Hello,

As some of you may be aware, the city planners are proposing to make some changes to the area around the Castlegate markets as part of the wider development plan for the city. (click here for more info) (http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/your-city-council/council-meetings/scrutiny-boards/del/agenda-18-september-2003/castlegate-market). We are a group of architecture students working with the council to possibly rethink and redesign these initial plans and are interested in Sheffield peoples' opinions of the area and of the markets themselves. As this forum seems to be one of the best resources for local news, rumours, and opinions, we are interested in your responses and ideas about the following:

Do you use Castlegate markets?
If so, how often and what for?
How would you feel about moving them to the Moor?
How would you feel about retaining and refurbishing them?
How would you feel about knocking them down and building new markets on the same site?
Do you think they are an important part of the city?
Do you know about the castle ruins underneath the markets?

Also any other thoughts and ideas on what should be done with the area and its surroundings would be very welcome.

The Castle markets site is a tip and a scum magnet. If/when it gets a facelift it should incorporate the castle ruins in its layout. Look at Hillsborough Barracks. BRILL !! Imagine a stone-built structure including turrets, portcullis gateways, cobbled forecourt, balconied walkways with stalls, historic statues and suble murals.
Incorporate the old ruins (protected) for viewing and what a great advert this would be for Sheffield.
No, we don't want car parks, flats or offices on this site.
It was and still is the heart of Sheffield.

Before this dump of an area is cleaned up and redeveloped it might first be an idea to cull the lowlife dregs who while waiting for their buses drop incredible amounts of litter. It's disgusting. These people should be shut away in their north eastern sheffield sink estates. There they can wallow in their own filth to their hearts content and the rest of us can go about our business in a clean city centre free of this scum.

Originally posted by cg crew
Do you use Castlegate markets?
If so, how often and what for?
How would you feel about moving them to the Moor?
How would you feel about retaining and refurbishing them?
How would you feel about knocking them down and building new markets on the same site?
Do you think they are an important part of the city?
Do you know about the castle ruins underneath the markets?

Also any other thoughts and ideas on what should be done with the area and its surroundings would be very welcome.

I use Castle Markets to buy my fruit and veg, and pet stuff.

I wouldn't want them moved to the Moor as they are much more accessible where they are (tram stops etc.).

Retaining and refurbishing them sounds great to me.

Knocking them down and re-building on the same site sounds ideal.

Yes they are an important part of the city. Many many people use them.

I know a little of the castle ruins and think it would be a great idea to make more of this fact.

Originally posted by markham
Imagine a stone-built structure including turrets, portcullis gateways, cobbled forecourt, balconied walkways with stalls, historic statues and suble murals.
Incorporate the old ruins (protected) for viewing and what a great advert this would be for Sheffield.

Sounds truly awful. Have you ever thought that we should look forwards not backwards?

I've been looking forwards and I've seen litter, filth, the ugliest buildings in the world, speed bumps, graffiti, muggings, drug soaked scumbags robbing off old ladies and kids, million decibel car stereos encroaching on MY space, no-go areas, more litter including syringes, council white-elephants pulled down after being around for only a few years (Fire service HQ, Hole in the road etc) so I think I'll indulge myself by looking backwards a bit to the times when we had some nice buildings in Sheffield.nice :thumbsup: and we had something to be proud of and was of use to the majority of Sheffielders.
I refer of course to the useless minority toys that are The Millenium Galleries, and the Crucible etc.

It's not gonna happen though is it? Thats's why I said to look forward - it's the only direction that our species is going, so I think that we should make as good a job of it as we are able. I think that looking back on a rosy past that really didn't exist (except in Victorian story books) just distracts us from getting on with the future.

Originally posted by Escafeld1889
Before this dump of an area is cleaned up and redeveloped it might first be an idea to cull the lowlife dregs who while waiting for their buses drop incredible amounts of litter. It's disgusting. These people should be shut away in their north eastern sheffield sink estates. There they can wallow in their own filth to their hearts content and the rest of us can go about our business in a clean city centre free of this scum.

WELL SAID!! CAN NOT AGREE MORE WITH YOU!

Originally posted by Tony
Sounds truly awful. Have you ever thought that we should look forwards not backwards?

We did this in the 60's and 70's and are left with the eyesore we have now.

Lets bring back rickets along with the Victorian jerry building!

Originally posted by Escafeld1889
Before this dump of an area is cleaned up and redeveloped it might first be an idea to cull the lowlife dregs who while waiting for their buses drop incredible amounts of litter. It's disgusting. These people should be shut away in their north eastern sheffield sink estates. There they can wallow in their own filth to their hearts content and the rest of us can go about our business in a clean city centre free of this scum.

These are the two reasons I used to catch the bus from the Crucible instead - the litter and the bitchy comments :rolleyes:

Oh, I'd love to have the old castle rebuilt too.

Move the markets, get some funding from English Heritage or somewhere similar to dig up the castle, encourage tourism to visit not only the castle, but the nearby Victoria Quays. At the moment the area is rough and shabby and faceless. I don't feel safe around there.

Interesting to know that the Market Tavern is available to rent. Don't anyone DARE suggest I take it on!!!!

I do agree with looking forward not back... but this is a castle, something of significant historical value. Not just that but of tourism value. Makes sense to make the best of what you have if you ask me. But giving the eyesore that is the Park way flats listing status, thats an example of looking back that is just plain wrong. If they can get £40 million to renovate them, i think a castle should in the very least be renovated.

Originally posted by markham
I've been looking forwards and I've seen litter, filth, the ugliest buildings in the world, speed bumps, graffiti, muggings, drug soaked scumbags robbing off old ladies and kids, million decibel car stereos encroaching on MY space, no-go areas, more litter including syringes, council white-elephants pulled down after being around for only a few years (Fire service HQ, Hole in the road etc) so I think I'll indulge myself by looking backwards a bit to the times when we had some nice buildings in Sheffield.nice :thumbsup: and we had something to be proud of and was of use to the majority of Sheffielders.
I refer of course to the useless minority toys that are The Millenium Galleries, and the Crucible etc.

Have you ever considered going on a Michael Douglas in Falling Down - style killing spree? Might make you feel better.

The markets are a dump. The town centre needs to become more upmarket and less greasy chip shop northern.

Looking forward needn't mean denying our heritage. There's plenty of examples round the country of projects which incorporate a historic building into a modern development. They're not always successful, but that doesn't automatically mean Sheffield will repeat the same mistakes. Hopefully they'll learn from them ... though I have my doubts (and having not seen the proposals yet they are major doubts). This part of the city is potentially a major gateway - people's first impression of Sheffield's centre, so whatever is built needs to be the best the city has seen (not really that difficult to achieve...). And Victoria Quays deserves a proper connection with the city centre.

Originally posted by markham
...I refer of course to the useless minority toys that are The Millenium Galleries, and the Crucible etc.

These are vital elements of a well-rounded city (and fantastic buildings) - they're only 'minority toys' in the eyes of people who can't be bothered to go and enjoy them.

8) Nah Den Ace.......

Originally posted by t020
The markets are a dump. The town centre needs to become more upmarket and less greasy chip shop northern.

t020, have you ever thought about moving to Harrogate or becoming one of the Cheshire Set?

You are obviously too highfalutin for these parts!!!! ;)

Regards,

Spacehopper.

Originally posted by Spacehopper
8) Nah Den Ace.......



t020, have you ever thought about moving to Harrogate or becoming one of the Cheshire Set?

You are obviously too highfalutin for these parts!!!! ;)

Regards,

Spacehopper.

Plenty of cities have more upmarket shops than we do. Our town centre doesn't cater enough for people that want these types of shops, but rather for people who like Poundland. No wonder Sheffield is still seen as a 'hole to anyone outside.

Thanks for all the comments! We see that a lot of people have strong views on this area of the city. A lot of interesting, informed, and (in some cases) frightening responses. In addition to comments gathered around Castlegate itself, we'll be presenting these (edited!) comments along with your name and email address* as part of the package we'll be presenting to the council.

As it is there are several options which include:

1) Creation of a 'scruffy area' that retains the markets as they are and opens up more retail opportunities to 'lower end' retailers (Netto, Poundland, etc)

2) Bulldozing the entire area to create a park

3) Gentrification of the Castlegate area, relocating the markets, and building offices, car parks, and yuppy flats.

4) Selling the area to the Tussaud's Group in order to create a Medieval-themed fun-park with jousting tournaments and a fibreglass recreation of the old castle!

Ok, some of these may not be entirely true...

*No, just kidding. It'll be anonymous. If you don't want any comments presenting at all just put a note in this thread. Sorry, we should have made this clear from the start.

Originally posted by t020
Plenty of cities have more upmarket shops than we do. Our town centre doesn't cater enough for people that want these types of shops, but rather for people who like Poundland. No wonder Sheffield is still seen as a 'hole to anyone outside.
:rolleyes:

I hope you're trying to be funny, i really do...cos you're coming across as 100% bigot here.

the only reason the town centre is limited in shopping is because of Meadowhell, as far as i can see - there's certainly no shortage of avid consumers in this city. ;)

i'd really like the castlegate area to be properly improved, it would certainly attract more of the "upmarket shops" that t020 seems to want and it's a real eyesore at the moment. it's slap bang in the middle of the city but it's hardly a great advertisement for Sheffield... so much more could be done with it.

and for what it's worth, i really like Poundland.

:P

Manchester has the Trafford Centre yet also has a vibrant town centre. Don't use Meadowhall as an excuse.

8) Nah Den Ace.........

The Market Tavern has gone through many incarnations in its time (in the 80s, I'm sure the upstairs bar was called the China Gardens).

Anyway, about '86 it was shutting down (the landlord had had enough......probably!), and they were selling the beer off well cheap on the closing night. It was at the weekend, and the lure of cheap ale ensured it was packed to the rafters. Because of all this added activity, the bar staff decided that all the health and hygiene training that they had received was a waste of time! They decided that glasses didn't need cleaning after one punter had finished their drink, and it was perfectly acceptable to use this glass for the next person's drink.

I was too fortified on cheap grog to argue and continued supping. The next day, I woke up with spots all over my face! I put this directly down to the lack of hygiene of either the staff or the punters of the establishment.

I categorically refute all allegations that it had anything at all to do with the 10 bob brass I picked up on the way home!


Aaah, Castlegate..........happy days..........in a haze!!!!

Meanwhile, just touching down on Planet Earth for one minute! I think The markets area ought to be revamped. Bur definitely incorporate the castle ruins to showcase Sheffield heritage........ a treasure for locals and tourists alike.

Regards,

Spacehopper.

Originally posted by t020
Manchester has the Trafford Centre yet also has a vibrant town centre. Don't use Meadowhall as an excuse.

The secret of Manchester's success was down to the IRA bomb. Before this, it was a grubby city no better or worse than Sheffield.

Lots of redevlopment with nice new buildings and fronts encouraged stores to return.

Originally posted by cg crew

Do you use Castlegate markets?
If so, how often and what for?
How would you feel about moving them to the Moor?
How would you feel about retaining and refurbishing them?
How would you feel about knocking them down and building new markets on the same site?
Do you think they are an important part of the city?
Do you know about the castle ruins underneath the markets?

Also any other thoughts and ideas on what should be done with the area and its surroundings would be very welcome.

I don't use the markets. I've always felt that the market area has long been in need of regeneration. This is an entire quarter of the retail centre of the city which is now off the map and ignored. It seems curious that millions will be spent on an entire new street (New Burgess Street, on the current site of Cole Brothers) when perhaps it would be more prudent to spend it on Angel Street/Waingate/Castle Gate. I would propose that it is the Moor that meets it's long overdue end at the hands of the developers, being as it is an entire concrete corridor of dour, flat 1960's buildings which do little at all for Sheffield. Indeed, the Moor is simply a cul-de-sac of low end retailers culminating at Moorfoot, whereas a redeveloped Castlegate will lead into the vastly underused Victoria Quays in one direction and the charming Campo Lane/Paradise Square area in another. Retaining the buildings in their existing state is simply not an option. Such concrete structures consume a huge amount of money to be kept in anything approaching a reasonable state, they are old, dirty and ugly. Previous city administrations gleefully destroyed the historic market buildings, so I'm sure the present council will help convey listed status on it and we'll be left with the retail equivalent of Parkhill. It should be a priority to rebuild a new, future-proof market that not only provides a much needed service to Sheffield but can also be compared to Leed's excellent facility that also caters for a more eclectic customer base.

The castle remains, with foresight (a quality our council often fall far short of), could be opened up as an attraction that would bring a greater tourist footfall to the area. On the back of that, small cafes, bars, shops and a true, easily accessible link to the canal basin would provide long lasting regeneration to this often overlooked part of Sheffield.

If I may, I'd also like to comment on that the Crucible and Millennium Gallaries are an integral part of Sheffield. They are both hugely successful and do a great deal to show the city in a positive light. Manchester City Centre was for years a grubby no-go area but was forced to regenerate itself after the IRA bomb in 1996. Alison Nimmo, who headed that project, was in charge at Sheffield One, until she got sick of the council's procrastination and resigned.

Originally posted by Escafeld1889
Before this dump of an area is cleaned up and redeveloped it might first be an idea to cull the lowlife dregs who while waiting for their buses drop incredible amounts of litter. It's disgusting. These people should be shut away in their north eastern sheffield sink estates. There they can wallow in their own filth to their hearts content and the rest of us can go about our business in a clean city centre free of this scum.


Awww.thats not a very nice thing to say! I shop at Castlemarket regularly and while i agree it needs to be upgraded, and that people DO litter; its not that bad. There seems to be a very downmarket feel to it, much like how the Moor compares to Orchard Square.
We need to realise that its more of a thoroughfare than other parts of Sheffield and that a transient population would tend to take less ownership than one which uses the facilities to sit and have a sandwich or something [like Orchard sq and the Moor]. Therefore they would tend to treat it worse. Maybe we need to brainstorm some idea that would almost force people to realise what a valuable source of entertainment and commerce it is.
No matter what you do, I would NOT be eating a sandwich at Castlemarket, I love it! It has character, it has a life of its own...its stinks [but i guess you can't have everything right :-)]
So while i think there needs to be some improvement, I dont think we should just condemn the entire area, and its users because of its outward appearance.

Originally posted by MichaelTravis
Have you ever considered going on a Michael Douglas in Falling Down - style killing spree? Might make you feel better.

No need now. I feel much better thanks. Minor blood rush to the head, thats all. Still looking backwards though I'm afraid.
Thanks for concern though.

Been of Polish heritage I theres one shop in CastleMarkets I alway visit. Its run by a small woman of undetermined age. All I can say about its stock of meat products is yummy yum yum.

Phase one of the development will see the first of five office blocks built, together with the car park, public realm and retail outlets. The remaining area will be landscaped until after the first office accommodation is let, releasing the second and subsequent phases for development.


Work is expected to begin during the Summer 2004, with the first phase complete by the end of 2005.

When exactly is summer is the work due to start?? I can't wait!!!

I've just started working with the PTE on Exchnage street for a month, and the area is something of a tip compared to the last time I worked down there about 10 years ago.

If you look at the similar area in Leeds (OMG...I'm going to say something complementary about Leeds) where the Bus STation is next to the Markets, it's considerably better. Still rough, but the Kirkgate Markets area has the covered and open Markets next to each other, access is easier and well publicised and trot up the road and you're straight in to the shopping centre of the town.

Putting something in the area to act as a path from the Quays to town is a nice idea stalled only by the presence of a bloody great main road...even with footbridges it still cuts off the Quays area.

Do something to preserve and expose the Castle ruins - the Hillsborough Barracks model around there might work, actually. Build something that's open, inviting, possibly with affordable flats built in.

Joe

Originally posted by Abdul

Oh, I'd love to have the old castle rebuilt too. [/B]

I wouldn't go that far, what with the building regs and health and safety nowadays.

All the rugs would have to be properly nailed down (trip hazard), the roaring fires (gas fuelled) would need safety fencing, the rats would need washing. they'd have to put in modern kitchens, the serfs would need to be paid the minimum wage, the jester would need a microphone and amp, it'd need electric lights, no tallow candles allowed. No straw or wood shavings on the floor. The list is endless.

Also, modern building materials hardly make for the authentic Castle experience. A Castle with uPVC windows??

Quoth JoeP...
I've just started working with the PTE on Exchnage street for a month, and the area is something of a tip compared to the last time I worked down there about 10 years ago.

If you look at the similar area in Leeds (OMG...I'm going to say something complementary about Leeds) where the Bus Station is next to the Markets, it's considerably better. Still rough, but the Kirkgate Markets area has the covered and open Markets next to each other, access is easier and well publicised and trot up the road and you're straight in to the shopping centre of the town.



but, joe, that is the very thing that puzzles me....

the sheaf market had an outdoor market just beside it, a-la ("Mucky") Leeds.

The sheaf market building was nice, (for a 1970's concrete construction.) and I do not understand why the more "scrabby", dingy and run-down castle market was not demolished first.

I also don't understand why the setts market (The "umbrella market) had to go, there was a vibrancy about the hustle and bustle there, even if the stall holders *were* too fond of blocking the aisles, so that someone with a wheelchair or pram/ buggy could not get round easily.

I understand that Leeds did not get as heavily hit in the city centre as Sheffield did, which is why they still have the beautiful and ornate Arcades, and the really pretty market hall -the earliest part of which dates from 1870-odd. (72?) (oh! gosh! *I* am praising Leeds too! I think I urgently need a sit-down - and a stiff gin!) -and Sheffield has to suffer the 1950s/60's "carbuncles" along our "concrete canyons". we lost a heck of a lot of our significant buildings.

The only arcades that we have left in Sheffield are a couple of dissapointing ones, in the vicinity of high-street. (and i hate to admit it, but, I do enjoy wandering around, and shopping, in "mucky" Leeds' city centre, and I think that the arcades are really nice (shudders! : ;) : ) to wander through.

I remember one, near Suggs on Pinstone Street/ The Moor which led through to Union Street.

We had the old corn exchange, and the old norfolk market hall, but i cannot remember them as well as I would like. Were they worth saving? were they architecturally aesthetic, or outstanding?

( I remember the rag-n-tag, and have memories of the market hall where the "I-guess-your-weight" woman had the weighing scales)

PT

I think its important for the city centre to have a decent well sized market no matter where it is located.....Leeds.Barnsley,Doncaster etc. seem to have good markets so why has'nt a large city like ours.

how much of the castle is actually left- and whereabouts is it? If there's significant foundations then they need to be utilised. We can't cover them up again, that would just be pure stupidity and very inconsiderate on the part of the council and other planners involved.

Originally posted by markham
The Castle markets site is a tip and a scum magnet. If/when it gets a facelift it should incorporate the castle ruins in its layout. Look at Hillsborough Barracks. BRILL !! Imagine a stone-built structure including turrets, portcullis gateways, cobbled forecourt, balconied walkways with stalls, historic statues and suble murals.
Incorporate the old ruins (protected) for viewing and what a great advert this would be for Sheffield.
No, we don't want car parks, flats or offices on this site.
It was and still is the heart of Sheffield.

Castlefield in Manchester is a good example - there is a roman fort and green fields by the canal. It is a haven of peace and quiet despite being a few minutes walk from the city centre.

Get the castle exposed and some green open spaces by the river. Keep all the shops up near the Moor and Fargate.

Sorry to dig this thread back up people but found a page relevant to what may happen:-

http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/your-city-council/council-meetings/scrutiny/del/agenda-18th-march-2004/castlegate-area

Originally posted by Classic Rock
Move the markets, get some funding from English Heritage or somewhere similar to dig up the castle, encourage tourism to visit not only the castle, but the nearby Victoria Quays. At the moment the area is rough and shabby and faceless. I don't feel safe around there.



Here here!

Get Shefield Archeology dept to redig the ruins and then have it made part of a tourist display (anyone been to York recently, they know how to do it!) and centrepiece of the market.

Originally posted by MichaelTravis
Have you ever considered going on a Michael Douglas in Falling Down - style killing spree? Might make you feel better.

It could all start with a bad breakfast in the rooftop cafe at the market then escalate!

Maybe it could be Falling Down 2: Redevolpment

One of the problems with Sheffield town centre, is that the main shopping corridor has always been a long snake. Starting from moorfoot, going up to pinstone street, fargate, high street angel street , castle street haymarket. Much of the shops on this snake have been tatty and neglected, remember the boarded up empty shops on high street which were like that for years.

I think if Sheffield is to have any success as a retail centre again it needs to build up decent areas to widen out the retail snake. Like Orchard square was. Only problem with the original Square concept was that the rents were the highest in UK after Oxford St London. And though extremely pleasent and busy, many smaller concerns went bust. Now it's dominated by a Bookshop which has taken over adjacent units and a massive TK maxx which sells nasty chav labelsportswear in it's LG floor. Far less pleasent than the Lovely food court was. We need to make use of areas like this to incourage craft shops and smaller retail areas, rather than faceless chain store places.