I was in the Ha Ha Bar the other day and this bloke came in holding a baby. He was told very politely that children weren’t allowed in the bar area but he could go upstairs to the table service area and order food. This bloke started kicking off about how he shouldn’t have to order food and that licensing laws didn’t say that he had to do this. He was really very annoying and I was about to get up and tell him exactly what I thought of him but thought better of it. The Ha Ha Bar has an over 21s only sign above the door, I like to go to places that aren’t child friendly because I don’t really care for the company children myself.

What are the actual laws for children in bars these days? I always assumed that they weren’t allowed unless you were eating. Doesn’t the licensee have final say?

Originally posted by Fearful
I was in the Ha Ha Bar the other day and this bloke came in holding a baby. He was told very politely that children weren’t allowed in the bar area but he could go upstairs to the table service area and order food. This bloke started kicking off about how he shouldn’t have to order food and that licensing laws didn’t say that he had to do this. He was really very annoying and I was about to get up and tell him exactly what I thought of him but thought better of it. The Ha Ha Bar has an over 21s only sign above the door, I like to go to places that aren’t child friendly because I don’t really care for the company children myself.

What are the actual laws for children in bars these days? I always assumed that they weren’t allowed unless you were eating. Doesn’t the licensee have final say?

You need a family license if you want children in a bar. Otherwise it's 18+ only, that's what happens in places like Varsity etc.

As a parent of two young girls, a bit of clarity would help here. There's nothing worse than being in a pub with your family to be told that the children aren't allowed. All pubs should have a sign beside their front-door clarifying their policies.

A green circle could mean children are allowed on the premises up to 8pm whether eating or not. Thus, a green circle with a number 8 would mean just that;

An orange circle could mean children permitted if eating (and up to a specified time, accompanied, ofcause by at least one adult);

A red circle states that no children are allowed in the pub at any time.

As a parent there are times when I want to take my children in a pub, and there are certainly times when I want to be in a pub without kids!!

Also, I do wish pubs would state their opening hours more clearly, instead of my going to a bar at 3.20pm only to be told that the pub has called time and will re-open at 7pm.

Finally, nearly every pub my family went into in Cornwall a couple of weeks ago were child-friendly. We up North still have some problem with this.

That's not a bad idea Ousetunes.

Pubs in cornwall would all be child friendly though because it's a tourist place. I certainly wouldn't want all pubs in Sheffield to be child friendly!

Most schools would get hysterical if a teacher allowed her/him self to be seen smoking by the children. Smoking in front of children , either in real life or in films or on T.V. is considered a dreadful thing by the government control freaks et al .
Yet , there's no problem , apparently , with letting kids see their parents and other role models , swilling back alcohol in real life , films , t.v or adverts----in fact , often it's seen as positive social behaviour ! Soon , more and more pubs will allow kids in . Does this mean that boozing is harmless or have they been lying about smoking , all along , and kids will smoke , regardless , whether they see adults do or not.
Seems a bit fishy to me. Surely it's not because the Control Freaks can't afford to attack Smokers AND Drinkers , is it ?

for crying outloud, can you not avoid talking about smoking? Maybe you're addicted?

Smoking? Who's taking about smoking? I don't smoke, I just don't like being around kids!!

Originally posted by Fearful
Smoking? Who's taking about smoking? I don't smoke, I just don't like being around kids!!

Errm, the post above mine by Fareast.

The thread is quite interesting although I haven't decided how to comment in general on it yet.

Oustunes - thats a fantastic idea.

I accept that not all people want to have a relaxing drink surrounded by children, though I don't see the problem if they have to leave the premises by a certain time.

A code system at the point of entry would be useful for everybody.

Taking on the issue of children in pubs, do you realise that there are some pubs that won't let children in to eat, yet they will allow dogs (not just guide dogs) in when food is being served. One such place is the pub located on the RHS of the road down to Froggatt Edge from Owler Bar ... it's name escapes me.

I don't quite get that about blind dogs. Do dogs , sitting in pubs cause food poisoning or not ?
How they manage to contaminate the food escapes me at the moment.
Anyway , if they are a health hazard to the more delicate punter , is it right to let even a blind dog in , to cause disease and distress ?
After all , once a blind person has reached the pub he or she doesn't need the dog and it could be tied up in the porch like every other dog-lover has to do.
Does anyone recall the days when dogs were allowed almost anywhere ? Do you recall mass outbreaks of food poisoning ? No , I don't either. In fact , there's probably more gastric problems today. If people over-protect themselves , their bodies don't build up a resistance and hence the enormous amounts of money spent on the N.H.S. and at the chemists for stomach complaints.
Long Live Freedom For ALL Dogs !

I am a dog lover and until fairly recently a dog owner so I'm not against dogs but there are issues with them and food.

One problem is dog hairs, not very nice if found in your dinner.

Another being that dogs, love em, have a nasty habit of being real pains when food is around. They tend to beg,scrounge, whine or just look at you with their big soulful eyes.

Dogs leave their scent everywhere they go. This leads to the obvious problem of 'marking' ie cocking a leg.


Sorry, but animals and food/drink don't go together in my book.

All of the other elements are totally irrelevant to the first question.

It would be great if the license notice above the door actually gave more information than the standard 'x is licensed to sell alcohol on or off the premises'!

I seriously don't understand why most places just don't apply for a family license and then decide whether or not they want to exercise it. It's a licensee's right to decide who they want to allow in, and when they want to allow them in.

I'm not an expert on licensing issues, but I can only assume the license either varies depending on whether you serve food, or what type of license you have. The licensing issues in the places I've previously worked have always been handled at the owner level, and we've been told, 'this is how our license works, this is what you do' and since I've no formal qualifications in the industry, other than basic knowledge of licensing laws I just trust my own judgement, and the license of the place which I work.

We have a family license that allows us children in whenever the bar is open (i'm referring to my previous place, since they still contract me out when I'm needed), so that's from 9am -> 11/12pm. But because, we're a restaurant/bar/cafe I assume that's because of our food serving abilitys. However the pub next door, only allows children during food serving hours, and after 7.30 all children must be kicked out. The same applies at a pub a bit further down the high street, but they serve food till 9.30. So I'm not sure if it's in the landlords decision, or the license stipulates a time.

I just confused myself >_<

As for closing times, it often varies on the place, and they have the right to close whenever they want. Sometimes circumstances dictate opening times. If it's been a particulary busy day, places often close mid-afternoon - evne if they don't advertise it - to allow them to catch up and prepare for the evening, othertimes they might have a technical problem, or they've run out of booze/food and are awaiting an emergency delivery, sometimes it's just a case of short of staff and the manager wants a hour or two break!

Originally posted by Mo
One problem is dog hairs, not very nice if found in your dinner.

These usually fall into the cooking from peoples' clothes, so it is the owners who should be banned

Originally posted by Mo
Another being that dogs, love em, have a nasty habit of being real pains when food is around. They tend to beg,scrounge, whine or just look at you with their big soulful eyes.

Brude doesn't because he doesn't get fed from the table at home, so he doesn't associate the two

Originally posted by Mo
Dogs leave their scent everywhere they go. This leads to the obvious problem of 'marking' ie cocking a leg.

? I certainly wouldn't have a dog in my house if this were actually the case :gag:

Originally posted by Mo
Sorry, but animals and food/drink don't go together in my book.

It's waitresses who fuss the dog when they're serving that makes me feel sick! I wash my hands before eating (due to inevitable dog germs), but they get slobbered on and waltz straight back into the kitchen :gag: :gag:

It's still not the dog that's the problem though. They're probably the same ones who don't wash their hands after going to the toilet :gag: :gag: :gag:

On a more constructive note: it always used to be 14 and over to be in a bar. Children are allowed in the lounge, but not at the bar.

Clubs were over 18.

Not sure if my info is out of date, but it's unlikely

I don't think that the licenced trade can afford to be unwelcoming to children and families as they have a sizable spending power.

Originally posted by Mo
I don't think that the licenced trade can afford to be unwelcoming to children and families as they have a sizable spending power.
Quite, but the licenced trade needs a licence and it is this that dictates who can be on the premises (the landlord's discretion only applies to those (s)he chooses to bar :D )

Originally posted by Strix
On a more constructive note: it always used to be 14 and over to be in a bar. Children are allowed in the lounge, but not at the bar.

Clubs were over 18.

Not sure if my info is out of date, but it's unlikely

I'm not sure if that's true, because certain places (in Sheffield only Walkabout and Varsity(based on experience at other venues!) spring to mind) have an 18+ only license that's in existance all day, every day. It's not that they don't want children, it's that they can't allow children in!

As for licensee's not wanting a license allowing children, in certain places and under certain circumstances it can actually bolster trade if you don't allow children. I've lost count how many times in the bar I previously worked at you hear 'Why do you allow children in?' - 'The place would be so much nicer if the little brat's weren't here'.

It all depends!

As far as I'm aware the Licensing Act only stipulates the age at which people can be served alcohol, and the age under which children on licensed premises must be accompanied.

The age limit policy is entirely down to individual license holders.

We have a number of licensees who post on this site - perhaps one could give us the definitive answer.

I've finally found the relevent document :clap:

http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/20030017.htm

Scroll down to point 145 for the children and alcohol section :thumbsup:


Edit:actually, having read it now, that's as clear as mud :confused:

Originally posted by Hook
I'm not sure if that's true, because certain places (in Sheffield only Walkabout and Varsity(based on experience at other venues!) spring to mind) have an 18+ only license that's in existance all day, every day. It's not that they don't want children, it's that they can't allow children in!
It all depends!

Actually I don't think places like to Varsity and Walkabout do want children in, it's not the market they're after I suspect.

Thanks for the responses everyone, it seems that this is an over complicated bit of legislation.

Ah well. :confused:

There's a time and a place for children.

It's usually the weekend they come back from summer camp before heading off to boarding school.

It's certainly not in the bars of Sheffield; a last great outpost of adult indulgence.

Originally posted by Strix
I've finally found the relevent document :clap:

http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/20030017.htm

Scroll down to point 145 for the children and alcohol section :thumbsup:


Edit:actually, having read it now, that's as clear as mud :confused:

'Fraid the document relates to the Licensing Act 2003. This new act does not come into effect until November 2005.

Originally posted by redrobbo
'Fraid the document relates to the Licensing Act 2003. This new act does not come into effect until November 2005.
Which is that? What will it do? have I missed a post?

Consumer / Trading IssuesChildren in Pubs
20.12.2007

The vast majority of pubs are family-friendly places offering a warm welcome to parents and children. There are many myths surrounding children’s access to pubs and what they can and can’t do when on the premises. The following clarification is intended to help parents and operators of licensed premises understand the law in the following areas. This is the BBPA understanding of the Licensing Act 2003 and is not a legal statement.

GENERAL ACCESS

The licensee has overall discretion over whom he or she allows into the pub.

The Licensing Act 2003 swept away the vast majority of restrictions on allowing children in pubs. Each pub now has a unique set of conditions on the licence which sets out how the pub operates. Generally speaking, children are allowed to enter a pub unless it has a particular licence condition which says children are not to be permitted.

The exception to this is if the pub is used “primarily or exclusively” for the supply and consumption of alcohol on the premises. In this case a child under the age of 16 is not permitted on the premises when the pub is open for business unless they are accompanied by someone 18 or over.

A further restriction is that no unaccompanied child under the age of 16 is allowed on any premises licensed for the sale and consumption of alcohol on the premises between the hours of midnight and 5am if it is open for business.

ALCOHOL

Sale
It is illegal to sell alcohol to someone under 18, or to knowingly sell alcohol to someone who is 18 or over but who then gives the alcohol to someone under 18.

Purchase
Equally, you are breaking the law if you are under 18 and you buy or attempt to buy alcohol or if you are 18 or over and you buy alcohol for someone who is under 18.

Consumption
It is illegal for someone under 18 to consume alcohol on a licensed premises or for anyone working there to allow that to happen.
UNLESS the person is 16 or 17 years old and they are drinking beer, wine or cider with a sit-down meal and they are accompanied by someone 18 or over. This is perfectly legal.

Proof of age
Pubs are responsible for ensuring that they operate within the law and customers may well be asked to prove that they are 18 or older. Customers should not be offended when this happens. Pubs will accept the following forms of proof of age:

Photocard driving licence

Passport

Proof of age card bearing the PASS hologram

HM Forces identity card


YOUNG PEOPLE WORKING IN PUBS

Under the Licensing Act 2003 a person under 18 is allowed to sell or supply alcohol which is being served with a sit-down meal in a premises which is only used for the service of sit-down meals.

For sales across a bar, however, every sale or supply of alcohol by someone under 18 must be specifically approved by the designated premises supervisor (DPS), the premises licence holder or someone over 18 who has been authorised by either the DPS or the premises licence holder. If the sale or supply has not been specifically approved then it is the person who knowingly allows the sale or supply to take place who is guilty of an offence.

In practice this means that someone under 18 may work in a pub, but someone responsible in that pub must specifically approve every sale or supply of alcohol that they make. Think of the example of a supermarket where under 18's work on the checkouts, but must have a supervisor come to their till and specifically approve each sale of alcohol.

If challenged, it is therefore not sufficient to state that the person under 18 had been given the standard authorisation to serve alcohol that all members of bar staff are given.

Why are you bringing a thread up from 2005?

Hello Scott
Had an argument yesterday with a mate and was looking to prove My point(which I did) and couldn't believe that after 5 years people Still don't know pub rules and regs.
Makes me feel a bit better and I won a pint, so its a little relevant.

That's about it Sir.

sometimes it's just a case of short of staff and the manager wants a hour or two break!

Manager wants a break?... more like manager can't be assed to work when no staff so shuts pub for an hour or two to avoid doing it themselves.... (in the case of my old job!)

On the original question, I'd say it should be at the manager's discretion. A pub's an environment that the parents need to decide if their children should be in, like someone else mentioned, they may be smoke free etc, but bringing in your 4 year old on a match day to get crushed by sweaty supporters, food or no food aint appropriate.

Pubs run for the Majority and for Profit. If a Pub works well with a Herd of Sproggs in, then there is no point in changing it. Gotta be said though that the changes in Law in '95 were Specifically drawn up to protect Sproggs.
Your Locals, Your Choices.

[QUOTE=Strix;371967]These usually fall into the cooking from peoples' clothes, so it is the owners who should be banned



Brude doesn't because he doesn't get fed from the table at home, so he doesn't associate the two



? I certainly wouldn't have a dog in my house if this were actually the case :gag:



It's waitresses who fuss the dog when they're serving that makes me feel sick! I wash my hands before eating (due to inevitable dog germs), but they get slobbered on and waltz straight back into the kitchen :gag: :gag:

It's still not the dog that's the problem though. They're probably the same ones who don't wash their hands after going to the toilet :gag: :gag: :gag:[Dogs don't wash hands after going? Disgraceful!!]

Licensee - please sort you post out with the appropriate quote code - it's unreadable