This afternoon, Sunday, its the old firm match in Scotland, Rangers v Celtic or vice versa. What is the English equivilant?

I don't think there is anything in England that really compares.

At the moment Rangers and Celtic are so much bigger than every other team in Scotland that Rangers v Celtic really is the only show in town on days when they meet.

And with the whole religious divide thing, it seems to inflame passions even more.

Celtic took Rangers to pieces today.

Final score 2-1, which put Celtic 5 points clear with 2 games to go.

The nearest team is Hibernian, who are 24 points off Rangers. The Scottish league is an absolute joke.

yes, there are problems with the SPL- not enough money, and what money there is, is concentrated within two clubs.
however, surely similarities can be seen when comparing the SPL and the 'greatest league in the world'- the premiership. only three teams have seriously contended for the title this year, and before roman started dishing out the money to chelsea, it has only been two teams for the past few years.
smaller teams (ie those with less well off chairmen etc) always seem to struggle as they cannot compete with the lure of the larger clubs when trying to get new players or they simply cannot afford the transfer fees/ wages. this has further widened the gaps between the top three, the middle ten teams and then the rest. this gap in wealth/ talent etc is evident when you see games like man utd- newcastle last week, although yes there are suprises from time to time (norwich- congratulations!). and yes, teams like everton perform well and surprise many folk- but will they really be able to challenge arsenal, man utd and chelsea for a top three place?
so before you start slagging of a league and players who work damn hard and DO produce some very good fitba, you may want to worry about what's happening in your own league?!?

ps- celtic were fantastic today! and bellamy's goal was absolutely superb!!!

Comparing English and Scottish football is a bit daft.

England is around 9 times the population of Scotland.

Scottish League should be compared with leagues like Norway, Portugal and Belgium.

With the exception of Porto in the last couple of seasons I think they bear fairly decent comparison.

English equivalent?

A good night's sleep? Digging the weeds? Painting the Brick Sh'thouse?

Take your pick.

emmwalker; the Scottish league is seen as a joke by most countries. While the premiership isn't the greatest or most competitive league in the world, it's light years away from the Glasgow Premiership you've got going on over the border.

Originally posted by Agent Gypo
emmwalker; the Scottish league is seen as a joke by most countries. While the premiership isn't the greatest or most competitive league in the world, it's light years away from the Glasgow Premiership you've got going on over the border.

And when was the last time an English team beat one of the old firm, friendly or real???:clap:

In most terms (stadium, fanbase, turnover) Rangers and Celtic blow away most English teams, they just need to work on the playing side of things, which will never improve enough while they continue to play in Scotland - as the best players will not come. Can you see Zidane turning out against Inverness Caley Thistle on a rainy January afternoon?

Man Utd beat Ranger at Ibrox 1-0 and 3-0 at Old Trafford in the 2003 Champions league.

Man Utd beat Celtic 4-0 in July 2003 in a pre-season tour of USA

Liverpool beat Celtic 5-1 in the champions world series 2004 in July 2004.

Chelsea beat Celtic 4-2 in the same competition as above.

Originally posted by Lickszz
Man Utd beat Ranger at Ibrox 1-0 and 3-0 at Old Trafford in the 2003 Champions league.

Man Utd beat Celtic 4-0 in July 2003 in a pre-season tour of USA

Liverpool beat Celtic 5-1 in the champions world series 2004 in July 2004.

Chelsea beat Celtic 4-2 in the same competition as above. Suppose I deserve that - my selcetive memory! :heyhey:
I was thinking more of Rangers beating Spurs & Fulham this year in friendlies, Arsenal the year before, Celtics defeats of Blackburn & Liverpool in the UEFA cup a couple of years ago & 4-3 win in Ryan Giggs testimonial.

Anyway - there are examples either way, the point remains the same. The Old Firm teams would not be walkovers for Premiership teams were they to play in the same league, and after playing agains a better quality opposition week in week out would heading into european spots within a few years.

I've never thought they would be walkovers. I think they would be top 6, it would take a couple of seasons to find their feet.

They are both massive clubs with massive attendances which would benefit the Premiership. There is the hooligan element though, which is a concern.

Neither Celtic or Rangers would qualify for the Champions League if they were in the premiership, at best they would challenge for a UEFA or Intertoto cup spot.

It doesn't really seem to make much sense crossing the border, neither team is strong enough to compete with the premiership bigboys.

Most premiership teams arent good enough to compete with the premiership big boys. Look at the league standings for proof if you want.
Rangers & Celtic if they were to be dropped into the premiership right now, would struggle - after a few years they would both be top 10 teams at least - they have huge fan bases, which in the premiership would generate even huger revenues.
And if you think money cant buy success, tell that to Mr Abramovic.

oh, and what hooligan element ??

They have no more of a hooligan element than any other team???

Originally posted by floyd77
oh, and what hooligan element ??

They have no more of a hooligan element than any other team???

I never said they did have more of a hooligan element than any other team, but they like most teams do have them. My point is that it fuel existing hooligans in this country and give them extra encouragement.

So what youre saying is that Rangers & Celtics hooligans are 'more hooligany' than other teams???

To quote the Bill from many years ago - "What Tosh"

Remember that only two teams can play at once, meaning two sets of fans, and two sets of troublemakers, so there wont be any more people to fuel or encourage anyone. The hooligan problem would not get worse if the old firm were to play here.

No point worrying about it - it will never happen anyway.

Please forgive my editing your post.

Originally posted by floyd77
So what youre saying is that Rangers & Celtics hooligans are 'more hooligany' than other teams???

Read above, I said all hooligans exist in all clubs but my point is that the rivalry between England and Scotland that runs much deeper than football. For the Scots, a lot of suppressed nationalism has always traditionally been vented in football. Why do think the annual meetings between England & Scotland were scrapped?

There was a documentary on a few weeks back which featured Celtic/Rangers sectarianism and what goes on behind the scenes and the clubs board seemingly unwilling to tackle the obvious problems. Some of it was horrifying.

Originally posted by floyd77
Remember that only two teams can play at once, meaning two sets of fans, and two sets of troublemakers, so there wont be any more people to fuel or encourage anyone. The hooligan problem would not get worse if the old firm were to play here.
It's not a case of only 2 teams playing at once. For example the Premiership from next year will be made up of teams from Midlands, London and North East with the exception of Portsmouth. This will mean that in the Midlands there will be about 8 teams in a very small radius, throw Scottish hooligans into that mix and I think there may be more than two sets of trouble makers to manage.

Originally posted by floyd77
No point worrying about it - it will never happen anyway.

As long as there is an equal vote from all clubs then it's not going to happen, as the smaller clubs would never vote for it as it would mean 2 less places for the smaller clubs.

However, the depth in quality in the Scottish leagues is terrible. Both Rangers and Celtic have debts and I think eventually they will be forced to join the English league if the opportunity arises.

Originally posted by floyd77
So what youre saying is that Rangers & Celtics hooligans are 'more hooligany' than other teams???

To quote the Bill from many years ago - "What Tosh"

Remember that only two teams can play at once, meaning two sets of fans, and two sets of troublemakers, so there wont be any more people to fuel or encourage anyone. The hooligan problem would not get worse if the old firm were to play here.

No point worrying about it - it will never happen anyway.

the problem with the celtic/rangers games is, it aint just about footbal, it is also about religion!!

where as we have sheffield derbies and there will always be an element of trouble, but most of the fans can get along.

in glasgow, you would not even dare speak to one of the opposition fans.

Originally posted by Robbie_Lovin
in glasgow, you would not even dare speak to one of the opposition fans.

this only applies on derby days... and at times like this when the glorious Rangers (i'm a scot by parentage) snatch the SPL title from Celtic in the 88th minute of the last game of the season (and then secure it in the 90th minute) thanks to Motherwell's Scott McDonald who decided to leave it late, but make victory all the more sweet :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

For the Scots, a lot of suppressed nationalism has always traditionally been vented in football. Why do think the annual meetings between England & Scotland were scrapped?
Nothing to do with the Old Firm - Celtic are an Irish team, and Rangers fans regulary wear England strips. Very few Rangers or Celtic supporters also support Scotland. The 'Tartan Army' is made up of fans from other clubs.
There was a documentary on a few weeks back which featured Celtic/Rangers sectarianism and what goes on behind the scenes and the clubs board seemingly unwilling to tackle the obvious problems. Some of it was horrifying.
And thats why we dont believe everthing on TV. I grew up in Glasgow and never saw anything like that - if you go looking for it you will find it though, even in Sheffield. The motivation may not be the same, but I guarantee sheffield hospitals would get busier on derby days too.
It's not a case of only 2 teams playing at once. For example the Premiership from next year will be made up of teams from Midlands, London and North East with the exception of Portsmouth. This will mean that in the Midlands there will be about 8 teams in a very small radius, throw Scottish hooligans into that mix and I think there may be more than two sets of trouble makers to manage. What??? Why??? You're assuming that scottish fans will cause trouble wherever they go, week in week out - and more than english fans. What evidence or proof makes you think this would happen. Whats to say substituing two of those Midland teams for Rangers & Celtic will increase trouble? Surely it will spread teams out more over the country? Remember that we do have a league in Scotland too, and there is no mass riot every week when Rangers and Celtic play!
However, the depth in quality in the Scottish leagues is terrible. Both Rangers and Celtic have debts and I think eventually they will be forced to join the English league if the opportunity arises. Rangers and Celtic would love to play in the Premiership, as would their fans - so there would be no forcing involved - it would be 'allowing'! If they were allowed, they'd join tomorrow.the problem with the celtic/rangers games is, it aint just about footbal, it is also about religion!!
where as we have sheffield derbies and there will always be an element of trouble, but most of the fans can get along.
in glasgow, you would not even dare speak to one of the opposition fans.
Not true - I'm a rangers fan, and my flatmate in Glasgow was a Celtic fan. I have lots of Celtic supporting friends, just like lots of Wednesday fans may have Blade friends.
There are nutters out there who do still make it about religion, but they should be treated as such, nutters who are definately in the minority and should not be allowed anywhere near a football stadium.

P.S. Congratlations to the mighty Glasgow Rangers for stepping in when Celtics bottle crashed!

Originally posted by sheff_minx
this only applies on derby days... and at times like this when the glorious Rangers (i'm a scot by parentage) snatch the SPL title from Celtic in the 88th minute of the last game of the season (and then secure it in the 90th minute) thanks to Motherwell's Scott McDonald who decided to leave it late, but make victory all the more sweet :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Boooooooo! :gag:

We wuz robbed! ROBBED!! :rant:

CELTIC! CELTIC! CELTIC! CELTIC!

StarSparkle :)

Originally posted by floyd77
Nothing to do with the Old Firm - Celtic are an Irish team, and Rangers fans regulary wear England strips. Very few Rangers or Celtic supporters also support Scotland. The 'Tartan Army' is made up of fans from other clubs.


What complete and utter tosh!!!!! Celtic FC were formed at St Mary's Church in Glasgow in November 1887 in a bid to alleviate poverty in the city's East End parishes. They are a Scottish team!
Are you implying because the majority of fans might be catholic that this equates to Irish? :confused:

And I have never ever in my life seen a scotsman, Rangers fan or otherwise wearing an England strip. Perhaps your confusing english men that live in Scotland, that also support Rangers.

The tartan army is made up of loyal Scots fans that support many teams, Rangers and Celtic included. We Scots are very passionate about our national team albeit a crap one. You are right about the sectarianism, although it is not as bad as it once was. In fact Scotland matches are when you will see Rangers and Celtic fans united in their support. I don't think you would find one Rangers or Celtic supporter (or any other Scottish footy fan) that did not support the national team!! I have no idea what your basing your information on :confused:

Originally posted by cobaltblue
What complete and utter tosh!!!!! Celtic FC were formed at St Mary's Church in Glasgow in November 1887 in a bid to alleviate poverty in the city's East End parishes. They are a Scottish team!
Are you implying because the majority of fans might be catholic that this equates to Irish? :confused:

And I have never ever in my life seen a scotsman, Rangers fan or otherwise wearing an England strip. Perhaps your confusing english men that live in Scotland, that also support Rangers.

The tartan army is made up of loyal Scots fans that support many teams, Rangers and Celtic included. We Scots are very passionate about our national team albeit a crap one. You are right about the sectarianism, although it is not as bad as it once was. In fact Scotland matches are when you will see Rangers and Celtic fans united in their support. I don't think you would find one Rangers or Celtic supporter (or any other Scottish footy fan) that did not support the national team!! I have no idea what your basing your information on :confused:

Well said, Cobaltblue.

And we Scots are a passionate people, so there will be strong feelings brought out by the national game.

StarSparkle

I'm basing it on being Scottish, and a Rangers fan - who used to live with a Celtic fan and visit both Parkhead and Ibrox.

What complete and utter tosh!!!!! Celtic FC were formed at St Mary's Church in Glasgow in November 1887 in a bid to alleviate poverty in the city's East End parishes. They are a Scottish team!
Wrong - Celtic were founded in 1888 by Brother Walfrid, an Irish Priest and leader of a teaching institute called the Marist Order in Glasgow, he saw the establishment of a football club as the means to raise money for his charity, The Poor Children's Dinner Table, which was founded to help poor Irish immigrants in Glasgow’s East End. It was also an opportunity to give Glasgow’s Irish population something that they could call their own. Brother Walfrid chose the name Celtic as an identifiable characteristic of both the Irish and Scottish roots of the club.

Celtic are an Irish team - ok not actually Irish, but may as well be. You dont see Saltire's being waved at Parkhead, you see Tricolours. No Celtic fan on earth would deny their affiliation with Ireland - so no, its not because they are Catholic.

And I have never ever in my life seen a scotsman, Rangers fan or otherwise wearing an England strip. Perhaps your confusing english men that live in Scotland, that also support Rangers. Perhaps there are some english Rangers supporters, but not all. I know many Rangers fans that own / wear England tops. Union Jacks are flown at Ibrox as they are proud of being british, and the name 'Rangers' is taken from an English Rugby club.


The tartan army is made up of loyal Scots fans that support many teams, Rangers and Celtic included
I still say this is not true, almost to the man, every Rangers or Celtic fan I know really couldnt care less about Scotlands national team - even more so now that they're rubbish. Of course there are some Rangers & Celtic fans who still follow the national team, but considering the sheer numbers of Old Firm fans, which dwarf those of other teams, they hardly register. Something supported by a poll done by Sportscene (Scotlands version of MOTD) a couple of years ago.

And just to show that I'm not bitter - comiserations to Celtic, an unfortunate, yet hugely amusing end to the season.:heyhey:

Originally posted by floyd77
Celtic are an Irish team - ok not actually Irish, but may as well be. You dont see Saltire's being waved at Parkhead, you see Tricolours. No Celtic fan on earth would deny their affiliation with Ireland - so no, its not because they are Catholic.


Originally posted by floyd77
Perhaps there are some english Rangers supporters, but not all. I know many Rangers fans that own / wear England tops. Union Jacks are flown at Ibrox as they are proud of being british, and the name 'Rangers' is taken from an English Rugby club.
[/B]

My apologies floyd77 I stand corrected re: clubs history. However, I stand by my point. Irrespective of their affiliations with other countries they are both Scottish teams that play in the Scottish Premier League. The tri-colours and Union Jacks, Red Hand of Ulster flags etc, are for the most part the bigots and the sectarianism element. I support neither of these teams, I'm basing my opinions on friends who are in supporters clubs for both sides.

I guess as far as scotsman in england tops :shocked: and Rangers and Celtic fans not supporting our national team we have vastly different experiences and will just have to agree to disagree. Lol, I will take your word for it, it is just a phenomenon I have not yet stumbled upon!!! :D

Look at it this way - lets say (for example only) that the Old Firm have 100,000 fans, the rest of Scotlands teams only have 100,000 fans - so the old firm represent 50% of Scottish footballs fanbase.

If that were so, then you'd expect 50% of National team followers to also be Old Firm fans with an even distribution.
I think that poll put them at 10% of Scotland fans

anyway the league tells its own story, me I'm gutted as the celts handed the league cup to the gers as they couldn't kill off motherwell, just goes to show no guarantees in the crazy world of football...:loopy:
Kimbara

would just like to say that there are celtic fans who are ardent supporters of the scottish national team (me, me, me!!) and have no affiliation with ireland whatsoever! and that i agree with many of the comments posted above, that the majority of fans from both sides of the old firm are friends/ relatives with folk from the dark side, as lots of the fans do realise that although football is great, it is just a game and should be kept in perspective! (especially after the unfortunate occurances last weekend (bloomin motherwell!) and the very sad news from the o'neill family)