A report on the BBC today suggests that the general election could be delayed due to a legal challenge over postal voting, a system described by a judge as 'wide open to fraud'.

Have you used a postal vote? Do we need them or do they simply undermine the whole basis of free and fair elections?

Would be interested to hear your views.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4467443.stm

Found out yesterday that I will be working out of town on election day and so I'm hastily trying to arrange postal voting.

women died so that I could vote, so I take this power and privilege very seriously.

I filled in the postal vote request form and posted this yesterday, which should just about give time to receive the form back, fill it in and return it in time for 5th May deadline.... just.....

But I'm worried about the security of voting in this way, there has been a court case recently where the judge expressed serious concerns...

what do other people think about this ??

(please don;t turn this into a knock each others parties/beliefs thread!)

When I got a postal voting pack, it looked like every voting slip was identified with a unique barcode. To me, that is not a secret vote, and I don't trust politicians not to use this information.

[MOD NOTE] Threads merged...

It’s a difficult one. On the one hand, and similar to most developed nations, turnout for elections is pretty poor in the UK and so postal voting might be a way to encourage more to vote. On the other hand, there is nothing stopping an abuse of the system whereby votes are cast by someone other than the intended voter.
On balance, I’d concur with the judge who described the current system as wide open to fraud and have it suspended if not abolished pending a full review. Bit late in the day though isn’t it?

Originally posted by PerlOfWisdom
When I got a postal voting pack, it looked like every voting slip was identified with a unique barcode. To me, that is not a secret vote, and I don't trust politicians not to use this information.

Actually, every ballot paper is also uniquely identifiable and I believe that it is in principle possible to trace a ballot paper back to you as well.

Just thought you'd like to know. :)

LoopyLou,

The concern in the courts and press recently over Postal Voting was/is really one regarding groups getting hold of ballots from other people and using them to support their favoured candidate.

That only affects you if someone comes and asks you for your blank forms or if your forms do not arrive (stolen in the postal system).

You should know by when your forms should arrive so that if you have not got them in time you can contact the Electoral Office to advise them of your situation.

The other security element that you may wish to be aware of, is that all papers in your forms are marked in such a way that should anyone really want to do so, your vote could be traced (although it is illegal) back to you.

After Merge Edit:

Actually, every ballot paper is also uniquely identifiable and I believe that it is in principle possible to trace a ballot paper back to you as well.

Joe,
I assume you mean "non-postal" ballot papers.
I had thought about that but can't remember seeing markings.
I thought it was just the stub in the ballot booklet that was marked.
Can you enlarge on this?

New edit:

I think I now have seen reference to 'serial numbers'.

I'm relying on my postal vote in the forthcoming election given that I want to vote in my home constituency. I'm sure that the unique barcode is simply being used to identify it as a genuine ballot rather than to trace your voting habits. Our right to register our vote without fear of reprisal or question is something we should guard fervently!

Postal voting is secure as long as you post the completed ballot form. Don't hand it over to a third party.

Of course the idea of extending the franchise to people who would otherwise miss their vote due to illness or working away/holiday etc is an essentail part of our democracy. However, the whole issue of mass postal voting raises many security issues for me.

After the debacle in Birmingham last year when 1000 postal votes were found stashed away, unopened and therefore uncounted it gives me little faith in the security of the system.

Link this to the fact that 10 Labour councillors were found guilty of fiddling the election result via the postal vote system and give me the old fashioned system anyday.

I wouldn't be too worried about the barcode on the envelope as I believe that that is used to confirm return of the voting slips and the voting paper is in a further envelope inside.

Originally posted by redrobbo
Postal voting is secure as long as you post the completed ballot form. Don't hand it over to a third party.

Assuming that it gets to the count * see my previous post*

Originally posted by cgksheff

Joe,
I had thought about that but can't remember seeing markings.
I thought it was just the stub in the ballot booklet that was marked.
Can you enlarge on this?

I seem to remember that there's a little pattern of holes on the ballot paper. Not that I pay too much attention to these things.

Originally posted by Mo

I wouldn't be too worried about the barcode on the envelope as I believe that that is used to confirm return of the voting slips and the voting paper is in a further envelope inside.

There is a barcode on your 'voting paper'.

I agree that going along to the poling station in person 'feels' much more secure and safe, but as I don't have this option and feel very strongly about participating in elections. the postal vote option is the only one open to me.

Thank you for the warning about missing voting papers, I will be staright on the phone if it doesn't come when expected.

Any system is open to abuse if someone desparately wants to cheat. Money can buy most things and most people unfortunately......

i used a postal vote in the last election ( i think it was local elections) and it felt pretty secure - it arrived on time and wasn't tampered with or anything. The only thing I worry about is that there is no guarantee your vote has arrived at where they count them, or that it would even be counted, not just ignored - how do you know?

Originally posted by HarrietStar
i used a postal vote in the last election ( i think it was local elections) and it felt pretty secure - it arrived on time and wasn't tampered with or anything. The only thing I worry about is that there is no guarantee your vote has arrived at where they count them, or that it would even be counted, not just ignored - how do you know?

You don't and you have no way of finding out.

It's as safe as houses.

You just sign the form, pop it into either the blue, red, yellow or green envelope. You'll know which one it is, it'll have the name of the party written in big white letters on the front.

Oh, and don't forget to write your name and address on the back of the envelope should it 'go missing'.

Finally, take the envelope to the post box in your car with its loud-speaker hailing 'Vote Tory' or 'Vote Labour', bedecked in the party-of-your-choice's flags and posters.

Safe as houses I said.

Straw houses.

Originally posted by cgksheff
There is a barcode on your 'voting paper'.

Ah right. But there is an identifying feature on even the old ballot box type voting paper. I think that it is technically possible to trace the vote to the person, but who is likely to do that :suspect: ?

I don't give a hoot who knows the way I vote, why should I?

Each voter has a unique reference number consisting of letters (which define polling district) and numbers (which define the number on the electoral roll for that district).
Each ballot paper has a number which appears on the counterfoil as well as on the paper itself.
When the ballot paper is issued at a polling station, the voter number is recorded on the counterfoil and a line is drawn through the voter's details on the register, preventing that person from voting again on that voter number. The ballot paper is punched to make those holes appear. This ensures that the paper has been issued correctly.
With a large number of postal votes, there needs to be some system whereby the ballot papers are counted in the right constituency. For somewhere like Sheffield, where there are six seats, it must be quicker to sort these papers( in envelopes) electronically, hence the use of barcodes to sort by constituency.
It may well be that the barcode on the ballot paper signifies which constituency that paper belongs to.
At one time anyone at the count had to swear that they would not reveal any details about the ballot, for example ballot paper number 1004 is a vote for the DNC party. Armed with this knowledge someone could in theory access the books of counterfoils and find that paper number 1004 was issued to voter number AA014 who is ... The successful candidate, armed with this knowledge, may ensure that AA014 (being a supporter of the DNC party) gets his reward for voting that way.

The election agents will be told how many ballot papers were issued for each voting district so can then see how many voting papers appear for that district. The same applies for postal votes.

At one time polling stations had an envelope where postal votes could be collected during the time that the polling station was open. However, with the advent of postal only elections, there is no need for polling stations, so one could assume that there is somewhere at the Town Hall where votes can be handed in.

Is the system safe? As someone once said, democracy is the worst form of government, apart from all the others.

The serial number on the ballot slip can only be used to match the ballot with the voter on the order of an electoral court on presentation of sufficient evidence to support an electoral writ.

It is then a huge task sorting through 50,000 bits of paper looking for the correct ballot.

Only last year's locals had compulsory postal voting. All generals are currently voluntary postal voting, and compulsory postals for locals have been suspended.

If you are concerned about you ballot getting back to the Town Hall, you can take it in person. The election office serves as a polling station from the start of postalballots going out.

Election staff are also able to witness your form on presentation of a proof of ID, eg passport, driving license. Maybe council tax bill - I'll check.

Postal voting is a pain in the a**e!

Fill in your details

Get someone to witness that its you voting (like that can't be rigged!)

Vote

Put it in the secret envelope of doom. End of story

One of the issues not touched on yet is that of other people filling in ballots. This is a quite separate issue to the mechanics of the postal vote and whether or not it is secure (looks like a pretty tight system to me – only flaw may be relying on the Post Office!).
I recall a documentary last year (Panorama?) about the misuse of the postal ballot within some ethnic communities. The report focused on how there was a traditional expectation that within close knit groups the elders decide the vote and within this larger unit, how the head of the household, the man, would direct the women on who to vote for. I suppose this would be along the lines of the ‘tribal council’ in Afghanistan and the close knit tribal networks that characterise parts of Pakistan. The allegation then is that in certain sections of the community, people (disproportionately women?) are coerced into voting for another’s choice. In these instances, the benefits of the election hall appear overwhelming.
Did anyone else see the documentary? Might even have been a Newsnight report.

Just get off your lazy a*** and go and vote as normal, and before you say we can't because,- then don't,
you are such a small minority it won't make any difference.
rant over.:help:

Originally posted by retep
Just get off your lazy a*** and go and vote as normal, and before you say we can't because,- then don't,
you are such a small minority it won't make any difference.
rant over.:help:

I presume you have just made this statement for effect....

But as i explained in my first post. I cannot vote in person because I will be working away from home.

I take my right to vote very seriously because women in history (and some male supporters) fought on my behalf. Some women died for this cause, so I WILL cast my vote.

As for "you are in the minority and it won;t make a difference".... This is the while point of voting...all these single votes can make a difference.

Its this sort of apathy that risks the whole democratic system. Leaving this important choice to those that can be bothered runs the risk of extreme parties getting a stonghold over our country.

Originally posted by tallyho
One of the issues not touched on yet is that of other people filling in ballots. .

I made it in my first post re the Birmingham fiasco.

I have a postal vote, because I have found access to the polling stations i have used, difficult with my wheelchair.

It suits me to vote postally...

I agree, totally, with loopylou, too many people died, to give me the freedom to exercise my vote, for me not to vote.

I would say that there ought to be compulsory voting, like in Australia..

But with the amendment to the ballot papers to have the usual tick-boxes against the names of the candidates, plus a "none of the above" option.

PT

Appears to be slick system so far.

Confirmation received today from the 'electoral services manager' that my application to vote by post has been accepted !

Considering there was no section on the form to confirm why I was asking in the first place, not sure on what grounds they could have declined by request!

Anyways, just hope the actual form turns up in time, before I leave the county.

(PT, agree compulsory voting would be a good option, but i wonder if everyone would not treat this seriously.... the monster raving loony party could end up in power :D)

I have heard that some people have been offerd money in return for their vote,mugabe would be proud of the way our democracy is being abused.:thumbsup:

no one has offered me any money:mad:

I would take the money, promise to vote in their favour.

Complete the form, (in private) exactly how I wanted too and pocket the money!:D

If they are prepared to cheat and lie - then I can swindle....


Actually, I wouldn't lower myself to this sort of behaviour... but just imagining stitching these lowlifes up, made me feel good.

I received my postal vote yesterday. There are lots of code numvers all over the paperwork e.g. ballot paper number, voter number. I've worked out a couple of codes which I am willing to share:
SHEFC5 is the code for the large envelope and SHEFDL is the small envelope.
I don't think the above info compromises secrecy.

Human error in the Wyre district of Lancashire has messed up some Postal Ballot forms for the County Council elections (also May 5th).
This has resulted in non-matching bar-codes going into the same envelopes. This means that when they are returned, they will be invalid.

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/england/4487493.stm)