The phenomenal success of Eminem has sometimes been attributed to the ‘Elvis and Big Boy Crudup’ syndrome, i.e. he has taken music popular in the black community and has broadened its appeal to the general (largely white) audience. He has also benefited greatly from working with black artists and producers, most notably with Dr. Dre. The irony is that this blonde nerdy guy from Detroit has probably ended up making more money than all of the rest of the rap/hip hop artists put together.

Personally, I don’t think he is just a lucky nerd, producing cynical commercial trash. He is obviously a talented businessman (‘sue me’ being one of his favourite expressions), but I think he’s also a talented artist. Some of his songs are in my opinion witty and inventive and might even be classed as a kind of urban poetry. He writes about a broader range of subjects than many rap artists (for example, about his relationship with his mother, his wife, the experience of being a father etc – which many people can relate to). Many of his lyrics make a lot more sense than those of Dylan’s. He has also produced some good albums , such as Marshall Mathers and the Eminem Show and a classic single (‘Stan’, which in my view is a brilliant piece of story telling in song). He was in my opinion also very good in 8 Mile. As for the charge of exploiting black artists, I think he has probably brought many black artists (such as Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg and Nate Dogg) to the attention of a wider audience. Its an example of cultural syncretism being beneficial both to the borrower and the borrowed from (although as I have said earlier, I think Eminem adds something distinctive to his ‘borrowings’ from the genre).

What would Eminem think of all this. I think I know the answer

‘If you don’t like my music, you can **** my ****
Cos I don’t give a **** what you really think of it’

Isn't it:

I don't give a f*** if you don't like my s***
'cos I was high when I wrote this so s*** my d***?

Wise words...

I hate rap but he has something. I can listen to his stuff and there is some humour in there too ...

He has great talent just a shame all his songs sound the same.

Yep, and "Kim" has got to be the most emotive (if disturbing) song I have ever listened to. You can feel all the different emotions he's going through.

There's going to be some Eminem haters on here, and I'm not so big a fan that I'm going to defend him to the hilt, but I agree. I'm SO not a fan of rap, but love his first two albums. I guess I've got a bit more tired now that he has less hardship to talk about, though.

Originally posted by BoroughGal
.....There's going to be some Eminem haters on here,

Yep. I can see a Zepplin v's Eminem one way debate about to occur.

I think he rises above the majority of the rap dross that's out there at the moment. I've been into rap since the late 80's and much of what's out there now is jaded, repetitive tripe. You'dve thought they'd at least make the videos a little more individualistic.

Personally I think Em's a gifted lyricist (sp?)... urban poet? - why not.

Musically IMO the latest album is a let down, but generally as an all round performer he's top notch (IMO).

It goes without saying he's a major talent within his own genre.

I will alwas support my fellow satirist! ****ing genius IMO

Eminem is undoubtedly talented, not my cuppa, but very good at what he does...

...and it's not just black artists who have benefited by collaborating with him, Dido only came into the mainstream after "Stan".


While I'm here,
Originally posted by miniminch
I will alwas support my fellow satirist! ****ing genius IMO
from the "...perfect band..." thread:
Originally posted by miniminch
lead vocals; Pope J-P-2
guitar: Mohammed Ali
Bass: Thora Hurd
Drums: stephen Hawkings

First CD 'Let's Get Ready to Rock' Ballards and other very slow material!
Oh the satire! :rolleyes:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ginner
[B]Yep. I can see a Zepplin v's Eminem one way debate about to occur.

I like both Zeppelin and Eminem - and also Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and Schubert.

Perhaps the connection is that the music of LZ and Eminem both have a sharp edge to them. In some ways Beethoven was the heavy metal artist of his day - many of the allegros in his piano works in particular are full of fierce pulsating riffs. Many of Schubert's songs are about the trials and tribulations of living, as are Eminem's.



Posted by Boroughgal

Isn't it:

I don't give a f*** if you don't like my s***
'cos I was high when I wrote this so s*** my d***?

Wise words

Both versions are I think correct, give or take a **** or two.

Lord Chaverley,
You are absolutely correct here about Schubert's lieder. As you rightly say, the wonderful, sonorous songs are often about the 'trials and tribulations' of life. Perhaps Eminem can be regarded as an earnest young man musing about life and the eternal verities too. However, there the similarity ends. Try as I might, I cannot find any references to fellatio in Schubert's catalogue. Unless, of course, it was known as 'adagio' in those far off days?

Very true Timo, but Schubert was writing within the moral constraints of his time - as was Mozart, who had a taste for vulgar and scatalogical humour which is not present in his music but probably would have been somewhere if it had been acceptable in his time.

Also, the great composers (Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert) were not to the best of my knowledge, songwriters - they set songs or poems written by others to music e.g. Mozart and Beethoven didn't write the librettos to their operatic works. Eminem writes his own lyrics (not that I am trying to say that he is comparable to them in artistic stature).

Eminem has had major success and he owes a lot of it to Dre. Without Dre Eminem would never have succeeded in the music business. Dre built him then handed over the keys and let him do his own thing. Now with the success of Shady Records Eminem is one of the richest men in Hip Hop.

Personally I think as an artist he has sold out to what he was originally true too. Some say he’s just moved on from where he started but personally I think he’s more interested in money now than knocking good tracks out.

I’ve got over 40 of his bootlegs and underground albums of which I rate far more highly than any of his commercially available albums. He is incredibly lyrically gifted and he’s already proved that when he was underground. Having won countless contests time after time I think now he feels securing his future is more of an importance than keeping the respect of his true hip hop fans. He’s not gone off the rails or lost his talent I just don’t think we’ll be seeing much of it anymore. He’s simply becoming more of a singer than a rapper which most people will call him a sell out for. But having still featured on a large number of other artist’s tracks in the recent months you can quite clearly see he can still perform. He obviously hasn’t lost the respect of his fellow artists because they quite simply wouldn’t ask him to feature for them. All is good in the land of Eminem but only time will tell of his future.

Eminem is a chav, and chavs like him...

He's all about the bling, the attitude and grotesque sence of dressing.

Shoot him or something

Originally posted by foo_fighter
Eminem is undoubtedly talented, not my cuppa, but very good at what he does...

...and it's not just black artists who have benefited by collaborating with him, Dido only came into the mainstream after "Stan".


While I'm here,

from the "...perfect band..." thread:

Oh the satire! :rolleyes:
so you don't get it fool fighter! LOL

Originally posted by LordChaverly
I like both Zeppelin and Eminem - and also Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and Schubert.


But sadly Eminem's music is a pile of crap.

No emotion or feeling to it at all....

All he does is use his music to take the **** out of people.

Originally posted by Captain_Scarlet
Eminem is a chav, and chavs like him...

He's all about the bling, the attitude and grotesque sence of dressing.

Shoot him or something

And your so much cooler? http://www.smokefilledroom.co.uk/Gregsworld/ :rolleyes:


Originally posted by IanMitchell
But sadly Eminem's music is a pile of crap.

No emotion or feeling to it at all....

All he does is use his music to take the **** out of people.

You of course are incredibly musically talented and have never taken the p1$$ out of anyone? :P

Originally posted by IanMitchell
But sadly Eminem's music is a pile of crap.

No emotion or feeling to it at all....

All he does is use his music to take the **** out of people.

But he also takes the **** out of himself. There is a self-mocking, self-deprecatory, whimsical aspect to some of his songs and a lot of humour in them as well. In some of his songs he tells listeners not to take his songs (or indeed him) too seriously. I also disagree with you about the lack of feeling (for example, the feelings he has about his mother as expressed in his songs - mainly resentment - seem genuine, as do his songs about growing up within a problem family in Detroit).

Originally posted by IanMitchell
But sadly Eminem's music is a pile of crap.
That's your opinion.

Originally posted by IanMitchell
No emotion or feeling to it at all....
All he does is use his music to take the **** out of people.

And you've listened to all his tracks, rather than just accidentally caught some of his radio play (and probably even then changed station after 10 seconds).

You don't like rap, fine. But to say there's no emotion in Eminem's songs is naive/biased to say the least.
A song doesn't have to have a 5 minute guitar solo in it to contain emotion.

Oh and....
"I can't stand rap....people who can't sing do rap....you can sing rebellion as well as talk it....Hitler would have been in a rap band"
-John Entwistle

Have you ever heard someone who can't rap try to rap? I'd like to have heard Mr Entwistle try.

You can rap rebellion as well as talk it and sing it.

What do i gotta do to get through to you, to show you
There ain't nothing i can't take this chainsaw to?
:cool:

Originally posted by Ginner
That's your opinion.

Yes it is, what's your point?


[b]And you've listened to all his tracks, rather than just accidentally caught some of his radio play (and probably even then changed station after 10 seconds).

No, I haven't listened to all his tracks.

I haven't listened to all the tracks of some of my favourite bands.

To have an opinion on an artist you have to listen to all their tracks?


You don't like rap, fine. But to say there's no emotion in Eminem's songs is naive/biased to say the least.


I actually used to own some Eminem


A song doesn't have to have a 5 minute guitar solo in it to contain emotion.

Yeah you're right, songs don't have to have 5 minute guitar solos to contain emotion.

Eminem's songs still don't have emotion

Originally posted by Ginner
Have you ever heard someone who can't rap try to rap? I'd like to have heard Mr Entwistle try.


Mr Entwistle is actually dead

you are a clown!

Originally posted by J-Blaze
Personally I think as an artist he has sold out to what he was originally true too. Some say he’s just moved on from where he started but personally I think he’s more interested in money now than knocking good tracks out.

I personally think you're right about this. I'm sure that Eminem is a watered down, commercialised version of rap, that people that know nothing about rap can enjoy - young 'uns and people like me. I can see that people who really know and love "proper" (for want of a better word) rap wouldn't like him.

I do, however, still think he's really talented, if only for being able to bring rap to the masses.

Originally posted by IanMitchell
Eminem's songs still don't have emotion

Isn't emotion a purely personal thing? I can listen to music that makes the hair stand up on my neck. It wont provoke the same emotion in you. Similarly, you probably love "Stairway to Heaven" or something else rocky. That does nothing for me. Egotistical and boring guitar solo's crack me up. But I'm not going to critisise your love of them or the emotion it evokes in you...

So you're wrong. Eminem DOES have emotion, he just doesn't do it for you.

That, Boroughgirl, is a fair assessment in my view. His music has none of the originality, inventiveness and range of Public Enemy, but he has brought a popular art form [which does require considerable intelligence and skill] to the masses. Unlike some rap artists, his lyrics are often poignant and rather clever, in contrast to the thousands of bad examples out there, bleating on and on about how their 'Uzis' are 'out of control'.

One has to don one's baseball cap, grab one's 'Booty hoe' and drive into the Ghetto now. Toodle Pip!

Originally posted by timo


One has to don one's baseball cap, grab one's 'Booty hoe' and drive into the Ghetto now. Toodle Pip!

Your Honour, I rest my case!

Originally posted by timo
That, Boroughgirl, is a fair assessment in my view. His music has none of the originality, inventiveness and range of Public Enemy, but he has brought a popular art form [which does require considerable intelligence and skill] to the masses. Unlike some rap artists, his lyrics are often poignant and rather clever, in contrast to the thousands of bad examples out there, bleating on and on about how their 'Uzis' are 'out of control'.

One has to don one's baseball cap, grab one's 'Booty hoe' and drive into the Ghetto now. Toodle Pip!

Are you off to 'smack your bitch up' Timo? Somehow I doubt it. I'll wager you are just as much a gentleman in real life as you are on this forum.

I have very little time for rap music or hip-hop, but I think Eminem is a highly talented, gifted artist, if not a genius.

He is a modern poet, no question.

I think his talent actually transcends a specific musical genre, and he will be around for many years to come - if that's what he wants to do. He's a great showman and performer, although for me his real talent is his gift for language. I love listening to his words - he has a fabulous sense of humour, while at the same time the raw emotion often present in his lyrics can be searing in their pain. The humour is very black, though, and perhaps not to everyone's taste.....

A true original, in my opinion.

StarSparkle :thumbsup:

Starsparkle, I agree totally. Well said!

Originally posted by LordChaverly
Starsparkle, I agree totally. Well said!

Cheers, Chavvers :thumbsup:

StarSparkle

Originally posted by miniminch
so you don't get it fool fighter! LOL
:rolleyes: Predictable as ever.

Your Honour, I rest my case!

:loopy:

Originally posted by foo_fighter
:rolleyes: Predictable as ever.

Your Honour, I rest my case!

:loopy:

i was expecting that - your honour the defendant is clearly insane and just repeating everything I say because he can't come up with owt good himself:D

Originally posted by miniminch
i was expecting that - your honour the defendant is clearly insane and just repeating everything I say because he can't come up with owt good himself:D
Let's think about this one...

...one of us is generally involved in various debates, engaging in constructive dialogue with fellow forumers...

...the other is generally abusive, and merely posts random ramblings for his own amusement...

...can you figure out which is which. :heyhey:

Originally posted by IanMitchell
Yes it is, what's your point?
My point being that you stated an opinion, not fact. It read you like you were stating a fact.
Originally posted by IanMitchell
No, I haven't listened to all his tracks.
I haven't listened to all the tracks of some of my favourite bands.
To have an opinion on an artist you have to listen to all their tracks?.......
Nope, but to have listened to, say 50% would be a fair starting point on which to base an opinion. So....
Originally posted by IanMitchell
...I actually used to own some Eminem
...fair play then. Better than the opinion of some that's based on ignorance more than anything.
Originally posted by IanMitchell
Yeah you're right, songs don't have to have 5 minute guitar solos to contain emotion.
Eminem's songs still don't have emotion
Again - in your opinion. Fair enough.
Originally posted by IanMitchell
Mr Entwistle is actually dead[/B]
I know, hence...
Originally posted by Ginner
I'd like to have heard Mr Entwistle try.

Mod. Note

Can we get this thread back on to whether Detroit's Finest Rapper(? - discuss!) is as good as he thinks he is.

Keep the personal arguments to PM Land, please.

Cheers

Joe.

Originally posted by foo_fighter
Let's think about this one...

...one of us is generally involved in various debates, engaging in constructive dialogue with fellow forumers...

...the other is generally abusive, and merely posts random ramblings for his own amusement...

...can you figure out which is which. :heyhey:

errr....the last ones me right? But mr fighter you are forgetting my fan club, who wait eagarly for my thread stopping pieces of Wildian wit! Which do you prefer serious debate about TV programmes or just plain old havin a laugh? I'm sorry if we don't share the same sense of humour but isn't that what makes life so rich and diverse! VIVA LA WEIRD
:thumbsup:

keep up the good work Plato

Originally posted by BoroughGal
Isn't it:

I don't give a f*** if you don't like my s***
'cos I was high when I wrote this so s*** my d***?

Wise words...

I once read somewhere, think it was in the Star, that Eminem, real name Marshall Mathers, has Tourrette's Syndrome, which renders him unable to help swearing even when he doesn't mean to.

If more people knew that, they wouldn't be so quick to criticise him and pull him to bits for the bad language he uses as part of his act.

Rich,
No disrespect or offence intended here, but are you sure that what you read about Eminem and Tourette's Syndrome was not intended as a 'sick' joke? The reason for my scepticism lies in a 45 minute interview with Eminem, which I watched with friends whilst in Seattle around two years ago. The Rapper did not swear once during the interview on American TV, not even the obligatory obscene maternal reference. Not even 'bottom' or 'crikey!' passed his pouting lips.

With this in mind, I wonder how many other aggressive, foul-mouthed musical entertainers might be 'excused' via the 'Syndrome' route?

hes a nasty piece of work:o

Who is? Eminem? Elton John doesn't seem to think so.

Originally posted by Rich
I once read somewhere, think it was in the Star, that Eminem, real name Marshall Mathers, has Tourrette's Syndrome, which renders him unable to help swearing even when he doesn't mean to.

I thought people with Tourettes also had tic's, etc - I've not seen any evidence of this with Eminem

There is no evidence that Em has Tourette's. Yes, he uses many profanities in his songs, but no more so (and probably less so) than many other rap artists - its part of the genre. I would guess he is a very controlled person, who knows what he is doing and why he is doing it.

I'm not surprised that Em didn't use profanities in his TV interview. The remarkable thing about mainstream US TV is how tame it is with regard to both language and content. You hear people swear in daily life in the US all the time, and yet you hardly ever hear even a mild swear word on TV

Back on the Tourette's thing. There was a programme on TV recently by a composer with Tourette's who put forward the view that Mozart must have had Tourette's because of his foul mouth and his jerky body movements, which possibly included tics. I didn't find the programme convincing

Originally posted by Rich
I once read somewhere, think it was in the Star, that Eminem, real name Marshall Mathers, has Tourrette's Syndrome, which renders him unable to help swearing even when he doesn't mean to.

If more people knew that, they wouldn't be so quick to criticise him and pull him to bits for the bad language he uses as part of his act.

I can quite happily say Marshall Mathers definately does not have Tourrette's Syndrome, however the fact someone has said he does is kinda funny.

Originally posted by Jon
He has great talent just a shame all his songs sound the same.
You're obviously someone who has never heard more than 1 Eminem track.

I prefer his more serious stuff. I don't like 'My Name Is', 'The Real Slim Shady' or 'Without Me', I prefer stuff like 'Toy Soldiers', 'Cleaning Out My Closet' and 'Sing For The Moment'.

Originally posted by Sidla
You're obviously someone who has never heard more than 1 Eminem track.

I prefer his more serious stuff. I don't like 'My Name Is', 'The Real Slim Shady' or 'Without Me', I prefer stuff like 'Toy Soldiers', 'Cleaning Out My Closet' and 'Sing For The Moment'.

Great choices Sidla. 'Cleaning Out My Closet' in particular is a great track.