Congratulations Wisewood for an exellent OFSTED.

Now, perhaps we could look at incorporating the practices and policies of the school into the new school. Constantly reminding those few people who continue to read this thread that SOCS feel let down by both Labour and the Lib Dems doesn't really achieve anything.

I'm sure we could move this discussion forward as to what good can be taken from both schools into the new one?

Surely the best of both schools will be put into the new school, isnt that one of the reasons why there is an executive head in charge of both schools.

Masons, I don't want to go over this forever but we all know that the school merger is going ahead. Wisewood's fabulous report and experienced team will be a benefit to the new school and contribute to the planning of the policies and curriculum.

No doubt jobs will go unfortunately from either of the schools but that was clear from the first proposal.

The traffic issue is a red herring in my opinion, the only reason traffic will be a major issue is if parents insist on driving their children to school. If proper travel plans are put in place via walking and buses that shouldn't be an issue unless some wish to continue to make it so.

I just think the constant badgering that our children are being done a disservice and will suffer as a result will if perpetuated become a self fulfilling prophecy. I have a child at WW therefore have a vested interest in the future plans and from what I have heard the uncertainty and criticism of the plans makes the kids feel uneasy and out of place.

edit: Dunney : yes exactly.

Surely the best of both schools will be put into the new school, isnt that one of the reasons why there is an executive head in charge of both schools.

You would have thought that would be true! but i have my doubts .
I recall in one of the labour consultations " it may take a few years to get the school to a high standard"
So in other words some pupils may be missing out on what wisewood has now was asked - and the reply was we are looking at the long term!!!:loopy:

Now i deffo cant say if the school will go ahead - As it has got to be passed by planning etc - now this is a sticky point and will be checked that the council have done all they can.
wait and see still - if im honest i think its 60% that the merger will go ahead

More than 60% I would think.

Good to have a school that will give ALL kids in the area a great education.

More than 60% I would think.

Good to have a school that will give ALL kids in the area a great education.

Having a 6th form should have a positive impact. Those children who want to continue their education to A level standard won't have to travel across the city, and I believe secondary schools with 6th forms generally have higher standards.

The school will go ahead 99.9 per cent. Plans are well advanced and will shortly be going for approval, money has already been committed

Having a 6th form should have a positive impact. Those children who want to continue their education to A level standard won't have to travel across the city, and I believe secondary schools with 6th forms generally have higher standards.

As I see it they dont get a choice about continuing their education anymore since they now have to stay in education untill theyre 18.
thats what John Bigley told parents of current y6 pupils anyway

As I see it they dont get a choice about continuing their education anymore since they now have to stay in education untill theyre 18.
thats what John Bigley told parents of current y6 pupils anyway

Interesting bit of info (I'm out of touch, my grandchildren are still tiny, and my children left school a long time ago). I just hope there will be non-academic and practical courses for the children who don't have the desire or ability to take up higher education.

More than 60% I would think.

Good to have a school that will give ALL kids in the area a great education.

The point is that not ALL kids in the area will get a great education as the 'new school' is NOT going to be big enough to cater for them.

If both schools were to stay - then at least ALL kids in the area could get a great education under the direction of a joint head teacher.

New secondary will be too small (http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/New-secondary-will-be-too.5302576.jp) - claim as featured in Sheffield Star

New secondary will be too small (http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/New-secondary-will-be-too.5302576.jp) - claim as featured in Sheffield Star


Just kinda shows thats SOCS have been right from DAY 1, SCHOOL NOT BIG ENUFF, and Big traffic problems :thumbsup:
(so to all those who seemed to think we did not know what we was talking about :hihi::loopy:)

To answer mr sangar - im abit lost as not so long ago im sure i read in the star some school across sheffield will not get BSF money as there will be cut backs!! tho this does not affect the sham merger school

Just kinda shows thats SOCS have been right from DAY 1, SCHOOL NOT BIG ENUFF, and Big traffic problems :thumbsup:
(so to all those who seemed to think we did not know what we was talking about :hihi::loopy:)

To answer mr sangar - im abit lost as not so long ago im sure i read in the star some school across sheffield will not get BSF money as there will be cut backs!! tho this does not affect the sham merger school

In the article he also says. (see below)

" Coun Sangar said he would ensure the design of the new schools at both Forge Valley and nearby Bradfield would be flexible enough to allow expansion if there was a rise in the local school population in the future."

In the article he also says. (see below)

" Coun Sangar said he would ensure the design of the new schools at both Forge Valley and nearby Bradfield would be flexible enough to allow expansion if there was a rise in the local school population in the future."

He did say this. However, it doesnt give a concrete solution to the problem does it. Bradfield is planned to be rebuilt in 2011 for a limited pupil population. Figures clearly prove that this along with Forge Valley is not sufficient for the catchments of the two school in 2011 and gets progressively worse.

Why are people happy to accept that its OK to build a school which will be flexible "if" there is a rise in the local school population in future. :loopy:

The school buildings for Forge Valley and Bradfield should both be built for the known demand in the area when they are built (we all know its going to rise even further). We should not have this wait and see attitude. Even if buildings are flexible it will take a while to expand them unless the plan all along is to chuck in mobiles.

What future is Councillor Sangar talking about, they have the figures, they know there isnt space now and they know its going to get worse. They also know that some action clearly needs to be taken now. No if or buts or flexibility. Coucillors and officers should be pulling out the stops to come up with a solution. Taking no action or the wait and see stance will come back and bite someone on the bum in the not too distant future !!

He did say this. However, it doesnt give a concrete solution to the problem does it. Bradfield is planned to be rebuilt in 2011 for a limited pupil population. Figures clearly prove that this along with Forge Valley is not sufficient for the catchments of the two school in 2011 and gets progressively worse.

Why are people happy to accept that its OK to build a school which will be flexible "if" there is a rise in the local school population in future. :loopy:

The school buildings for Forge Valley and Bradfield should both be built for the known demand in the area when they are built (we all know its going to rise even further). We should not have this wait and see attitude. Even if buildings are flexible it will take a while to expand them unless the plan all along is to chuck in mobiles.

What future is Councillor Sangar talking about, they have the figures, they know there isnt space now and they know its going to get worse. They also know that some action clearly needs to be taken now. No if or buts or flexibility. Coucillors and officers should be pulling out the stops to come up with a solution. Taking no action or the wait and see stance will come back and bite someone on the bum in the not too distant future !!

Yes agreed Chavs:thumbsup:

Thinks still dont add up !!! and they did not in the first place when Sheffield labour party first -started there consultation

Mobiles will happen im told :loopy:
my it seems a long time ago when LIB DEMS would fight to stop the merger
and would do everything in there power to do so!!

sham merger goes on and on ....

Now im not sure on this but if plans have changed from the first consultation (By the outvoted sheffield labour party)
Then should there be anouther Consultation by LIB DEMS if they are changing any plans etc!!
The reason they are trying to avoid one im told is they dont want the Public flak that Labour party got ;)
Over to you Joe Taylor !!!!!!!

My daughter is starting Myers Grove in Sept. We live in Crookes and this was the school she was allocated (we moved to Crookes 1st March) It's 2 miles from our house to Myers and if this merger does go ahead as planned then I have no idea where this new school is or how she'd get there!.

From what I've read the merger is going to be a good thing, extra money means extra resourses which in turn benefits the kids that go there.

A school place isn't a definite anyway no matter what feeder school your child attends, it just may turn out to be more difficult to get your child into the school when it becomes more popular.

My daughter is starting Myers Grove in Sept. We live in Crookes and this was the school she was allocated (we moved to Crookes 1st March) It's 2 miles from our house to Myers and if this merger does go ahead as planned then I have no idea where this new school is or how she'd get there!.


The new school is on the site of the existing Myers Grove school.

My daughter is starting Myers Grove in Sept. We live in Crookes and this was the school she was allocated (we moved to Crookes 1st March) It's 2 miles from our house to Myers and if this merger does go ahead as planned then I have no idea where this new school is or how she'd get there!.

From what I've read the merger is going to be a good thing, extra money means extra resourses which in turn benefits the kids that go there.

A school place isn't a definite anyway no matter what feeder school your child attends, it just may turn out to be more difficult to get your child into the school when it becomes more popular.

AS said Traffic problems and the school not being big enuff for its catchment area are just some of the problems. Council officers ADMIT this now!!
The FACTS that wisewood is now a top school just seems odd that it should close anyway!
Add to this the teachers that made wisewood a top school will be out of a job!! the list goes on and on

Not sure when the last time MYERS had a good ofstead report or when the failings of the school stopped ;) im sure someone could tell you

But WISEWOOD is full again , as is Bradfield and it seems these are the schools parents want to send there children to first

SO the question is why dont parents want to make MYERS there first option school for there children ?? (with everything it has now??)
?

SO the question is why dont parents want to make MYERS there first option school for there children ?? (with everything it has now??)
?

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the OP doesn't live anywhere near WW and it isn't in their catchment. Could also be perhaps that people are looking forward to the new school and want their children in there?

masonarmsfc - why are teachers at Wisewood school going to be out of a job?

I have yet to here of any teachers anywhere in Sheffield being made redundant, they will either be redeployed at the new school (the majority), redeployed at another school in the city or there will be some natural wastage (retirement, change of career, long term maternity etc..)

masonarmsfc - why are teachers at Wisewood school going to be out of a job?

I have yet to here of any teachers anywhere in Sheffield being made redundant, they will either be redeployed at the new school (the majority), redeployed at another school in the city or there will be some natural wastage (retirement, change of career, long term maternity etc..)

The teachers and staff at Wisewood have been told at the very beginning of the consultations that they would have to reapply for their job at the new school!!

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the OP doesn't live anywhere near WW and it isn't in their catchment. Could also be perhaps that people are looking forward to the new school and want their children in there?

Are you saying theres no other school near the op than myers ?
And also People are looking forward to a NEW SCHOOL and only want there children in a new school?

Are you saying theres no other school near the op than myers ?
And also People are looking forward to a NEW SCHOOL and only want there children in a new school?

1. no but crookes is hardly catchment for ww.

2. Erm yes

1. no but crookes is hardly catchment for ww.

2. Erm yes

Im not looking forward to the 'new school' and do not want to send my children to the 'new school'!!

1. no but crookes is hardly catchment for ww.

2. Erm yes

I never said crooks is in the catchment for ww did i?
The fact is Myers could have had a new school anyway and wisewood only needed a refurb

the next Forge Valley Community School Liaison Group will be on Tuesday 16th June, 6-8 pm, at Myers Grove School.

Please note that the main item for the meeting will be a 'site visit' to the proposed route to, and potential site of, a pedestrian bridge over the River Loxley. Please bring suitable footwear and clothing. You will see more details on the agenda. We will be accompanied by colleagues from Sheffield City Council's Traffic Management Team and Mott MacDonald, who are conducting the secondary Transport Assessment at Malin Bridge.

Please find attached the minutes of the previous meeting and agenda for the meeting on 16th June

If you have any questions or queries please do not hesitate to contact me

regards

Laurence Jones'


Just wonderd When was a consultation done for locals around the area???

Just wonderd When was a consultation done for locals around the area???

There has been 3 consultation meetings regarding the possible measures planned around Malin Bridge although alot of attendees wanted to talk about the actual merger.

These were widely publicised, in the local press, posters around the area and leaflet drops to houses in the area.

They were also mentioned on here!

The meetings were held at each of the schools and at St Polycarp's church.

There has been 3 consultation meetings regarding the possible measures planned around Malin Bridge although alot of attendees wanted to talk about the actual merger.

These were widely publicised, in the local press, posters around the area and leaflet drops to houses in the area.

They were also mentioned on here!

The meetings were held at each of the schools and at St Polycarp's church.

They werent highly publicised - I would have seen something if they were.

They werent highly publicised - I would have seen something if they were.

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=4831282&postcount=853

This is in addition to leaflets delivered to local residents, posters put up in public places and annoucements in local press.

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=4831282&postcount=853

This is in addition to leaflets delivered to local residents, posters put up in public places and annoucements in local press.

If you dont go on the internet then you arent going to see the above post are you?

Im a local resident and I didnt receive a leaflet, also didnt see any posters up or any announcements in local press.

All im saying is - quite a lot of people wont have known about the consultations.

Its still a discussion about the proposed route though isn't it - It isn't a done deal! Why don't you guys try and find some positives about the situation because I cant see the new school not going ahead now? People only are trying to address some of your fears about traffic and try and make it all workable - go to the meeting and look at the proposal.

The meeting next week is specifically for the footbridge option.

The 3 consultation meetings were about the proposed measures in and around Malin Bridge to deal with the additional pedestrian, cycle and vehicular numbers.

They werent highly publicised - I would have seen something if they were.

In view of the fact that I posted the notice below on the 26/3/09
and that you posted 2 posts lower on the same day.I cannot believe that
someone as involved as you are with the schools merger, did not know
about it.


Public Consultations re -
Traffic Isues for new school on Wood Lane.

Road shows at- Myers Grove School
Weds 1st April 3pm to 8pm

Thursday 2nd April 3pm to 8pm at the Business and
Enterprise Centre, Wisewood School

Saturday 4th April 1pm to 5pm at
St Polycarps Church

Contact The Sheffield BSF Team on 0114 2734688 for further information
Report Post Edit/Delete Message

In view of the fact that I posted the notice below on the 26/3/09
and that you posted 2 posts lower on the same day.I cannot believe that
someone as involved as you are with the schools merger, did not know
about it.


Public Consultations re -
Traffic Isues for new school on Wood Lane.

Road shows at- Myers Grove School
Weds 1st April 3pm to 8pm

Thursday 2nd April 3pm to 8pm at the Business and
Enterprise Centre, Wisewood School

Saturday 4th April 1pm to 5pm at
St Polycarps Church

Contact The Sheffield BSF Team on 0114 2734688 for further information
Report Post Edit/Delete Message


I didnt say that I did not know about it, I was saying that it was badly advertised.

I live in the area and didnt receive a leaflet, didnt see a poster and also didnt see it in the local press - so how many other people would not have known either?

The meeting next week is specifically for the footbridge option.

The 3 consultation meetings were about the proposed measures in and around Malin Bridge to deal with the additional pedestrian, cycle and vehicular numbers.


I was under the impression that the footbridge idea had been scrapped with so many people against it!!

I live in Wisewood, I've never had any leaflets either. I won't be able to make the meeting about the footpath, but I am interested in knowing where it's going to actually be. (where it begins and ends please)

I sometimes go in the Yewtree pub and to the locals who live around the malin bridge area They was still waiting on a consultation, They have had no leaflets or any posters im told .

Also the malin Bridge shops are still waiting on info/news about traffic etc They are not happy it seems at all!!!


I think if this is not sorted asap i think those that are JUST against more traffic/ bridge (not merger) you will see some kind of protest from them if your not carefull here!!!!
The shops and locals Need to be kept informed in my opinion

Get. Over. It.

I sometimes go in the Yewtree pub and to the locals who live around the malin bridge area They was still waiting on a consultation, They have had no leaflets or any posters im told .

Also the malin Bridge shops are still waiting on info/news about traffic etc They are not happy it seems at all!!!


I think if this is not sorted asap i think those that are JUST against more traffic/ bridge (not merger) you will see some kind of protest from them if your not carefull here!!!!
The shops and locals Need to be kept informed in my opinion

I live quite near Malin Bridge. We certainly received a notice of where
information about traffic could be found. ie St Polycarps Church being the
nearest to the Yew Tree.

I live quite near Malin Bridge. We certainly received a notice of where
information about traffic could be found. ie St Polycarps Church being the
nearest to the Yew Tree.

So you did but others did not are you saying?
My point is like i say i think the locals in the malin bridge area should be more informed of the increase in traffic/ and what will be happening with crossings etc and the local shops should be kept informed as well im sure they are a must to keep on side !!!

So you did but others did not are you saying?
My point is like i say i think the locals in the malin bridge area should be more informed of the increase in traffic/ and what will be happening with crossings etc and the local shops should be kept informed as well im sure they are a must to keep on side !!!

Well I do not think I was the only one to receive a leaflet as other people
were there. Were many there when you visited?
I do not think people need informing that if more cars are on the road at
the same time,that it would cause more congestion,it is common sense
If school buses were to be used this would be a help.
If school starting time was 30 mins later, ie after the rush hour, this
would even the traffic out. This would obviously mean a 30 minute later
finish, at about 3.30 which I am sure is before the rush hour, In spite
of the fact that you said on a previous post it was the rush hour.

That might well work, but then Shooters Grove would have to change too, for folk who have kids in both schools.

Well I do not think I was the only one to receive a leaflet as other people
were there. Were many there when you visited?
I do not think people need informing that if more cars are on the road at
the same time,that it would cause more congestion,it is common sense
If school buses were to be used this would be a help.
If school starting time was 30 mins later, ie after the rush hour, this
would even the traffic out. This would obviously mean a 30 minute later
finish, at about 3.30 which I am sure is before the rush hour, In spite
of the fact that you said on a previous post it was the rush hour.

Not sure about kids starting 30mins later , and finishing 30 mins later , you see you also then have work traffic for those that are finishing 3-30 pm onwards- have you seen how bad it is between them times!!

As for the busses for the kids good idea upto a point- BUT then you have bradfield busses going from myers area picking kids up to go to bradfield school, i was told theres around 8 or 9 busses in total for this
Cant remember what the cost was of the busses for the year i do know it was alot of money tho - and who would pay for the busses for wisewood kids?


The last traffic Impact report - was not very good i recall ,
A better option BUT the council would never do it about traffic is not to have the Tramgate in hillsborough - this would free malin bridge/holme lane area up alot more

Not sure about kids starting 30mins later , and finishing 30 mins later , you see you also then have work traffic for those that are finishing 3-30 pm onwards- have you seen how bad it is between them times!!

As for the busses for the kids good idea upto a point- BUT then you have bradfield busses going from myers area picking kids up to go to bradfield school, i was told theres around 8 or 9 busses in total for this
Cant remember what the cost was of the busses for the year i do know it was alot of money tho - and who would pay for the busses for wisewood kids?


The last traffic Impact report - was not very good i recall ,
A better option BUT the council would never do it about traffic is not to have the Tramgate in hillsborough - this would free malin bridge/holme lane area up alot more

Yes I go past Myers Grove School quite often between 3 30pm- 4pm
and it is not rush hour.

Yes I go past Myers Grove School quite often between 3 30pm- 4pm
and it is not rush hour.

Myers school maybe ok BUT malin bridge area is not - as the first traffic impact report stated - ill try put the result of it on here -of how big a increase it was .

Does anyone know the FULL COST of the footbridge if goes ahead ????

Does anyone know the FULL COST of the footbridge if goes ahead ????

I would assume the people to ask are the ones who will be at the footbrdge
discussion on the 16th June.

I would assume the people to ask are the ones who will be at the footbrdge
discussion on the 16th June.

Just thought the temp goveners of the new school (x-proposing group members) who are on here would know ?

Ill ask the lib dems , be good to know how much IF goes ahead how much its costing and if other schools in sheffield will get the same extra budget for there school?

Just thought the temp goveners of the new school (x-proposing group members) who are on here would know ?

Ill ask the lib dems , be good to know how much IF goes ahead how much its costing and if other schools in sheffield will get the same extra budget for there school?

As the Lib Dems have an underspend of over £19 millon, for the financial
year of 2008-2009. They should be able to build the bridge at no extra cost to
Council Tax payers. With plenty left for other worthy projects.

As the Lib Dems have an underspend of over £19 millon, for the financial
year of 2008-2009. They should be able to build the bridge at no extra cost to
Council Tax payers. With plenty left for other worthy projects.

Im sure ive read in the star ,that some sheffield schools will not now get maybe a refurb or rebuild due to cuts in the funding ,
(ill try find link to it in star)

The PFI initiative seems to have been renamed BSF (Building Schools for the Future), detail here

http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/education/services-to-schools/buildings/rebuild-refurb/bsf#phase1a

I think Phase 1a & 1b are underway, certainly for High Storrs & Silverdale, 2 schools I pass regularly, phase 2 covers 12 schools including Abbeydale Grange which might not exist in a years time.

Interesting to see what the Star article says, if you can find it.

The PFI initiative seems to have been renamed BSF (Building Schools for the Future), detail here

http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/education/services-to-schools/buildings/rebuild-refurb/bsf#phase1a

I think Phase 1a & 1b are underway, certainly for High Storrs & Silverdale, 2 schools I pass regularly, phase 2 covers 12 schools including Abbeydale Grange which might not exist in a years time.

Interesting to see what the Star article says, if you can find it.

not looked as yet - will have a check later on star website .

city school a new £27 million building and has received extra Government funding to boost its exam results has failed and has a notice to improve , see (city thread for link)

So it seems a brand new building does not always make a super school !!

But compare wisewood with the city school -wisewood has again just had a top ofstead report - THIS IS without a chuck as much money at it and hope Brand new building!!!

"harry harpham - said THERE WILL PROBLEMS in the first few years of the merger school in consultation"
Oh well its only the children that might suffer for a few years i thought when he said it:loopy:

News/info update added on socs website .
Ive been asked to say "a big thanks to those that are contacting the socs site and wishing us well in the fight to stop the merger" etc etc

just wanted to say thankyou to the person who is giving us advice to save Abbeydale Grange. I know our issues are different but we all want alocal school and none of us are happy with local media coverage.

ps.s Abbeydale Grange became a foundation 2 years ago and has never received the assets off the council plus publicity in the star about the 14 million pounds which states it is for all schools is wrong.If Abbeydale Grange closes the 14 million goes back to the government not to be shared out amonst schools round here. The 14 million pounds is only allocated for the named school and only to be used for buildings

ps.s Abbeydale Grange became a foundation 2 years ago and has never received the assets off the council plus publicity in the star about the 14 million pounds which states it is for all schools is wrong.If Abbeydale Grange closes the 14 million goes back to the government not to be shared out amonst schools round here. The 14 million pounds is only allocated for the named school and only to be used for buildings

Thanks good info there !

Just thought i would add something.

The story of the merger was about falling rolls when it was first started by Sheffield labour party, SOCS stated that labour had got there FIG/Pupil numbers wrong from the off- Labour said they had got them right !! The proposing group agreed with the labour party .

after socs kept stating facts Figs etc etc , it came out that COUNCIL OFFICERS HAD indeed got there numbers wrong all along !!!

So then why is the merger going ahead again ??? Why is it not been re-looked at by council or government ?

Why have the new temp governors of the new merger school not called a public meeting??

Parents have to ask these questions as well as socs members. Who in there right mind would want to close a top school (by all reports ) like wisewood and merge it?

The facts again seem to point that the New school will not be big enuff - im sure socs will be right on this one again as well
Theres still no Traffic solution sorted as yet not sure how long it should take , weeks, months, years from the first consultation untill now how long has it been ??

In my opinion theres something not right about this merger at all its all abit iffy (as my mom used to say lol)

Just thought i would add something.
So then why is the merger going ahead again ??? Why is it not been re-looked at by council or government ?

Why have the new temp governors of the new merger school not called a public meeting??

Parents have to ask these questions as well as socs members. Who in there right mind would want to close a top school (by all reports ) like wisewood and merge it?

The facts again seem to point that the New school will not be big enuff - im sure socs will be right on this one again as well
Theres still no Traffic solution sorted as yet not sure how long it should take , weeks, months, years from the first consultation untill now how long has it been ??

In my opinion theres something not right about this merger at all its all abit iffy (as my mom used to say lol)

Oh dear - same old tired argument that is totally irrelevant. I notice that NO ONE has dared to post the hugely successful OFSTED report recevied by Myers in the last few weeks! It has moved from being in measures to a school that is now satisfactory and only missed out on being good so I am informed by one measure!.

So, those still opposing the merger have just had all their arguments shot from underneath them

Why?

becasue Wisewood is OUTSTANDING

Myers is SATISFACTORY (Nearly good)

Wisewood Leadership is classified as outstanding and it is this leadership that has assisted Myers in moving to being in the position it is again.

Those that oppose cannot surely now oppose again on education grounds! The education that our kids will recevie at Forge Valley will at worst be satisfactory and at best outstanding - I know where my money would be!!. Coupled with the opportunity to receive this education in state of the art facilities that are totally modern I just wonder why those in oppopsition seek to deny our kids the best possible education in the best possible facilities in the area in the future? Does pride stop them admitting the argument is wrong?

Despite their opposition, I have yet to see a credicble proposal from SOCS or any others in iopposition to the new school as to how Wisewood could be "modernised" on the current site, without serious disruption to education - there is just not the room to do so, SO - tell us how you would do this???

Forge Valley is here to stay and will be an OUTSTANDING school - certianly one I would want any of my kids to go to, coupled with na 6th form on this side of the city - what could be better for our kids?

I am absolutely proud to be associated with Wisewood AND Myers and to be working towards a merged school that will encompass the best of both in state of the art facilities !!!! Who dare deny my kids that chance?

Oh dear - same old tired argument that is totally irrelevant. I notice that NO ONE has dared to post the hugely successful OFSTED report recevied by Myers in the last few weeks! It has moved from being in measures to a school that is now satisfactory and only missed out on being good so I am informed by one measure!.

So, those still opposing the merger have just had all their arguments shot from underneath them

Why?

becasue Wisewood is OUTSTANDING

Myers is SATISFACTORY (Nearly good)

Wisewood Leadership is classified as outstanding and it is this leadership that has assisted Myers in moving to being in the position it is again.

Those that oppose cannot surely now oppose again on education grounds! The education that our kids will recevie at Forge Valley will at worst be satisfactory and at best outstanding - I know where my money would be!!. Coupled with the opportunity to receive this education in state of the art facilities that are totally modern I just wonder why those in oppopsition seek to deny our kids the best possible education in the best possible facilities in the area in the future? Does pride stop them admitting the argument is wrong?

Despite their opposition, I have yet to see a credicble proposal from SOCS or any others in iopposition to the new school as to how Wisewood could be "modernised" on the current site, without serious disruption to education - there is just not the room to do so, SO - tell us how you would do this???

Forge Valley is here to stay and will be an OUTSTANDING school - certianly one I would want any of my kids to go to, coupled with na 6th form on this side of the city - what could be better for our kids?

I am absolutely proud to be associated with Wisewood AND Myers and to be working towards a merged school that will encompass the best of both in state of the art facilities !!!! Who dare deny my kids that chance?

I was thinking about doing just that when I read your post!
Myers is very much on the up at present.

I feel (and have done for a while) that those who oppose the new school are just stuck in a rut and scratching around for reasons to gripe, never mind whether they're valid or not.
Some folk are perpetual complainers and professional whingers - this thread seems to have found a few of them.

I support the views you express in this post. I reckon it's a great opportunity; I hope the whingers and serial complainers actually start to support the school before it opens.....

^^ And even if parents don't personally agree, how will it help their children to have a completely negative attitude towards their school? Surely it would be much better to accept that Forge Valley is on its way, and start supporting it and concentrating on the benefits it will bring. The culture of Wisewood need not be lost, the new school should be drawing on the best practices of both merged schools.

Oh dear - same old tired argument that is totally irrelevant. I notice that NO ONE has dared to post the hugely successful OFSTED report recevied by Myers in the last few weeks! It has moved from being in measures to a school that is now satisfactory and only missed out on being good so I am informed by one measure!.

So, those still opposing the merger have just had all their arguments shot from underneath them

Why?

becasue Wisewood is OUTSTANDING

Myers is SATISFACTORY (Nearly good)

Wisewood Leadership is classified as outstanding and it is this leadership that has assisted Myers in moving to being in the position it is again.

Those that oppose cannot surely now oppose again on education grounds! The education that our kids will recevie at Forge Valley will at worst be satisfactory and at best outstanding - I know where my money would be!!. Coupled with the opportunity to receive this education in state of the art facilities that are totally modern I just wonder why those in oppopsition seek to deny our kids the best possible education in the best possible facilities in the area in the future? Does pride stop them admitting the argument is wrong?

Despite their opposition, I have yet to see a credicble proposal from SOCS or any others in iopposition to the new school as to how Wisewood could be "modernised" on the current site, without serious disruption to education - there is just not the room to do so, SO - tell us how you would do this???

Forge Valley is here to stay and will be an OUTSTANDING school - certianly one I would want any of my kids to go to, coupled with na 6th form on this side of the city - what could be better for our kids?

I am absolutely proud to be associated with Wisewood AND Myers and to be working towards a merged school that will encompass the best of both in state of the art facilities !!!! Who dare deny my kids that chance?


Well done to myers for now becoming a SATISFACTORY school as you say .
The facts remain the MERGER was all about falling rolls !!!

But as said council officers have NOW got there figures wrong - on that point then the merger should be be re-thought dont you think?

SOCS have always stated that they WANTED a brand new school for myers with all of its other new things - and they could have a 6th form

SOCS and parents Only wanted a refurb for wisewood

MYERS -has had some sort of a 6th form by the way years ago BUT WHO Stopped the 6th form and why?? ( look it up and find out)


The labour party line of - "ITS going to be a top school blah blah is something we could all beleave " as we could beleave alot of things the sheffield labour have said all before but did not seem to come true

no answer to traffic as yet from any PARTY ?? Why is that ??

"modernised" on the current site, without serious disruption to education -HARRY you stated the above about wisewood - the same is said about Myers im sorry to say !!
Wheres the facts that The merger School is going to be OUTSTANDING???
Whos stating this ???

The point of the merger is really about just saving money for staff- teachers etc etc its not about education at all in my opinion and getting the same points from teachers ive had meetings with (off the record meetings i must add As there jobs are at risk remember!!)

The point of sheffield lib dems state They would stop the merger if it was not for the government "BLACKMAIL"

ill leave you with this thought tho - Whys bradfield school full - is it because ITS SATISFACTORY?? Or is it as all partys say one of the best schools in sheffield ?? Why is Wisewood Full ??
Whys myers not ?? -
My point is we could have 3 SCHOOLS OUTSTANDING on this side of the city
Bradfield -wisewood- Myers !!:)

I haven't taken much part in this discussion because I home educate my children and it hasn't felt relevant to us. Now my daughter is considering going to school to do her GCSEs, and we live in Wadsley so I am having to consider which would be the best school if she does do this.

The new school sounds absolutely appalling to be honest. For a start my daughter has ME and so would not possibly be able to walk that far every day, so we would have to build a car trip twice per day into our lives. Secondly all the research at the moment points towards big schools being a disaster for the students, in America they have even started to dismantle their big flagship schools, splitting them into 2 or 3 smaller schools on the same premises as it was considered to be so harmful to the children to be in such a large faceless environment, where there was no chance of the teachers knowing the individual pupils, so why on earth are they going ahead and shutting down two schools to merge them into one here in Sheffield? It is way behind the times. The current buzz words are all about small groups, individualised learning, pupil led curriculums etc (rather like home education actually ;)).

Does anyone have any opinions on what would be our best course for a school for our daughter in 2010 please (assuming we actually do send her rather than doing gcses from home)? She wants to do Japanese and psychology at GCSE as well as the normal subjects, does anyone know if the new school will be offering these?

When does this new school open?

I think the new school is due to open in 2011. I'm pretty sure that Myers do not do Japanese and don't think that Wisewood do it either. What about finding out whether King Edwards do Japanese as they are supposed to be a language specialist -although I do realise it would definitely mean a car journey for you.

Hi Lisa

Thanks :) I have already spoken to King Edwards some time ago about the possibility of her sitting her exam as an external student, and I think they said that they only did Japanese as a night time adult course, not as a daytime school course, but I am not sure, so I will check again.

If Abbeydale is going to be closed down why not send all their pupils to Myers and leave Wisewood open.

I haven't taken much part in this discussion because I home educate my children and it hasn't felt relevant to us. Now my daughter is considering going to school to do her GCSEs, and we live in Wadsley so I am having to consider which would be the best school if she does do this.

The new school sounds absolutely appalling to be honest. For a start my daughter has ME and so would not possibly be able to walk that far every day, so we would have to build a car trip twice per day into our lives. Secondly all the research at the moment points towards big schools being a disaster for the students, in America they have even started to dismantle their big flagship schools, splitting them into 2 or 3 smaller schools on the same premises as it was considered to be so harmful to the children to be in such a large faceless environment, where there was no chance of the teachers knowing the individual pupils, so why on earth are they going ahead and shutting down two schools to merge them into one here in Sheffield? It is way behind the times. The current buzz words are all about small groups, individualised learning, pupil led curriculums etc (rather like home education actually ;)).

Does anyone have any opinions on what would be our best course for a school for our daughter in 2010 please (assuming we actually do send her rather than doing gcses from home)? She wants to do Japanese and psychology at GCSE as well as the normal subjects, does anyone know if the new school will be offering these?

When does this new school open?

I have 2 sons who went to Myers Grove when the school had upwards
of 1600 pupils.
One got 9 GCSE' s + 3 A Levels He went to Durham University studied Chemistry got a first class Bsc degree. Then went on to gain a PHD. He is now an evironmental research scientist.
The other son got 7 GCSE's + 4 A Levels He went to Newcastle University
studied Geology gained a Bsc degree. He now holds a senior post in a Fuel
exploration Company.

All gained without the above Buzz words or American ideas.

I agree that smaller classes, one to one education etc, may be desirable,
but it is beyond the reach of the vast majority of people.

I think that if a school has capable teachers and the pupils are prepared to
work. Good results will be gained.

Myers Grove certainly worked for our family. I would hope that when the merger happens, that there will be a mix of the best teachers from both Wisewood and Myers, and the school will become one of the best once again.

I think that if a school has capable teachers and the pupils are prepared to
work. Good results will be gained.


I quite agree

Myers Grove certainly worked for our family. I would hope that when the merger happens, that there will be a mix of the best teachers from both Wisewood and Myers, and the school will become one of the best once again.

It's really good to see the swell in opinion that we need to make this new school work. As I've said, Wisewood is outstanding, Myers is satisfactory and only just missed out on being good. That bodes so well for the future.

As for fears about deterioration in standards, it does say a lot that for the second year running at Wisewood, the only staff to leave during the year (teaching staff) have been those wanting reduced hours of work or retiring for whatever reason. Not 1 member of staff has left Wisewood stating the merger and fear for jobs as a reason in the last year !!!

I do note that there has been NO answer to the challenge of how to refurb on the exisiting Wisewood site, wiothout immense disruption to pupils. There are no spare areas so it would mean porta cabins and the rest - not something I want for my kids on that Wisewood site in the short term.

Good to hear so many wanting now a state of the art school with state of the art facilities and state of the art good to outstanding teaching and leadership likely, IF, as is most reasonable, this comes from ther exisiting staffing groups at Wisewood and Myers. :)

OK I've dipped in and out of this thread over the months. As a parent with a child at Wisewood now (yr 10) and one due to go there in 2010 I have a vested interest.

One main point I'd like answering, and appologies if it's been covered - what's happening with catchment areas - or has that VERY delicate subject not been broached yet???

You've got kids on the Acorn estate at Stannington with a school a mile down the road, being bused 3 miles(?) to Bradfield, and kids on Langsett Ave a mile or so from Bradfield facing the prospect of a 2 mile journey to the Myers site....

Surely boundaries will be changed????

There are four teachers from Myers retiring this year and there will be more retiring when the school closes, so I dont think the staffing of the new school will be a problem. The staff have been told that jobs will only be open to existing staff at first, retraining will be available to fit the jobs i.e. post 16. then if there is no one suitable for a job it will only then be advertised externally. We have this in writing.

Please read the SOCS June 2009 newsletter at the following link:

http://www.saveourcommunityschools.btik.com/news/17821162449.ikml

There are four teachers from Myers retiring this year and there will be more retiring when the school closes, so I dont think the staffing of the new school will be a problem. The staff have been told that jobs will only be open to existing staff at first, retraining will be available to fit the jobs i.e. post 16. then if there is no one suitable for a job it will only then be advertised externally. We have this in writing.

Absolutely - I would imagine that TUPE rules have to apply and already we have evidence that where retirements are happening that opportunities are being given to teaching staff from the other school to work in partnership and fill the vacancy. I am aware of the existence of a retention policy across both schools which has certainly appeased both teaching staff and Unions - and which has been agreed by Trades Unions. From what I can see - very unlikley any teaching staff issues at all by Summer 2011 :) - Yet another contradiction to those that oppose.

As for catchment area - I am NOT aware of ANY proposal to change exisiting catchments for Forge Valley or Bradfied, however perverse they may seem at present :|. As I say, onwards and upwards to the successful development of the new school at Forge Valley.

OK I've dipped in and out of this thread over the months. As a parent with a child at Wisewood now (yr 10) and one due to go there in 2010 I have a vested interest.

One main point I'd like answering, and appologies if it's been covered - what's happening with catchment areas - or has that VERY delicate subject not been broached yet???

You've got kids on the Acorn estate at Stannington with a school a mile down the road, being bused 3 miles(?) to Bradfield, and kids on Langsett Ave a mile or so from Bradfield facing the prospect of a 2 mile journey to the Myers site....

Surely boundaries will be changed????

The catchment areas wont be changed - I dont think the Lib Dems have any plans to look at this - it has been brough up a number of times but nothing will be done about it!!

There are four teachers from Myers retiring this year and there will be more retiring when the school closes, so I dont think the staffing of the new school will be a problem. The staff have been told that jobs will only be open to existing staff at first, retraining will be available to fit the jobs i.e. post 16. then if there is no one suitable for a job it will only then be advertised externally. We have this in writing.

I heard something different from an ex teacher at Wisewood. They stated that all jobs would be publicly advertised as this is what has to happen with all new job vacancies.

If you have it in writing could you please provide a copy - either via a website or directly to me by email.

Thanks

If Abbeydale is going to be closed down why not send all their pupils to Myers and leave Wisewood open.

That thought had passed my mind.

Please read the SOCS June 2009 newsletter at the following link:

http://www.saveourcommunityschools.btik.com/news/17821162449.ikml

How sad to see the continued opposition from SOCS rather than working now with Governors of both exisiting school and the newly merged school to effect a mega new school. These people would still deny our kids a state of the art school with state of the art facilities with teaching and leadership that currently runs from Satisfactory and almost good at one school, to outstanding at the other.

The only opposition is now based NOT on eduactional needs of our kids, but a political agenda to oppose any new school on any grounds - traffic flow, numbers etc etc. What on earth do they think they are going to get if not a brand new school! How surely sad!!!! :huh:

I heard something different from an ex teacher at Wisewood. They stated that all jobs would be publicly advertised as this is what has to happen with all new job vacancies.

If you have it in writing could you please provide a copy - either via a website or directly to me by email.

Thanks

I suggest that you approach the school and or unions for a copy of the retention and retainment policy as your information is wholly inaccurate and just wrong. Obviously open advertising will apply to any newly created posts, but posts that are deemed as exising will apply to staff at both schools and there will be no open competitive advertising and recruitment. I am sure that were you to ask a member of Senior Leadership at either school they would be happy to explain to you Loopy as your response here is actually inaccurate as it stands.

If Abbeydale is going to be closed down why not send all their pupils to Myers and leave Wisewood open.

In what sort of facilities??? - already totally indequate for teaching purposes despite being an outstanding school and with no room on the exisiting site to move kids from 1 area to another whilst modernisation takes place - I really would love to see SOCS or someone who opposes the merger to come up with the definitive plan that truly demostrates how this can be done - the LEA certainly couldn't and neither can I with my knowledge of the site and school! - YET we remain OUTSTANDING despite our prehistoric facilities - how much more can our kids achieve in state of the art premises. Please show me how you could achieve this on the exisiting site when there is no room to move anyone around?????? :huh:

In what sort of facilities??? - already totally indequate for teaching purposes despite being an outstanding school and with no room on the exisiting site to move kids from 1 area to another whilst modernisation takes place - I really would love to see SOCS or someone who opposes the merger to come up with the definitive plan that truly demostrates how this can be done - the LEA certainly couldn't and neither can I with my knowledge of the site and school! - YET we remain OUTSTANDING despite our prehistoric facilities - how much more can our kids achieve in state of the art premises. Please show me how you could achieve this on the exisiting site when there is no room to move anyone around?????? :huh:

Keep Abbeydale open whilst the new Myers is being built,then bus em all in when it is finished.

The only opposition is now based NOT on eduactional needs of our kids, but a political agenda to oppose any new school on any grounds - traffic flow, numbers etc etc. What on earth do they think they are going to get if not a brand new school! How surely sad!!!! :huh:

You have your opinion on the merger but please dont blast parents and its wisewood community on there opinions if they are against the merger !!

Its very sad to see that the only way Myers could ever get a new school was to merge it with anouther one
Why indeed did governors of myers not want a new school or a 6th form years ago ? Why did they not ask the council or government years ago ?
They did not seem to botherd then :loopy:

Now AS SOCS stated all along The figs/numbers are wrong for the catchment area as now the council officers ADMIT !! Perhaps just perhaps thats about education i.e pupil numbers in the catchment :rolleyes:

Just a thought hear what size classes is the new school having ??

I and many others will always be against the merger im sorry if you dont like this but thats how it is and always will be .

I think if the offer was on the table hear and now NEW SCHOOL or bradfield
i would go for bradfield everytime

If you look at the figs for the area Bradfield school 1st option for parents, WISEWOOD 1st and 2nd
Myers Seems to be 3rd option for alot of parents not sure why im sure someone could answer?
(freedom info)

Keep Abbeydale open whilst the new Myers is being built,then bus em all in when it is finished.

Now thats a idea that would solve a problem :)
Im sure harry arwin must agree with that idea coz they still get a new school etc;)

If you look at the figs for the area Bradfield school 1st option for parents, WISEWOOD 1st and 2nd
Myers Seems to be 3rd option for alot of parents not sure why im sure someone could answer?
(freedom info)

Could it be to do with the fact that Bradfield and Wisewood are both very good schools and that Myers had acquired a less than brilliant reputation in recent years?

Myers is very much on the up again, though as I'm sure you know.

I find your refusal to even contemplate offering the new merged schools your support incredibly sad. It's pig headed and an insult to all the hard work going on in both schools from the staff and students.

Could it be to do with the fact that Bradfield and Wisewood are both very good schools and that Myers had acquired a less than brilliant reputation in recent years?

Myers is very much on the up again, though as I'm sure you know.

I find your refusal to even contemplate offering the new merged schools your support incredibly sad. It's pig headed and an insult to all the hard work going on in both schools from the staff and students.

And theres been alot of hard work to stop the merger as well i must add
From parents and students and teachers AS you well know !!
And this WILL CARRY ON AND ON from parents and students and teachers
I sorry you feel the way you do

In what sort of facilities??? - already totally indequate for teaching purposes despite being an outstanding school and with no room on the exisiting site to move kids from 1 area to another whilst modernisation takes place - I really would love to see SOCS or someone who opposes the merger to come up with the definitive plan that truly demostrates how this can be done - the LEA certainly couldn't and neither can I with my knowledge of the site and school! - YET we remain OUTSTANDING despite our prehistoric facilities - how much more can our kids achieve in state of the art premises. Please show me how you could achieve this on the exisiting site when there is no room to move anyone around?????? :huh:

If Myers is totally inadequate for teaching then why not send all the myers kids to Abbeydale where I believe there is plenty of places and room for them.This would then allow the new build to progress with no disruption to the kids education.As myers is now classed as 'outstanding' this would be of great benefit to the kids at Abbeydale.I have read that two or three schools have rejected accomadating pupils from Abbeydale,this is very sad .I think it would be a feather in the cap for Myers if they could agree to my idea.

The fact that they are closing down a very good school (Wisewood) with no apparent reason?

The fact that this new 'super school' will NOT have enough places for all the pupils in it's catchment area?


I have been at myers up until May and wisewood as far as i no is getting turned into a college. And the 'new' school will be alot bigger as it is being built on Myers grove playing fields which are quite big. I don't see any problem with it, i just wish they would have built it so i could have some of the benifits.

If Myers is totally inadequate for teaching then why not send all the myers kids to Abbeydale where I believe there is plenty of places and room for them.This would then allow the new build to progress with no disruption to the kids education.As myers is now classed as 'outstanding' this would be of great benefit to the kids at Abbeydale.I have read that two or three schools have rejected accomadating pupils from Abbeydale,this is very sad .I think it would be a feather in the cap for Myers if they could agree to my idea.

Sorry maxwell - but its wisewood that outstanding in offstead report not myers
Myers is nearly good i think harry stated !!

I have been at myers up until May and wisewood as far as i no is getting turned into a college. And the 'new' school will be alot bigger as it is being built on Myers grove playing fields which are quite big. I don't see any problem with it, i just wish they would have built it so i could have some of the benifits.

Not sure where the your information has come from but its very wrong .
Wisewood - is not getting turned into any college,

And myers (new school) can only be built where it is now -
None of the fields can be built on (Planning laws or something)

The catchment areas wont be changed - I dont think the Lib Dems have any plans to look at this - it has been brough up a number of times but nothing will be done about it!!

Pathetic. :loopy:

And myers (new school) can only be built where it is now -
None of the fields can be built on (Planning laws or something)

Thought the new school was going where the college is?

have they started building the new school yet. Or are you lot crying and standing in the way of progress.

The building is scheduled to start in January. The plans are being finalised at the moment.

have they started building the new school yet. Or are you lot crying and standing in the way of progress.

Of course Masons and SOCS are standing in the way of progress. Well spotted! Don't know how many times I have to ask Masons and SOCS to demonstrate on here how they would refurbish/rebuild the antiquated and outdated Wisewood site - without disrupting kids education!

They would still advocate the outstanding teaching and outstanding Leadership BUT in antiquated facilities - where with the new build we get the best of everything.

The argument against is at best perverse, and at worst pernicious. :huh: :gag:

my eldest is going into yr 10 at WW, links are already being made - the way I see it currently working is as a split site school.

He has been to Myers for lessons and is doing course work with Myers kids. Likewise staff are switching between sites to teach.

My youngest starts at Myers in Sept and will benefit from this and will welcome his school mates when they integrate in a couple of years.

The building is scheduled to start in January. The plans are being finalised at the moment.

Planning has still to be passed as yet on traffic etc etc, this will be a big big problem im told .
Also a consultation to shops, locals has to be done BY law !!

Of course Masons and SOCS are standing in the way of progress. Well spotted! Don't know how many times I have to ask Masons and SOCS to demonstrate on here how they would refurbish/rebuild the antiquated and outdated Wisewood site - without disrupting kids education!

They would still advocate the outstanding teaching and outstanding Leadership BUT in antiquated facilities - where with the new build we get the best of everything.

The argument against is at best perverse, and at worst pernicious. :huh: :gag:

Are you 100% sure the new school will not be disrupting kids education at myers ????

At consultations they said there would be disrupting points in the new school:rolleyes:

Sorry to say harry but facts have been stated a number of times by socs and parents from DAY 1 and YES we was right all along about the falling rolls figs numbers where wrong from the off !!!

Facts was stated about traffic etc and this is also coming true as well.
The argument is there for all to see .
The only argument you can point to is "where with the new build we get the best of everything.":
But you fail to see wisewood is getting the best EDUCATION now !!

my eldest is going into yr 10 at WW, links are already being made - the way I see it currently working is as a split site school.

He has been to Myers for lessons and is doing course work with Myers kids. Likewise staff are switching between sites to teach.

My youngest starts at Myers in Sept and will benefit from this and will welcome his school mates when they integrate in a couple of years.

SPLIT site school!!! - now this is really odd as those who did not want a fedarated school said because Teachers and children would have to be switching from sites to teach!!;)
So it does work then !! WOW anouther case of socs got it right again ;)

So lets have a little look again

The Falling rolls number that labour council officers came up with !
SOCS stated these was wrong - officers said they was right so did Proposing group!
RESULT -Council officers now state the falling roll number is wrong !!!!!:loopy:

No real traffic problems - Labour stated, and proposing group stated at one point.

RESULT - yes there IS a traffic problem , (and theres a big problem with the bridge it seems as well , according to the temp governors )

SOCS GROUP - shoot and score :hihi::hihi::hihi:
What do i know im just a parent

Of course Masons and SOCS are standing in the way of progress. Well spotted! Don't know how many times I have to ask Masons and SOCS to demonstrate on here how they would refurbish/rebuild the antiquated and outdated Wisewood site - without disrupting kids education!

They would still advocate the outstanding teaching and outstanding Leadership BUT in antiquated facilities - where with the new build we get the best of everything.

The argument against is at best perverse, and at worst pernicious. :huh: :gag:

There is nothing to say that the teaching at the new school will be outstanding - infact - if you attended all the consultation meetings it was mentioned that the standard of teaching will suffer due to relocation after the 'new school' opens - it will take a few years to get the standard up to outstanding!!!

So childrens education will suffer - especially those from Wisewood who are already used to an outstanding school.

If Myers is totally inadequate for teaching then why not send all the myers kids to Abbeydale where I believe there is plenty of places and room for them.This would then allow the new build to progress with no disruption to the kids education.As myers is now classed as 'outstanding' this would be of great benefit to the kids at Abbeydale.I have read that two or three schools have rejected accomadating pupils from Abbeydale,this is very sad .I think it would be a feather in the cap for Myers if they could agree to my idea.

I know this has been addressed but as a current staff member at Wisewood School I would like to reiterate that it was Wisewood School that was named "outstanding" for the overall effectiveness of the school by OFSTED - not Myers. Myers were given "notice to improve" in April last year and have since done that and are now defined as "satisfactory".

That makes Wisewood one of only 5 "outstanding" schools in Sheffield (along with Silverdale, Notre Dame, Tapton and Fir Vale). The only dissapointing thing is that this success has been largely unpublicised so not to fuel uproar for those not supporting the merger.

I know this has been addressed but as a current staff member at Wisewood School I would like to reiterate that it was Wisewood School that was named "outstanding" for the overall effectiveness of the school by OFSTED - not Myers. Myers were given "notice to improve" in April last year and have since done that and are now defined as "satisfactory".

That makes Wisewood one of only 5 "outstanding" schools in Sheffield (along with Silverdale, Notre Dame, Tapton and Fir Vale). The only dissapointing thing is that this success has been largely unpublicised so not to fuel uproar for those not supporting the merger.

Thanks for that " xxxxx":)

SOCS do get info from staff and teachers of wisewood and SOME have made it clear to us how they feel, but they also state that they cant speak out for fear of losing there jobs down the line , and i understand that also.

Things like the above will not be publicised im sorry to say for the reasons you have said and so it seems the sham merger goes on !!

SPLIT site school!!! - now this is really odd as those who did not want a fedarated school said because Teachers and children would have to be switching from sites to teach!!;)
So it does work then !! WOW anouther case of socs got it right again ;)

This I understand is in preparation for the new school, to 'forge' links and connect curriculum. The students seemed to enjoy working together, the particular group I refer to are doing a new diploma course and are meeting off site too for field work.

This I understand is in preparation for the new school, to 'forge' links and connect curriculum. The students seemed to enjoy working together, the particular group I refer to are doing a new diploma course and are meeting off site too for field work.

Like i said it does work then - theres no problem it seems with teachers working at both sites .

Thanks for that " xxxxx":)

SOCS do get info from staff and teachers of wisewood and SOME have made it clear to us how they feel, but they also state that they cant speak out for fear of losing there jobs down the line , and i understand that also.

Things like the above will not be publicised im sorry to say for the reasons you have said and so it seems the sham merger goes on !!

Sorry but again comment taken out of ciontext. Every member of staff has whatever right they want to state their feelings over this merger. Look at the facts - this year - Not 1 member of staff leaving this summer 'cos of fear for jobs!! I speak to staff regularly and without senior leaders being persent and have yet to hear 1 concern over job security or fear that staff who are opposed would be pernalised - not a bit of it at Wisewood - so stop your scaremongering Masons - re read the post - that is NOT what xxxx was saying. The issue of jobs has been pretty much resolved as well you know from my previous posting given the publication of the staff retention plan. I take it your reposnse means that you still haven't asked for it or read it otherwise you would see that safeguards are in palce for staff - AND AS agrewed by their UNIONS!!

And again - You and SOCS tell me how you are going to re-build and re-furbish Wisewood on the exisiting site - you seem to totally avoid that question that I must have posted 3 times to you and SCOS now in the last week or two - perhaps it is because you haven't got an answer? So, no answer so I can only assume that you would wish for our kids to continue in these crumbling and decaying classrooms whilst accessing outstanding teaching, but deny them the opportunity to gain that quality of teaching in outstanding modern premises. Its easy to balme politicians (local and national), governors or any body, and easy to oppose anything - just like this current national Government do - but please, please - tell us SOCS how you would do it on the current Wisewood site - you can't tell us, 'cos it can't be done and well you know it!

And again - You and SOCS tell me how you are going to re-build and re-furbish Wisewood on the exisiting site - you seem to totally avoid that question that I must have posted 3 times to you and SCOS now in the last week or two - perhaps it is because you haven't got an answer? So, no answer so I can only assume that you would wish for our kids to continue in these crumbling and decaying classrooms whilst accessing outstanding teaching, but deny them the opportunity to gain that quality of teaching in outstanding modern premises. Its easy to balme politicians (local and national), governors or any body, and easy to oppose anything - just like this current national Government do - but please, please - tell us SOCS how you would do it on the current Wisewood site - you can't tell us, 'cos it can't be done and well you know it!

HARRY im not a builder!!! Can you tell me plan by plan how the new school is going to be built on the same site place as the myers building is now!! i expect you cant - so dont be silly . Theres planning laws that state the new school has to be on the same site !!

But ill try answer tho i must admit im not a expert.
Now it was said a long time ago on wisewood site that it could not have a gym built on site - but it did happen and as did a brand new library
not sure how they build them in the small space - like you say !!!

Looking at a wider range tho some small schools ALL over england have had refurbs with no problem - so it can be done

A teacher did send socs a link about "bigger schools being no good etc etc " ill try find it and let you have a read - its very very interesting .

As for teachers and there jobs etc i can only go on what they are telling us (socs) and the things they pass onto us .

You dont seem to thank socs for the falling rolls figs that we stated from the off that was wrong - not sure why ??

OR about the traffic problems that socs stated from the off

Can you solve those problems ?????? because the council cant, and those that want the merger cant CAN YOU harry??

I know this has been addressed but as a current staff member at Wisewood School I would like to reiterate that it was Wisewood School that was named "outstanding" for the overall effectiveness of the school by OFSTED - not Myers. Myers were given "notice to improve" in April last year and have since done that and are now defined as "satisfactory".

That makes Wisewood one of only 5 "outstanding" schools in Sheffield (along with Silverdale, Notre Dame, Tapton and Fir Vale). The only dissapointing thing is that this success has been largely unpublicised so not to fuel uproar for those not supporting the merger.


It is strange how it is being 'ignored' by many that Wisewood is in fact 'outstanding'.

This will not continue after the merger - this has been stated in many consultation meetings.

And again - You and SOCS tell me how you are going to re-build and re-furbish Wisewood on the exisiting site - you seem to totally avoid that question that I must have posted 3 times to you and SCOS now in the last week or two - perhaps it is because you haven't got an answer? So, no answer so I can only assume that you would wish for our kids to continue in these crumbling and decaying classrooms whilst accessing outstanding teaching, but deny them the opportunity to gain that quality of teaching in outstanding modern premises. Its easy to balme politicians (local and national), governors or any body, and easy to oppose anything - just like this current national Government do - but please, please - tell us SOCS how you would do it on the current Wisewood site - you can't tell us, 'cos it can't be done and well you know it!


If it can be done at Myers it can be done at Wisewood - are you not aware that the new building at Myers is to be built on EXISTING footprint of Myers??

How are they going to manage that? They cannot possibly knock half of the school down and build half of it first??

Mobile buildings comes to mind!!

Well Masons and loopylulu I can tell you how the new school is being built on almost existing footprint. The Science and food block will be demolished along with computer rooms. Some of the classes from the demolished buildings will be housed in other areas of the main buliding and there will be some high quality purpose built temp classrooms for science and food tech. The new building will be built on the old science block/ car park/tennis courts area. Then when the main building is finished a new car park and tennis courts will be put on the site of the main block. You will have to wait until August to see the plans.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1550013/Super-school-pupils-will-be-disaffected.html

Above is link socs got from a wisewood teacher - have a good read about these so called big schools etc

Well Masons and loopylulu I can tell you how the new school is being built on almost existing footprint. The Science and food block will be demolished along with computer rooms. Some of the classes from the demolished buildings will be housed in other areas of the main buliding and there will be some high quality purpose built temp classrooms for science and food tech. The new building will be built on the old science block/ car park/tennis courts area. Then when the main building is finished a new car park and tennis courts will be put on the site of the main block. You will have to wait until August to see the plans.

WOW - im abit lost with the above it seems a big change from what was stated in consultations !!

As for temp classrooms - you really mean MOBILES ;)
Its looking worse and worse this merger lark

Can you pass a link onto me as to where you got this information from please Dunney ?????

No I can't im afraid.

At the end of the day the area will get a fantastic new shiny school and ALL kids will benefit from the facilities.

WHAT exactly is the problem?

At the end of the day the area will get a fantastic new shiny school and ALL kids will benefit from the facilities.

WHAT exactly is the problem?

The closure of one of the top 5 schools in Sheffield - Wisewood!!!

The closure of one of the top 5 schools in Sheffield - Wisewood!!!

To be replaced by a superior school for all the kids in the area.

To be replaced by a superior school for all the kids in the area.

Some folk are just smallminded miserables buggers; believe it or not, some of these whinging gits have said they won't support the new school even when it's open - how pathetic is that?

Some folk are just smallminded miserables buggers; believe it or not, some of these whinging gits have said they won't support the new school even when it's open - how pathetic is that?

You're right, they are pathetic.

Good luck to the new school and to the staff and kids.

Some folk are just smallminded miserables buggers; believe it or not, some of these whinging gits have said they won't support the new school even when it's open - how pathetic is that?

Absolultey agree. The really pathetic thing is that these whingers are now jumping on the bandwagon of Wisewoods "outstanding" status!! - and then claim it can't.won't be continued. How sad. As somoen closely connected to the school I just know that to be absolutley false and untrue. They scaremonger and scaremonger time after time!

Now they claim Wiserwood should stay open in its antiquated facilities as it is one of the only 5 outstanding secondaries in Sheffield - doesn't seem too long ago on this thread they were berating the senior leaders and governors who have put the time and commitment in to get us to this point!

Still if you look at the thread over the last few weeks, SOCS can only put 2 poeple up now in oppoasition to the merger. It is very clear that the considered opinion on this thread is to go with the merger - new facilities, new school, and still be at least good to outstanding - why some who post think the merger will straight away drop status is again, little more than scaremongering, but these are people who already have said their kids won't go to the school, but would stop us having it for our kids!!!!!:huh::loopy:

Cant believe this argument is still raging.

Looking at a wider range tho some small schools ALL over england have had refurbs with no problem - so it can be done

A teacher did send socs a link about "bigger schools being no good etc etc " ill try find it and let you have a read - its very very interesting .

As for teachers and there jobs etc i can only go on what they are telling us (socs) and the things they pass onto us .

You dont seem to thank socs for the falling rolls figs that we stated from the off that was wrong - not sure why ??

OR about the traffic problems that socs stated from the off

Can you solve those problems ?????? because the council cant, and those that want the merger cant CAN YOU harry??

Harry when can you answer the question ?

Absolultey agree. The really pathetic thing is that these whingers are now jumping on the bandwagon of Wisewoods "outstanding" status!! - and then claim it can't.won't be continued. How sad. As somoen closely connected to the school I just know that to be absolutley false and untrue. They scaremonger and scaremonger time after time!

Now they claim Wiserwood should stay open in its antiquated facilities as it is one of the only 5 outstanding secondaries in Sheffield - doesn't seem too long ago on this thread they were berating the senior leaders and governors who have put the time and commitment in to get us to this point!

Still if you look at the thread over the last few weeks, SOCS can only put 2 poeple up now in oppoasition to the merger. It is very clear that the considered opinion on this thread is to go with the merger - new facilities, new school, and still be at least good to outstanding - why some who post think the merger will straight away drop status is again, little more than scaremongering, but these are people who already have said their kids won't go to the school, but would stop us having it for our kids!!!!!:huh::loopy:

Harry - same think you do repeat yourself alot .
SOCS put the facts and you dont seem to give credit to whats been stated all along -and has come true by SOCS :)

you just repeat the same stuff - scaremongering etc etc

SOCS and parents are fighting to stop this merger and will carry on to do so
thats all you need to know i think as you cant seem to see the facts

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1550013/Super-school-pupils-will-be-disaffected.html

Above is link socs got from a wisewood teacher - have a good read about these so called big schools etc

Ill ask again for you to have a look at the link you may even learn something from it ;)

I've read it Masons it isn't really the same is it:

"However, there are dangers in creating bigger schools. You may have 11- and 12-year-olds coming from small village primaries of no more than 60 going into secondaries with well over 1,000 kids. The danger is that children slip through the net." - not quite the same scenario as our schools.

One of the new schools, Hameldon, was formed in September from the closure of two schools with a total of 2,123 pupils. The school failed its first Ofsted report earlier this year. A spokesman for the council said the new school buildings would eventually each have about 1,050 pupils as rolls fall.
no plans for over 2000 kids at Forge Valley, more Likely closer to the predicted number in the Hameldon school when it settles.

thank-god wisewood school is closing, cant wait! bunch of thugs they are.

However, there are fears that the trend towards larger schools will create anonymous, super-sized secondaries, to the detriment of pupils' education.

"With bigger schools it can be a challenge to ensure you create that sense of belonging and an environment that makes pupils feel safe and secure. In larger schools it is easier for students to feel lost and anonymous.

FOX you seem to have missed the above bit out as well;)

Some on this thread KEEP stating socs are trying to stop myers have a brand new school !!

THIS has never been the case at all - socs stated THEY WANTED a new school for myers and a refurb for wisewood !
SOCS have so far got alot of things they stated clearly right :):)
And still those that want the merger dont seem to agree that we have got those matters right . even when its in black and white

To be replaced by a superior school for all the kids in the area.

A superior building doesnt make a superior school!!!

Have you heard about the troubles that these newly built schools suffer??

Absolultey agree. The really pathetic thing is that these whingers are now jumping on the bandwagon of Wisewoods "outstanding" status!! - and then claim it can't.won't be continued. How sad. As somoen closely connected to the school I just know that to be absolutley false and untrue. They scaremonger and scaremonger time after time!



I take it you didnt attend the consultation meetings then?? It was stated then that the outstanding status of wisewood would not continue!!!

Still if you look at the thread over the last few weeks, SOCS can only put 2 poeple up now in oppoasition to the merger. It is very clear that the considered opinion on this thread is to go with the merger - new facilities, new school, and still be at least good to outstanding - why some who post think the merger will straight away drop status is again, little more than scaremongering, but these are people who already have said their kids won't go to the school, but would stop us having it for our kids!!!!!:huh::loopy:

Not everybody has time to come on Sheffield Forum - and some simply refuse as they have seen this thread and some of the comments from the supporters from the merger and think they are being selfish and childish.

I will repeat SOCS want brand new schools for both Myers and Wisewood - They have never been selfish and just wanted something for themselves - unlike others on here!!! We understand that people at the Myers side want a new school and we are not here to stop that - we are here to stop Wisewood losing a school - but you over there dont care do you???

I'd be happy for myers and wisewood both to get new schools and stay open. If anyone can show me how its possible to rebuild wisewood the way the myers site is being rebuilt i'd appreciate it. As far as i'm aware, its not possible to do it without causing major harm to the present pupils education due to the size of the site. And when you've explained that bit then can you show where the money will come from, cos the libdems seemed to think it was possible but it was never shown how. Scriven said he'd cut red tape and 10 million quid or so would be found. Guess he's still hunting for his scissors.

Had a letter today, all the future Y7's of WW and Myers are getting an activity day next week, (mon or tue depending on forms). The morning will be spent TOGETHER at Myers and the afternoon TOGETHER at WW, to give the Y7 children the chance to get to know eachother before next term.

Sounds very positive to me, a meeting of two schools looking towards the future when they are learning in the same building full time, but in the interim they will still be learning together. Great move by the head/s IMO

thank-god wisewood school is closing, cant wait! bunch of thugs they are.

You seem to be out to cause an argument bigheffa21!! (see new to hillsborough posts).

You have no connection at all with this thread, what's your problem??

Just for the record, I am still opposed to the merger & know a quite a few people in the wisewood catchment area with kids.
The ones who are applying now for secondary in 2010 have all applied for Bradfield (they would have stayed with Wisewood if the merger was not going ahead)

I have no problem with the school merger and I am sure that the new school will be very good for those that can go to it. However, no-one has as yet addressed the issue that the new school will not have enough places for all the children in the current Wisewood/Myers Grove catchment area. As I live on the edge of this area it is likely that my child will not get into the new school and since the other secondaries in the area are over subscribed I am not sure which school they will end up in.

To be replaced by a superior school for all the kids in the area.

So you can guarantee that in 5 years the new school will be classed 'outstanding' by ofsted then?

If not how can you claim the new school will be superior to what Wisewood is now?

Just for the record, I am still opposed to the merger & know a quite a few people in the wisewood catchment area with kids.
The ones who are applying now for secondary in 2010 have all applied for Bradfield (they would have stayed with Wisewood if the merger was not going ahead)

I'm unhappy with the merger for a couple of reasons, but we are putting my daughter in for Wisewood when she goes up in 2010 instead of Bradfield which is an option.

It a toughie, deciding where to send her, but the fact most of her classmates will be going there swung it.

I'm unhappy with the merger for a couple of reasons, but we are putting my daughter in for Wisewood when she goes up in 2010 instead of Bradfield which is an option.

It a toughie, deciding where to send her, but the fact most of her classmates will be going there swung it.

I know other parents who were in the same predicament and have ended up sending their children to Wisewood because their friends are going.

Funny though isnt it how Wisewood is still remaining full when the Labour council back then said the numbers would fall??

You seem to be out to cause an argument bigheffa21!! (see new to hillsborough posts).

You have no connection at all with this thread, what's your problem??

Just for the record, I am still opposed to the merger & know a quite a few people in the wisewood catchment area with kids.
The ones who are applying now for secondary in 2010 have all applied for Bradfield (they would have stayed with Wisewood if the merger was not going ahead)

cause I used to live nr wisewood school, and was sick of having the kids walk down the rd, pushing each other into the bushes, breaking them, throwing stones at windows throwing rubbish in the gardens and shouting and screeaming, so yes I do know! and a relative of mine was violently assaoulted in the school, ask <name removed> if you do not believe!!!! I know of many people that went there and their career prospects are less then appealing!!!!!

cause I used to live nr wisewood school, and was sick of having the kids walk down the rd, pushing each other into the bushes, breaking them, throwing stones at windows throwing rubbish in the gardens and shouting and screeaming, so yes I do know! and a relative of mine was violently assaoulted in the school, ask <name removed> if you do not believe!!!! I know of many people that went there and their career prospects are less then appealing!!!!!

:roll::roll::roll: I think you'll find that kids messing around after school happens at most schools it's not just wisewood!!
Fights happen at most schools too, you can't blame a small minority on the school itself

I take it you didnt attend the consultation meetings then?? It was stated then that the outstanding status of wisewood would not continue!!!

Please get your facts right before scaremongering again Loopy. It is a FACT that during consultation meetings (and I was at most) that Wisewood was not then "Outstanding" - It has only achieved that status in the last couple of months. How could it threfore be claimed that outstanding staus would not continue when it wasn't even at that level then? And - as I say, as someone very closely engaged with Wisewood I know this to be fact. This was NOT said at any consultation meeting I went to and I went to most!

What still disturbs me greatly are those who have made their position clear in stating on this Forum that they will NOT be sending their kids to the new school - that's fine and clelary their right to do so, but then come on bleating about it and would deny those of us who would that choice - That begins to sound quite socially dangerous and unacceptable to me.

I will repeat SOCS want brand new schools for both Myers and Wisewood - They have never been selfish and just wanted something for themselves - unlike others on here!!! We understand that people at the Myers side want a new school and we are not here to stop that - we are here to stop Wisewood losing a school - but you over there dont care do you???

I see this is posted in response to one of mine. Who am I "over there"? Your posting seems to infer that I'm now a Myers parent? I have been very clear from day 1 of this thread that I am a parent of 3 kids who have/do attend Wisewood and that I am actively engaged with Wisewood school. I am clelary not "over there" - neither do I have any role with Myers or the new Forge Valley other than being a commited supporter of demanding and wanting the best for my kids - something that others on the thread would deny, depsite the fact that their kids won't be going - they want to deprive mine of that opportunity snd I'll fight tooth and nail to make sure they get that chance in a modernised new school at Forge Valley, desp[ite the tenuous arguements of those in opposition to the merger.

I still await SOCS response as to how to build a new school/refurbish the exisiting one on the existing Wisewood site - a challenge that SOCS are deaf to respond to time after time after time!

:roll::roll::roll: I think you'll find that kids messing around after school happens at most schools it's not just wisewood!!
Fights happen at most schools too, you can't blame a small minority on the school itself

suppose not, just dont want to live that close to one!

I (as of September) have a vested interest in it all as I have one son at Myers and one son at Wisewood. I was extremely pleased to hear that the children will be working closely together from now on, (activity day on Monday for incoming year 7's - both WW and Myers) this is done in anticipation of them coming together under the Forge Valley banner when they enter year 9.

I think it's time parents stopped doing the them and us scenario and bad mouthing either school as these children need to get on and appreciate each other, how can they do that when their parents are so vitriolic in their hatred of something which clearly is going to happen and definitely going to affect the children.

Can we not be positive?

So you can guarantee that in 5 years the new school will be classed 'outstanding' by ofsted then?

If not how can you claim the new school will be superior to what Wisewood is now?



Could you guarantee that Wisewood will be outstanding in 5 years? Thought not. Wisewood hasn't always been outstanding has it?

Parents need to stop being so bloody negative and support the new school and encourage your kids.

Some seem to be sending their kids to Bradfield out of some sort of protest and saying 'look at us, we aren't letting our children go to Forge Valley'.

Better school - better facilities - better opportunities for ALL kids in the area.

Get over it and get a grip.

Please get your facts right before scaremongering again Loopy. It is a FACT that during consultation meetings (and I was at most) that Wisewood was not then "Outstanding" - It has only achieved that status in the last couple of months. How could it threfore be claimed that outstanding staus would not continue when it wasn't even at that level then? And - as I say, as someone very closely engaged with Wisewood I know this to be fact. This was NOT said at any consultation meeting I went to and I went to most!


You know thats a load of bull!!!

You are starting to bore me now with the repetitive language - is that all you can say 'scaremongering' - have you just learnt that word??

What still disturbs me greatly are those who have made their position clear in stating on this Forum that they will NOT be sending their kids to the new school - that's fine and clelary their right to do so, but then come on bleating about it and would deny those of us who would that choice - That begins to sound quite socially dangerous and unacceptable to me.

Havent those people also been denied the choice of school which they prefer - If the 'Myers side' in all this would have joined in with SOCS then both Myers and Wisewood could have had new schools!!!

I still await SOCS response as to how to build a new school/refurbish the exisiting one on the existing Wisewood site - a challenge that SOCS are deaf to respond to time after time after time!

You got a reply!!!

But I would like to add that we dont have architects and help from the government to draw up our plans so it is a little hard for us on this side!!!

I think it's time parents stopped doing the them and us scenario and bad mouthing either school as these children need to get on and appreciate each other, how can they do that when their parents are so vitriolic in their hatred of something which clearly is going to happen and definitely going to affect the children.

Can we not be positive?

In response to the first paragraph - There has always been rivalry between Myers and Wisewood and always will be - there is still bad feeling amongst them when Wisewood pupils visit Myers.

In response to the last sentence - No!!

In response to the last sentence - No!!

Well done you - absolutey pathetic.

Better school - better facilities - better opportunities for ALL kids in the area.

Get over it and get a grip.


Sorry but you are wrong there - the council have admitted that there wont be enough places for ALL kids in the area!!

You cannot say if it will be a better school!!!

Both schools could have better facilities - Myers rebuild and Wisewood refurb!!!

Then there would be better opportunites for ALL kids in the area.

Well done you - absolutey pathetic.

Why am I 'absolutely pathetic' for not wanting to be positive about something I am against??

Are you telling me that you are positive about things you are against??

In response to the first paragraph - There has always been rivalry between Myers and Wisewood and always will be - there is still bad feeling amongst them when Wisewood pupils visit Myers.

In response to the last sentence - No!!

perhaps it's time the adults led by example and the rivalry was stopped its just so unnecessary and damaging to the children.

Loopy, the school is being built, the children will be coming together for year 9 so perhaps you tried to be positive for them? Personal opinions aside it's not their fault.

In response to the first paragraph - There has always been rivalry between Myers and Wisewood and always will be - there is still bad feeling amongst them when Wisewood pupils visit Myers.

In response to the last sentence - No!!

There is always rivalry between local schools wherever they are.
Surely if they are combined it will be a good oportunity for a closer bond
to exist between pupils from both schools.


As a matter of fact my kids who went to Myers Grove, had mates from
Wisewood, and are still in touch although they no longer live locally.

Could you guarantee that Wisewood will be outstanding in 5 years? Thought not. Wisewood hasn't always been outstanding has it?

Parents need to stop being so bloody negative and support the new school and encourage your kids.

Some seem to be sending their kids to Bradfield out of some sort of protest and saying 'look at us, we aren't letting our children go to Forge Valley'.

Better school - better facilities - better opportunities for ALL kids in the area.

Get over it and get a grip.

I won't appologise for wanting what's best for my children - and having one just about to start y11 at WW and doing very well at a very good school, why would I want anything different for my 10 yr old who will go to WW next year?

I haven't been 'bloody negative' at all, I've merely watched the bickering with interest whilst having a few doubts in my mind about various issues linked with the closure.

Better school - better facilities you say. The latter is probably true and can't be argued, but the former? Again it's been casually stated the new school will be a 'better school'. How can you say that? And no, I can't guarantee WW will still be an outstanding school in 5 years time, but given the choice right now knowing what I know I'd rather take that chance and leave my daughter there.