fate had a hand however and he died just before his 8th birthday from another illness - I often think if he had been a mutt he would have recovered from that aswell. All my dogs now and forever will be rescue mutts - I do not wish any animal to suffer that sort of agony just for me wanting the perfect dog

Alarming to see how some breeds have been manipulated over the last century by the industry that is K.Club breeders as I had always assumed some of the breeds had always been like that ie., Bulldog, Bassett HoundThis is the result of us not putting dogs through working trials anymore - and fussing and preening them to death

Notice how many of the featured breeds in this prog were toy breeds?

I could have cried for the whole breed when they interviewed that basset breeder :shakes: How the heck is one of those supposed to hunt now? they can barely haul themselves about let alone do something useful :(


I wish the lady well who is fighting the King Charles Spaniels corner! Well done you!! Now that is a real passionate dog lover !!
I wonder if she has kids? ;)

she clearly has an undershot jaw and a case of OCD ;)

the woman who refused to be interviewed after the meeting was actually referring to the interview in the ring after the Cav win at the Cav show - which was a horrible way to go about things



I know what she was referring to, but as it had already been stated that most of the judges at the show will have had full knowledge of the dogs illness before then deciding to award it best in breed, she would have found it 'distasteful' wouldn't she.

Mind you thats not as horrible as knowing your making money breeding from a dog you know has such a crippling illness.

Not only that, but the breeder didn't even have the courage to stand and tell the truth, so I can't say I have any sympathy.

Maybe if she had gone through having the illness she's knowingly given to the dogs she's made money from, then i'd feel some compassion towards her.

Did anyone else notice how one breeder on the show who won the Basset Hound (I think) show also happened to be a Judge, who said himself he judged at Crufts and gave his own dogs Sire best in breed?

Nothing like keeping it all behind closed doors, breed your dog from the judges dog, get him best in show, put him out for stud, makes lots of money.....

If such a society was created today it would be classed as an inbred cult.

BTW I haven't got anything against breeders who are good breeders, it's the blind followers who will do anything at the price of the dogs welfare that angers me.

I wonder if she has kids? ;)

she clearly has an undershot jaw and a case of OCD ;)
If I hadn't of met you I could have imagined you as her!!
:hihi:

I know what she was referring to, but as it had already been stated that most of the judges at the show will have had full knowledge of the dogs illness before then deciding to award it best in breed, she would have found it 'distasteful' wouldn't she.

Mind you thats not as horrible as knowing your making money breeding from a dog you know has such a crippling illness.

Not only that, but the breeder didn't even have the courage to stand and tell the truth, so I can't say I have any sympathy.
the problem is that most of those dogs will have the same problem, diagnosed or not. Really it's time for a massive clampdown on health issues, but it needs to be across the board and not voluntary. The showring still wasn't the place to conduct this interview

I agree, to continue to breed her dog after diagnosis really isn't on, but unless the whole breed is clamped down on at once, who are you going to exclude from the showring?

Did anyone else notice how one breeder on the show who won the Basset Hound (I think) show also happened to be a Judge, who said himself he judged at Crufts and gave his own dogs Sire best in breed?

Nothing like keeping it all behind closed doors, breed your dog from the judges dog, get him best in show, put him out for stud, makes lots of money.....

If such a society was created today it would be classed as an inbred cult.There aren't that many breeders of most breeds about, and obviously it's those who have been breeding for years who are most likely to be judges themselves. I can't imagine a terrier breeder being a mastiff judge for instance (though somebody's probably going to find me an example of a judge certified to judge pretty much everything and blow me out of the water with that one)

Brude's breeder has been judging beagles since before I was born. She applies the breed standard as she interprets it, which may be different to another beagle breeder. Suffice to say, within a breed there are known identifiable strains and breeders who are known to favour a certain style of that breed

Rottweilers were once big dogs, but after a good win at Crufts by a particularly small bitch, breeders have favoured breeding smaller, so the average rott is now not much bigger than a lab

there are rules about which judges you can show under. I can't show Brude if his breeder is the judge. That would be massively more difficult to apply upwards though - especially if I had maybe 4 dogs from different breeders - which pretty much runs us out of shows we could enter at top level!

If I hadn't of met you I could have imagined you as her!!
:hihi:
I know where you live :P

I know, I think the programme was trying to put pressure on the KC to be the flagship of change, but like any age old institution, they don't take well to change.


And they make a good point, the more rules they put on the more backyard breeders your going to get, because they won't stop, they'll just do it unregistered.

I'm not convinced the idea was to put pressure on to bring about change, it all came across as a great way to have a snipe in the name of viewing figures

My experience in show circles is that there are some people with a barbara woodhouse accent, but they're actually few and far between. Shots of those involved in the dog circles seemed to be carefully selected to portray dog show enthusiasts as chinless wonders, and there was no attempt made to show the positive steps the KC has made to bring about change to this archaic institution in recent years

You do know that the big 'rescue dog' promotion going on this year is supported by the KC too don't you? Did this programme cover the efforts in ensuring dogs are finding compatible owners with the discover dogs events? or that the KC has a hand in the 'good citizen' scheme - which means you'll see some odd looking dogs taking part in Crufts these days!

Watched it Spottie - there's another huge thread from all the others that have been watching it. How sick they should feel -
Talk about Emperors new clothes in the 21st Century

The emphasis of the show was on breeding lines, genetics and the fact that breeders for showing are creating monstrosities in order to meet 'breed standards' as set out by the KC.

Wether they have good intentions in other areas wasn't in question.

I've already said the show was just about viewing figures, as are they all nowadays.

I think the program was designed to shock as it was somewhat biased. That's not too bad though as I wanted to smack the woman with the King Charles that won that competittion and she was allowing it to sire pups knowing it had got a serious illness. How come she can't be prosecuted for cruelty?
I'd also of liked to have information plainly shown of just who [if we wish to] should complain to, I don't mean the Kennel club but which MP could concievably start to change the legislation.
I must admit the guy from the Kennel club was probably edited to look bad but his stance that it is quite okay to breed mother's and son's and other really close inbreeding but didn't seem to happy at the idea of having a child with his daughter. I'd like to hope that any semi intelligent person would understand why this sort of breeding in the human population isn't a good idea so how come it's different in the dog breeding world. Maybe that's the answer maybe some of those dog breeders featured had been interbreeding amongst themselves.
An animal fitting is very disttressing but in a full blown fit the animal is actually unconscious and as Max has the occasional fit I've seen it happen. The vet told me the best idea is to ignore him, try and limit any outside things and don't speak to him or touch him. The touch thing is so that I don't get bitten by accident and also the external stimulation can actually prolong the fit. So I turn off the TV or radio, if I can I dim the lights and then I just sit and wait usually after a minute he recovers although he looks thoroughly unhappy and so I reassure him and then leave him to sleep it off. A couple of hours later and he's back to normal I think the fits scare him as if he is starting to go a bit woozy he tries to come to me for help/ reassurance or whatever but it is still upsetting to watch.

Just wondered if people had seen this (http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/1976/23/5/3) statement from the KC.

has somebody merged this thread? do I have to go back and read all five pages to read the other posts? :?

Just wondered if people had seen this (http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/1976/23/5/3) statement from the KC.
and the link on that page too:
http://www.doggenetichealth.org/

and some important Cav info that seemed to have been missed/mumbled in the prog:
http://www.doggenetichealth.org/cavalier_king_charles_spaniel_club.php

My opinion is that the programme was designed to shock, and with some of the breed defects shown perhaps the shock was needed.
But the programme was also unfair. I have found from another site that the gsd shown was actually an old lady in the veteran class, I am not defending the rear movement, as a previous show person my first comment was 'what the hell is that' and god forbid that dogs with bad movement, over angulation etc are winning in the ring nowadays. Also Terry Hannons(the judge) comments I believe were manuplated, I have known Terry as a respected judge for many years, he always stood for the a gsd who was sound, and suitable for purpose ie could work, live as a pet, guard the home, and be a beautiful proud creature. I believe the clips shown were not of the dogs he was judging, but will find out more later.
In defence of good breeders, there are many voluntary schemes that breeders of gsds contribute to and use in order to try and reduce genetic problems within the breed. But the problem is that these schemes are not compulsary, so only the good and concerned breeders use them.
I think the programme could have been a little better balanced but it did highlight the problems that can occur when money overtakes sense.
I could have battered the pug breeder who said her dogs pass out for a few minutes when they get excited because of the flat face and inability to breathe properly, she just passed it off as normal.
Its a case of buyer beware, check the breeder, check the breed standard, check the parents, check back in the pedigree, check for inherited conditons and then buy.

Another thought is that some judges just get to be judges because they have bred dogs for a period of time and got some winners, but there are some breed judges courses which are pretty in depth and go into structure, defects, genetics etc, not all breeds have these courses though, perhaps all judges should have to go through such courses and see things like the pug x rays with the deformed spine caused by wanting a tightly coiled tail and then have the courage to put up dogs who havent got such a tightly coiled tail.
Years ago in gsds they got too long and low and I do mean extreme, also epilepsy was a major problem, the gene pool needed widening and more german bred dogs were brought into the country. Then we saw a 'fashion' for taller, lighter boned roachy backed dogs, again and extreme, common sense seemed to prevail and judges began putting up dogs which were classed 'middle of the road' ie not too long and low and not too tall and roachy backed. Its a big responsibility being a judge, judges make champions up and the champions are then the stud dogs.

In Germany (not always correct but with some good practices) the gsd winning sires have a progeny parade, ie the sire walks first and his progeny behind him, the idea is that it proves the dog is throwing his own type and the youngsters are of a good standard. Ok it can be manipulated but so can most things in this life, but at least you are seeing some proof of what is being produced.
Also dogs cannot go into the higher show classes unless they have obtained some working qualification, shutzhund 1, 2 and 3.
I have bred two litters in the past, both contained dogs who did well in the show ring and did agility, both litters produced dogs who competed in working trials and one had a working trials champion. Dont be put off by this programme, there are many gsd breeders who are very responsible and want to produce a dog suitable for purpose and a pleasure to live with.

Problems occur when the gene pool is very small. White german shepherds are a prime example. Because they were classed as not desireable in the breed standard breeders tried to avoid lines which threw out a white. However when they became popular some unscrupulous people began in breeding whites and selling them at big money especially if it was a long coated white. Result, a predominance of EPI in white lines. And the problem with this disease is it does not turn up until the dog is 3+ years in many cases by which the dog or bitch has been used for breeding. There is no test at the present time, it just relies on breeders not breeding from dogs once the condition occurs and hoping those with their offspring do not breed either, some hope if the money is the main incentive.

I was shocked by this programme - although I was aware of some of the conditions, I never thought they were so prevalent and honestly (naively) believed the Kennel Club was doing all it could to eradicate these terrible conditions and promote responsible breeding. It really did not show the KC (or some of the breed clubs featured) in a good light and I was appalled that the Cavi Club, Ridgeback Club and others felt it was fine to continue breeding from dogs that obviously carry serious medical defects. The GSD breed clubs ought to be ashamed of themselves for creating crippled dogs - even a novice could see those 'champs' could barely stand up. What will be interesting now is - what next? Will all this negative exposure force the KC to do the right thing and review 'the breed standard' and breeding practices? Sadly, I don't think it will- they seem more worried about losing a lot of valuable custom if breeders decide not to register future litters.

Having said that, I would still only buy a KC club registered pup or dog if I was to get another pedigree - because there are responsible breeders out there- we did a heck of a lot of research before getting Ailsa and felt the breeders we met were doing their utmost to breed healthy, happy dobes using breed stock from across the globe. Ailsa's mum n dad were both hip scored and tested for Von Willebrand's and something else that escapes my memory for the moment...but it shows that there are breeders who do care and who won't breed from sick stock.

Anyone who knowingly does so ought to be done for animal cruelty. It really is time the KC did more to ensure only healthy dogs are registered and bred from, so whether it was sensationalist journalism or not, if the programme persuades the KC to review their policies, it can't be a bad end result.

Estweyn- I always fancied shutzhund- Ailsa's dad was an international champ in conformation and shutzhund (and a champion sire too), but our daft dobermutt was always too giddy to take up the mantle.

I don't care how many champions a breeder might have and how well their dogs' lifestyle is, if they are aware of a defect within their dog yet continue to breed from it then they're equal or worse than the scum that puppy farm or those scumbags who mistreat their animals !!! :rant:

Alarming to see how some breeds have been manipulated over the last century by the industry that is K.Club breeders as I had always assumed some of the breeds had always been like that ie., Bulldog, Bassett Hound

:(

I wish the lady well who is fighting the King Charles Spaniels corner! Well done you!! Now that is a real passionate dog lover !!

You know, I actually preferred the old look of these breeds- and the bull terrier and dachsie-still strikingly different but not so extreme. Why on earth would someone want a basset hound to have 'furnishings'?

Yes I agree Katkin, some of the older type dogs look better before mans modifications and also that there are good concerned breeders out there, but there will always be those who are out to make money, follow fashions etc etc. This I think is where the KC falls down in not making breeders responsible by mandatory disclosure of genetic problems and then declaring the dog may be shown but not bred from. Ok the KC say that breeders will move away from them, carry on breeding etc etc but will they, I dont think so, buying a pup that is KC registered opens many doors, for example you cant show a dog regardless of how good it is if it is not KC reg, so all the big breeders will continue to register their pups. Also with the general public KC reg gives them confidence. And in fairness to the KC they have put some good things in place, perhaps this is a much needed shake up and may make breeders and the KC realise that people expect and demand that dogs are bred carefully and selectively.

and the link on that page too:
http://www.doggenetichealth.org/

and some important Cav info that seemed to have been missed/mumbled in the prog:
http://www.doggenetichealth.org/cavalier_king_charles_spaniel_club.php

Hmm it's all well and good doing research and all the rest of it, but as long as KC are allowing people to breed from these dogs with problems it's all just a waste of time and meaningless, and that will never change until the breed standards at such shows are more realistic, and dogs with problems are no longer seen to be beautiful.

Has anybody ever read a breed standard?

Now go back to the time when that standard was written....

Yes, you can see how a domed head was 'desirable' in a spaniel - given a group of dogs who aren't deformed - but there is no criteria in the standard for how to judge what quite frankly is a mutant! Take any of these modern day dogs back in time to when the standard was written, and see what a judge of the past would have made of them - judging to the same breed standard on record at the KC!

Does anybody else think bassets have gone too far now? I don't remember them looking so hideously unreal in the 1970's - I remember them looking like hounds - with heads shaped like that of Fred Basset - and more like a 'real' dog!

interesting collection of bassets (http://www.mydestiny.hu/maskepp.htm) - please have a look at these and comment

These people are so stupid, that obviously crippled weak legged GSD would be no good for police work the judge who said it was is blind.!
These people are obsessed by winning and will do anything to win. I hope this programme causes things to change.

I'll make it a bit easier:

(ignoring variations between countries too)

1932 (http://www.mydestiny.hu/image/maskepp/kartya/1932.jpg)

1953 (http://www.mydestiny.hu/image/maskepp/kartya/1953b.jpg)

1960 (http://www.mydestiny.hu/image/maskepp/kartya/1960.jpg)

1970 frontal (http://www.mydestiny.hu/image/maskepp/kartya/1970c.jpg) 1970 stance (http://www.mydestiny.hu/image/maskepp/kartya/1970d.jpg) 1970 pose (http://www.mydestiny.hu/image/maskepp/kartya/1974.jpg) - now those are the dogs I remember Bassets being

So how the heck did we get to a state where their ears drag along the ground, they can't see properly coz their faces are falling off them, taking their eyelids with them, their coats are too big and gather in folds over their legs, and their legs are quite obviously deformed? :rant:

How come the breed seems to have undergone such a rapid change in more recent years? (markedly across the 1980's if the rest of that page is anything to go by)

How do we get there??? Money. thats how. Theres big bucks in top dogs, greasing of palms and all that, and it does happen.

money doesn't deform dogs

over enthusiasm to achieve a text description of a set of criteria may do though

notice how none of the breed standards ever included a picture?

Heres a link for the angulations of a gsd picture, not too much like the rear ends shown last night.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v448/AmbiiGSD/forum/?action=view&current=GSD___Angles.jpg

sheesh - when was the last time anybody saw a GSD with a back that short?!

and there are some strange formations of rear legs you see about these days, but from that pic I can see where they would have developed from

just as an aside... did anybody spot that beagles were the chosen breed on the homepage of the health website for the KC :P

Money does come into it Strix, been there seen that..
Example, dog comes into country, word goes round the show people that this dog is appearing at a certian show and is tipped to win best of breed. Dog turns up and is frankly a disappointment ( folk have seen pictures in which he looks great) Dog should not win best of breed but somehow does. Lots of mutterings going on about better performing dogs on the day. But then in the dog papers there he is, advertised as winning his very first show in the country etc etc, bulling up his attributes etc etc and the stupid flock to use him even if they havent seen him in the flesh,
So how does money come into it , well- the dog was imported (big bucks) the judge somehow picked him out from a class of better dogs as the winner ( questionable bucks) The impressionable rush to use him (more bucks) he passes his mediocre points onto his progeny.
Seen it happen in gsds it can happen in any breed

The angulations are taken from the breed standard Strix, so hence you get the breeders own interpretations...

Money does come into it Strix, been there seen that..
Example, dog comes into country, word goes round the show people that this dog is appearing at a certian show and is tipped to win best of breed. Dog turns up and is frankly a disappointment ( folk have seen pictures in which he looks great) Dog should not win best of breed but somehow does. Lots of mutterings going on about better performing dogs on the day. But then in the dog papers there he is, advertised as winning his very first show in the country etc etc, bulling up his attributes etc etc and the stupid flock to use him even if they havent seen him in the flesh,
So how does money come into it , well- the dog was imported (big bucks) the judge somehow picked him out from a class of better dogs as the winner ( questionable bucks) The impressionable rush to use him (more bucks) he passes his mediocre points onto his progeny.
Seen it happen in gsds it can happen in any breedAh, now my interpretation of the same scenario has more to do with back scratching and status

Breeders and judges are often one and the same, and the cliques which inevitably form (as they do in any walk of life unfortunately) become 'dangerous' to challenge. This is why I blame the system of objection - it just doesn't work - which then enables judges to award BIB to somebody who may then be able to invite them to judge at a particularly prestigious show in return (which probably carries more sway than the expenses paid)

Okay - so it's important to gain the wins to achieve a stud book number and to be able to put your dog forward for breeding, so winning is all important, and stud fees are I suppose the way to make money from breeding, but does that mean there should be a limit on litters sired? I'd say there should be, as a dog who's spread right through an entire breed then creates the scenario of making it difficult not to mate his grandchildren with each other!

I've just sent an e-mail to Lord Rooker the minister in charge of animal welfare at DEFRA. to bring this program to his attention and asking whether the government or law could help in this situation.
I await their response with interest

I wonder what the RSPCA are going to do about it too?

This scenario knocks tail docking into a cocked hat doesn't it?

let's see - short snip as a rapidly healing youngster vs many years of joint pain, blindness, epilepsy, brain damage....

yep - can see how the RSPCA would be more interested in docking :rolleyes:

Docking is visual, more people will be aware of the cruelty of docking because they can see it, and relate to it.

Many of the illnesses mentioned are silent diseases that poor families have to deal with behind closed doors, I know of people who have bought puppies in good faith from 'reputable' KC reg breeders, then been ashamed when they find out they've been sold a pup with hereditary illnesses.

Sadly just like disabilities in people were swept under the carpet, or put into mental institutions, generations ago, some still do the same with animals.

This is also why I bang on about kicking up a fuss if a pup is sickly or suffers from something it just shouldn't have

annoyingly, the only recourse is via the sale of goods act, but it is important that such instances are followed up to deter anybody producing pups from thinking it's a great way to make a fast buck!

I notice this programme didn't go hounding the breeders of so called 'teacup' breeds - which fall outside of the KC - now there's a very deliberate illness breeding program! what the heck does anybody expect from breeding runt to runt successively?

I don't have any answers, I just think it's very sad. :(

I've always had rescue dogs personally so I can only imagine the heartbreak these poor people go through when they have assumed spending lots of money means good breeding.

for many people spending lots of money is more of an objective and a status symbol now :(
look what's happening with bulldogs :shakes:

rather annoyingly there seem to be far too many dogs dumped in rescue due to expensive health defects

RainRescue had a woman with a young rott ringing up wanting to rehome her dog as she couldn't afford the hip replacements - though I've no idea who she thought would be paying for them. Why didn't she go back to the breeder and demand the op be paid for? I bet that never even entered her head!

for many people spending lots of money is more of an objective and a status symbol now :(
look what's happening with bulldogs :shakes:

rather annoyingly there seem to be far too many dogs dumped in rescue due to expensive health defects

RainRescue had a woman with a young rott ringing up wanting to rehome her dog as she couldn't afford the hip replacements - though I've no idea who she thought would be paying for them. Why didn't she go back to the breeder and demand the op be paid for? I bet that never even entered her head!

carefull sweetheart lol

please explain that post p@h

Why didn't she go back to the breeder and demand the op be paid for? I bet that never even entered her head!

do you really think the breeder would have coughed up the dosh? ..... No way

The same thing is happening in the world of pedigree cats too.

Pedigree long hairs (so called 'peke faced' cats) with eyes so large that they can't shut their eyelids properly, the whole front of their faces so retracted that they have chronic and serious nasal and sinus problems and tear ducts that weep constantly, causing skin problems. These cats were bred more and more extremely to the 'desired breed standard' of a nose that is short and a flat face. The cobbier build also have heart problems and arthritic joint problems later in life.

Siamese cats have had the opposite problem with breeding- they are now so angular and long nosed that this is causing problems with their eyes, teeth and jaw alignment. They are also more prone to all sorts of congenital problems.

There was a variation a few years ago in the US in a longhaired litter which was entirely missing one of the bones in their legs. This produced a 'dwarf' cat, with the side effect that these cats are unable to fold their legs up properly and so suffer from mobility issues and have insufficient flexibility to groom properly. Did that litter all get spayed as a precaution to make sure that the genetic abnormality that produced this mutation was not furthered- of course not.

I could go on, but this is only to highlight that similar issues seem to affect all animals with a breed standard or which is bred to bring out certain characteristics.

As soon as we start trying to change the Darwinian 'survival of the fittest' to fit our own ends, we start causing undesirable side effects in breeds. Surely the most important thing is that we value the survival of the animals into the future and plan for that to be done in good health? Doesn't that rank above looking good?

I knew of a breeder of Pekes some years ago (I was a friend of her daughters) this womans dogs had eyelids that rolled inwards and the eye infections were terrible, it was passed down her lines, did she stop, did she hell as like and she was so arrogant when challenged. I felt such pity for her poor little dogs with terrible eyes and perminently running noses.
Like you say Medusa its the same with cats, persians have been in trouble for a long time havent they.
Really if we are going to play god we have to make sure we have got it right and got our priorities right havent we, and the health of the dog is the priority.

I would never spend hundreds of pounds on a pedigree dog anyway, even before seeing last night's documentary. Why would anyone need to spend a fortune on a genetically engineered, man-made breed that probably has attached a list of specialist breed diseases to beware of, when they can go and give an unwanted dog (or cat) from the local animal rescue centre a home? There are too many animals being created just to prove a point, whatever the point is that these 'top breeders' are actually trying to prove. I agree that the documentary was probably designed to shock, but I think that's a good thing and I hope that more people will be put off from buying these animals and thereby prevented from paying into and condoning the kind of terrible attitudes displayed by the breeders on the documentary.


Right from the start, the whole documentary smacked of fascism and some of the breeders' attitudes just made me sick! There was an unhealthy parallel between them and Hitler, as far as I could see: fascism, eugenics and obsession with an unrealistic and unnatural ideal.

Another scary thing is, it looks as if there's a push towards this kind of genetic engineering in humans too. I wonder where the line will be drawn there? In the search for 'perfect' health and 'perfect' babies, 'Designer babies' are already on the rise LINK (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3913053.stm).


:(

I'll make it a bit easier:

(ignoring variations between countries too)

1932 (http://www.mydestiny.hu/image/maskepp/kartya/1932.jpg)

1953 (http://www.mydestiny.hu/image/maskepp/kartya/1953b.jpg)

1960 (http://www.mydestiny.hu/image/maskepp/kartya/1960.jpg)

1970 frontal (http://www.mydestiny.hu/image/maskepp/kartya/1970c.jpg) 1970 stance (http://www.mydestiny.hu/image/maskepp/kartya/1970d.jpg) 1970 pose (http://www.mydestiny.hu/image/maskepp/kartya/1974.jpg) - now those are the dogs I remember Bassets being

So how the heck did we get to a state where their ears drag along the ground, they can't see properly coz their faces are falling off them, taking their eyelids with them, their coats are too big and gather in folds over their legs, and their legs are quite obviously deformed? :rant:

How come the breed seems to have undergone such a rapid change in more recent years? (markedly across the 1980's if the rest of that page is anything to go by)

I have to say that I have a gorgeous Basset hound bitch and she really does look more like the pictures shown here than the ones on last nights show.

do you really think the breeder would have coughed up the dosh? ..... No wayAt the very least the breeder should have feedback on the health issues of the dogs produced...

... and besides - I have no idea where she got her dog from, or whether it was a KC registered one ;)

This is why it's despicable that the only recourse is via the sale of goods act

I have to say that I have a gorgeous Basset hound bitch and she really does look more like the pictures shown here than the ones on last nights show.That's encouraging to hear :)

Any idea what her 'history' is dizzybird? how old is she?

I would never spend hundreds of pounds on a pedigree dog anyway, even before seeing last night's documentary. Why would anyone need to spend a fortune on a genetically engineered, man-made breed that probably has attached a list of specialist breed diseases to beware of, when they can go and give an unwanted dog (or cat) from the local animal rescue centre a home? Because even dogs in rescue don't come with a health guarantee - and I've seen dogs in rescue who have suffered from some horrible afflictions - and those are crossbreeds

You may spend less money on adopting a rescue animal, but the risk of spending out on vets' fees is still there

And can we stop tarring all pedigree dogs with the same brush please? Not every breed attracts the kind of people who put preening and inbreeding highest on the list of priorities

I would never spend hundreds of pounds on a pedigree dog anyway, even before seeing last night's documentary. Why would anyone need to spend a fortune on a genetically engineered, man-made breed that probably has attached a list of specialist breed diseases to beware of, when they can go and give an unwanted dog (or cat) from the local animal rescue centre a home? There are too many animals being created just to prove a point, whatever the point is that these 'top breeders' are actually trying to prove.

I don't think you can write off every pedigree dog just like that! I would and did spend a lot on my pedigree dog. In fact I paid nearly £1,000 and travelled to Ayrshire in Scotland for him and would do again if I was to get another dog. That is not to say that the breed is totally without its own problems. Samoyed, like a lot of larger breeds, have tendancies towards hip dysplasia. My dog came from 2 hip scored parents and also has had his own scored but it is not compulsary.

The documentary focused on only a few breeds and from that source only you cannot draw the conclusion that every single breed recognised by the KC is over exaggerated and warped beyond all proportion. My dogs are Samoyed and they are actually pretty much unchanged since Kilburn Scott brought the first dogs over. It is accepted that dogs decend from wolves and Samoyed are supposed to be one of the 4 first generation decedents of these.

I really can't deny that breeders are shaping the future generations of pedigree dogs and that in some cases - on varying levels of extremety - it is not in the right direction and flying into cruelty but this is not a fast rule. Artificial engineering of breeding in any species is bound to have its effects but the breed distinctions are worth having although more for purpose than for cosmetic reasons.

according to the times online (http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/tv_and_radio/article4561098.ece) the BBC are now deliberating over whether they pull out of their 3 year contract to cover Crufts - following their own expose

the BBCNews website (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7569064.stm) has an interestingly edited version of the KC chairman's statement - clipping off the question he's answering, and half of the answer - which comes across rather differently to the whole clip :suspect:

I'd also like to see the whole 'take' of the vet they interviewed - I don't believe for a minute he got himself into that lather from a standing start - so what else was said?

ooo - this is an interesting interview
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7569627.stm

the problem is that the bloke from the KC is right

if they BAN close breeding, all that's going to happen is that pups will wind up with falsified papers. At the moment, a dog can usually be identified as from a particular line or lines (I can usually spot a dog on another breeder's website who turns out to have a dog from Brude's breeder as a sire for instance), but if a dog and bitch from the same breeder are mated, how does anybody tell if it's from a distantly dog, or if that dog was the son of the bitch?

The KC are right in so much as all they can do is act as a voluntary registration scheme. Try to bring pressure to breeders in the fashion demanded in the last couple of days and all that's going to happen is that purchasers of pets are going to be receiving false information. At least at the moment you have the opportunity to say 'no thanks' to a pup who's been bred from a close mating. Change the rules and you won't know you've been offered a close mating pup

The whole selective breeding is not just dogs, most livestock has been selectively bred for hundreds of years, just look at chickens that grow to big to support their weight, cows that produce higher milk yields, but at what costs /advantages?

It been going on for ages and it surprises me that people seem to be shocked, do they go around with blinkers on unless it's forced on them in some sensational TV report? one that was also very unbalanced and did not focus on any positive points (though I do agree it may be hard to find them)

The KC has come along a long way in the last few years and although improvements are slow they are heading in a better direction. I love how we have so many different breeds and find it quite strange when I go to some countries where all the dogs are mongrels and tend to look pretty similar. Lets hope they can sort out the selfish breeders.

At the very least the breeder should have feedback on the health issues of the dogs produced...

... and besides - I have no idea where she got her dog from, or whether it was a KC registered one ;)

This is why it's despicable that the only recourse is via the sale of goods act

We had a bitch cocker from a breeder -which surprisingly suffered from "mad dog syndrome", obviously this can be managed but when it took to savaging the other bitch as and when it liked it was starting to get frightenting.
I contacted the breeder who didn't want to know -it turned out it did the same thing whilst she had it.
WE ultimately homed it to a family with no dog -FREE and advised it never to be allowed with another dog, we even deleivered it to Blackpool for them to get a good home.
I then proceeded to notify all the dog breeders that i had an association with and all the rescue groups and passed on her details.Word got round to her 'cos we had words and although she didn't take the dog back i hope it prevented others recommending her as a breeder,it certainly damaged her credibility with the clubs.

We had a bitch cocker from a breeder -which surprisingly suffered from "mad dog syndrome", obviously this can be managed but when it took to savaging the other bitch as and when it liked it was starting to get frightenting.
I contacted the breeder who didn't want to know -it turned out it did the same thing whilst she had it.
WE ultimately homed it to a family with no dog -FREE and advised it never to be allowed with another dog, we even deleivered it to Blackpool for them to get a good home.
I then proceeded to notify all the dog breeders that i had an association with and all the rescue groups and passed on her details.Word got round to her 'cos we had words and although she didn't take the dog back i hope it prevented others recommending her as a breeder,it certainly damaged her credibility with the clubs.

This happened to my mum's mate cocker. But it was doing it with people (do they call it red eye/rage?) It became so unpredictable that they had to have it put to sleep. It would go for people and the next min be fine with them as though it had no recollection of what it was doing. She was very upset as it was only a year old and despite always having dogs has not had one since. (the breeder was very upset)

Some people think that this is a behaviour issue but after talking to the puppy’s breeder she found out that that another of his brothers also suffered the same fate.

I have an acquaintance who breeds cockers, one her bitches had rage syndrome so every time a bitch was in season she was crated.They didn't stop breeding from her though. Apparently with most bitches this is the worse time.
It is historical that solid cockers have a more erratic temperament than roans etc.

I have an acquaintance who breeds cockers, one her bitches had rage syndrome so every time a bitch was in season she was crated.They didn't stop breeding from her though. Apparently with most bitches this is the worse time.
It is historical that solid cockers have a more erratic temperament than roans etc.

It is sad that they carried on breeding from her as research into it has looked at a possible genetic links (though not proven) To pass that problem onto a family (though rage is very very rare) with small kids is scary, as cockers are generally bought as nice, smallish, family friendly dogs.

Its bad about the cockers, but some time ago I did some research as I really though a cocker may well be a good second dog for me, there are some breeders out there who have done everything they can to eliminate the cocker rage syndrome and are producing jolly cockers again, its unfortunate that its the good breeders who will get a lot of the flack from those who just dont care.

Just read on a gsd forum of puppy booking being cancelled as a result of the programme and this made me mad really because the breeders in question are very responsible.

Having read a lot of the facts and seen some full footage of the gsds in that showring I have to say along with others that there is a problem with unsound hocks in SOME of the dogs being shown and bred with nowadays but not ALL by any means.
It perhaps should be pointed out that the dog that won at Crufts does have a high working qualification,he has also been hip/elbow xrayed under the SV and achieved his KKL (breed survey) this is not just about conformation but also temperement. Anyone who has been to Crufts will know that the indoor rings for individual breed are very small, they are not all like the big ring show for Best of Breed. This dog is used to being shown in a ring the size of a football stadium and on a natural grass surface, and it has to be said his german owner did not do him any favours as she too was not used to the smaller rings and having to manipulate a big dog round a small ring is no easy feat. The other dog shown at Manchester was a veteran and quite a few breed folk commented on his back end looking wobbly.
Zamp (the Crufts dog) in his own country had to compete in a 12 mile endurance test, this is the norm for German show dogs. He would have completed all his Schutzhund levels at 1, 2 and 3, be guntested for solid temprement etc
It should also be considered that the German shepherd breeders were the first to bring in the Hip Dysplasia scheme, it was originally only done for gsds but other breeds have found it beneficial.
In the 60s and 70s epilepsy was a major problem in the breed but because good breeders chose to breed from non epileptic stock it is a very rare occurance nowadays.
Some lines were found to be passing heamophilia and the Heamophilia testing was established, I believe now they also test for elbow displasia in breeding stock.

So not all breeders are bad and thats how they were painted in this programme.
As I stated before its buyer beware and I wish that all breeding stock could be compulsary screened.

I have an acquaintance who breeds cockers, one her bitches had rage syndrome so every time a bitch was in season she was crated.They didn't stop breeding from her though. Apparently with most bitches this is the worse time.
It is historical that solid cockers have a more erratic temperament than roans etc.

I seem to remember hearing that the "cocker rage" syndrome was from one particular sire-line. I had a friend a few years ago, who had a golden cocker, who was really, really ill-tempered, and her sire was a full-black coated ? solid? (I forget the technical term) and it was believed that he came from the particular line for Cocker Rage.

A lot of it is down to supply and demand. Mongrols don't command any price (infact they can't even give them away often) while pegigree dogs can fetch several hundred pounds each. Then again breaders are only responding to consumer demand. Truth is most people want pedigrees.

A lot of it is down to supply and demand. Mongrols don't command any price (infact they can't even give them away often) while pegigree dogs can fetch several hundred pounds each. Then again breaders are only responding to consumer demand. Truth is most people want pedigrees.

depends what you mean by mongrel- mix a springer and a cocker for instance and all of a sudden it commands a high price as a sprocker, just one of the wierd and wonderful designer crossbreeds in favour at the moment

Does anybody else think bassets have gone too far now? I don't remember them looking so hideously unreal in the 1970's - I remember them looking like hounds - with heads shaped like that of Fred Basset - and more like a 'real' dog!

interesting collection of bassets (http://www.mydestiny.hu/maskepp.htm) - please have a look at these and comment

All that spare flesh ('furnishing', for goodness sake) just can't be right..


I grew up with all manner of crossbreeds and apart from the westie we had when I was around 2yrs old, never owned a pedigree until Ailsa. I paid £500 for the daft dobermutt almost 7 yrs ago and would do it again (and the rest) for another dobe or other pedigree, provided it was from healthy stock- so I wouldnt want to see all pedigree dogs banned, just more control over what is being bred.

depends what you mean by mongrel- mix a springer and a cocker for instance and all of a sudden it commands a high price as a sprocker, just one of the wierd and wonderful designer crossbreeds in favour at the moment

There's no accounting for taste but anyone paying "pedigree" money for a mongrel has too much money.

That's encouraging to hear :)

Any idea what her 'history' is dizzybird? how old is she?

She is 2 now, she was bought from a breeder who supplied my mum with her Basset 8 years ago.
I have her full generation details from breeder and got her KC generation certificate which tallied.
I wish I could post some pictures of her to show you all but I can't work out how to do it!!!!:hihi::hihi:

Link to some pics of gsds from the past
http://www.germanshepherds-r-us.com/pastdogs.html

I recently watched excerpts of a BBC programme on pedigree dogs and was disgusted with what I saw.

For example, it disclosed that the ridges on the backs of Rhodesian ridgebacks are a genetic defect related to Spina Bifida. And yet dogs without the ridges (i.e. the healthier dogs) are put down at birth. The chairwoman of the RR society defended the policy by explaining that without the ridges they would not be Rhodesian ridgebacks!

Similarly, the inbreeding of pugs has resulted in the creation of animals hardly capable of breathing without extreme difficulty and whose curly tails are the product of curvature of the spine.

There were even worse examples, i.e. of dogs with chronic brain, sight, limb and auto-immune system defects of various kinds, all the result of inbreeding – all in pursuit of some arbitrary ‘breed standard’.

Before I watched this programme I thought that the owners of the show dogs at Crufts were a particularly obnoxious lot. This programme reinforced my opinion.

Many of the breeds, like pugs, bulldogs, bassets to name but a few, have been bred for aesthetic reasons in a way that can only be described as perverse - and I believe constitues institutionalised abuse.
It is about time the issue was recognised, and I do hope this latest publicity is kept up, rather than dying down and letting the Kennel Club carry on with its perversions.

As an aside, I had a Rhodesian smoothback, which was a wonderful dog. I even thought it looked better without the ridge, let alone being a quarter of the price from a breeder who at least was willing to sell them.

the perception of what a dog should look like by the likes of crufts& the kc have ruined the bull dog it now resembles a frog it cant breath & can hardley walk

Yeah, totally agree, creating pedigree dogs by selective breeding is all kinds of wrong.
I've got a Westie which was apparantly bred to be pure white so they wouldn't get accidentily shot whilst hunting.
No problem there but they were also bred to have short legs and a weird, top heavy skeleton. As a consequence of that, they're prone to hip problems. Very cute but dogs weren't designed that way.

the perception of what a dog should look like by the likes of crufts& the kc have ruined the bull dog it now resembles a frog it cant breath & can hardley walk


I thought that was the saddest case. The level of changes to this breed has been astonishing! Ruined though I think; and I actually prefer they way they are 'supposed' to look; not the way they look now.

It's just human elitism and arrogance. Some of us believe we can do whatever we wish with animals especially if there is money involved. (Let's hope the concept of 'karma' is a reality :thumbsup:)

If you genuinely take delight in dogs, the character and companionship of a mongrel should be able to bring you as much pleasure as that of a hip pedigree breed. Don't support these breeders and elitists, there are plenty of nice animals in the rescue centres.

the perception of what a dog should look like by the likes of crufts& the kc have ruined the bull dog it now resembles a frog it cant breath & can hardley walk

not true, we have now got bulldogs doing agilaty, you are living in the past

the english/british bull dog?or the olde bulldogge type bred by dave leavitt? my nieghbour was looking after his son in laws english bull dog it struggled to get up the kitchen steps (2)so any improvement on this would be a start

a pure bred bulldog doesnt have any prefix mine are purebred and can run jump & just about keep up with my staffs,i`m not saying there perfect but most breeds have faults but that program didn`t show or tell you the work good breeders are doing now to put thinks right & that the k.c.& the breeders have been working together to put things right . lets hope the program hasn`t done to much damage & that not too many dogs are abandend because they have been classed as mutant , it is already becomeing a throw away society re dogs , would the thoughts of some people have been the same if it was humans we where talking about ?

i hate it when a dog becomes fashionable that usually spells trouble for the breed

i hate it when a dog becomes fashionable that usually spells trouble for the breedI wish you were wrong :(

whenever anybody stops us to make a fuss of our Beagle I do exactly as his breeder did when I met her, and tell them all the reasons not to own one!

The number of staffies advertised for sale here when they're only months old is heart breaking - and the number picked up by the dog warden when people have got fed up and kicked them out.... :shakes:

Dad had a rescued GSP that was found starving to death. We couldn't work out why someone had dumped a rare pedigree dog but the vet told him it was probably because he was shorter than a male should be for that breed. Madness. He had a beautiful coat (perfectly ticked) and a perfect temperament, and all the pointing instincts. But after investigation, turned out he had been sold by a breeder cheap to some scumbag as he wasn't tall enough and the scrote who bought him just dumped him to die because they couldn't handle such a lively dog.

Then you get the 'breeding farms'. There were a few where I grew up and they aren't nice.

You're starting to get this with cats now, too. Some of the modern Persians can barely breathe. :(

*threads merged*

If you go onto the BBC website there is a place to comment on the show so it may be worth putting points forward that have been brought up on here, ie the KC should be doing more to make breeders more responsible for screening breeding stock etc etc

I recieved a response from DEFRA, here it is

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Do yiou think my e-mail facility has gone ga -ga?

No, I seriously doubt your email link is at fault.

It makes as much sense as most governmental department missives, Wallbuilder... :roll:

can any one belive what the rhodesian ridgeback bredders were saying???????/
Makes you wonder if the breeder's are inbred doesn't it !!!! but is that fair as it's not the breeder's who set out the breed standard , it's the kennel club, I think there's nothing people won't do with animal's to line their own pocket's , ban showing , scrap the breed standard , stick to obedience, agility , flyball etc, much more fun for the dog and owner--( like that would ever happen )

I wouldn't like to