OK. We used to let dogs roam the streets untethered, but now it is socially unacceptable to permit them to do so (and we have dog wardens and fines to back this up).

With the increase in cat road deaths, and the impact upon the wildlife in our neighbourhoods (not to mention the excrement deposited in childrens' gardens), is it not time we re-assessed the boundaries of responsible cat ownership?

It seems significant that many pedigree cat owners supervise their pet more closely, but the owners of 'canal fodder' seem to think it is okay to take no responsibility for their pet at all.

So I thought a poll would be interesting......

Cats keep eating my goldfish and the frogs in my pond.
I could put netting over it but that doesn't look very nice.

Cats keep the feeding wild birds away from our garden.

I dont like cats and have my own deterrant: MY DOG (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/viking99/Mcwoot032.jpg) Sorted :thumbsup:

i used to have 2 cats and i accepted resonsibility for them, but u cant keep a cat stuck indoors, it has to be free to go outside and once its outside u dont follow it clearing up after it and u dont know where they go every second of the day!

ok if its seen doing sumthing naughty then i'll accept responsibility, but how many cats are there in every neighborhood? far too many to be able to put the balme on one cat alone!

The cat problem at my old address bordered on the ridiculous. From the minute the first shafts of sunlight started to hit the bottom of the garden the cats started rolling in to bask in it. Our vegetables were dug up from the relentless burying of their turds and the lawns became a bobbar mine field. I have a bright coloured car that was constantly covered in paw prints from moggies trying to keep warm on the bonnet. I used to look out onto the garden at night with an image intensifier only to see a mass of glowing eyeballs. Our entire property reeked of cat slash. If it had been a countryside residence I would have shot or poisoned them, illegal yes but out of sight out of mind. I had tried everything from modern chemicals to the stuff of old wives tales. I even tried various ultra sonic devices but to no avail. All around me cats were being routinely abandoned by their owners who I might add were predominantly single mothers. Once the novelty value of a kitten wears off they are out and forgotten, soon to be replaced by another tiny ball of self centered cuteness. In the end I decided it was time to start enjoying myself instead of allowing it consume me. I decided to fall back on the old catapult/aniseed ball combination. There certainly was no shortage of targets. Eventually I progressed to a bigger more accurate powerfull catapult in order to hit my prey. In the end I was buying aniseed balls in bulk from the wholesalers. There was so much sugar embedded around our house I was scared the lawn would develop diabetes. A few days in and I was so hooked I was considering selling the X-box and using the money to buy a Barnett Black Widow slingshot and 30 kilos of cherry balsams.
http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33686&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

Thank you for illustrating my point so well Louise.

People have the same attitude with their kids. You could just read your post all over again and substitute 'kids' or 'dogs' into where you mention 'cats' and we would all be expected to have a different reaction to your statement

Originally posted by x_LoUiSe_x
i used to have 2 cats and i accepted resonsibility for them, but u cant keep a cat stuck indoors, it has to be free to go outside and once its outside u dont follow it clearing up after it and u dont know where they go every second of the day!

ok if its seen doing sumthing naughty then i'll accept responsibility, but how many cats are there in every neighborhood? far too many to be able to put the balme on one cat alone!

I have to clean up after my dog, why should'nt you clean up after your cat?
No difference if its all over your kids shoes.

Just to test my theory:
Originally posted by x_LoUiSe_x
i used to have 2 kids and i accepted resonsibility for them, but u cant keep a kid stuck indoors, it has to be free to go outside and once its outside u dont follow it clearing up after it and u dont know where they go every second of the day!

ok if its seen doing sumthing naughty then i'll accept responsibility, but how many kids are there in every neighborhood? far too many to be able to put the balme on one kid alone!

See????

i dont have my cats nemore but when i did they spent most of their time in the woods behind my house.

but yes strix u are right its the same with kids.

im not sticking up for the cats here or the cat owners i was just merely pointing out that u cant keep an eye on ur cats all the time. maybe if u chained then up in the back garden like u do with a dog ud be able to clean up after them?

neways i dont have my cats nemore and im not planning on getting nemore so u wont have to worry about their poop on ur gardens! :P

Originally posted by Strix
Just to test my theory:


See????

like i sed i agree with you, but what more can you do??

u cant follow them every second of the day with a lil bag picking up their rubbish and poop (for the cats)?

if my cats had been seen pooping on sum1s garden then i would have gone and cleared it for them, but u very rarely see them!

neway my house seems to the victim of dogs! theres always piles of doggy doo on my garden and theres an alsation that wonders free up and down my road, so i say clear up after your dogs aswell!! lol

Well,

I have cats, neither go far. Kizzy only craps in her tray (as indicated by the fact that she comes in from the garden and immediately goes to the litter tray) and Jarvis tends to have a range of about 30 yards around the house - though seems to crap in our garden and the next door neighbour' place - also cat lovers / owners.

Strix, there are various ways to keep cats off your property, and if you have a hunting cat then a bell on the collar works wonders.

Most cats bury their dirt and rarely go on a surface that isn't soil / gravel. No help if you do get crap on your shoes but I don't believe I've ever trodden in cat crap, but have frequently seen the streets around Walkley adorned with dog crap.

Also, dogs are legally protected - you can kill a cat with your car with little legal come-back; a dog is viewed as an item of property under law, I believe - or did that change with the abolition of the dog licence?

But yes, cat-owners could be more helpful. Get their animals spayed / neutered and vaccinated and get them tagged / collared.

Joe

Originally posted by Strix
Thank you for illustrating my point so well Louise.

People have the same attitude with their kids. You could just read your post all over again and substitute 'kids' or 'dogs' into where you mention 'cats' and we would all be expected to have a different reaction to your statement

That is a completely spurious argument, Strix. Of course people should be responsible for their kids - they brought them into the world and are supposed to teach them how to behave properly in the world - to instill some sense of right and wrong.

Anyone who has ever 'owned' a cat knows you cannot train a cat - if a cat chooses to do something it will, if it doesn't it won't. End of story. You simpy cannot make a cat behave in a certain way if it doesn't want to - if you're stupid enough to try to punish it for behaving like a cat, it will quite rightly seek a home elsewhere.

Cats are very different from dogs in this respect. Even in law it's recognised that a human can never truly 'own' a cat - I believe you can't leave a cat to someone in your Will as you can a dog. Ultimately a cat belongs only to itself.

StarSparkle

Originally posted by x_LoUiSe_x
neway my house seems to the victim of dogs! theres always piles of doggy doo on my garden and theres an alsation that wonders free up and down my road, so i say clear up after your dogs aswell!! lol

Oooohh, that makes me so mad too! I've been to hotels where they permit dogs and provide more than adequate facilities for clearing up, but still there's dog deposits on the neatly mown grass. The only likely result is that the hotel will ban dogs.

GGGGRRRRR. :rant:

All of those arguments only apply to the canal fodder I object to Starsparkle! Your average persian or siamese is not treated with the same indifference as the common moggy.

There must be a reason for this...

Moggies are not suitable animals to be 'kept' as 'pets' and as such, should not be.

Originally posted by Strix
All of those arguments only apply to the canal fodder I object to Starsparkle! Your average persian or siamese is not treated with the same indifference as the common moggy.

There must be a reason for this...

Moggies are not suitable animals to be 'kept' as 'pets' and as such, should not be.

Rubbish.

That's the same argument as saying you shouldn't keep a mongrel dog.

the typical domestic 'moggie' is either a Domestic Shorthair or a Domestic Longhair and have no 'wild' varieties. The most loving cats I've had have been moggies - most pure-breeds are bred so hard to type that they have genetic failings that cause issues with their quality of life. If anything, a 'moggie' is typically a more robust and psychologically well adapted cat for living in a hosuehold with kids and dogs (and other cats) than most pure-breeds.

joe

Originally posted by Strix


Moggies are not suitable animals to be 'kept' as 'pets' and as such, should not be.

ok, so the govenrment bring in that rule. whats happens to all the cats there already is??? they will be wild then. they wont be indoors on a night asleep in their baskets and the wont be fed and taken to the vets when they are ill, they wont be nuetred/spayed and the wont have vaccinations.

so they will be flea raged, disease stricken, forraging in ur bins and crapping even more on gardens, mating and reproducing everywhere and will no doubt become vicous. so there will be a worse situtation than before.

as i sed befire im not sticking up for the cats im just pointing out the situation!

oh n appoligies for the spelling, its not my strong point :P

You are correct Starsparkle, you cannot train a cat. In fact it is difficult to condition them even slightly. Cats are thick. If I sat on someones garden and I was hit with an aniseed ball travelling at almost 200mph I would seriously reconsider using that particular area of land ever again, but I saw cats who had been repatedly hit on numerous occasions before, actually sit whilst projectiles rained down around them only to scarper when one finally hit home. Of course the very same cat would be back the next day only to enter into the cycle once more. Cats are thick.

Originally posted by x_LoUiSe_x
ok, so the govenrment bring in that rule. whats happens to all the cats there already is???
You're right Louise! We need a cat warden ;) round them up and destroy the ones that aren't claimed :thumbsup:

Well that's what happens to the dogs :(

Originally posted by Strix
You're right Louise! We need a cat warden ;) round them up and destroy the ones that aren't claimed :thumbsup:

Well that's what happens to the dogs :(
Can I have that job please :D

Originally posted by Strix
You're right Louise! We need a cat warden ;) round them up and destroy the ones that aren't claimed :thumbsup:

Well that's what happens to the dogs :(

maybe that should be done on a yearly basis, there are far to many strays out there!

Cats ARE thick, you are right AJ.

Have you ever heard of a Guide cat, or a Police cat, or a sniffer cat? I rest my case.

Originally posted by x_LoUiSe_x
maybe that should be done on a yearly basis, there are far to many strays out there!

:hihi: how do you tell? :hihi:

The coolest cat I ever met was called Jarvis, after the company whose access road she was dumped on. She had an injured leg, but when the security guard befriended her, it had mended badly and she had been surviving (rather well) on the small rabbits that infest the area.
She had neck muscles like a dog :shocked:

Originally posted by Strix
All of those arguments only apply to the canal fodder I object to Starsparkle! Your average persian or siamese is not treated with the same indifference as the common moggy.


I confess I'm at a loss to understand what you're trying to say here :confused:

People take less care of their moggy than a pure-bred pet cat?? Since when? You don't seem to think much of cat 'owners'.

ok, a lot of Persians and Siamese, etc are kept indoors all the time, and as a result they don't cause bother to other people. Personally, I think it's cruel not to let a cat outdoors - as hunters they are supposed to go out hunting. Pure-bred cats are notorious for having behavioural problems, being neurotic, etc. I'm not surprised, being kept as virtual prisoners.

As has been said on this thread already, the streets of Sheffield are littered with dog muck - cats at least have the 'decency' to try to bury their mess. I would suggest that dogs are much more of a health hazard than cats.

StarSparkle

My dog tries to bury his poo, but with not having opposible thumbs, he struggles to hold the spade.

forget cats n dogs what about rats! :gag:

Originally posted by StarSparkle
People take less care of their moggy than a pure-bred pet cat?? Since when? You don't seem to think much of cat 'owners'.


Yup :thumbsup:

As you have stated - you don't 'own' the cat you choose to inflict on others. A cat owner introduces the pest into a neighbourhood and then denies any responsibility for it?

Oh, but it's not really yours so you won't really mind if my new cat warden carts it off and terminates it then?

:rant:

Originally posted by x_LoUiSe_x
forget cats n dogs what about rats! :gag:

Iv'e never trod in any Rat crap i dont think, and also never heard of a guide rat.

Originally posted by x_LoUiSe_x
forget cats n dogs what about rats! :gag:

Aaagh :gag:

Oh, did you mean as pets :confused:

At least they don't have fleas. Can you catch anything nasty from a pet rat?

Cats are simply rubbish. One night I thought I was gonna have to be rushed to hospital to have my fingers prised back open because I had sat with them crossed for so long whilst praying for cat flu to take over. I even thought about cultivating it and impregnating my ammo with it. Dum dum sweets.

Originally posted by viking
Iv'e never trod in any Rat crap i dont think, and also never heard of a guide rat.

Haven't they been used for laying cables?

And growing ears? or was that mice? :suspect:

Originally posted by Strix
Yup :thumbsup:

As you have stated - you don't 'own' the cat you choose to inflict on others. A cat owner introduces the pest into a neighbourhood and then denies any responsibility for it?

Oh, but it's not really yours so you won't really mind if my new cat warden carts it off and terminates it then?

:rant:

Your irrational hatred of cats is really quite amusing :P

Perhaps you should see someone about your phobia.....

StarSparkle

Originally posted by Strix
Aaagh :gag:

Oh, did you mean as pets :confused:

At least they don't have fleas. Can you catch anything nasty from a pet rat?

Only the plague (Can't spell Buebonic so just put plague)

Originally posted by StarSparkle
Your irrational hatred of cats is really quite amusing :P

Perhaps you should see someone about your phobia.....

StarSparkle
I don't hate cats, but I have some very real issues with irresponsible owners :rant:

I notice you've resorted to playground taunting Starsparkle ;)

AJ are you not ashamed to openly admit to animal cruelty? why cant you sqwirt abit of water on them it will do the same trick and send them scarpering but without injury :rant:

and yes i am a cat owner and mine lives in the house, he is very well loved and cared for and he has a lead, he has been to the seaside out for day trips and everything with us.

there is no excuse in this world that justifies animal cruelty , it just means you are a sick individual.

Litha

Originally posted by Strix
Haven't they been used for laying cables?

And growing ears? or was that mice? :suspect:

I thought corn grew ears:confused: and corn is in lines are they the same as cables :huh:

Originally posted by Strix
I don't hate cats, but I have some very real issues with irresponsible owners :rant:

I notice you've resorted to playground taunting Starsparkle ;)

I don't take kindly to threats against animals

StarSparkle

Originally posted by viking
Only the plague (Can't spell Buebonic so just put plague)

Nope. that's the fleas.

I meant weil's disease

Originally posted by StarSparkle
I don't take kindly to threats against animals

StarSparkle

What threats? I'm looking for a reasonable solution to the problems cats cause :confused:

I haven't suggested any treatment for cats that isn't metered out already to other pets.

If you have issues with other contributions to this thread, I suggest you address the poster directly

Originally posted by Strix
Nope. that's the fleas.

I meant weil's disease

You need to have an open wound in contact with rat wee wee, or drink rat wee :gag: to get the Weil's thing

Litha, you're a star! I knew I wasn't completely mad :loopy:

Does the sand get in his/her ears? :hihi:

Why can't we have an open day for culling cats:) a bit like the Glorious 12th for Grouse we could have the wonderful 5th for cats without collars, that would also keep all the shooting clubs from wasting ammunition on cardboard targets :thumbsup:

Save the Blackbird and kill a cat, would be a good slogan to adopt :D

Originally posted by Strix
Oh, but it's not really yours so you won't really mind if my new cat warden carts it off and terminates it then?

:rant:

That sounds remarkably like a threat to me

StarSparkle :rant:

Originally posted by owdlad
Why can't we have an open day for culling cats:) a bit like the Glorious 12th for Grouse we could have the wonderful 5th for cats without collars, that would also keep all the shooting clubs from wasting ammunition on cardboard targets :thumbsup:

Save the Blackbird and kill a cat, would be a good slogan to adopt :D
Nice idea, but a waste of ammo.

What about hiring those people who used to cull baby seals, they must be bored now the do- gooders have banned it

Strix, he loves the sand and even paddled in a little puddle. and he absolutly loves candyfloss :D


and owdlad what about a culling owdlad days eh??? :rant:

Originally posted by StarSparkle
That sounds remarkably like a threat to me

StarSparkle :rant:
Nope, that's what the dog warden does already.

Originally posted by Litha
Strix, he loves the sand and even paddled in a little puddle. and he absolutly loves candyfloss :D
Got any pics Litha? :D

Swap you for some leather wedding dress ones? ;)

Originally posted by Litha


and owdlad what about a culling owdlad days eh??? :rant: [/B]


OY! I don't go around killing baby blackbirds! or crapping on peoples flower beds and vegetable plots, and there would be no need to cull cats if they were as house trained as I. So until then


Cull a cat and cut the crap

:P :P is the new slogan

ive got pics but not of him in the sand, one in the caravan and some others but i dont know how to put them on here.

u still got to show me your pics tho :) pleeeeezeeee

Spose I could pop down and get the car washed :)

How about 2 morro? can you view CDs on your computer there Litha?

Originally posted by owdlad
OY! I don't go around killing baby blackbirds! or crapping on peoples flower beds and vegetable plots, and there would be no need to cull cats if they were as house trained as I.
I've just had some unpleasant pictures in my head :shakes:

Can we keep on topic please ladies :|

Clog a cat is the new slogan :D

Originally posted by owdlad
Clog a cat is the new slogan :D
I'm not sure the council will allow me to write that down the side of my new van Owdy :P

Originally posted by Strix
I'm not sure the council will allow me to write that down the side of my new van Owdy :P

How about

Save a blackbird keep your pussy at home.:P

Originally posted by Strix
Nope, that's what the dog warden does already.

Your posting came across as specifically referring to 'my' cats - that I wouldn't mind if your cat warden carted off and terminated 'my' pets. :rant:

Your whole premise is totally ridiculous - rounding up and terminating cats simply for doing what cats do :loopy:

StarSparkle

Originally posted by StarSparkle
Your posting came across as specifically referring to 'my' cats - that I wouldn't mind if your cat warden carted off and terminated 'my' pets. :rant:

Your whole premise is totally ridiculous - rounding up and terminating cats simply for doing what cats do :loopy:

StarSparkle

Calm down dear all the bad vibes will be transferring to your pussies :D

Originally posted by Strix

How about 2 morro? can you view CDs on your computer there Litha?

as long as there not DVD's cos my things broke but normal discs i can. ive got a photobucket account i will have to go and have a look at how i actually use it :|

Originally posted by StarSparkle
Your whole premise is totally ridiculous - rounding up and terminating cats simply for doing what cats do :loopy:

Dogs are rounded up and terminated just for walking down the street unescorted :confused:

Originally posted by Litha
as long as there not DVD's cos my things broke but normal discs i can. ive got a photobucket account i will have to go and have a look at how i actually use it :|

Photobox looked a little easier when I had a scout round :thumbsup:

Originally posted by owdlad
Calm down dear all the bad vibes will be transferring to your pussies :D

I'm perfectly calm, thank you.

StarSparkle

Mod. Note

OK - please chill out and keep the interpersonal jibes and one on one chit chat to PM land.

Joe

Originally posted by StarSparkle
You obviously can't bear not to have the last word.


I hope you are not muddling me up with Owdlad there, Star :suspect:

Originally posted by Strix
I hope you are not muddling me up with Owdlad there, Star :suspect:

Yes, I was, Strix, and I have since corrected my mistake - but the principle holds.

StarSparkle

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/LithaSilverMoon/shesmu/Shezatskeggy.jpg

i think ive managed it, this is my very well loved cat Shesmu in the caravan at the seaside with us

Originally posted by Strix
Dogs are rounded up and terminated just for walking down the street unescorted :confused:

Dogs are rounded up and taken to the kennels where they are kept for 7 days, allowing the owners/carers time to contact the kennels to see if they have been taken there. Aftrer that the dog becomes the property of the council and theirs to "dispose of". It's not clear if this means to a rehoming centre or they put it down. Usually it means the former but I'm sure about that in Sheffield. So at least if your dog gets loose, you have a chance to get it back safe and sound regardless of where it has messed.

Yet, it's okay to shoot at, maim or kill somebody's much loved pet cat? I was dumbfounded last week to find that my housecat, who we sometimes allow into the yard on sunny days, had been shot in the chest during the one and only time that she had escaped over the wall. 1 cm further up and she simply never would have come back and I would never have known what had happened to her. As it is, she now has peice of lead lodged in her lung. It's not just the cats who suffer, you know, but the families who never get to know the fate of their pet and or to say goodbye. Those of you who would kill cats, would you trace the owners and return the body or just dump them?

So, I guess whilst there are those out there who believe it to be acceptable to shoot cats and even enjoy it, we cat owners must take responsibility and keep our pets indoors or risk losing them. Sad but true.

yes it is very sad but true, i used to think it wasnt nice keeping my cats inside but after i have lost them to never know what happened, exceot one and i found her dead it looked like she had been poisened i refuse to let this one out. i know he cries at the window but i know he is safer with me and i know whats happening to him.
i can not for love nor money understand the actions of so called human beings that could possibly harm an animal just for crapping on their gardens. your wrong you know it and you should be ashamed, more to the point arrested.

Litha

Is there not a law that stops people from shooting animals for fun?
Im sure the RSPCA might have a thing or two to say about it.
Which of you shooters can guarantee that the animal will not suffer?
A high pressure water pistol workes just as well and dosnt injure the cat, it will never come back again if it thinks its going to get soaked.
As for cats and fishponds, I have three cats and a pond with frogs and fish and not one has been touched by a cat.
They look but it involves getting wet to catch one, they dont like frogs wont even sniff at them.

Originally posted by Litha
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/LithaSilverMoon/shesmu/Shezatskeggy.jpg

i think ive managed it, this is my very well loved cat Shesmu in the caravan at the seaside with us

Was that shelf fitted specially Litha?
I've no idea why I hadn't already guessed what Shesmu would look like :rolleyes: silly me ;)

Originally posted by brummy_tracy
Is there not a law that stops people from shooting animals for fun?
Im sure the RSPCA might have a thing or two to say about it.
Which of you shooters can guarantee that the animal will not suffer?

I don't think many of the people who voted "where's my gun" are actually likely to carry this out... I can only speak for my self i suppose but I can't imagine killing a cat would be 'fun', and no-one has suggested they would do it for this reason, it would be because they can be a nuisance.

I'm so sorry to hear these tales of cat torture. I know people are as attached to their cats as dog owners are to their pets. It's painful when they're hurt.

I will admit to leaving the hosepipe connected up for despatching the varmints, but I've never set out to hurt a cat.

Some people can be downright nasty :mad:

Originally posted by beckyaa
I don't think many of the people who voted "where's my gun" are actually likely to carry this out...

I only included it because I was interested in the strength of feeling on the matter.

I wasn't expecting it to get as many votes as it has, but it tells us a lot :(

Originally posted by JoePritchard
you can kill a cat with your car with little legal come-back;

WHO-HOO! Bart, to the catmobile.....

Originally posted by tallyho
WHO-HOO! Bart, to the catmobile.....

Hello again, tallyho,

Looks like you just can't stay away from me. :)

First religion, now cats. Where will we encounter each other next?

Joe

I hate cats...............sorry cat lovers!!!

I just don't like 'em!!!

:rolleyes:

great minds and all that. :smile:
Grew up with cats and never had a problem but after I'd left home, whenever I'd return for a visit I'd be puffy eyed, sneezing and itchy within the hour. Conclusion? Cats are not with me, they're against me.

Originally posted by shieshuk
I hate cats...............sorry cat lovers!!!

I just don't like 'em!!!

:rolleyes:

Nothing wrong with disliking them....it's a matter of taste, after all.

Although a major cat lover, I really don't like the Sphinx cats and some of the oriental breeds. I just feel so sorry for the Sphinx cats!

It's when folks want to go after cats with guns and cars that I get concerned! :)

Joe

A boyfriend of mine years ago had one of them blue eyed whitish coloured cats............evil looking animal.....YUK!!

:mad:

This is what we need to rid us of the bird killers

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/kittycannon.html :D

Originally posted by owdlad
This is what we need to rid us of the bird killers

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/kittycannon.html :D

AND THERES MORE!!!

http://www.richsalter.btinternet.co.uk/cks1/index.html :D :D :D

Cats are the bane of my life. I'm a gardener and they drive my insane. Yesterday morning some feline **** house and left a heap of diarrhoea smack-bang in the middle of the path. This is the second 'pile' in a week. It's time I mixed up my brew of Jeyes Fluid - they hate it!:thumbsup:

Originally posted by missb
Cats are the bane of my life. I'm a gardener and they drive my insane. Yesterday morning some feline **** house and left a heap of diarrhoea smack-bang in the middle of the path. This is the second 'pile' in a week. It's time I mixed up my brew of Jeyes Fluid - they hate it!:thumbsup:

There are plants that you can get to repel cats - Jeyes Fluid is actually toxic to cats and can kill them in high enough dosages.

There is a 'green' repellant based on Citronella Oil that seems to be quite good, and there's a plant called Coeus Canina, which I think gives off an odour that cats hate when they touch it with no long term ill effects. You plant the stuff along their walks and that's that. The smell also comes off on your hands, so take care. Called the Pee Off Plant or Scaredy Cat plant. Rue also has a similar effect.

Other suggestions made are coffee grounds, orange and lemon peel, eucalyptus or peppermint oil. Not sure about peppermint as one of mine goes mad for it!

Joe, unapologetic cat lover!

Nothing in that arsenal would be necessary Joe, if only the people responsible for the problem addressed it instead of passing the buck :suspect:

What really annoys me with cats is the lack of responsibility from the owners....we tend to leave our garage open in the summer months as the kids are in and out getting bikes, toys etc

but whenever a cat goes missing it's like it must be in our garage because it has been open all day.......snobs around here!!

I find though whenever a cat does go missing on the street (and it has happened about 10 times in 3 years) we get disturbed check the garage/shed...never here!!


;)

Go and knock on their door and tell them you've lost your pet mouse Shieshuk :D

Cats should be free to roam. Cat owners don't exist. Nobody owns a cat - it's a free animal. What you perceive to be owners are actually just people who (should) provide them with food, shelter and love.

Originally posted by t020
Cats should be free to roam. Cat owners don't exist. Nobody owns a cat - it's a free animal. What you perceive to be owners are actually just people who (should) provide them with food, shelter and love.
Somebody didn't read the whole thread :rolleyes: Starsparkle covered that already, and it's been dealt with. :D

Originally posted by Strix
Go and knock on their door and tell them you've lost your pet mouse Shieshuk :D

snarl....umm it always seems to be when big brother on and I've got all 3 kids in bed and a bottle of Stella in hand....& then ding dong.....cat alert......I do not care...if it is in my garage a overnight lock in will not kill it!!

Dog owners are so much more responsible.........for a start 98% pick up the c**p they leave behind!!

Originally posted by Strix
Somebody didn't read the whole thread :rolleyes: Starsparkle covered that already, and it's been dealt with. :D

There's 6 pages and it's bedtime, so I thought rather than sift through 70 odd posts I'd put across my opinion on the thread and leave it at that. Are people not allowed to offer their opinion if they're the same as what another user has previously expressed?

Originally posted by Strix
You're right Louise! We need a kid warden ;) round them up and destroy the ones that aren't claimed :thumbsup:

Well that's what happens to the dogs :(

What a horrible idea!! :o

Cats also smell!!

Our cat only likes to go out after dark, which is good because he at less risk from traffic and the roaming kids. He always comes in to use his litter tray when he needs the toilet.

kill your cat patchy !!

I have always found cats tiresome. They are wont to vandalise gardens, and take a terrible toll upon wild birds. I find their 'knowing' look irritating and vulgar, and their 'on heat' behaviour is an affront to modesty. They are never welcome in my garden, and would often find a large English Bull Terrier bitch waiting for them, if they ever dared to venture in. What would happen to the cat, should it trespass, is not part of polite, civilised conversation. The idea, however, does hold a certain appeal.

I remember my Dad once telling me that, in history areas of China had a cat mania & hence a total devastation of bird life.
They suffered plagues of biting flies & other stinging insects that had been effectively controlled by the birds.

I know which I prefer ;)

Originally posted by shieshuk
Cats also smell!!

Yes, they have noses and a sense of smell like other mammals.... :)

I assume that you mean thay give off an odour that your find offensive; that's quite a generalisation and very few cats actually smell unless their fur is physically dirty or their diet is a bit 'off'.

Cats are like other animals (humans included) in that they get a bit odorous if they don't wash. Most cats are pretty good at cleaning themselves, and in my experience a smelly cat is a sign of a cat with health problems or some disability that prevents them properly looking after themselves.

I find 'wet cat smell' a lot less offensive than 'wet dog smell'.

And there are some people that I encounter in my daily travels who smell worse than any of my cats have EVER done!

Joe

I like to suggest a change for the title of this thread from 'The campaign for responsible cat ownership' to 'I really am not terribly fond of cats, and I would rather like to be able to express my dislike here'. I'm shocked at how aggressive some forum members have become in response to opinions put forth in this thread, and in addition, how downright nasty some of the cat 'control' suggestions are. I just hope the humour in some of these comments is very subtle and I'm missing it entirely.

Somebody didn't read the whole thread Starsparkle covered that already, and it's been dealt with.

That's a very arrogant reply Strix... This is topic where a lot of people will have similar opinions. I notice you haven't replied to anyone backing up your own comments about cat ownership with a similar 'This has already been dealt with'.

Originally posted by shieshuk
I hate cats...............sorry cat lovers!!!

I just don't like 'em!!!

:rolleyes:

i hate dick heads................ sorry dick head lovers
but i just dont like them.

but i have to go out into the big wide world on a daily basis and encounter them, just because they are upto something i dont like i dont feel the need to run them over, catapult them, poison them or anything else nasty. i get on with my life, which is not that crap and meaningless that i have to resort to harming something smaller than me just to fill the void.:rant: :rant:

To add to my previous post, can I say that there is also a massive logistical difference between keeping a dog indoors and keeping a cat indoors. Cats are infinitely more agile and athletic - it wouldn't be as simple as locking/not having the cat flap. Leave a window even slightly open, even upstairs, and they'd get out of the house if they were so inclined (and most would be if they saw a bird in the garden, for example). Dogs are obedient (and would not be able to jump out of 1st floor windows) so keeping them indoors is very easy compared to cats. So even if cat owners were inclined to imprison their cats (and most aren't, including me) then it wouldn't be as simple as you think.

Originally posted by Litha
i hate dick heads................ sorry dick head lovers
but i just dont like them.

but i have to go out into the big wide world on a daily basis and encounter them, just because they are upto something i dont like i dont feel the need to run them over, catapult them, poison them or anything else nasty. i get on with my life, which is not that crap and meaningless that i have to resort to harming something smaller than me just to fill the void.:rant: :rant:
It would be foolish of me to fire aniseed balls at something that was bigger than me now wouldnt it. Look at it as excercise for the cat and therapy for shooter. Unless of course some cat loses an eye, then its extra points.

AJ you revolting gutless wonder..............:rant:

Originally posted by Litha
AJ you revolting gutless wonder..............:rant: :cry: Easy....I can be hurt :cry:
Now I feel unwanted and unloved.
P.S I snared a few moggies ealier and shaved em. Can I bring em down to you so you can tattoo some targets on them.

bring em on down, ill look after them while i have you pinned down and b****d tattood on ya forhead , you sad sad little excuse for a human being

Mod. Note

AJSheffield, you clearly seem to view your role here to wind people up.

So, consider people wound up and consider this as a warning that if you carry on you'll get a ban.

Chill out, folks, please.

Joe

Originally posted by JoePritchard

Mod. Note

AJSheffield, you clearly seem to view your role here to wind people up.

So, consider people wound up and consider this as a warning that if you carry on you'll get a ban.

Chill out, folks, please.

Joe

Just a bit of fun thats all. Some people seem to take everything way to seriously. I have a feeling part of the clique are offered more protection than others on this forum. At least I dont come on here just to ridicule, condescend and patronise like some do. If anyone thinks I really sit shooting animals in the eyes with aniseed balls then their wrong. Sensitive people must be accounted for to some extent, but anyone who finds my cats post serious must be bereft of humour.
Lighten up chaps.

Well, with respect to birds, I have found the following: http://www.rspb.org.uk/gardens/advice/cats/Copy_of_index.asp

small consoloation though if you see a cat playing with one, I know.

With regards the cat cr@p, you can train them to use a litter tray whether they are house cats or free roaming, especially if cat flaps are fitted but this will not stop people from assuming that the cat is on their patch to do their business and take steps to scare off/kill it.

I'm told that the overwhelming trend in the States is for house cats and many leading publications support this as the great outdoors can be dangerous, as my cat found out the one time she cared to explore it. Provided there is space for them to run around or stairs for them to charge up and down and are provided with toys and interaction, keeping a house cat can be great and much less stressful for both cat and owner. The older they get, the more they sleep anyway and the younger they are the easier a change to house only status is.

So, back to the heading, would responsible cat ownership be regarded as keeping cats indoors or are there any other suggestions?

Originally posted by StarSparkle
Your irrational hatred of cats is really quite amusing :P

Perhaps you should see someone about your phobia.....

StarSparkle yes i have to agree with you starsparkle strix really does have some sort of problem with hating cats and really should see someone about this phobia

Would you also propose we do the same with birds too? Afterall, they pooh anywhere they like and also get hit by cars. Do you propose imprisoning them all as a result, Strix?

If somebody let their pet bird out every day and it kept leaving droppings on your newly washed car, you might feel like you had cause to complain to the owner just as you might complain if a cat dug up your newly planted shrub/veg to relieve itself. If you could trace the owners that is. Harder to do than with a dog. It's a question of pets and "ownership". Furtunately or unfortunately, depending on your views on keeping birds as pets, most pet birds are imprisoned "for their own good" - to keep them safe from other pets and maybe, in extreme cases, getting hit by cars - oh and it keeps the pooping contained too.

I propose a solution (that I have proposed elsewhere).

This solution uses readily available technology and the cost falls upon the pet owners and the government equally.

Firstly - Licences. If its more complicated than a mustelid or rodent, it needs a licence.

A licence is issued upon a successful DNA sample of the animal.

Errant poop is solid state sampled in-situ for basic genetic profile (will be very mixed) and a probalistic match is made. A core sample of the offending matter is retained and preserved in one quick action - and is retained as a reference or for further, more certain, testing.

Animal owner issued with warning.

Further infractions -
Fine.
Extermination of Animal.

So that way, when I see the same mound of alsatian sized poop on the corner every few days, and I guide my thankfully hookworm free son around it as he completely fails to notice it, I can dial 0800-DOG-POOP and have the offending animal destroyed if the owner persists in not scooping after their hound.

Originally posted by LottieWat
If somebody let their pet bird out every day and it kept leaving droppings on your newly washed car, you might feel like you had cause to complain to the owner just as you might complain if a cat dug up your newly planted shrub/veg to relieve itself. If you could trace the owners that is. Harder to do than with a dog. It's a question of pets and "ownership". Furtunately or unfortunately, depending on your views on keeping birds as pets, most pet birds are imprisoned "for their own good" - to keep them safe from other pets and maybe, in extreme cases, getting hit by cars - oh and it keeps the pooping contained too.

True but cats can't be "owned". Birds shouldn't be caged for human amusement either, IMO, but that's another thread.

Originally posted by t020
True but cats can't be "owned".
So should we outlaw their purchase or domestication then?


Originally posted by t020
Birds shouldn't be caged for human amusement either, IMO, but that's another thread.
I think you'll find that option 1 on my poll caters for such an opinion t020

Originally posted by TracieJC
That's a very arrogant reply Strix... This is topic where a lot of people will have similar opinions.

It's a reply to t020, Tracie. He frequently berates other users for not reading the whole thread. I didn't think it was appropriate to repeat all that had gone before just for his benefit. Besides, Geoff would tell me off :rolleyes:

Originally posted by TracieJC
I notice you haven't replied to anyone backing up your own comments about cat ownership with a similar 'This has already been dealt with'.

My own comments? I suspect that I'm being tarred as a 'cat-hater'.

The only person sharing my view so far is Litha, who has her cat on a lead when it's out :confused:
Supervision is safest for cats :thumbsup:

Originally posted by t020
Dogs are obedient (and would not be able to jump out of 1st floor windows)
Two errors in one sentence :D

Being a cat owner myself, I totally agree that cats should'nt be allowed to roam the streets. I've never let my cat wander the streets, and I hate seeing other animals roam aswell, but there is nothing I can do about that.

My cat is a house cat, always has been, the only time he's out is when I let him onto my garden and even then he's supervised, if I have to go back inside, he always comes with me. I've tried him on a leash/harness but he hates it, so he can only use the garden under supervision.

I've had people call me cruel for keeping him inside, but my cat is safe indoors and thats the way I like it, I'm never wondering where he is, if he's safe or even alive, and he doesnt seem to mind it either, he gets plenty of exercise either on the garden or just chasing the dog around in the house, he's happy and so am I.

I got my cat as a pet, and am taking responsibility for my animal, I dont want him roaming the streets where there is the possiblity of him coming to any harm on roads or by another animal or even people.

Lise :)

Originally posted by Missbrum
he gets plenty of exercise either on the garden or just chasing the dog around in the house, he's happy and so am I.

Lise :)

I had to laugh at that one Lise :thumbsup:

I'm glad to hear I'm not totally mad :suspect: :)

Lol, the dog is scared stiff of him, she always tries to avoid him if he comes near her, she wont even look at him, but he still has a go and there's nowhere she can run to get away from him (she's quite a big dog) tis funny to watch sometimes, but he sometimes go's abit too far, lol

Quote:
Originally posted by t020
Dogs are obedient (and would not be able to jump out of 1st floor windows)

Two errors in one sentence

ahh totally i had a staffy cross pit bull and oneday i had gone shopping leaving the bedroom windows open think all was well when i got back i was gob smacked to find he was on the end of the street and the car parked in front of our house ( i lived in a terrace house at the time in east wood)
had a dinted bonnet

i know its going to be murder this summer trying to keep cool and keep my cat in but i feel abiot of hard work on our side is nothing to keeping my cat safetly within my sights.dont get me wrong if i could let my cat out in all knowledge he would be TOTALLY safe i would but i cant so i wont

Originally posted by Strix
It's a reply to t020, Tracie. He frequently berates other users for not reading the whole thread. I didn't think it was appropriate to repeat all that had gone before just for his benefit. Besides, Geoff would tell me off :rolleyes:



My own comments? I suspect that I'm being tarred as a 'cat-hater'.

The only person sharing my view so far is Litha, who has her cat on a lead when it's out :confused:
Supervision is safest for cats :thumbsup:
yep and not only that getting a cat used to a lead means they can share family outings too. it is so much fun taking your cat along to things. does anyone even realise cats love candyfloss, icecream and hotdogs???? well mine does. people see dogs going off to bbq's a drink outside a pub. car boots etc.. why should cats not be taken to. i have some very funny looks when i take mine but the majority of folks say i wish mine would go on a lead .. they will you just have to introduce the lead in the first place. come on folks treat ya kittys likey a would ya dogs they have feelings too ya know and love the attention of going out in the car etc.. ( if at first they get abit carsick) ginger essential oil works wonders) you put o few drops on a cotton wool ball and shove it in the heater vents :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Strix
Two errors in one sentence :D

Ok, dogs are MORE obedient (and it would be VERY UNLIKELY for them to jump out of a 1st floor window).

Originally posted by Strix
It's a reply to t020, Tracie. He frequently berates other users for not reading the whole thread. I didn't think it was appropriate to repeat all that had gone before just for his benefit.


Do I? That's news to me - perhaps you could show me an example? Tracie was right - your tone is often rude and you wind people up nearly as much as me.

right.... strix called into my shop yesterday ( with might i add some bluddy brill leather frock pics:D ) and we were on about this subject it is very easy to mis read/interpret post i will even go as far as saying i MAY be guilty of it. but all in all Strix is not may i add NOT anti cat trust me if she was i would have duffed her she isnt you have all took the initial post and twisted it. re read it then comment/ i know AJ totally mis read it and used this thread for his own horrible little pleasures but that was not the intention of Strix her words have got misinterpreterd. cat owners treat your cats with as much love as you treat your kids

honest it brings as much joy and laughter, they are little things with fealings and a personality, dont throw em out to fendfor them selves it isnt fair

Originally posted by Litha
honest it brings as much joy and laughter, they are little things with fealings and a personality, dont throw em out to fendfor them selves it isnt fair

It's not a case of "thowing them out", it's a case of letting them be free. Good, responsible cat owners would keep a kitten indoors and gradually introduce it to the outside world until it was old enough to go out by itself... which, may I add, is EXACTLY how children are brought up by parents. I don't know of any parents who imprison their, say, 25 year old children, do you?

Well, if I couldn't trust my 25 year old son not to cr@p in next door's garden or cross the road safely, then I would count myself as quite irresponsible parent. You can bring a kid up to know decency and the green cross code and he might, if you're lucky, actually follow those rules. If you're using that analogy why not try and train a cat to use a litter tray which she can access through a cat flap at least? Could that be considered to be responsible cat ownership?

cats dont you just love them

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoePritchard
[B]There are plants that you can get to repel cats - Jeyes Fluid is actually toxic to cats and can kill them in high enough dosages.

I mix up the liquid to disinfect the soiled areas as this puts them off fouling there again. I don't like the smell of it our garden smells like a public convenience at times. The plant Coleus Canina will be available in local garden centres sometime in May I think. I eagerly await its arrival




:clap:

Originally posted by Missbrum
Lol, the dog is scared stiff of him, she always tries to avoid him if he comes near her, she wont even look at him, but he still has a go and there's nowhere she can run to get away from him (she's quite a big dog) tis funny to watch sometimes, but he sometimes go's abit too far, lol

I feel soooo sorry for your dog .. that you let her be hounded (or should that be "felined") by a bossy tom cat ... That's tantamount to bullying on the cat's part! :|

Hopefully, she'll get her own back one day though :D

Originally posted by Strix
Supervision is safest for cats :thumbsup:

I have to say I'm in agreement with this. We're more dog lovers in our house, though we have owned cats in the past, and I like cats.

A few years ago, we had one neighbor who consistently broke the animal control laws in our town by having 5 or more cats at one time. The limit is three. They were all outdoor cats, and aside from having them spayed and/or neutered, said neighbors did little to prevent them from being a nuisance.

They used everyone's flower beds and yards as their toilet, shredded plants, sprayed their urine ALL OVER THE PLACE, had fights under our bedroom window at night, slept on top of and even inside people's cars if the windows were down, and once, got into our garage and took a dump in the baby cradle we were storing for my sister.

Talking to the crazy cat people was a waste of time. They'd apologize, but do nothing about it.

The worst part? The guy across the street got fed up and took matters into his own hands. Everytime one of their cats "disappeared", they'd go down to the animal shelter and get another.

I know cats like to roam and hunt. That's what they do. But when we had our kitty, she was an indoor cat. I cared too much about her and couldn't stand the thought of her being hit by a car, trapped by an irate neighbor, or becoming lunch for any loose dogs.

Also, roaming cats can contract feline leukemia, and although there's now a vaccine, there wasn't when we had our cat.

:) Sierra

Originally posted by LottieWat
Well, if I couldn't trust my 25 year old son not to cr@p in next door's garden or cross the road safely, then I would count myself as quite irresponsible parent. You can bring a kid up to know decency and the green cross code and he might, if you're lucky, actually follow those rules. If you're using that analogy why not try and train a cat to use a litter tray which she can access through a cat flap at least? Could that be considered to be responsible cat ownership?

It could be, yes, though obviously once a cat is outside they'll more than likely revert to type. I don't see why gardeners would complain - if it was a horse they'd be loving it.

Much as I love our (mostly inside & litter-trained) moggy, I flaming hate the un-neutered tom that wanders around our area. He regularly pees up our front door and airbricks and ****s in the grass (no effort to bury it!)

Had to cheer this week, though, when he made the mistake of thinking our cat was an easy target, and ended up running for it with our mog in hot pursuit! :clap:

No one even seems to know who owns the blasted thing, someone must do, as he's been here for a few years.

There's no excuse for owners who can't even be bothered to get their animals spayed! :mad:

Litha i know AJ totally mis read it and used this thread for his own horrible little pleasures but that was not the intention of Strix her words have got misinterpreterd.

I stand by my treatment of feral cats Litha, and thats what they are, FERAL. Stray is a good word to use when you think of them as little gorgeous balls of fun. But these cats are disgusting vermin, no more no less. If you had rats crapping in your garden you would not hesitate to poison them, but because cats have been afforded protection through "cuteness" its a different matter. I have sympathy for mistreated cats and some will say a stray cat can fall under the mistreated cat banner, but as soon as it becomes a stray it becomes a nuisance, vermin, there only to be removed.
You appear to be obsessed with cats, please dont become obsessed with me. This forum seems to be moderating humour, or at least outside the realms of the clique anyway.

Originally posted by AJ sheffield
Litha

I stand by my treatment of feral cats Litha, and thats what they are, FERAL. Stray is a good word to use when you think of them as little gorgeous balls of fun. But these cats are disgusting vermin, no more no less. If you had rats crapping in your garden you would not hesitate to poison them, but because cats have been afforded protection through "cuteness" its a different matter. I have sympathy for mistreated cats and some will say a stray cat can fall under the mistreated cat banner, but as soon as it becomes a stray it becomes a nuisance, vermin, there only to be removed.
You appear to be obsessed with cats, please dont become obsessed with me. This forum seems to be moderating humour, or at least outside the realms of the clique anyway.

Unbelievable. Why should a stray cat be killed just because it's owners have neglected it? Maybe we should start killing lost children too.

Originally posted by t020
Unbelievable. Why should a stray cat be killed just because it's owners have neglected it? Maybe we should start killing lost children too.
I said we would poison rats. I did not however say poison cats. I dont know how you could deal with a cat that has turned feral, I dont know if the process is reversible. Where do you put a cat that has basically turned semi wild, can they be dealt with in any other way.
How on earth did you make the connection with cats and children. What thought processes led you to that link, please explain.
I dont know how to deal with unwanted semi wild moggies in any other way than euthanasia, you tell me.
I would however consider poisoning them if I lived in a country house where I was certain no children would come in contact with the chemicals used and only if it was a legal method (which I doubt there is) and only as a last result.

Originally posted by AJ sheffield
I said we would poison rats. I did not however say poison cats. I dont know how you could deal with a cat that has turned feral, I dont know if the process is reversible. Where do you put a cat that has basically turned semi wild, can they be dealt with in any other way.

Personally I'd leave cat food out for it to make sure it was well fed.

Originally posted by t020
Personally I'd leave cat food out for it to make sure it was well fed.
Actually at my old address I used to feed the next door neighbours cat. She bought it and when it got big she simply forgot about it. I fed it 3 times a day with fresh chicken, pork, tinned food and fresh milk, for some reason it had a phobia with aniseed balls, maybe something that happened in its childhood. This cat would rip your eyes out if you ever dared to stroke it or pick it up. It was at my door as soon as it saw me, waiting for its food, running around my feet like cats do. Picking it up was a definate no no. This went on right until I moved away, despite its complete and utter lack of gratitude, more fool me.
I used to catapult other cats mainly to keep them away from this cat whilst it was eating.
I never fired at a cat that was looking in my direction either, not wanting to hit it in the eyes. i'm no Ray Mears.
Some people take things way too seriously, please lighten up.

Originally posted by Litha
yep and not only that getting a cat used to a lead means they can share family outings too.

people see dogs going off to bbq's a drink outside a pub. car boots etc.. why should cats not be taken to.

But other 'cat lovers' think it's cruel to not let a cat to roam Litha.

I suppose you've had several visits from the RSPCA since this thread started - after all, if it really was cruel to prevent a cat from roaming, the supporters of this theory would have reported you :confused:

Thanks for informing Starsparkle and Twinkle of their mistake about my feelings for cats BTW :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Strix
But other 'cat lovers' think it's cruel to not let a cat to roam Litha.

I suppose you've had several visits from the RSPCA since this thread started - after all, if it really was cruel to prevent a cat from roaming, the supporters of this theory would have reported you :confused:

Thanks for informing Starsparkle and Twinkle of their mistake about my feelings for cats BTW :thumbsup:

If you were taken away from your parents as a baby and locked in someone elses house for the rest of your life without being allowed to go out, would you class that as cruelty?

Originally posted by t020
If you were taken away from your parents as a baby and locked in someone elses house for the rest of your life without being allowed to go out, would you class that as cruelty?
Litha doesn't have a seaside in her house :confused:

If it were genuinely cruel, the RSPCA would have visited her and others who have posted similar supervisory measures for their pets.

t020 - I would be interested to read a reasoned argument from you on this matter. 'It's cruel' seems to be about as far as you seem to be able to stretch on this topic.

It's rather out of character for you ;)

Originally posted by Strix
Litha doesn't have a seaside in her house :confused:

If it were genuinely cruel, the RSPCA would have visited her and others who have posted similar supervisory measures for their pets.

t020 - I would be interested to read a reasoned argument from you on this matter. 'It's cruel' seems to be about as far as you seem to be able to stretch on this topic.

It's rather out of character for you ;)

Answer the question though. For one minute, try to treat animals as though they're living creatures and not just objects for human entertainment. Now imagine you're a cat that's just been taken away its parents as a defenceless kitten. Would you (a) prefer to be gently introduced to the outside world and live a life of freedom, or (b) prefer to be locked inside a house for the rest of your life and never see any of your fellow species?

Just for the record, there are currently

13 owners who don't wish to be responsible for their pet
34 respondents who object to the current situation

(and 16 nosey people who didn't want to vote :hihi: )

Originally posted by t020
Answer the question though.

Would you (a) prefer to be gently introduced to the outside world and live a life of freedom, or (b) prefer to be locked inside a house for the rest of your life and never see any of your fellow species?

As I have not suggested that B is an option, that's your creation, it is invalid in this debate.

At no point have I suggested imprisoning cats, I merely believe that they should enjoy the same care and priveledges as dogs.

The only way to enforce this on irresponsible owners is with the same warden system we currently operate for dogs.

please provide your reasoned argument

Originally posted by Strix
As I have not suggested that B is an option, that's your creation, it is invalid in this debate.

At no point have I suggested imprisoning cats, I merely believe that they should enjoy the same care and priveledges as dogs.

The only way to enforce this on irresponsible owners is with the same warden system we currently operate for dogs.

please provide your reasoned argument


Ok then I think I may have misunderstood your argument. I thought that your argument was that you believed cats should be kept indoors by owners?

Originally posted by t020
Ok then I think I may have misunderstood your argument. I thought that your argument was that you believed cats should be kept indoors by owners?

Nope. As Litha pointed out, I'm not a cat hater. I just find it interesting that where cats and dogs once fell under the same 'rules', and dogs were accepted as roaming the streets, there is now a disparity.

It dismays me to see so many adverts for 'lost' cats, and so much feline roadkill, when this would easily be addressed by a change in the public's attitude.

I have been known to tear strips off people who come out with statements like 'I couldn't look after a dog, so I'm getting a cat'.
Poor bluddy cat :rant: If you can't look after a pet don't have one :rant: :rant:

Nobody can adequately brief a cat as to how to cross a road and how to avoid air rifle pellets :(

Yes but the your last line RE: crossing roads implies you think that cat owners shouldn't let their cats out?

Not at all. I just think they should be supervised when they are.

Litha's cat gets to experience far more of this world on his lead than any free-range cat could. And Miss Brum always supervises her cat in her garden - for his own safety.

I firmly believe that this is responsible cat ownership, and I can't be completely potty for believing so, if there are owners who believe so too.

It's just time for a change in perspectives.

The decision to own a cat seems to be taken a lot more lightly than the decision to own a dog. This is not fair on cats. Millions has been spent on the 'a dog is for life, not just for Chrismas' campaign. I think it's about time people stopped slinging cats outside once they cease to be cute kittens.

I have a cat and it's free to come and go as it pleases. I object to you insinuating I'm an irresponsible pet owner. The cat has had all the necessary jabs + boosters, pet insurance, all the food it needs, etc etc. It is free to go out by itself as a cat should not be denied it's freedom. It was introduced to the outside world gently. Our family has had several cats over the years and none have been killed by a car. Granted, people living on a main or busy road should not let their cat go out so easily, but this isn't the case with mine.

I agree with t020.

I am a responsible pet owner and my kitten is 5 months, she is not allowed out yet as she is tiny for her age and is due to have her operation so she won`t be producing kittens.

We live by a main road and I will allow her out over quite a few months, although at the moment she does not want to go out.

You can`t keep cats in no matter how upsetting it can get if they get run over. I have had a cat die like that, but cats like to roam outside and explore its their nature.

Originally posted by t020
I object to you insinuating I'm an irresponsible pet owner.

This seems to be the top and bottom of your argument.
Your cats have survived your ownership by their own wits (as many roaming dogs did in the past) rather than by any action of yours.

I don't expect things to chage over night. It would be wrong to try to 'imprison' your cat now it is set in it's ways. It would be terribly confused if the boundaries were moved overnight, but I think it's time attitudes began to change and owners were encouraged to consider more carefully the implications of responsible ownership.

When dogs had the same inconsequential status as cats, people were homing puppy 'muts' for free. This rarely happens now, as even cross-breeds are given a higher status, and 'suitable homes' are sought for them.

It is worrying how many 'moggy' kittens are 'looking for homes' by comparison. This isn't a comment upon spaying, it's a comment on the attitude to homing the young animals.

Dogs and cats are NOT the same. Cats delight in the great outdoors and being free whereas dogs appreciate the company of humans a lot more. We'll have to agree to disagree because unless I lived on a busy road I would NEVER want a cat of mine to be imprisoned for the rest of its life, end of.

Originally posted by rosie
We live by a main road and I will allow her out over quite a few months, although at the moment she does not want to go out.

You can`t keep cats in no matter how upsetting it can get if they get run over. I have had a cat die like that, but cats like to roam outside and explore its their nature.

I am shocked and sickened. You are cruel to the extreme.

See what I mean t020? People put their own pleasure above the needs of the cat. It is so unfair.

How many cats do you intend to kill with this irresponsible behaviour rosie?

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Originally posted by rosie
We live by a main road and I will allow her out over quite a few months, although at the moment she does not want to go out.

Only just spotted that.

You need a court injunction dear :mad:

Originally posted by Strix

See what I mean t020? People put their own pleasure above the needs of the cat. It is so unfair.


IMO a primary need of a cat is freedom and the ability to freely socialise with its own species.

Me cruel, you have no idea about me, so don`t make judgements about someone you don`t know.

Strix you need more than an injunction but I won`t swear on here.

Originally posted by t020
IMO a primary need of a cat is freedom and the ability to freely socialise with its own species.
And get squished by cars because people who live on main roads belive their cat should be forced to roam the streets? (re-read rosie's post before retorting to this please)

Anyway, cats are territorial and fight more often than they 'socialise' :confused: (another flawed theory there, t020)

Originally posted by rosie
Me cruel, you have no idea about me, so don`t make judgements about someone you don`t know.

Strix you need more than an injunction but I won`t swear on here.

I know you live on a main road and you intend to force a reluctant cat to venture out into a dangerous environment when you've already lost at least one by this lunacy

And you told me that

I do not force my cat to do anything. I gave her a home when no one else wanted her, I suppose that`s wrong as well.

Just how many cats have you had?

Drat, PMs don't work.

Goodnight t020 & rosie. I'll catch up on this one tomorrow :wave:

Originally posted by Strix
And get squished by cars because people who live on main roads belive their cat should be forced to roam the streets? (re-read rosie's post before retorting to this please)

Anyway, cats are territorial and fight more often than they 'socialise' :confused: (another flawed theory there, t020)

I've already stated that I wouldn't let a cat out on a main road. In fact if I lived on a main road I wouldn't have a cat full stop as it's not fair to let it out in the road OR imprison it for its whole life.

Cats do socialise (as well as fight), whether you believe it or not (you probably wouldn't know since your poor cat is imprisoned). Interaction with their own species is important.

PS. Implying that the majority of cat lovers are irresponsible just because they don't imprison their cats is not going to improve your popularity.

All the options on the poll are “negative” no matter what view anyone takes rather than being neutral and allow the user to give their own informed opinion of what irresponsible is.


Your definition of being irresponsible is one of allowing cats freedom to roam where ever they like which is different to my definition of what irresponsible is which is one of neglects and physical abuse. It could also be arguable that keeping them in 24 hours is more irresponsible than allowing them freedom to leave from another person perspective. It is all on a sliding scale which differs from person to person.


The problem I have is that you label every cat owner who chose to allow their pet freedom to roam as irresponsible adult and are not fit to have such pets.

The RSPCA (http://www.rspca.org.uk/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RSPCA/AnimalCare/Animals&articleid=996827942194) takes different view of your opinion and recommends the following.

A garden or safe place to play and exercise every day, away from busy roads.
To come and go as they please - a cat flap is ideal.
Companionship - to be with other cats or people for at least part of the day.

Anyway, even if this idea you propose was enforced - then may be we should take it one step further and enforced it so that it is illegal for all owners to allow their pet whether it be a cat, or dog to venture outside the bounds of their property whether or not their owner is present since not all owners are taking the responsibility of scooping up the remains of their pets business. Even if everyone did claim to scoop up; there is no guarantee that they have remove 100% of the offending item off the floor.

Let start a campaign to make it that dog owners be responsible by not allowing them to be taken for a walk in the streets, unless of course they had a nappy on them!

I take it you find this acceptable too?

I think this argument is appalling.

There is no room in your voting poll for anyone who likes cats.

I love my cats completely and do take responsibility for them.

Four of my Five cats are moggies and they are just as well behaved and loving as my one 'posh' cat.

I would have liked to take part in the poll, but as all the options were anti-cats in one way or another, I couldn't....it would have been better if there had been some options for those of us who like cats!!!!!!!!!!!

As for saying that people shouldn't own "moggies".....most "moggie" owners are responsible enough to have their pet neutered (which doesn't happen so often with dogs), and I'm sure, if they were able to, would make sure that their cat never defecates on anyone else's property and, if they knew that THEIR cat was the offender, they would offer to clear it up. Quite often cats are blamed for this offence when it's actually foxes that are the problem. What is the alternative to people owning "moggies"? The feral cat population would expand because there would be no control over it, and what do you think that will mean.....more cat do do's in your gardens!!!!!

And, as for a dog being a deterrent....most cats aren't scared of dogs, but would rather run away than get into a fight with one....if a cat is cornered by a dog, the cat will fight back, and it's usually the dog that comes off worst!

:rant:

Originally posted by t020
If you were taken away from your parents as a baby and locked in someone elses house for the rest of your life without being allowed to go out, would you class that as cruelty?
You have a strange view on either cats or children, I cant work out which one is the most extreme. Why do you keep linking the lives and treatment of cats with that of children.

Originally posted by AJ sheffield
You have a strange view on either cats or children, I cant work out which one is the most extreme. Why do you keep linking the lives and treatment of cats with that of children.

It was a link made by Strix originally.

Originally posted by Strix

There must be a reason for this...

Moggies are not suitable animals to be 'kept' as 'pets' and as such, should not be.

I've never read such utter tripe before. Sort yourself out.

Originally posted by AJ sheffield
Why do you keep linking the lives and treatment of cats with that of children.

It was in actual fact the starter of this thread who first linked the treatment of cats to that of children. She appears to think that you should treat children, cats, and dogs all in the same way, and doesn't seem to realise that all three are totally different kinds of creatures.:loopy:

Originally posted by Strix
I know you live on a main road and you intend to force a reluctant cat to venture out into a dangerous environment when you've already lost at least one by this lunacy
And you told me that

Strix - calm down, calm down ... I think you're losing sight of reality here ... I can't see where the op indicated that she intended to FORCE a cat out into a dangerous environment ...

I can see that your intentions are good in wanting to protect animals from danger but some of the language you've used has been a little, to put it mildly, emotive ... I mean "canal fodder" what is that all about??

My garden is full of the neighbourhood cats fighting, sleeping, roaming around peacefully etc etc ... it doesn't really bother me ... I get the pleasure of observing and having a bit of fun with them without the responsibility of actually having a cat! Although I can see that if I only had a little yard and small children my opinion would possibly be different, not sure on that one. Cos when i did have littlies around, we had lots of pets of our own to mess the place up.

Originally posted by t020
I've never read such utter tripe before. Sort yourself out. yes to20 i agree with you here youre right its a load of tripe its about time strix got sorted out .

Originally posted by rosie
Me cruel, you have no idea about me, so don`t make judgements about someone you don`t know.

Strix you need more than an injunction but I won`t swear on here. no youre not cruel rosie but exactly the opposite i think people like you need to be thanked for giving a home to an animal .

Originally posted by tinker
no youre not cruel rosie but exactly the opposite i think people like you need to be thanked for giving a home to an animal .

As you are such a cat lover yourself tinker, how can you approve of somebody who lives on a main road and has already lost a cat to the traffic, so vehemently insisting that her new cat will be an 'outdoors' cat?

This is my whole point. The cat's welfare in this situation gets no consideration. If this situation were presented by a dog owner, the powers that be would be taking an interest, and the pet would most likely be removed for it's own safety.

Cat's are getting the bum deal

I hope thats not me you are refering to insisting my cat will be an outdoors cat.

In fact you come out with some crap, about those responsible and those not, who do you think you are.

Mt kitten is happy, loved and not mistreated, tell me what is so wrong with allowing her out if she wants, should I keep her in and watch her go mad, or do you want me not to be allowed to keep cats.
At least I love them, what do you love apart from youself and your narrow minded ideas.

Originally posted by rosie
I hope thats not me you are refering to insisting my cat will be an outdoors cat.

Mind your language dear ;)

You are a shining example of the shelfishness I believe should be stamped out on behalf of cats. If you want to keep them as 'outdoors cats', move house.

Your statement that your cat was unwanted before you gave it a home also illustrates my point:

The homing of these poor animals in usuitable environments is only possible because of the current accepted norms.
The creation of unwanted cats is only happening because of the current accepted norms.
The senseless road deaths are only occurring because of the accepted norms.

I merely think it's time that there was a campaign with as high a profile as 'a dog is for life...' on behalf of cats

I have 2 cats and will not keep them in its not fair. I wouldnt do it to you so why should i do it to them.

They are happy and go in and out as they please, though they do spend most of thier time in bed, they like to go and lay in the sun in the front garden when it is nice and get stroked by the students next door. They are both rescues and i was inspected by the Cats Protection League before i got 1 of them, (the other was my grandads), and they seemd to think they should go out. Keepin them in all the time is cruel.

Sorry but the only one that sounds like they needs locking up at the minute is you. :loopy:

Originally posted by Strix
As you are such a cat lover yourself tinker, how can you approve of somebody who lives on a main road and has already lost a cat to the traffic, so vehemently insisting that her new cat will be an 'outdoors' cat?

This is my whole point. The cat's welfare in this situation gets no consideration. If this situation were presented by a dog owner, the powers that be would be taking an interest, and the pet would most likely be removed for it's own safety.

Cat's are getting the bum deal

No, under your way cats would be getting the "bum deal". Moggy cats would be homeless because they "are not suitable animals to be 'kept' as 'pets' and as such, should not be". Specially bred (aka animal exploitation) cats would still be allowed as pets, but wouldn't be allowed a free life as they'd have to be locked in a house. So, if cats could speak, I think I know which way they'd prefer to have it - here's a hint: it isn't your way.

Originally posted by fuzzy
Keepin them in all the time is cruel.

Sorry Fuzzy, but I assume you didn't read all of the posts in this thread (now that it's grown so long). I am not proposing that cats should be kept inside, I'm suggesting that they should be supervised, which is quite different. I have provided logical reasons for this argument, and the only ranting I have done is at rosie, who lives on a main road and has already lost one cat to the traffic.

If you have a logical reason beyond 'it's cruel to keep them inside' I'm all ears.

You probably also missed the posts from two cat owners that do supervise their cats when out, too ;) Litha takes hers to the seaside :thumbsup:

Originally posted by t020
So, if cats could speak, I think I know which way they'd prefer to have it - here's a hint: it isn't your way.

Now explain to my beagle why he should be kept supervised, when his instinct to hunt and run has to be constrained, against his nature.

That's why your argument doesn't stack up

Originally posted by Strix
Now explain to my beagle why he should be kept supervised, when his instinct to hunt and run has to be constrained, against his nature.

That's why your argument doesn't stack up

It's YOUR argument that doesn't stack up and that's why people are picking holes in it left, right and centre. First you declare "moggy" cats should no longer be kept as pets. You also suggest pet cats should be kept indoors, but later adapt this to being "supervised at all times". What do you propose? Taking cats out for walks on a lead?! Cats AREN'T dogs. They don't have the same levels of obedience or ability to be trained. Your policy is to make hundreds of thousands of loved and cared for "moggy" pet cats HOMELESS and to force owners of pure breed cats to imprison (with occasional trips out on a lead?!) their cats. You say you care about cats - how does making hundreds of them homeless amount to caring for them? I think a lot more of them would be run over that way since they'd not be spending half of their time in houses. Get a grip!

The king of the mis-quote strikes again.

and just what is wrong with taking a cat out on a lead? if you train a kitten to go on a lead same as you would a new puppy then of course they get used to it. and why is it different to take a dog for the occasional walk on the lead and not the cat? my dog looks out of the window and i know she feels sad sometimes when she see's the unloved dogs roaming the streets cos she probly thinks aww why cant i.. i dont let her for obvious reasons .." the exact reasons i dont let my cat out when i know he feels like going out and is looking out of the window" we play with the cat all the time he is not short of company infact i used to even take him into work with me everyday ive only stopped now cos he has got so big that now he breaks stock. i now live in a 3 storey house so he has got lots of room to play , hes got lots of toys.
we had a lady from the rspca round the otherday, aasking for donations by direct debit, anyway while we were filling the forms out we got chatting and i told her i didnt let my cat out and about his lead and stuff... she said bless him , and i dont blame you , your doing the right thing........ right this was from the mouth of an rspca worker, so noone has any rights whatso ever calling me cruel.
and i think its about time you stopped jumping on Strix back. i have spoke to her face to face she is by no means a cat hater, things in forums get so way out of context it is unbeleivable :rant:

I do think the main thing you have to realise here is that Cats and Dogs are very very different.

I have five cats who I adore and who only have the very best of lives. I do let them out and they just play in the back gardens of my house and my neighbours.

I live on a road that is not particularly busy but can be at times and yes I do still let them out. There is a gate and an alley between our garden and the road and I have trained the cats ( as much as I can) not to go down the alleyway. They are certainly scolded if they ever try to get down it.

To say that cat owners are cruel to let their cats out is terrible. My cats do mean the absolute world to me and I'm genuinely upset that you consider my actions with them to be cruel.

I have lost a cat to a road accident and I was devastated and for a while I would not let my other (then two) cats out but I soon realised that this was not a satisfactory way of life for them.

I spent some time training the cats to not stray down the alley and then I re-opened the cat flap.

One of the main criteria for when I moved house was to not be on a busy road but and roads still has cars on it and tragic accidents can happen but that is a way of life.

You can not cotton wool wrap life, to keep it safe from any suggested danger. You have to live life to its full and accept that dangers exist, attempt to avoud them but not to be paralysed by them.

I cant believe you have a fit for me having a kitten, living by a main road and being me.

What are cats, are they not hunters, how on earth do they do that on a lead.
If I had my kitten on a lead round here the stray dogs (there are a lot) would chase her and what would that do to her.

I prided myself in having animals and bringing my children up to respect them and not to mistreat them. You then critise me for doing this, because I am supposed to cruel to her.

What planet do you live on?

Originally posted by Litha
and just what is wrong with taking a cat out on a lead? if you train a kitten to go on a lead then of course they get used to it.
And it is also very usefull to have when viewing new properties, you know, for estimating room sizes n stuff...









:rolleyes: And for those who don't get it ...
"ya can't swing a cat round in here..."
:o :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :D

well seeing as i wasnt calling anyone cruel i was just saying no-one has the rights to call me cruel when even a lady from the RSPCA didnt have anything to find worrying about my cat being on a lead... im not sure i know where your comments are aimed Rosie/to20.

Don... do you know nothing man??? room sizing is done by swinging men round with their dangly bits :suspect: :P

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/LithaSilverMoon/SHEZ4.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/LithaSilverMoon/SHEZ5.jpg

and just incase anyone doesnt think i really take my cat on a lead here are a couple of pics of when he was a baby looking ohhh so traumatised isnt he " NOT"

Originally posted by Strix
The king of the mis-quote strikes again.

Erm, I quoted you word for word. Perhaps you should think more carefully before spouting forth in future?

Originally posted by t020
Erm, I quoted you word for word. Perhaps you should think more carefully before spouting forth in future? yes well said to20 i sure do agree with you

Originally posted by t020
Erm, I quoted you word for word. Perhaps you should think more carefully before spouting forth in future?
Or repeating your outbursts?

Originally posted by Strix
Or repeating your outbursts?

Did you or did you not say:

Originally posted by Strix

There must be a reason for this...

Moggies are not suitable animals to be 'kept' as 'pets' and as such, should not be.

??

Yes, you did. Therefore I quoted you word for word, and you should actually owe me an apology for wrongly labelling me the "king of the mis-quote".

Originally posted by Olliekitten
I have lost a cat to a road accident and I was devastated and for a while I would not let my other (then two) cats out

I spent some time training the cats to not stray down the alley and then I re-opened the cat flap.

One of the main criteria for when I moved house was to not be on a busy road

I'm glad you have considered the cats' welfare and have taken steps to address your concerns. It's interesting that all the other people who think I'm a cat-hater also say cats are untrainable, but you quite clearly have proved otherwise. :thumbsup:

It's the people who think cats should look after themselves and that cats can do what they like that concern me.

Originally posted by t020
Did you or did you not say:



??

Yes, you did. Therefore I quoted you word for word, and you should actually owe me an apology for wrongly labelling me the "king of the mis-quote".

Paraphrasing previous posters does not constitute an original quote dearie

Originally posted by Strix
Paraphrasing previous posters does not constitute an original quote dearie

Originally posted by rosie
What are cats, are they not hunters, how on earth do they do that on a lead.

Now explain the primary function of a scent hound such as a beagle, which the law requires to be 'under control'. Touche

Originally posted by Strix
Paraphrasing previous posters does not constitute an original quote dearie


I didn't paraphrase, I quoted you EXACTLY. Check back towards the bottom of page 1 and match up what you say with my quotation - an EXACT match. You said it. Apologise to me ASAP.

PS. I know you're desperate to clock up posts, but is it really necessary to post the same thing twice?

why is this turning into a battle of quoting when its the original post by Strix that is the point of the thread.
read the first post carefully before you judge peoples :suspect:

Originally posted by Litha
why is this turning into a battle of quoting when its the original post by Strix that is the point of the thread.
read the first post carefully before you judge peoples :suspect:

So as long as the first post is OK she can say anything she likes thereafter and not expect to be picked up on it? Get real.

oi muppet dont be telling me to get real ta very much its all you lot that will willingly mis read what people are trying to say that should "get real"

Originally posted by Litha
oi muppet dont be telling me to get real ta very much its all you lot that will willingly mis read what people are trying to say that should "get real"

Ok, perhaps you could tell me which part of the following I'm "mis-reading":

Originally posted by Strix
All of those arguments only apply to the canal fodder I object to Starsparkle! Your average persian or siamese is not treated with the same indifference as the common moggy.

There must be a reason for this...

Moggies are not suitable animals to be 'kept' as 'pets' and as such, should not be.

From that, moggy cats = canal fodder and should not be kept as pets, they should be homeless. Specially bred cats only as pets.

Where am I misreading?

My friend used to have her dog wearing a nappy and rubber pants just because it was the wrong time of the month for the dog.

Cats and dogs are meant to be pets, loved ,played with, feed cared for and be part of the family.
They chould be treated with respect, but cats come from generations of hunters.
Unlike dogs they love to claw the ground and put their scent everwhere, and hunt for birds or whatever. Yes before you tell me so do some dogs but I don`t see dogs climbing trees.

If you want to walk around with them on a lead so be it.

I love my cat and she is happy, how do I know, cause she does not sit there miserable looking. I am not sure though Strix you are happy. Go get a cat.

Originally posted by t020
I didn't paraphrase, I quoted you EXACTLY. Check back towards the bottom of page 1 and match up what you say with my quotation - an EXACT match. You said it. Apologise to me ASAP.

PS. I know you're desperate to clock up posts, but is it really necessary to post the same thing twice?

Er, pressed quote instead of edit :blush:
I've asked for it's removal.

It was me that was paraphrasing a previous contribution to this debate - that's why it's not a Strix original :D

No apology :) Bossy boots :P

Originally posted by rosie
I am not sure though Strix you are happy. Go get a cat.

As I have already pointed out, rosie, it would be inconsiderate of anybody to own a pet purely for their own ends. I would not be able to give a cat the time and attention it requires, so I do not have one.

Kindly stop advocating such irresponsible practices

Then kindly stop telling me I am cruel.

Originally posted by rosie
Then kindly stop telling me I am cruel.

Irresponsible at the very least

Why is that remark irresponsible.

Originally posted by Strix
Irresponsible at the very least

It's clear you're not going to budge on this one, but most people disagree with you so you've not managed to sway opinion. Cats will be cats, and I doubt they'd appreciate your campaign to make them prisoners.

rosie youre not irresponsible or cruel , take no notice of strix as ive said before shes a troublecausing cat hater , if there was more people like you they wouldnt be so many neglected and abused cats , keep up the good work nobody can be blamed for being kind to animals .

As stated previously [somewhere at the beginning of this thread], I do not particularly warm to cats, and rather resent the terrible toll they take upon wild birds. Nevertheless, I would not like to see the state intervene with nannying legislation re the conditions of cat ownership, in the way that happened with the Dangerous Dogs Act. Yes, there are too many of the charmless, furry, bawling, puking creatures, and it can be terribly annoying to find flower beds vandalised etc. However, we must always be on our guard against the Big State and its tendency to over-react.

Keep an eye on the self-righteous RSPB. One can imagine the day when these fanatics demand death penalties for egg collectors [the egg thieves whisked away in Helicopter dawn raids], and curfews upon cat behaviour. Poor Tiddles will have to be in before nine, before long, like some maladjusted teenager on an ASBO.

In the scheme of things 'cat problems' are hardly burning issues of national importance. Then again, you never know in Blair's Cromwellian 'New Britain'. I would not have dreamed that fox hunting would become a 'major issue'. I was wrong. Perhaps, when re-elected, Mr Blair will try to deflect attention away from a tedious new 'crisis' by drawing attention to matters Moggy? You have been warned. Perhaps a Dangerous Cats Act is waiting to be passed to deflect attention from the coming interventions in Iran?

Mod. Note,

Please keep the one to ones in PM country - Strix, we can't delete that posting without ripping out a load of subsequent stuff because it's all intertwined.

Sorry!

Joe