We recently had just such a thread but sadly some of the content was removed by the OP.
I felt that was a real shame as there was some really good advice and information on the thread that could be put to use by others having similar problems.
So we are going to try and salvage the thread for information purposes... watch this space

when i kept a pit bull i just changed my walking habits took him out early morning late nights when ever i thought they would be no more dog s about

You need to get the dog castrated and always make sure he is wearing his muzzle, you are correct it won't protect him from other dogs but it will stop yours from harming anything else. Try and find a very good behviourist who can help you with him as this is obviously more than just a case of a grumpy dog. As a responsible dog owner you need to make sure that no other dog or person is going to be attacked by your dog - if other owners take responsibility for theirs there should not be problems like this - good luck

did the castration change your dog'd temperament? our dog has a lovely temperament at home and with other human's and dogs who don't try to attck him. he's naturally a very docile dog, and i fear if he was castrated he would become even more docile.. to the point of stationary! also, one of the main reasons we got him was as a guard dog and i'm scared it might affect his guarding instincts, as he needs to be quite territorial..

Not really. He was a bit quieter, perhaps, but he was never aggressive in the first place.

He certainly didn't stop barking if the doorbell rang until he was an old man, but that was about as far as his guarding instincts went. He stopped humping the milkman's leg, too, which was pleasing.

I'm not an expert but there are plenty of people on here who are and I think they'll all tell you that castration is vital, even before you factor in the fights your dog has been in. It's the sensible thing to do.

my sisters dog was attacking other dogs and she had him castrated. He stopped being so agressive to other dogs and has calmed down a lot.
A muzzle is a must and if you say its cutting him then common sense says its not fitting right! Also to help with the control, is he on just a lead or a harness? If he is on just a lead get a body harness as its easier to keep hold of them!

The fact that he has killed a dog already should be a cause for concern and as said on previous post get a good behaviourist.
why are your brothers so against getting him castrated?

I agree with everyone, definately castrate him.

And as for a lead, why don't you try getting one of those "choker" Leads, which means the harder they pull away, the less air they breathe. Sounds cruel but once they get the hang of it they learn not to pull on the lead because they might strangle themselves.

when i kept a pit bull i just changed my walking habits took him out early morning late nights when ever i thought they would be no more dog s aboutim the same with my jack russell,i take him up into the woods around 5 am when no one else is around,any other time he is out he is on a lead because he is naturally aggresive, luckily ,he is small enough to pick up if another dog happens along, the only way to prevent dog fighting is not to let them mix by changing your walking times as you said pk14b7161

You really shouldn't be thinking of breeding from a dangerous agressive dog either. The traits may get passed onto the young which would not be good. It's what repectable breeders try to avoid.

EDIT; Others beat me to it!

Firstly, it's most likely the fact he's entire that's making other dogs go for him... it's not the size of his balls, it's the fact that they're there at all!
You should not be breeding from an aggressive dog and yes - the fact he is now pulling towards other dogs and the fact he retaliates when other dogs start makes him aggressive.
Well socialised, non aggressive dogs know how to diffuse situations and they can recognise signs that a dog isn't friendly way before we can. When they sense this subtle body language, they start to give out calming signals of their own. They don't fight back and kill the other dog.

Secondly, nobody who can't hold him should be walking him. Sorry - end of. The dog's owner is responsible for the dog and if they can't hold him, they shouldn't be walking him. Have you tried getting non pulling gear to slow him down a bit? He'll most likely still pull but you'll be able to hold him.

A castrated dog will still be a guard dog, castration will only help this dog, not hinder him in any way.

Finally, if you have the time and patience to put into lots of behavioural work with him then you may sort him out. I can't say without meeting him and the people caring for him.
Otherwise, you'll have to start planning walks very carefully so that you meet less dogs and ensure he's always wearing non pulling gear (preferably a head halter because you will have control over his face without him wearing a muzzle) in case you do meet a dog.

but he only ever defends himself. if he didn't he would surely be dead by now. other than defending himself he shows no signs of aggression whatsoever. i think big dogs get a bad rap on the basis that a few are aggressive. not all are like this. again, it was only ever in self defence! believe me if he had ever been the instigator then we would have no problem with castrating him immediately. but he never has been. hardly fair that other dogs pick fights with him and he has to suffer

He suffers because he's being attacked because his balls are sending off bad vibes!

Castration would not make him suffer, it'd make his life a lot easier.

My dogs have been attacked, my oldest isn't well socialised and was very old when attacked and I had to pull the other dog off because he was so shocked but my youngest is better socialised and whenever a dog goes for her, she snaps to defend herself, then gives off all the calming signals she can, diffuses the situation and leaves.
She's never been seriously hurt.

If your dog didn't fight back and gave off the right signals, he wouldn't be dead by now.

the dog that died was an illegal breed that had been known to attack to other dogs before.
when he goes for walks, he is an excitable dog and will pull on the lead if he sees any kind of food or sticks or something else he wants to sniff at.
bullmastiffs are guarding dogs by nature. we have had one incident with a burglar who he scared off without biting him

It doesn't make it ok that your dog killed it, just because it was an illegal breed and had attacked dogs.
Your dog still killed another dog, and a very strong breed of dog at that!

I'd also be interested to know what proof you have it was actually a pit bull because many cross breeds are mistaken for pits lately

Bullmastiffs will guard by nature yes - with or without testicles - get them chopped!

thank you, this is very sound advice. his behaviour with non aggressive dogs and when at home is immaculate and despite the lead pulling, he has been to obedience classes and this is the only area that he struggles with as he gets quite excitable when out.
a head halter sounds liek a good idea, i've never heard of these but will certainly look them up as they don't involve having to muzzle him and so leave him open to attack from other dogs with no defence

It may enable you to control him better and you will have control of his muzzle so can turn his face away from dogs (you may not realise that he could actually be staring dogs out - this is very confrontational and will cause dogs to attack).

I would have to say though - I wouldn't allow him to fight back even with a head halter on, if the dog doesn't fight back - a fight doesn't start and it's far easier to diffuse the situation and get out of the way causing no damage to either dog.

You should definitely have him castrated asap.
If he his a part of the family as you said earlier in the thread, then having him done shouldn`t be a problem for you.
Your dog killed another dog, if it was in self defence, then surely it would`ve stopped when the other dog stopped, your dog didn`t it carried on to the death.
If something hapens like this again and it is seen that its happened before and you`ve taken no action(including advice from a vet) then the most probable outcome would be that you would lose your dog.

but they both had hold of each others necks until the end. it was only when the other dog died that it released it's hold on my dog's neck. and vice versa. it could have easily been teh other way round.
but yes, although i am very uncomfortable with it as i find it very unnatural, everyone seems to be right about the castrating. i guess i was just desperately lookig for any other option. i'm still a bit sceptical about large testicles making other dogs want to fight him though. it seems odd. especially when you consider what breeds of dogs attacked and that their owners were mainly young lads

its not so much that he has large testicals , i think the vet was just putting it another way. its the fact he has them and the scents he will be giving off.

but they both had hold of each others necks until the end. it was only when the other dog died that it released it's hold on my dog's neck. and vice versa. it could have easily been teh other way round.
but yes, although i am very uncomfortable with it as i find it very unnatural, everyone seems to be right about the castrating. i guess i was just desperately lookig for any other option. i'm still a bit sceptical about large testicles making other dogs want to fight him though. it seems odd. especially when you consider what breeds of dogs attacked and that their owners were mainly young lads

I can see whats happening from both sides of the fence tho.
I have a large gsd, she is aggressive towards other dogs. I did everything in my power to sort her aggression out and she was a pleasure around other dogs. Then she was attacked by 2 staffies(theres a thread about it somewhere). This sent her straight back to square one, and now she`s going through the whole thing again.
If it meant having her done might help the problem, I would`ve done it.
Surely losing his knackers is better than someone (including yourself) losing a much loved family pet.
I think you know what you have to do(even if you don`t like the idea)
A well fitting muzzle shuld not hurt or cut into your dog.
I use a Halti on Amber, that stops her dragging me allover the shop.

I'd be concerned about your brother's motives for breeding from this dog.
Never mind the personality of your individual dog, depending on what dog you bred him with, you could be responsible for producing a litter of puppies that will grow into strong fighting dogs that are difficult to control.
Unless you are going to ensure that all the puppies he sires are castrated, and are going to responsible homes where they will be pets and not used as fighting dogs, then you will be partly responsible for perpetuating the 'macho fighting dog' culture that we see growing at the moment.
Please have him castrated - I am imagining so many scenarios at the moment - a young person out walking a dog they can't control and getting involved in a fight with your dog, your mum getting involved in a dog fight, being pulled under a car as he goes to attack an aggressive dog... OK all worst-case scenarios, but as he has already killed another dog, they are not in the slightest unrealistic...

Without wanting to sound harsh, how old is this dog now? 13 year olds should certainly not be breeding from a dog and how old will he be when they are old enough to take on this responsiblity?

It's essential, certainly with large breeds that only practically perfect dogs are bred from and to be honest, if I had a bull mastiff bitch she wouldn't be going anywhere near a dog with a history of fighting regardless of who started it. Sorry.

my dog has never attacked a human though luckily and never would. bullmastiffs are friendly docile dogs by nature. but they defend themselves and their family well

it always worries me when an owner puts something like this or the famous "I trust my dog 100%" - how can you? the dog has a mind of it's own, it's own strength and teeth and while most dogs can be controlled with good training and socialising -no dog can be trusted 100% and luck doesn't or shouldn't come into it

it always worries me when an owner puts something like this or the famous "I trust my dog 100%" - how can you? the dog has a mind of it's own, it's own strength and teeth and while most dogs can be controlled with good training and socialising -no dog can be trusted 100% and luck doesn't come into it

I agree 100%

My youngest dog would far rather turn and run but I would never say 'she'd never do that' she's a living thing with her own mind and you can never be too careful, they can do unpredictable things.

I've heard of so many people who's dogs have been destroyed due to attacking someone and they're devastated because 'he's never done it before - it was so out of character' it can happen with any dog.

the dog is two. they would obviously not be breeding it alone, my mum also wants a pup from him, as well as a few family friends, as he has never been anything but a brilliant family and guarding dog.
it's natural for him to defend himself.
the funny thing is, all the parents of the local kids who hang around with my brothers, know what has happened, and as he is quite a 'neighbourhood dog' and well liked, they still feel safer when the kids are out and the dog is with them, because they know he would guard each and every one of them with his life. so that should say something about the type of dog he is.
i just feel like people are not looking at the bigger picture. the dog has only ever defended himself. not all big dogs are villains

why on earth would she want a pup from him when she cant control him! Surely any pup that would come from this dog will be similar in strength and therefor your mum would struggle once again.

You are defending this dog to the fullest and whilst i understand why i feel you need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.
granted dogs do defend themselves but the majority of dogs try to remove themselves from the situation.

but if we assumed that every dog was going to attack a human, then every single dog should be muzzled and on a lead at all times and should never be allowed near humans other than its family members... it's just not very realistic. big dogs are definitely discriminated against. they#re not even allowed to defend themselves without being branded vicious

when i say situation to attack i mean i would never leave them alone woth strangers, if out walking i do not allow them to go up to strangers. If people who have children approach they are put straight onto a lead.I dont leave them alone with my daughter either as she could annoy them..

Your dog sounds like its looking for trouble now, possibly as it feels it needs to get in there first before its attacked, this can happen after a nasty attack but this is also probably due to the fact he still has all his bits and fighting to be top dog.

I understand your love of this dog, I really do and I understand the injustice you feel because he is now having to be kept on lead, needs his nuts chopping etc because of other dogs.

I have a dog who has been attacked and therefore I can't trust him. He occasionally goes offlead when I can guage his reactions but a lot of the time he goes on the lead in the presence of other dogs. He doesn't even bite, he runs and barks but I'm fully aware that this could get him attacked and even killed - he's not small but he's elderly.

I can understand what you mean about looking after the kids but just think for a moment, what's more important - having a pup specifically from him (remember you need to pay out for health tests before you can even consider breeding from him) or ensuring that he is given the best possible chance to live normally, not get attacked constantly, not feel the need to 'get in there first' and furthermore, remove the risk of testicular cancer, him being hit by a car when roaming to find a bitch in season and having more chance of controlling him?

Breeding really should be left to the experts - I know your brothers have read a lot, but they do not know the breed like a true expert and have no real experience.

Consider having another bull mastiff pup from a responsible, experienced breeder who breeds for temperament not profit and has all parents health checked prior to breeding (they need certain tests to ensure the pups won't end up with expensive health problems in the future) and castrate your boy which will allow you to work on his behaviour and give him the chance of living a normal life.

Please - it's in your dog's best interest - it doesn't matter who starts the fights, he's still suffering from keeping his danglies.

I don't know if you've ever looked at their nether regions liver-bird but it's not unusual for a badly socialised castrated dog to attack entire dogs.

It's HIS balls that are the problem - not theirs ;)

i know. but how? he pulled my mother so hard the other day she pulled a muscle in her shoulder and cut her leg quite bad. and that was just to get to half a butty someone had dropped!

That's not good.

Your mother cannot control the dog. If he's only two, things are only going to get worse.

I appreciate your brothers have the dog's best interests at heart, but Lotti made a fair point earlier about finding suitable bitches to mate your dog with - not many responsible breeders are going to want to put their bitch to a cross-breed dog-killer who is difficult to train.

I assume he's difficult to train, as you haven't trained him not to pull. With a big strong entire dog whose prone to getting into fights, that's a nightmare situation.

Edit after seeing above posts: But even if you can accept that he is not individually a bad dog, consider any pups he sires that may well be a liability.

Please get him done. It's only his balls - he won't even notice after the wound has healed. Put his needs and his safety before your desire to have some pups.

I have two staffy's my male staff is a rubbish guard dog my bitch barks at everyone so I think you can have a family pet that will guard.My brother took his dog a lab to Redmires dam the other week.We met up with our two.His dog was off the lead ours weren't.The lab not castrated was really agressive and attacked our male before going for Layla.She was terrified and hid behind our male.The dog attacked again and this time our dog went and had a go back before we dragged the pair apart.Our dog is NOT agressive and loves other dogs in fact the next day it was playing with another dog in the park. I do think you should get him castrated and take advice from the experienced foruumers.

what's a canny collar??
we use a choker at the moment, but he doesnt seem to feel it through his thick skin.
we have used a harness coupled with a normal collar in the past, but that was even worse!
It is a collar that goes over the nose and mouth and fastens at the neck.We got ours from ebay.I was recommended to it by the foruumers.We had tried a halti but it did not work but the canny collar seems to pull the head down when the dog pulls.It worked a treat with our staff but he hated it when we tried it and got it off a few times.

i know castration is teh only way and have accepted this, its just i find it very upsetting for him

This is a very typical thing for owners to say, truth is, it bothers you a lot more than it bothers him! :lol:

Well done though for accepting that's what you need to do - I know it can be difficult, I had hoped to breed from my youngest, she had a good pedigree, had her hearing certificate - obviously still needed hip scoring, had done well in shows and was a lovely, lovely dog - but she was nervous and had phantom pregnancies which caused behavioural problems when she felt other dogs were threatening her and her 'unborn pups' (that weren't even there) and as such, I had her spayed.

Honestly though, he probably won't even notice - he certainly won't be upset! It's just that we attribute our feelings to dogs and they don't think like that.

it is a nightmare situation. as i;ve said though in every other aspect he's perfect and does as he's told. he just gets excitable when out and pulls on the lead but unfortunately doesn't realise his own strength the poor thing.
i know castration is teh only way and have accepted this, its just i find it very upsetting for him and i just hope he remains the same dog (without attracting trouble from other dogs who want to attack him of course!)

I can't give you any advice on whether he'll remain the 'same' dog, cos we've always had ours done as pups, so they've just always been 'that' dog.
But I do think it's the right thing to do.
He sounds like a great dog and I hope your brothers stick with their interest as animals are very rewarding, particularly in the training/obedience relationship.
I think you're definitely doing the best for him - it's part of being a dog owner that we have to deal with other dogs and the troubles they bring!

Do you have any photos? I used to live with someone who bred mastiffs, and they were beautiful x I'm a big fan of a big dog!

I prefer canny collars for dogs that lunge forwards because it doesn't twist their neck, instead it pulls their nose down as Waddy says, the only thing is, they're not very strong... I'd be concerned about putting a bull mastiff on one without consulting the people who manufacture them first and also if he has quite a short nose you may be better off with a dogmatic. These are far stronger and don't ride up like other headcollars.

I prefer canny collars for dogs that lunge forwards because it doesn't twist their neck, instead it pulls their nose down as Waddy says, the only thing is, they're not very strong... I'd be concerned about putting a bull mastiff on one without consulting the people who manufacture them first and also if he has quite a short nose you may be better off with a dogmatic. These are far stronger and don't ride up like other headcollars.You recommended the collar to me!They probably are not strong enough for a mastiff ours is fine with our very strong staff.Will look into a dogmatic myself thanx.

Don't quote me on this, and I'm not saying I'm an advocate, as I know little about it, or your situation, BUT I think that you might be able to get a dog "chemically" castrated and "temporarily". I have heard that although it can be done "temporarily" and the dog in theory could reproduce at a later stage, the positive effects that the chemicals have on the dog, eg reduced aggressiveness towards other dogs, can last or effect the dog with positive results for a long time. It might be worth investigating this.

Castrated is probably the wrong word in this case, more like a temporary "sterilisation", I imagine.

You recommended the collar to me!They probably are not strong enough for a mastiff ours is fine with our very strong staff.Will look into a dogmatic myself thanx.

I've used the canny on my dog too who used to be a very strong puller and it was fine, I think the way it works outweighs the strength factor but I'd already spoken to the Canny Company and knew they had tested it with staffies - I'd want to know from the company before putting a bull mastiff one one - just in case :)

The Dogmatics are more expensive and come in a nicer material which is more comfortable for the dog. For shorter nosed breeds or for extra security they do more rigid ones made of leather and soft leather which obviously means they ride up less into the eyes. If the canny makes it way up your staffs nose then yes - look into the dogmatic, they also look nicer as they come in patterns and colours :D

but i think people are missing the point that he has never attacked first. it was always self defence. so a muzzle leaves him open to attacks from other dogs and he can't defend himself!

they don;t want him castrated because they are planning on breeding him in the near future. no balls would be a great hinderance.
also, for the same reasons as me, they fear it may change his temperament and make him even lazier than he already is, and he is meant to be a guard dog
Sorry I haven't finished reading this thread yet, but...

There are all kinds of signals dogs give off before teeth become involved

I wound up in the awkward situation of fostering two very nervous aggressive dogs at the same time (usually only allow one foster at a time, but knew both of these dogs already). We couldn't figure out why the larger of the two kept suddenly lunging at the smaller in an out of character kind of way, but after two days we spotted the smaller (terrier) giving her 'come and have a go if you think you're hard enough' wide-eyed stares!

Hackles are easy to spot, as is snarling or growling, but when you're looking at the back of your dogs head whilst out walking, you can't see what signals it's giving off to other dogs. I have to say, as your dog seems to be the common denominator here, I think you do have a problem! (and all the breeds you've mentioned are actually pretty docile unless threatened)

It sounds like your dog doesn't understand that its role is supposed to be to guard with your permission, and is making the rules himself - that's a recipe for disaster.

I could go on at length, but don't know if I'd be preaching to the converted or if it would fall on deaf ears, so I'll just mention (for your mum's sake and to attempt to find a step forward here) that it is possible to have a dog chemically 'castrated' - a bit like taking the Pill. It's a temporary measure, so your brothers shouldn't object to it, but it'll give you a chance to find out if neutering would be the answer without the side effects your brothers don't want :rolleyes:

I'm assuming your brothers have no intention of breeding this dog responsibly... ensuring there is a waiting list for pups before they are produced etc? No responsible breeder would reproduce a dog who has a temperament such as this :shakes: I can see the headlines now when there's 10 more of these animals roaming the streets of Liverpool with owners who can vouch for how lovely they are at home :(

i see what you are saying, but the thing is he only pulls towards dogs who are coming at him in an aggressive manner though. nothing else. with no other dog is there a problem.
he doesn't have an aggressive temperament and the only dogs he has ever pulled towards are dogs who were about to attack him.
he's a bullmastiff cross canary dog we think. the latter is debatable though.Aaaaaarrrrgghhhhh - Canary dogs fall into the same category as 'Rockweilers' - they don't exist!

have a read of this:
http://www.akc.org/breeds/perro_de_presa_canario/history.cfm
and google some more

It would seem that your dog is a crossbreed of a fighting breed (unlike Akitas or Rotts I might add ;) )

thanks for the advice on the chemical castrating strix, someone else mentioned that too and i am definitely going to look into it.
i do think you have missed a lot of what has been said on the thread. i so appreciate what you're saying about my dog possible giving out "come and have a go" signals. but all the dogs that attacked him, were off their leads and were male, dominant dogs. i'm afraid i can't agree with you about pitbulls, japanese akitas and rottweilers being docile dogs. these dogs have a far worse repuation than a bullmastiff!
the vet told us that it was his balls sending out dominating signals (dont ask me how! :confused: ) and that was why he was being attacked. and that we ought to get him castrated. what i also didn't mention on here that despite knowing of all the attacks, the vet (the expert) didn't once blame our dog as she has known him from a pup and knows exactly what his temperament is like. we were worried after the second attack in which we paid for the rottweilers treatment she would suggest putting him down. but she didn't and said she didn't blame him for the attack (which was in self defence, as was the 1st, as was the 3rd).
as for the breeding thing, its really not as simple as us going "oh lets breed him!". a lot of thought has gone into it and we have already rejected a number of offers from other dog owners who wanted to stud him. it has been a well thought out process and we know people who breed dogs for a living so we havent been short on advice or help.
hope this clears some of teh misunderstandings upI'm still reading ;)


vets aren't experts in dog behaviour
Your brothers need to do more 'research'


Your vet is trained in anatomy. Vets come out with some unbelievable comments which they are not qualified to make, and as you're a paying customer it sounds like you've been told what you want to hear ;) If you want an analysis of your dog and it's recent behaviour, phone John Rodgerson or any other top behaviourist or phsychologist :thumbsup:

your comment on breed characteristics suggests your perceptions are influenced solely by the media, not by anybody who 'knows dogs'. Speak to a reputable Rott breeder and they'll tell you how docile the breed is, but speak to a mastiff breeder and they'll most likely ask you to stand back from their dog whilst you're talking (coupled with the fact you've told us your's is crossed with a fighting breed btw)

If you know people who 'breed dogs for a living', I question their position on the whole breeding debate. I know numerous breeders who show at Crufts, and none of them are able to do it for a living - if you're going to ensure all the necessary vet care, home checks and lifetime support are available, you just can't make money at it. If you're making a living at it, you're usually puppy farming :mad:

:confused: how do you mean they 'dont exist2? are they fictional? in your link it gives an account of their history and how they came about, so how can they not exist?

and if you read the posts properly i said that it was a cross between a mastiff and a canary dog but that the "latter is debatable"
they don't exist in the same fashion a 'rockweiler' doesn't exist - it's a misnomer ;)

I did notice that you said 'the latter is debatable' - ergo it's possible

Why are most of the female posters on this thread so keen to cut the dog's ******** off forthwith? There seems to be something suspiciously Freudian about this :roll:It's not a concept that sits well with me either, but in certain circumstances it could be beneficial

I object to those who think it's a cure all though - it doesn't always work!

I always maintained that Brude having his off would make no impact on his behaviour at all - he's still inclined to dominance and still flirts with the ladies (and still has interesting dreams :suspect: )

I should just add that I don't see castration as a cure to the problem. I did state, although possibly too subtly, that it'll take a lot of work but with the danglies out of the way it may well be a lot easier.

Dogs with balls smell different to dogs without them and give off different vibes. It may be that your dog is actually giving signals that you don't read (like confrontational eyeballing or the way he's holding his body) and he may stop doing this when his balls are off, he may not BUT he won't smell like an entire male anymore and as such you have a better chance of sorting the problem.

It's also worth teaching your dog how to cope in a situation where he feels threatened, most dogs know this instinctively but many don't - my boy wasn't socialised so he's had to be taught. I would, however, recommend seeking out a behaviourist for help with this as opposed to dealing with it yourself.

If you want any recommendations or advice on this - please feel free to pm me :)

Also - I know a few people have recommended chemical castration. I felt I should make the point I've only seen this used once and the dog was very different to when he was actually surgically castrated. It doesn't necessarily give a true representation of how the dog will be. This particular dog because very subdued, quiet and not at all himself. After castration he was just his normal self :)

Why are most of the female posters on this thread so keen to cut the dog's ******** off forthwith? There seems to be something suspiciously Freudian about this :roll:

and likewise the man's reluctance to have the same done to their male dogs...

we who argue for "Doctoring", argue for it because we care about our own animals, as well as the welfare of others' animals, too.

We do not want to see the obscenely large numbers of unwanted dogs dumped in kennels/ pounds that are dumped currently.

having read Lotti's post - I'd also suggest if you take her advice that you chose somebody who has a particular expertise in the breed - PM Rain Rescue as she knows somebody who I know is particularly good

I came across them on another forum and can't for the life of me remember what her username was :rolleyes:

I couldn't wait to get my GSD done - thought about breeding from him, as he's a gorgeous dog, both in looks and in temperament. Then I discovered GSD rescue...and rainrescue....and the dog pound...etc etc and realised i would NOT add to those poor dogs with no homes cos it makes me sooo sad. So, off with the balls! MrSpeedDemon wasn't too keen (i think thats just a man-thing) but I think i went something along the lines off "well if you're so worried about the dog, go along with him, lay down next to him and let the vet do YOURS at the same time" Needless to say, off goes SpeedDemon with the dog. Alone! :hihi: Anyways, I no longer have to look at those huge dangly GSD plums anymore, he wont get dangly plum cancer, he has less bits to lick ;) he won't chase bitches and everyone is happy :D I do wonder why you want to breed from a cross bred dog anyway though... Although I've looked at your pics, and he's a stunning looking dog.

cute and fuzzy???:gag::hihi:
out of curiosity, why did you get him castrated?
prostate problems - something a dog can only get if it has nuts

and yes - his were considerably smaller, closer fitting, and fur coated than your average mastiff ;)

Showing him (so lifting him onto a table on a regular basis) kinda brings you into more contact with them, as you cup your hand across them to adequately support his bulk on the way between the floor and lofty perch

I've just remembered we have a pic of Brude's rear end

I took it by accident - thinking I was set on video, but instead wound up with the classic view everybody has of their beagle on a wild walk :hihi:

beagle nuts (http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e393/SFStrix/Brude/?action=view&current=ExtremeBeaglingapr07Totley.jpg)

strix the pic is fab !!!! i also saw shar pai in your dog liver bird....castration is the best bet for definate..my old staffy was a brute with other dogs and it helped a great deal but the reason i got him done was for health and "birth control" he didnt notice any difference except a little more "room" down there !!!

rather oddly, when they removed Brude's nuts they left the sack - unlike the other 'done' dogs I've known. Now he's just neatly fuzzy :hihi:

rather oddly, when they removed Brude's nuts they left the sack - unlike the other 'done' dogs I've known. Now he's just neatly fuzzy :hihi:

When my old dog was "done" it still looked as if the sack was still there, but just, well, rather deflated :hihi: however, as the weeks went by, it sort of shrunk back into place, and he now, all these years on, looks as if he never had any in the first place, you can't see any scar, or anything, it's just perfectly smooth.

Firstly your dog whatever breed/size is unlikely to have killed a true pitbull, no other breed of dog can cope with a pitbulls determined onslaught, they are a perfect fighting machine, even a dog that is 50% pitbull would kill virtually any other breed, on average 9 people a year are killed in the USA by pitbulls, its a shame they are very intelligent loyal dogs, its the sub humans who fight them who want castrating.
Your dog is now a serious threat to other dogs, and will kill again,self defence is no excuse, castration will help but proper controll will still be needed,it always astounds me that anyone can just buy a large dog with no licence, no training, to breed the dog is beyond irrisponsible.
If you are burgled and the dog attacks the burglar you would be prosecuted, its happened.
If you cant face putting him to sleep try one of the companies who train guard dogs for the armed services,they may take him,and he would be well cared for and trained properly.Do nothing and youll live to regret it.

I have spent over 30 years training dogs, i have rescued pitbulls and de trained them,and re homed them with experienced handlers, ive witnessed many dogs fighting,attacking, your dog has killed according to you very quickly,this is very unusual and that tells me you are in serious trouble, you have taken on a dog you by your own admission you cant control, giving him to a proper experienced handler is his best chance of life,if you really think so much of him you would give him that chance, i am far from illiterate? or stupid, just trying to be realistic, vets arent experts in animal behaviour as a rule, and ive yet to see an animal behaviourist with a well trained dog. Just let things slide and you will regret it,

Dogs attack to make a point,not to kill, any dog that kills another dog is unusual or bred for that purpose, soldiers have to be coerced into killing another human, normal humans have inbuilt inhabitions against killing humans,dogs are largely the same, i know of many cases such as yours they ussually end in tragic circumstances, i am not blaming your dog for the fights,but even if he deosnt start them you cant exercise him near other dogs knowing he may kill an aggressor, i was recently asked if anything could be done with an alsation and akita that escaped from their owners garden and killed a terrier[in front of its owners children] i advised them to keep them locked up securly or put them down[they were aggressive] i was ignored,they escaped again and ripped the guts out of a large mongrel and the police had them destroyed. I dont dislike large dogs i do dislike and fear people who cant controll large dogs,worse still are the breeders who sell large dogs to novice owners, the most inadequate blokes choose to keep large dogs,pitbulls,rottweilers,alsations,to boost their own bravado, the dog matures and realises it can dominate its inadequate owner, and pleases itself this happens all to frequently, and like your dog its seldom the dogs own fault.

Having just read through the whole of this thread, there are just a few thoughts that I would like to put forward.

Firstly that your dog is probably not even mature yet (didn't you say he was 2? apologies if I am wrong there was a lot to get through) I just cannot get my head round a dog that is still little more than a big puppy killing like that, yes you may feel that it was self defence but for a dog to fight to the death is rare in my experience, you have to take off the rose tinted glasses and stand back and see reality, your dog is now aggressive and a danger to other dogs.

I looked at the pictures of Monty and it is obvious that he is a much loved family pet, which makes what I am about to say all the harder (I feel mean saying it but I feel that I must), absolutely no one should be walking him that cannot control him, at the moment that means your Mum and your Brothers, a dog knows its strengh and that of the family around it, Monty knows that he has the upper hand... I am sorry this is a bomb waiting to go off in the face of your family.

If Monty progresses with his behaviour then I am afraid that he will be PTS and it will be done eventually by law and out of your hands, that would be sad.

Please talk sense into your family if you can, don't let them breed from him, it is highly likely to change his character and make him even more dominant, please neuter him and look at ways of controlling him.... or find someone else, a special sensible person who can, before it is too late.

What moonbird said. In spades! PLEASE! Don't, Don't, Don't, Don't, bred from him, if he has this aggressive trait.

ok i can see you point liver-bird but you have 2 choices

1. let him have the chop and everybody in your family do some serious training there is no point in you doing it then the dog not listening to your mum or brothers and vice verser.

2. you shy away from all the facts your dog gets in a fight or even worse kills again and he will be PTS.

i understand your saying he is not prevoking but he has had a few incidents now that is going to make him warey of other dogs and now try and be the instigator (the ill get in before the other does)

i wouldnt recommend breeding form him as he has an aggressive streak which ever way you look at.

you are shooting people down that are telling you the truth i understand he is a et and you all love him but if you love him you will castrate him and do some work with him.

if this doesnt work i would seriously consider rehoming him with some who knows what they are doing not just som lad wanting to look hard.

im sorry if i sound harsh but you need to hear it.

Your dog would probably be fine if he hadnt been attacked,the problem is it happened, he will now give off defensive signals when he sees other dogs, they can be so subtle you may not realise yourself, but other dogs will, its a vicious circle of events that is nigh on impossible to mend and is tragic when this seems to be his only fault, for the record ive re homed 2 pits and dont specialise in them, they are best avoided, but even pits dont automatically fight other dogs if brought up properly.

We've had a few problems with other dogs attacking our doberman and she is so wary of dogs now that we never know whether she will ignore another dog if she sees it, want to play or attack before it attacks her- so to be on the safe side we only ever let her off leash when there are no other dogs about.

She gets her regular main walk every day before 6am when there are fewer dogs, cyclists and joggers around in our park/woods but we also try to take her out at busier times so she is not entirely seperated from other dogs all the time.

We take her to quiet places and if she is off leash, we are watching like hawks for any dogs in the distance. Most of the time, she is fine, but as we could nevber be 100% sure she wouldnt have a go (before the other dog has a go at her,), it just makes life a whole lot easier.It saves a lot of hassle in the long run and means we don't have to resort to muzzling her because we're not putting her in a stressful situation where there are lots of other dogs. Whenever Ailsa has been atacked, despite being a big dog, she always comes off worse, and its ended up costing us at the vets because the other dog's owner always managed to do a runner before we could see she'd been injured (or they just didn't give a toss and deliberately set their dogs onto ours).

My posts may be a bit direct even abrupt but were not meant to offend, i wish you and monty the best.

Lotti i know some dogs respond to training, but how many people have the time required to do it properly, ive failed miserably myself with aggresive dogs, age is a big factor, you dont see many fights between 70 year old blokes either.
I have had the exact same problem as liver-bird, except no dogs were killed,our russel terrier was attacked aged two,and became very defensive/aggresive, he is very intelligent and the battle of wits with him has nearly broke my spirit, if he weighed 70 or 80lb things would have been impossible.
Hes now 8 and is slowing down a bit, but you cant take your eye of him or its a fight, hes loyal, obediant,protective,funny and one of the best mates ive ever had,but he fights other dogs through no fault of his own, for the last six years ive owned a problem dog im just glad hes small.

I have had a look at Montys photos, his head does seem to indicate sharpei could be an ingredient, hes very similar to a little known breed called a "cane-corso", this breed was extinct until fairly recently but has been re created by a group of enthusiasts led by the late D B Plummer, Monty could be a spin off of their breeding programme, if so he probably contains pitbull genes[although i doubt they would admit it] at his age he is nowhere near matured, and he will become even more dominant when he does mature, so please try not to delay castration/training.
His non aggressive attitude unless provoked but then making what can only be described as making short work of an opponent would fit in perfectly with a dog bred to guard but also contained pit blood.

Crikey that was a long thread and took me ages.

Anyhow, congratulations on making the right decision for your dogs and other dogs in the neighbourhood by having him castrated.

Before you or your family start to feel guilty, think about this.... Most entire dogs think about two things, food and sex, the need to procreate is so strong, that some dogs stop eating when a bitch up the street is in season. In the old days (70's god I feel old), when people left dogs to roam, many dogs would camp outside a bitches home for days on end and not return home for food.

A breeding dog is kept entire and gets his oats regularly with different bitches to put it crudely. Your dog hopefully will have never have sex, which means that the poor old bugger is frustrated to the hilt and the sweet smell of the bitch up the road is torture for him.

A castrated dog is a happy and contented dog with one less thing to worry about.:thumbsup:

If you explain the medical benefits of castration to male dog owners they usually still refuse to accept it, so I usually say "Its like reading a top shelf mag with your hands tied behind your back".

Funny how this usually does the trick.:hihi:

Lotti i know some dogs respond to training, but how many people have the time required to do it properly, ive failed miserably myself with aggresive dogs, age is a big factor, you dont see many fights between 70 year old blokes either.
I have had the exact same problem as liver-bird, except no dogs were killed,our russel terrier was attacked aged two,and became very defensive/aggresive, he is very intelligent and the battle of wits with him has nearly broke my spirit, if he weighed 70 or 80lb things would have been impossible.
Hes now 8 and is slowing down a bit, but you cant take your eye of him or its a fight, hes loyal, obediant,protective,funny and one of the best mates ive ever had,but he fights other dogs through no fault of his own, for the last six years ive owned a problem dog im just glad hes small.

Yes it takes work - but if you do put the time and energy in, it can be very possible - that was my point!

I was told we'd have less chance of 'rehabilitating' Eddy due to being older and being stuck in his way. Add to that the fact he doesn't hear very well so has to stay on a lead a lot - which makes him worse and he can't see very well anymore so is apprehensive of dogs running near him. He's arthritic and uncomfortable so fears dogs bumping into him - so yes there are lots of issues to deal with with elderly aggressive dogs so I don't think it's appropriate to compare him to 70 year old blokes fighting ;)

I just don't think saying that it's virtually impossible is in any way helping the OP. Dogs can amaze us.

It isnt impossible Lotti, far from it, if you castrate you are probably 90% there. I didnt mean to put anyone off sterilisation,in Montys case its essential and sensible,if i could have sterilised my russel i know it would have cured him, i didnt really have a choice but to keep him entire, he was the only dog pup in his litter and the breeder wanted to keep him himself, for a stud.
As my wife wanted a companion/guard when i was away on business we thought a dog would be better, so i managed to persuade the breeder to part with him on the understanding he could breed from him a few times,but only to his own bitches,and he only breeds every now and again, his pups are ordered before they are born,so i couldnt break my word to him.
The ironic thing is he seems to be infertile. And before i take flack for trying to breed from an aggressive dog, we know its not an heredetry fault,its down to the attack when he was young. He can be trusted with children,livestock,and is extremely tolerant of boistrous/aggresive pups,but not adult males who show him aggression, especially dark/black ones, the dog that attacked him was black.

... an elderly relative visited a few months back and he tried to hump her but was bigger than her when he jumped up, and knocked her over. luckily she was ok and didn't even have a bruise, but we will definitely look forward to not having to deal with incidents like that again!Don't confuse sexual frustration with dominance either ;)

In prison homosexual activity has more to do with intimidation than it does romance :?

There are lots of dominance signs a dog can give off which we humans misinterpret - leg humping being one, and placing paws on the back of other dogs, or on people is another

large dogs ussually need around 3yrs to develop properly,but im not that familiar with this type of dog to be precise.
Sterilising him shouldnt affect his ability as a guard dog, afterall you arent disconnecting his brain, he will still know when seomone isnt cosha.Try to keep him at a sensible weight for his size,your vet can advise you on this,its hard when they live in the house and beg constantly for food but its part of showing him whos boss, and he will be healthier and more alert if not overweight.
You mentioned Monty is food orientated, this can be used to your advantage when training,it ussually only takes me 10 minuits to get a dog to sit using a hand signal without the verbal command, so long as they already sit on verbal command,it looks very impressive but is really easy using small scraps of food[tiny squares of cheese are particularly good]my friends are amazed when their unruly dogs learn to sit using a hand signal in ten minuits, and it ussually sticks eventually you dont need food,but basically if you reward him when he does what you want him to do and not until,eventually he should obey commands almost automatically but you have to be single minded and stick to your guns,short training sessions are essential dont try to do to much in one go and always end a training session with a fun game, so he finds it a good experience,also its hard to train properly when the whole family will be involved, you all need to act as one, i hope this is useful info and good luck.

I must go to bed, but heres a good way to stop him pulling.
Buy a strong lead and leather collar, the lead should be about 5ft long,attach collar snugly but not tight, walk him with your right hand in loop of lead,using your left to form a loop in the middle of the leash, walk forward until he pulls,release loop held in left hand giving him some slack, immediatly you turn and walk in the opposite direction,dont try to pull his head off though just jerk him a little,if you repeat this in short sessions over a few days he should give in and look at you and let you lead him,it can work quickly but Monty may take more time it can cure very stubborn dogs but they are all different,dont attempt this technique with a choke chain or the sudden jerk could trap his skin and he wont like it one bit, your best bet would be to find a trainer who genuinly knows his type well, but shy away from anyone who uses exessive force, bull breeds[i have had staffies]see themselves as equalls with you and can be coerced but will ussually meet force with force.

This is a really hard one, my dog is dog aggressive and it would be easy to say he never attacks anything unless some other dog starts if first, but the truth of the matter is that we as humans often miss the little signals that dogs send out to each other and unless you watch your dog like a hawk to pick up on these signals an attack can happen in the blink of an eye.
Josh is never off lead where there are other dogs about, but with perseverance I can now walk him past other dogs and 85% of the time he is ok. He has a reward if he gets past a dog without going for it, but in honesty I know he will never be 100% reliable.
He sounds very much like your dog in temprement, lovely at home, wonderful with people.
Josh is castrated and its not a big deal. I dread to think what he would have been like if the male hormones were allowed to go on full rampage.
I think you have to sit down with your family and decide whether you want your dog to be in danger from having a death sentence hanging over him if he goes for another dog and kills it, even in self defence.
Then think of a plan of action, castration being one thing, after all would you want to breed with a dog with this sort of tempremnt, I know I wouldnt want to breed with Josh no matter how much I love him, simply because not everyone can deal with a dog aggressive dog and there is a good chance any pups will inherit some of this aggression.
A behaviourist is a must if you cant (and it seems you are not) dealing with the problem at the moment, but you need to ask around for someone who can deal with large and aggressive dogs.

The other thing to consider is what would happen if a child got in the way of one of these attacks, to frightening to think about.

I think a reality check is in order, if your dog is going for dogs and is capable of causing the damage you say he is then he is aggressive and your family need to get him under some control when he is on the streets. This may seem a hard comment but with the Dangerous dogs act it is your legal responsibility to have him under control.

I do hope your sort it out and get your brothers to think about the future of the dog

Apologies to all those who have had their posts edited. This was done to remove all reference to a username (as requested) None of the meaning has been altered in anyway.

Apologies to all those who have had their posts edited. This was done to remove all reference to a username (as requested) None of the meaning has been altered in anyway.

It's great Siân thank you for doing this for us, it seemed a shame to lose such a lot of good information :)