Just heard on the radio this morning that HSBC have announced 4000 job cuts over the next 3 years, many in Sheffield.

HSBC (Midland Bank)has been a major employer in the cities since the 70's as all of its core IT functions are based here.

Many people have relocated here over the years and have helped to contribute to the success of our city.

This is a real blow for Sheffield and could have a major impact on jobs / housing and wider issues- Assuming we take the full brunt of the cuts.

Anybody have any further news or work for the HSBC and care to give us some insider info on what is going on.

I bet it's because they are outsourcing to places like India and China!

Don't for get the couple of hundred job losses anounced last week at Trebor Bassets. Not strictly Sheffield I know but still near enough to have an impact on the general area. :(

It's been blown out of all proportion cos I've been told that the only job losses will be in their Contact Centre. I know any form of job loss in any major investor in the city is bad, but it's not as bad as they made it sound on the news this morning.

Any job losses are bad in my book. 1, 2 or 4000.

Anyway hows work today dick? *YAWN* think I'll watch some telly now!

Yeah, I don't dispute the fact that job loss is something not that important. Erm, work is work and I'm just pleased to say it's Friday!!! WHy you not at work? Skiver!! ;)

There is a solution:

When we know the extent of the job cuts, and how they will affect our city, those forum members who bank with HSBC could move their accounts elsewhere. Those forum members who run businesses who bank with HSBC could do the same.

They want to re-locate to India, then fine, let them. They can recruit customers in India too.

The minimum wage went up this month, staffing expenses keep getting higher, National insurance contributions have also gone up for employers, Asia is cheaper to hire staff in.........

Originally posted by Andy
There is a solution:

When we know the extent of the job cuts, and how they will affect our city, those forum members who bank with HSBC could move their accounts elsewhere. Those forum members who run businesses who bank with HSBC could do the same.

They want to re-locate to India, then fine, let them. They can recruit customers in India too.

I have respect for the way you present your case Andy. Well written!

I doubt us lot closing our accounts would actually make that much of a difference to HSBC, but if we don't stand up and be counted, we can hardly complain, can we?

Ironic, isn't it, that a bank who claim "Local knowledge goes a long way" are moving their call centres half a world away.

They are the world's local bank, didn't you know? :D

In 2002 HSBC announced a 20% increase in profit to more than £6 billion. Operating profits before exceptional items in 2002 rose 3.2% to $11.64 billion (£7.4 billion). This company hardly needs to make more money does it?

Who, precisely, are the real terrorists we have to be afraid of?

<sarcasm>

The BNP should take some action because this is surely racism - taking jobs off white people and giving them to Asians. It makes a mockery of the saying "coming over here and taking our jobs" - they don't have to go anywhere!!!

</sarcasm>

Originally posted by Classic Rock
The minimum wage went up this month, staffing expenses keep getting higher, National insurance contributions have also gone up for employers, Asia is cheaper to hire staff in.........

Thank Tony Blair and his cronies.

As for do HSBC need to make even bigger profits, the answer is yes. The aim of 99% of businesses is to increase profits and therefore income for its owners, shareholders, etc. Businesses aren't charities. If they can employ people to do the same job in another country but for much less then of course they will do it. I blame the minimum wage legislation.

The only way we can do something is to abandon companies that do this. If they learn that every time they outsource they lose customers, reducing any profits made from outsourcing in the first place, then they may start to think twice about it. So if HSBC is your 'local' bank, I suggest you write them a letter telling them you are not happy about this situation and as a result you are moving your bank account to another bank.

When HSBC were MIDLAND, they relocated 1000's of workers from london in 1975 to what is Griffin House, or used to be called that anyway. I moved to Sheffield precisely in this way in September 1975 for the first time, in fact, EVERYONE in our road, then brand new development in Lodge Moor (The Ridge), was from london and moved up with midland bank. It was quite scary......

The job cuts were always on the cards because work done in these processing centres was being transferred to India, China and Malaysia way back in 2001 where it only costs 1/10th of what HSBC has to pay out for someone to do the same job here...

The office in Cumberland Way is scheduled to close by end of 2004 and will obviously mean voluntary redundancies although some should recieve the opportunity to move to another HSBC site in Sheffield of which there are quite a few.

Perhaps anyone with HSBC or Firstdirect accounts could register their disgust by closing their accounts. I'm going to close my FD one.

Unfortunately my Mortgage is with HSBC... as is my fiancees salary. Yep she work for em. Although nothing to do with the command chain at all. Her job is safe as she is in the Stocks and Shares game.

Still a poor move by HSBC IMHO. We cannot close our accounts as ALL HSBC staff have to have a staff account where they have their wages paid into.

Can't move the mortgage either cos we're on the 3 yr starter mortgage and have 2 yrs left!

But I respect you guys decisions to move your accounts and I feel that everyone should do the same!

1000 to 1500 ukp per annum (Indian equiv) is what they are paying with the Indian Govt stumping up the setup costs, so its a real bargain for HSBC.

Originally posted by t020
Thank Tony Blair and his cronies.

As for do HSBC need to make even bigger profits, the answer is yes. The aim of 99% of businesses is to increase profits and therefore income for its owners, shareholders, etc. Businesses aren't charities. If they can employ people to do the same job in another country but for much less then of course they will do it. I blame the minimum wage legislation.

The only way we can do something is to abandon companies that do this. If they learn that every time they outsource they lose customers, reducing any profits made from outsourcing in the first place, then they may start to think twice about it. So if HSBC is your 'local' bank, I suggest you write them a letter telling them you are not happy about this situation and as a result you are moving your bank account to another bank.

The suspect that the real truth of the matter is business costs in the U.K.

Each and every business is literally snowed under with bureaucracy and red tape, adding massively to the cost of employing. 'Working practices' 'health & safety in the workplace' 'equal opportunities' 'men and women paid for maternity leave' Every single move made by companies has to be outlined in full to government.

Also, insurance costs have soared, under Labour due to the compensation culture. These are a few instances why businesses have decided to ditch New Labour for pastures new. What can the government do to ease the situation and prevent the loss of indiginous jobs? Get off the backs of industry.

All this before a penny is paid in taxes. Except of course, the tax on insurance. Then there is the firm's contribution to workers national insurance, if they employ pension age people, those employees pay no contribution...the employer does.

An answer why jobs are being lost...it's mostly the government's fault. Brown/Blair and greedy companies who will do whatever it takes to boost profit/cut costs. I agree, boycott them all not forgetting Dyson.

Why pay someone here when you can employ 30 people for the same price over there?

Getting rid of bureaucracy, red tape, minimum wage will not solve this problem. My point is, unless you can drive the wage bill per person to £30 per month, which is not going to be likely, then we will remain uncompetive in a global market which is becomming more and more local.

UK will need to devalue its pound to compete with countries like India and that will never happen unless it relizes its actually more damaging not to do so.

As someone who has just managed to escape the clutches of HSBC's dreadful employment, I'd just like to say that while job cuts may be bad for the city economy, we shouldn't feel too sorry for the individuals directly affected. Anyone working for HSBC in the last five years has seen this coming. In fact large numbers of Sheffield staff have been flown out to India to train the new employees. Interestingly enough, it's judged so important that they trainers are flown out on separate planes so that if there is a crash, the others can continue the work. However, this caring employer flies the group BACK on one flight - when they've finished the work it doesn't matter if it crashes!

Interesting perspective here, again from the pages of The Gruniad. If I may encapsulate the argument, it's basically our own fault that jobs are going to India. We stopped the import of their goods 200 years ago to protect our own wool and cotton industries thus ensuring the decimation of their industries. We also forced them to adopt English as the language of business and government. Now, they can do anything that can be done at a computer or on the phone for a fraction of the cost.

Something in the bible about reaping and sowing. Belle, any chance of chapter and verse on that?

The flight to India (http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1067344,00.html)

Just thought I'd let you guys know that I've started an online petition against HSBC for moving these UK jobs abroad. The aim is to build up a large number of names from people who say they will withdraw or avoid doing business with HSBC if they do not reverse their decision.

The petition is at:

www.petitiononline.com/hsbcjobs

The text of the petition follows:

To: HSBC Bank plc

I was appalled to learn of the decision by HSBC Bank to turn its back on British workers by moving 4,000 call centre jobs to Asia. (ref: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3198886.stm)

Doing this to cut costs and thereby boost profits at the expense of the livelihoods of British people, many of whom probably bank with you, is simply outrageous. It is time that the British people took a stand against this dangerous trend in the service sector, which no doubt threatens the livelihoods of many British people, not just those working in call centres.

I will give HSBC Bank some time to reconsider this issue, but if you
proceed with your decision to move jobs out of Britain, I hereby
pledge to withdraw my custom from HSBC and move to another bank during February 2004.

Nicely done. I've added my name and closed my account.

I work for HSBC and I was a little worried when I heard about what was happening. We were all given a prepared statement by our respective team leaders. The gist was like this;

"Yes we're moving jobs to India, China and Malasia. No, they're doing things that they already do, call centre stuff, and account opening and closing. It is happening over the next 4 years. We have 55000 of our 218000 staff in the Uk, thats nearly 25%. We have 10% of our customers in the Uk. We need to do whatever we can to stay ahead."

Where I work we can all see it happeneing, but we also believe that there are a lot of jobs that are just too complex for our coleagues abroad, not yet anyhow. At least they made the dead weight managers redundant before they hit the low skilled workers.

We are having record applications for mortgages at the moment. So it hasn't harmed HSBC at all. If there is a place to lay blame it is not at HSBC's door, but at the capitalist system under which it operates. This is what we chose, for better or for worse, we're stuck with it now.

Would like to add my name to the list, but anonymously so people on here can't identify me. Is this possible?

Originally posted by richard
If there is a place to lay blame it is not at HSBC's door, but at the capitalist system under which it operates. This is what we chose, for better or for worse, we're stuck with it now. No don't blame capitalism (or HSBC) but yourselves. Raise a hand everyone who supported the UK motor industry in its death throes by buying British cars, everyone who supported our clothing industry by buying British, everyone who bought british made electrical and white goods. The fact is that consumers will buy the cheapest unless it's obviously complete rubbish (and even then if the price is low enough). You may be persuaded to pay more for quality sometimes but it's hard work and anyway we don't have a monopoly on quality, british cars were widely regarded as poor quality and overpriced, british clothing was regarded as reasonable quality but far more expensive than imports. Look how we all deserted M&S and Rackhams and get stuff at a fraction of the price at TK Max and TJ Hughes and often without much compromise on quality. We are a high cost economy and can only compete with low-cost economies by innovation or government subsidies. Less demanding jobs will be exported to places where the work can be done at lower cost. Trying to prevent it (even with government subsidies) is an act best suited for the descendants of Canute.

If HSBC didn't ship jobs to outer mongolia Barclays or Lloyds would and then offer cheaper banking than HSBC and you'd move your accounts. I buy on quality and like it or not, just look at the independant evidence about the best rated bank for customer service in UK, supported by personal experience and anecdotal evidence there's just no competition. Approval rating of First Direct is stratospheric. I heard that a survey of the general public asked which bank had the best cash dispensers, FD came top despite only having one in the whole country and that's inside their offices for staff use only. Their reputation is so good that the assumption was that they must have the best dispensers.

And what about overseas aid - what better aid than providing jobs and paying better than normal regional rates. They don't want charity they want self respect, a stable job and a good wage. Or maybe it's better for them to give their life savings to the people trafficers to get them smuggled into UK (if they survive) and take the jobs off us here?

The recently announced HSBC job cuts averaged over the 4 year plan account for about 2% of their UK workforce per annum. A fairly typical employee turnover/natural wastage figure is more like 4 or 5% p.a. I believe HSBC staff turnover is much lower than average - which might indicate that although they have a lot of unhappy employees, they are not very good/keen at finding better alternative jobs so there must be something keeping them there. I do know there are lots of HSBC staff rubbing their hands with glee right now as they get their hands on generous redundancy payments - especially the older ones going straight onto a good pension. I heard there were 200 redundancies announced a few months ago, mostly in the Sheffield head office departments and they got 400 volunteers.

Blacking has never worked since the national union of log-rollers unsuccessfully blacked the introduction of the wheel.
And suppose blacking HSBC worked - what kind of effect might that have on the job security of the 95% of staff unaffected by the current move? Maybe we should be petitioning people to move their accounts to HSBC to help protect the 50000+ jobs they will still have in UK. Their presence in Sheffield is important to all of us who live here, the direct wage bill alone probably pumps something approaching £5M a month into the local economy.

Sorry if I sound like an apologist for HSBC, I can assure you I'm a very reluctant one, there's no love lost there, they've screwed me over on occasions but so far much of much of this thread has read like the rantings of a tabloid on a bad day. (And no, I don't work for HSBC).

8) Nah Den Ace.........

I think that it's disgusting that big corporations put profits before considering the impact on worker's lifes and local communities.

However, for the tories amongst us, when the mining and steel industries collapsed you told us that it was due to market forces. Is this any different just because white collar workers are involved?

Regards,

Spacehopper.

Originally posted by robh
No don't blame capitalism (or HSBC) but yourselves. Raise a hand everyone who supported the UK motor industry in its death throes by buying British cars, everyone who supported our clothing industry by buying British, everyone who bought british made electrical and white goods.


That's a very good point, but now we have a chance to actually do something this time. Putting your name on the petition is a threat to HSBC to no longer do business with them. With enough signatures, they just might listen. The media are interested and HSBC will feel very sensitive about their public image. What is the alternative? Let yet another industry leave the country? Now is the time to make your voice heard. Let's make an example of HSBC.

Originally posted by robh
The fact is that consumers will buy the cheapest unless it's obviously complete rubbish (and even then if the price is low enough).


If consumers are looking for the cheapest deal, then they could do better than HSBC or any of the other high street banks. The rates of the online banks are often much better. But then again, inertia has shown that people tend to stick with the same bank unless something really upsets them or they feel strongly about a particular issue - such as outsourcing jobs to Asia.

Originally posted by robh
Less demanding jobs will be exported to places where the work can be done at lower cost.


Not true. This is not limited to just low-skilled jobs. The same process of outsourcing is happening in highly skilled industries. The main one at present is IT. Many software designers and software engineers are losing out as their jobs are moved to India. Also, just yesterday, another report surfaced saying that GlaxoSmithKline may be moving jobs to India:

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3207169.stm
UK drugs giant GlaxoSmithKline has allied with India's largest pharmaceuticals firm, Ranbaxy, to collaborate on drug development.
The deal is the first between major Indian and overseas drugmakers, and may herald a move in the medicine business towards the kind of outsourcing to the subcontinent which has become the norm in IT.


Originally posted by robh
If HSBC didn't ship jobs to outer mongolia Barclays or Lloyds would and then offer cheaper banking than HSBC and you'd move your accounts.


If HSBC stops shipping jobs out to other countries due to public pressure, then perhaps other banks like Barclays and Lloyds will think twice before trying the same trick.

Originally posted by robh
The recently announced HSBC job cuts averaged over the 4 year plan account for about 2% of their UK workforce per annum. A fairly typical employee turnover/natural wastage figure is more like 4 or 5%


In July they announced 1,400 job cuts. Just a few months later they're talking abouy 4,000. Now they won't confirm or deny their plans for further cuts and outsourcing. It sounds like they have a figure in mind, but are letting it out bit by bit to soften the blow and the limit the damage to their public image. Also, the people who might have been able to move into vacant jobs due to natural wasteage won't be able to. So in effect, cuts through natural wasteage reduce employment opportunities for all.

http://www.petitiononline.com/hsbcjobs/

Originally posted by Spacehopper
8) Nah Den Ace.........

I think that it's disgusting that big corporations put profits before considering the impact on worker's lifes and local communities.

However, for the tories amongst us, when the mining and steel industries collapsed you told us that it was due to market forces. Is this any different just because white collar workers are involved?

Regards,

Spacehopper.
Well said, young sir. I cannot bring myself to shed tears over white collar work being exported even though my own company is undertaking the same exercise. Where were these people during the steelworkers' & miners' strikes? Suddenly their jobs and mortgages and life styles are more important than the thousands of miners and steelworkers who have lost jobs. Similarly, all those people who were given the day off by their employers on the Countryside Alliance march. They want to protect their jobs but they did nothing when big corporations and land owners slowly squeezed the small farmers out together with the farm workers.

End of rant.

Originally posted by robh
Raise a hand everyone who supported the UK motor industry in its death throes by buying British cars,

The British motor industry only has itself to blame. The poor quality cars and lacklustre workers at BL in the 70's drove people away to foreign cars.

Do you know it costs less than £4000 to build a brand new Mini - yet it is sold for over £12000?

This thread is interesting reading for me as someone trying to make sense of the jobs export in public policy terms.

I have a couple of observations at this stage.

1. The issue of minimum wage, regulations etc. is not the deciding factor here.

The difference between cost of living in the UK and countries like India is so great that even if we scrapped all UK legislation protecting workers then it would still make sense for companies to move jobs.

It makes more sense to argue about the burden of regulation in respect of shifting jobs between EU countries, the UK and US and so on where it is relevant.

2. We ain't seen nothing yet and we're not really planning properly for what is going to happen.

We can expect a whole batch of jobs to move to lower wage economies in banking, IT, administration etc. robh is right in saying this happens because of lots of us choosing cheaper (and often better) products. It also happens because we want the share prices of companies like HSBC to stay high as these support our pensions and other investments.

If we can see this coming, as it clearly is, then what we should be doing is planning for it rather than being rabbits frozen in the headlights of the oncoming car. This is where I think there is a gap in public policy. Other countries have shown how planned change can be much better than brutal change in the way they have handled, for example, their coal and steel restructuring. If I have a response, it is to press Government to plan for this change in service sector jobs.

As some of you know, I work in banking*, although not for HSBC. I'm also a member of UNIFI, which is the trade union for the financial services industry.

Here's a little bit from an e-mail I recieved from UNIFI:

Finance sector union UNIFI has said it will fight HSBC's plans to make thousands redundant by transferring jobs overseas, and if necessary is prepared to take industrial action to support its members. HSBC's move is the biggest ever single export of finance jobs from the UK to Asia.

HSBC plans to transfer 4,000 jobs to India, China and Malaysia over the next thirty months. In the previous six years HSBC has already 'globalised' some 2,400 jobs, but UNIFI has ensured that workers were able to leave voluntarily or offered alternative jobs if they wished to stay. The bank has said that compulsory redundancies are "inevitable," and has not ruled out the possibility that more jobs could go after 2006.

<snip>

UNIFI is urging customers not to move their accounts or business away from HSBC but to use their influence with the bank to assist UNIFI's campaign. "If customers start leaving HSBC then our members jobs will be further jeopardised. We want customers on board with our campaign. The best thing customers can do is write to HSBC's chief executive, Stephen Green and let him know what they think."

Originally posted by richardallan If we can see this coming, as it clearly is, then what we should be doing is planning for it rather than being rabbits frozen in the headlights of the oncoming car. This is where I think there is a gap in public policy. Other countries have shown how planned change can be much better than brutal change in the way they have handled, for example, their coal and steel restructuring. If I have a response, it is to press Government to plan for this change in service sector jobs. A politician talking sense! Must be some mistake... Oh no, Lib Dem so not likely to be called upon to convert words into actions (sorry Richard - but I voted for you anyway). Another angle on the topic is that we (UK) have an advantage over the non English speaking EC countries because it is so easy to export language critical jobs to lower cost economies. How easy would it be for a German bank to move its call centre offshore - to a low cost German speaking economy ...where...? So we end up with lower cost and higher quality services - at a competitive advantage over most other EC countries' service industries. And there are side effects of strengthening economic ties between us and those lower-cost economies as well as improving their economies and furthering the development of the Anglosphere, probably beneficial to UK.

The successes of the UK have been wrought on a history of progress, usually and not surprisingly against the opposition of those who think it is in their self interest to maintain the status quo. How many of us now think we should still be spinning cotton by hand - and look at the opposition there was at the time to Arkwright's spinning frame. We have no choice but to recognise and accept this kind of change. The best response is to work out how to manage change successfully and soften the impact for those who are going to lose out. Moaning about the adverse effects will change nothing. Negative or destructive actions are counter-productive - "black" HSBC and it will have no effect whatsoever on the Bank. It may make you feel better at least until you work out that, in the unlikely event that it has any effect, you just damage the job security of tens of thousands of their UK employees. In theory it could also damage many millions of us who will find that our pensions and insurances are backed by funds partly invested in HSBC. In practice the HSBC share price has gone up about 10% since the announcement (though not as a result of the announcement). Back to the 18th century - some of the first mechanised cotton mills were set up in the traditional spinning region of Lancashire, as a result of opposition and sabotage the second wave were in other parts of the country resulting in a worse impact on employment in Lancashire.

More bad news from the World's Local Bank.

This e-mail just arrived in my inbox from Unifi - the trade union for the financial services sector:

HSBC closure condemned

HSBC is being slammed over another site closure and a further 180 job losses this week. The move, which affects the company's investment fund management site in Sheffield follows the bank's decision last October to offshore 4,000 jobs to India although the two moves are not directly related. UNIFI negotiator Paul Bridge called for a no-compulsory redundancy guarantee. He said: "This is devastating news for the staff and their families. It's also a double blow for Sheffield as HSBC has already earmarked its processing centre for closure."

Originally posted by max
Well said, young sir. I cannot bring myself to shed tears over white collar work being exported even though my own company is undertaking the same exercise. Where were these people during the steelworkers' & miners' strikes? Suddenly their jobs and mortgages and life styles are more important than the thousands of miners and steelworkers who have lost jobs. Similarly, all those people who were given the day off by their employers on the Countryside Alliance march. They want to protect their jobs but they did nothing when big corporations and land owners slowly squeezed the small farmers out together with the farm workers.

End of rant.
Some of the people this is affecting weren't old enough to support the miners. Which ever way you slice this, you are still destroying families or at least severley distrupting them.

I dont think this is a time to be none sympathetic towards the people this is affecting.

Redundancy packages from HSBC are way above statutory anyway so most people will be quids in...
Can totally understand a business looking to make its operations more cost effective....no different to someone buying a car from abroad and having it shipped over here
Everyone wants everything cheaper than it is...This is just on a different scale

Originally posted by major decker
Redundancy packages from HSBC are way above statutory anyway so most people will be quids in...


Out of interest, have you ever been made redundent?

I doubt a few thousand pounds makes up for losing your job, unless you can find another one quickly. There are plenty of people on this forum who can tell you that finding a job paying a decent wage in Sheffield is not easy.