Sorry had to edit

There's only one thing you need to say... 'NEXT!'

Might be some sort of maturity issue your boyfriend has.
Just tell him where to go and to buck up his ideas or he's history.

Not all male of the species are this way, just like not all females of the species are the same.
Some girls act in a similar manner... shouldn't worry so much about it.

It's good to get the rant out every now and again tho!

to be fair, I don't think you can blame his ill manners on being a man ... he's just a selfish and rude person.

If you don't like him - he's only a boyfriend ... give him the noble order of the boot as a belated birthday presentinstead ... maybe that'll satisfy him?

:thumbsup:

It's true that it isn't all men... It is all people! Everyone is just a selfish asshole deep down... I know I am. :D

Oh yeah, and you need to get rid of someone who acts like that.

I'm with DaBouncer on this one.

I'm with you on the reason for your rant tho..but doesn't sound like a good time to break up with him - at least let him try to make it up first! Being single (or enjoying seeing different people!) is good - just make sure you won't regret breaking with him first.

PS - Ive had a few rants like that before tho...and if you find yourself single soon don't fall for the same type of guy again!

Things seem to have changed a bit from when I was courting, - I used to pay for all the outings [she was saving up to get married].

One we were married what was hers stayed hers and what was mine became 'ours', been like that for forty odd years now :confused:

All boyfriends are annoying sometimes, but that's what makes them human. Give him time to say sorry and make it up to you (always fun ;) )

Mind you...if he makes a habit of this silly behaviour I think msbehavin summed it up beautifully...

Originally posted by msbehavin
There's only one thing you need to say... 'NEXT!'

Maybe I'm just old fashioned but I think guys are becoming more ill-mannered [statistically] nowadays. If I'm out socialising with a member of the fairer sex I just automatically pay for the majority of the evening. Back in my courting days this was considered 'gentlemanly' and I'm sure plenty of my friends were the same. The few ardent feminist friends I've got who insist on paying their own way are fine though, I just let them get on with it.

Originally posted by Greybeard

One we were married what was hers stayed hers and what was mine became 'ours', been like that for forty odd years now :confused:

LOL Greybeard :D I like that!!

Originally posted by Lucy_Smith
All boyfriends are annoying sometimes, but that's what makes them human. Give him time to say sorry

if you find someone is always saying `sorry' to you...maybe you should realise that they are always doing things without thinking of you..

dumpsville...population....you! hahahaha

meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Originally posted by WallBuilder
Maybe I'm just old fashioned but I think guys are becoming more ill-mannered [statistically] nowadays. If I'm out socialising with a member of the fairer sex I just automatically pay for the majority of the evening. Back in my courting days this was considered 'gentlemanly' and I'm sure plenty of my friends were the same. The few ardent feminist friends I've got who insist on paying their own way are fine though, I just let them get on with it.
I think times have changed since the days when men used to pay for the women. For a start, go back 30 odd years or more and barely any women went to work, and relied on their men to pay for their upkeep. I don't even think it was about having manners, it was just expected, the done thing.

These days, most women have jobs and can normally afford to pay for themselves. When men offer to pay for womens drinks it's more of an ego-boost rather than anything else. I don't think it's rude if men expect women to pay for their share.

In this situation however, I think it rather harsh of him to expect to be bought drinks all night even if it was his birthday. On my birthday I expect to spend more than I do on a regular night.

he wasent suffering from man flu was he?ive had that its terrible:help:

lalalalalalalalalalala lalalalalala

Sidla, are you living in a parallel universe ... go back 30 odd years and barely any women worked???

ermmmmm! 30 years is the early 1970s and even in the 1870s most single women worked (most married women have been working at least part time outside the home since WWII but I don't imagine we're talking about them here anyway).

I think the custom of the man paying on dates arose because for one thing women always were paid lower wages and for another men were expected to pay for the privilege of escorting a woman out. The women had to spend all their spare money on clothes, hairdos, manicures etc. so as to be a fitting companion for him! :D

Times have changed though and nowadays I would prefer to pay for myself so as not to be beholden to anyone ... that way I can leave when I get bored without feeling mean ...

killerbabe, perhaps when you go out on the town with him you should have a 'kitty', ie you put an equal amount each into the pot.

You'd better manage it though....he'd probably sneak a couple of extras in for himself :D

I have to admit that until I noticed it was your boyfriend's 21st birthday you'd been celebrating I thought the same as many people on here - just move on.

It being his 21st birthday though does make me wonder. I can remember various of my friends getting stewed up about 'big' birthdays. People really build them up & expect them to turn into some amazing day that they'll never forget etc etc. Then when it's a let down (which it invariably is. If you've built it up that much it's unlikely to live up to expectations) the sense of disappointment leads to rows :(

If that is the case then I bet he feels really bad about it. So don't slap him too hard when you see him ;)

Originally posted by rubydazzler
Sidla, are you living in a parallel universe ... go back 30 odd years and barely any women worked???

ermmmmm! 30 years is the early 1970s and even in the 1870s most single women worked (most married women have been working at least part time outside the home since WWII but I don't imagine we're talking about them here anyway).

I think the custom of the man paying on dates arose because for one thing women always were paid lower wages and for another men were expected to pay for the privilege of escorting a woman out. The women had to spend all their spare money on clothes, hairdos, manicures etc. so as to be a fitting companion for him! :D

Times have changed though and nowadays I would prefer to pay for myself so as not to be beholden to anyone ... that way I can leave when I get bored without feeling mean ...
Well I'm young so can't be expected to remember these things. Your reasons seem just as valid though.

Originally posted by Siân
So don't slap him too hard when you see him ;)

Oooooo I don't know Sian ... slappin' could be fun ...

I'm very much with snook on this one ... really really deep down at the very bottom of things ... we are all pretty much the same ... i.e. selfish ... that is the nature of biological creatures.

I also think all men and women have the exact same capacity for being 'good' or 'bad' ... and stuff like this is very rarely a gender issue ... it's a individual thing.

killerbabe:

My advice would be to go with your heart ...

I think when I was created, I was made an exception to the

'Men are complete and utter <enter choice of word here>' legislation

References available on request...

:suspect:

Originally posted by Sidla
Well I'm young so can't be expected to remember these things. Your reasons seem just as valid though.

thank you for your validation, much appreciated :P .... but if you don't really know your source material, better not to quote it! :D

Originally posted by steevie/d
man flu

When women are ill, send for the doctor. When men are ill, send for the drama critic.

Originally posted by Jamie
I'm very much with snook on this one ... really really deep down at the very bottom of things ... we are all pretty much the same ... i.e. selfish ... that is the nature of biological creatures.


Yep, you put it so much better than me, but that's what I mean. We are all just out for ourselves basically, and what people call love is pretty much always selfish. We don't love someone for their sake, we do it because it makes US feel good. There are very few selfless acts around.

I will add, however, that if you are really lucky, you will meet someone who brings out the best in you, and you find yourself doing selfless acts, and not even wanting thanks... but the chances are pretty slim.

when women say sorry...they usually mean it.

when men say sorry...you usually believe it.


:( silly silly women lol. how many times have i warned girls only to get my head bitten off and then the lads do exactly as i said they wud

Killerbabe: dont make the mistake of really trying to make your relationship work if he is selfish and pigheaded!!! I think when your young you work too hard at keeping the relationship happy and on an even keel, when actually your probably not matched at all. when I think of the time I wasted on complete and utter w******!! I would have been better off single and enjoying my own company and playing the field.
When you meet the right person they wont argue about petty things like money as it means absolutely nothing, he should have been happy just being in your company.

Todays society forces you into having a partner or at least that appears to be the norm!!! Enjoy your youth and health and dont waste time on the wasted!!!

****** JUST MY OPINION *****

see now you're talking, but all I can hear is waa waa waa waa....

lol :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Snook
Yep, you put it so much better than me, but that's what I mean. We are all just out for ourselves basically, and what people call love is pretty much always selfish. We don't love someone for their sake, we do it because it makes US feel good. There are very few selfless acts around.

I will add, however, that if you are really lucky, you will meet someone who brings out the best in you, and you find yourself doing selfless acts, and not even wanting thanks... but the chances are pretty slim.

Hi Snook!

Of course ... there are several ways of looking at selfishness ... by that I mean it has different conotations ... also ... I believe that selflessness is the highest form of selfishness ... so it's not a cut and dried kinda thing at all (in life ya gets what ya gives).

Careful what you say on here tho Snook ... last time I suggested that we are all selfish creatures at heart ... the sheffield forum heavies had my guts for garters big time !!!

:P

Originally posted by Jamie
Careful what you say on here tho Snook ... last time I suggested that we are all selfish creatures at heart ... the sheffield forum heavies had my guts for garters big time !!!

:P

People don't like having a mirror held up to themselves, do they? :)

I also don't believe any man that says he is the exception to the 'all men are ********' thing. We all are, and I think we have to make a real effort to be what women want us to be... Like I say, you just might find that some who will make you a better person without having to try.

I know what you mean about selflessness though, until very recently I didn't believe that you can really be selfless, as everything we do, we do for a reason and reward... even if that reward is just a thank you.

I'm getting bored now of listening to the kind of women who crawl over 50 good men to get to a *******... and then complain about what ******** men are. Try dating decent men and see if your opinion changes.

Originally posted by rubydazzler
thank you for your validation, much appreciated :P .... but if you don't really know your source material, better not to quote it! :D
I didn't have any source material, I guestimated. This is why you shouldn't believe everything you read. :D

Originally posted by gularscute
I'm getting bored now of listening to the kind of women who crawl over 50 good men to get to a *******... and then complain about what ******** men are. Try dating decent men and see if your opinion changes.
To paraphrase the legend that is Nick Cave, from his song Stagger Lee....

But very good point and well made.

Cheers. I wonder if it has the highest body count in a song?

Originally posted by gularscute
I'm getting bored now of listening to the kind of women who crawl over 50 good men to get to a *******... and then complain about what ******** men are. Try dating decent men and see if your opinion changes.

But men who are 'b*****ds' are more honest ... because they're being true to what they want and take a more direct route to get what they want from life (and from women).

Maybe women are attracted to this kind of honesty ... while they despise the wimpy 'nice guy' (who tries to get what he wants from women by subjugating himself to them).

Originally posted by technophobe
When you meet the right person they wont argue about petty things like money as it means absolutely nothing, he should have been happy just being in your company.

I think that is a little idealistic. There is always gonna be conflict of opinion in a relationship, because you are essentially two different people. The key to a good relationship is compromise, without being taken for a ride.

Killerbabe- what you need to figure out is whether you actually like this person and whether this is just a one off, or whether this person is taking advantage of you. If this is just a one off then forgive him and get on with things, but if he makes a habit of this sort of behaviour then I would probably imagine you are better off single and enjoying yourself!

beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

I didn`t know men said Sorry.

Women are complex, men are just selfish individuals who don`t realise what they have lost till its gone because they were too wrapped up in themselves.

Have to agree with you there rosie, im a self proclaimed "selfish individual who didn`t realise what he had lost till its gone".

killerbabe, not all guys are like that and the ones who are usually need to do a bit of growing up! I assume he is in his early 20's.

My man says sorry when he's been an idiot so they are out there! It usually takes him a few days though, of which he usually spends sulking around and making huffing noises whenever I walk pass. Has anybody noticed that men have more than a coincindental liking to children when they are in a mood :hihi:

They are like children, my adult sons come home for christmas to get their stockings on xmas morning.
They all like to behave like children, only when in pain or ill children act like adults.

I have 3 sons, and 2 of them are so selfish, my youngest is the sensitive one but he sulks just like the others do when he can`t get what he wants immediately.

Originally posted by killerbabe
Just an update...

The lil git rang and he eventually apologized prefusly (if thats how u spell it??) So i kinda forgave him without backing down too much since it is his 21st today, might aswell be nice to him.

Next time i see him he's getting a slap :thumbsup:
Originally posted by serapis
killerbabe, not all guys are like that and the ones who are usually need to do a bit of growing up! I assume he is in his early 20's.
Pretty safe assumption that one. :hihi:

Originally posted by Snook
I also don't believe any man that says he is the exception to the 'all men are ********' thing. We all are

what a load of ******** :)

Originally posted by rosie
I didn`t know men said Sorry.

Women are complex, men are just selfish individuals who don`t realise what they have lost till its gone because they were too wrapped up in themselves.

that's a pretty warped view of the world.

Love is a biological urge, the primary intention of which is to form a familial group in order to give the offspring the best chance of surviving.

That it's no longer required due to society hasn't and probably won't ever filter through.

what is warped about it.

Please explain.

Originally posted by rosie
what is warped about it.

Please explain.

in my experience men are as complex as women and neither sex has an exclusive license to be selfish.

warp ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wôrp)
v. warped, warp·ing, warps
v. tr.
1) To turn or twist out of shape.


Your view is twisted out of shape (from what I perceive to be the actual case) and thus warped.

So are you saying I am wrong in what I believe.

Men are as complex as women, what evidence do you have of this then.

Originally posted by rosie
Men are as complex as women, what evidence do you have of this then.

what evidence do YOU have

Originally posted by rosie
So are you saying I am wrong in what I believe.

Men are as complex as women, what evidence do you have of this then.

Having observed the behaviour of a cross section of women and subsequently talked to a smaller cross section about why they act in the way they do. I have concluded that they are fairly complex beings.
Being a man myself I have no difficulty in self analysis and find that the complexity of the women appears to be on a par with my own.

So yes, I am saying that you are wrong.
If you wish I'm sure we can find numerous studies in psychology, behavioural science, sociolgy and biology that support my argument.

Originally posted by rosie
I didn`t know men said Sorry.

Women are complex, men are just selfish individuals who don`t realise what they have lost till its gone because they were too wrapped up in themselves.

what a stupid lazy generalisation

My evidence, I don`t need to got to book or studies, after having 3 brothers, 2 husbands and 3 son`s that is all the evidence I need.

Lets also say being x army there is evidence I have seen for my self of men being selfish and not apologising for it.

As for stupid lazy generalisation, thats your opinion, and you can have your opinion but don`t say it`s wrong or stupid for me to have mine.

I apologise when I need to and I don`t mind doing so.

well i have had enough of this women are always/appear to be right and men are wrong. We are both as bad as each other. Men are straight down the line, even if they are wrong.. Women are more calculated and more complexed...

Its true about women like the bad boy thing, I am a pretty nice guy and haver been told so, so not just saying it. But I have to say that I have reverted to the bad boy/confident/arrogant stereotype to get women because it works! so what does that say???

Also when a women goes out with a guy, she will make subtle changes to him, be it clothes/appearance, who he hangs around with, interests/hobbies for example. Then a few years down the line will moan that he is not the man that she first met!!!!!!!!

RANT OVER...FOR NOW!

Originally posted by rosie
My evidence, I don`t need to got to book or studies, after having 3 brothers, 2 husbands and 3 son`s that is all the evidence I need.

Lets also say being x army there is evidence I have seen for my self of men being selfish and not apologising for it.

As for stupid lazy generalisation, thats your opinion, and you can have your opinion but don`t say it`s wrong or stupid for me to have mine.

I apologise when I need to and I don`t mind doing so.

Until you have known every man, you cannot make an accurate generalisation. I have come to understand that people cannot be judged purely on their gender. Neither can they be judged by their religion or race. Using your family as a sample group is hardly a good study as they are genetically linked therefore will carry traits from one generation to the next.

Some people are complex, some people are simple. Some are selfish, some are caring towards others. Understandably I get offended at being judged by my sex. Wouldn't you?

ZEDEX: Your previous post is equally generalised. It's very easy to make such opinions based on our own brief experiences. That doesn't make them accurate.

I never said men are always wrong and women are always right.

Both sexes make mistakes but its how you handle them that makes men and women different.

Men allow women to change them perhaps because they want that, and yes women then moan because they have changed but saying sorry is a word that has the same meaning whatever.

Originally posted by Andy78
Until you have known every man, you cannot make an accurate generalisation. I have come to understand that people cannot be judged purely on their gender. Neither can they be judged by their religion or race. Using your family as a sample group is hardly a good study as they are genetically linked therefore will carry traits from one generation to the next.

Some people are complex, some people are simple. Some are selfish, some are caring towards others. Understandably I get offended at being judged by my sex. Wouldn't you

Yes, and consistently making bad choices in your menfolk is another pattern that tends to repeat itself.

How many times do really decent blokes have women crying on their shoulder about how all the men they go out with treat them badly, but they go on looking for the same sort of man as they always end up with.

I am always judged by my sex, I am female and people automatically make a judgement.

They also make a judgement when they ask what have I done for 23 years on an application form and when I put mum, they reply `oh`

Is that not making a judgement.

Let me change it for, all you males out ther, for all those I have come in contact with in my life 80% are selfish. Thats my view on those men I have met. I apologise to all those that felt I had put them into a catagory they felt was unfar as I did not know them..

Originally posted by rosie


Both sexes make mistakes but its how you handle them that makes men and women different.

yeah men say sorry and put it behind them, women bring it up months later!!!!!!!

Originally posted by rosie

Men allow women to change them perhaps because they want that,

Boll*cks, do we actually have a choice?, um yes I stand to be corrected maybe be we do... but then again anything for a quiet life and no earache!!!!!

Originally posted by rosie

Let me change it for, all you males out ther, for all those I have come in contact with in my life 80% are selfish. Thats my view on those men I have met. I apologise to all those that felt I had put them into a catagory they felt was unfar as I did not know them..

I'd go further than that.

I'd say very nearly 100% of people are selfish.

It depends how strict your definition of selfish is, and I'm using the strictest definition of the word.

Originally posted by Yodameister
I'd go further than that.

I'd say very nearly 100% of people are selfish.

It depends how strict your definition of selfish is, and I'm using the strictest definition of the word.

I agree, it's instinct to put yourself first, it's something to do with genetics.

Originally posted by nick2
I agree, it's instinct to put yourself first, it's something to do with genetics.

A little more technically your genes programme you to look after them!

Originally posted by Yodameister
A little more technically your genes programme you to look after them!

of course selfishness in a genetic way means having children and ensuring that they survice. Thus we are selfishly programmed to form family units and raise our children to the best of our ability. Which looks from an individuals point of view (or from the outside) as selflessness.

Rosie - I'm glad you've qualified it slightly. It's always best to realise that we rarely see the big picture and that any narrow stereotype we apply is invariably wrong.
I won't claim that there aren't selfish men and women, but neither do I think that all men or all women are like that.

Making a judgement about you based on your past occupation is probably sensible if you're looking for employment.

I say sorry when I'm wrong, although I do require a rigorous logical argument to convince me that i'm wrong.
That's probably the biggest source of disagreement between me and my SO, i argue logically and she argues passionatly, the different approach means that one will never convince the other.

I think the attitude "Men, they're all the same" is used as a subconcious justification to go for men who either are rich or are superficially best looking.

If you convince yourself that they are all b******s, then you might as well get yourself a rich b*****d.

Women think yourselves lucky! You only have to deal with men. We men have to BE men.

It really is truly horrific.

Originally posted by rosie
I am always judged by my sex, I am female and people automatically make a judgement.

They also make a judgement when they ask what have I done for 23 years on an application form and when I put mum, they reply `oh`

Is that not making a judgement.

Let me change it for, all you males out ther, for all those I have come in contact with in my life 80% are selfish. Thats my view on those men I have met. I apologise to all those that felt I had put them into a catagory they felt was unfar as I did not know them..

I can't say that I judge anyone by their sex. If I did then I must expect to be judged by mine.

I have also come across many selfish people in my time, but this doesn't seem to be gender specific. I just choose not to associate with such people.

From a psychological point of view there are qualitative differences between the sexes. There is a great deal of evidence that male and female brains are distinctly different from each other. Add to that the gender stereotyping we place on children from the day they are born and you can see why there are such great differences.

However, the argument that men are more selfish than women is generalising greatly. We are all selfish at times, and in a loving relationship these, in my opinion, should be seen as blips. Nobody is 100% perfect. Killerbabe has already said that she has been with the man in question for two years, is one act of selfishness really worth breaking up over? I don't care who you are with, you are always going to argue over something.

I think there would be something weird going on if you didn't argue with your partner.

The major difference between the sexes is that women invest more in each of their gamete cells (sperm for mean, eggs for women)

So from a biological point of view a woman has "invested" more in each offspring, so will be more inclined to put her children before herself than a man would be.

This is a generalisation, and in specific cases it may not pan out that way. As far as I am aware that is the major cause of all intra species differences between the sexes.

Well I will take it even further and say that 100% of people ARE selfish, and as biological beings we are incapable of being anything else but selfish.

People who seem selfless are perhaps a little more enlightened, having learned that acting in a selfless way can help you get what you want from life.

That's the way it is boys and girls, deep deep down, we all have self interest at heart (but that doesn't mean we have to be b*****ds to each other).

What puzzles me is why some on here are suggesting that being selfish (and / or male) is some how a bad thing.

Originally posted by Jamie
Well I will take it even further and say that 100% of people ARE selfish, and as biological beings we are incapable of being anything else but selfish.

To blame selfishness on biology is flawed. Many species show "altruistic behaviour", in that they do something for others at a cost of their own. This phenomenom has been studied intensively because it contradicts Darwinian predictions that we, as an animal species, will behave in a selfish manner to ensure our genes are passed on via reproduction. Altruism has been explained in that animals often live with or near their kin, many of which are have similar genes to their own. These animals will then behave unselfishley in order to ensure that if their exact genes are not passed on, then their kin's genes will.

Not sure if anyone's still following but this "altruistic behaviour" is shown beautifully in warning calls. Many animals make warning calls when a predator is near, which often results in them attracting the predator and being killed. However, it gives the rest of the group chance to escape, whereas without the warning call a large number of the group may be killed.

It's all very interesting, but my point is that to blame selfishness on some kind of flawed Darwin argument esentially excuses a very nasty trait. We are all selfish at times, because we all make mistakes. But there are those people who are always selfish, and I don't think you can excuse that through genetics. They are just nasty people. Pure and simple.

Originally posted by Lucy_Smith
It's all very interesting,

I agree with you there Lucy, this selfish / selfless thing is a very interesting topic, and I like the example you give in your post of the animal giving a warning call to save the tribe.

Perhaps the creature that gives the warning call, if he survives, gets 'brownie points' and advances his own status within the tribe, and if he didn't give the call when he was in a position to do so, maybe he would be made an outcast.

So on balance, maybe it's strategically BETTER FOR HIM to risk his life, and give out the warning call ...

----

In the human world, a situation where a parent gives up their own life to save their child, is the best example of selfless action I can think of.

Would a parent knowingly give up their own life?

They may RISK it, but in a situation where they're GUARANTEED to lose their own life, would they give it up?

----

Maybe they would go with whichever urge was strongest inside them?

a) Preserve their own life.
b) Preserve their own 'mark' in the gene pool of the human race.

When this urge is of some benefit to your own biological being, then you may call that selfish.

If it harms your own biological being, but is beneficial to those whom you have a vested interest in, then you may call it selfless action.

Both seem selfish reasons for action (you follow whichever urge inside yourself is the strongest). Maybe 'selfish' is not the correct word for this 'following of strongest urge' (in that case what is, anyone?).

Acting for the benefit of those around you, is I believe, ultimately in your own interest, and therefore selfish.

----

The kind of really nasty people that you say are selfish all the time, I think are just the same as anyone else, however they are not as enlightened to the fact that it serves their own self interest better if they behave in a more selfless way. When they start to grasp this, they'll change their behaviour accordingly.

I would give up my life to save that of my wife... she has no genetic tie to me and we have no kids... does that make me selfless?

Originally posted by DaBouncer
I would give up my life to save that of my wife... she has no genetic tie to me and we have no kids... does that make me selfless?

I dunno DaB!

Primal biological urges like staying alive, I think are very powerful things, and I am sure it would be no easy task when push came to shove, to set them aside and give up your own life to save a loved one.

Personally I don't think words are sufficient enough to describe the stirrings within out human hearts that motive us ...

Originally posted by DaBouncer
I would give up my life to save that of my wife... she has no genetic tie to me and we have no kids... does that make me selfless?

Everyone is capable of acts of "selfishness" and "selflessness".

As I have said before genes act to preserve themselves, they are not too bothered about the individual, thats more of a side effect.
Genes have effects on the way people act, they do not make the individual the personification of those acts.

Originally posted by Jamie
I dunno DaB!

Primal biological urges like staying alive, I think are very powerful things, and I am sure it would be no easy task when push came to shove, to set them aside and give up your own life to save a loved one.

Personally I don't think words are sufficient enough to describe the stirrings within out human hearts that motive us ...

All the argument about basic urges is well and good. But we are reasoning and self aware entities. We can override our insticts (and often do), we can decide to act based on many more factors than the balance of probability of injury.
There are numerous examples of people risking and sometimes loosing there own life to help another.
People dive into swollen rivers to try and rescue there pet dog, people give money to charity anonmously, people give up there time to help in a soup kitchen.
For some of these you might argue that they benefit from it as well, even if it's just in a feeling of goodness that they enjoy, but I think that's ultimately missing the point.

Cyclone makes a cogent point there regarding human ability to, in a sense, override instincts. In other words, he is arguing that as sentient , self aware, social actors we have the ability to formulate and act upon decisions. We have the 'agency' to do so.

So-called 'nature' and 'nurture' should not be seen as a duality. They work together, in a sense. As primates, we are subject to instincts- unlearned patterns of behaviour. Genes work together to produce certain dispositions in us. The mistake is to associate 'biological determinism' with inevitability. We may inherit a certain predisposition towards schizophrenia, for example, but that does not mean we should view the circumstance through the lens of a kind of 'genetic fatalism'. The schizophrenia may never manifest itself in our lifetime, if we are fortunate enough not to encounter the 'environmental' stimuli [for example, extreme levels of stress] that could 'trigger' the reaction. Genes, in simple terms, can be 'switched on' by environmental stimuli.

Regarding the thread, in the light of these observations, I would argue that the chemical testesterone plays a large part in male behaviour. That is not to say that men cannot, as Cyclone rightly suggests, control themselves. As he says, we are [usually...] 'self-aware and reasoning entitities', with agency. However, the great quantity of testesterone in males must play a significant part in causality. It is a very important variable in any discussion about contrasts in male and female behaviour.

Cyclone:

Sure we can override our instincts (and I recently found this out for myself when I exited an aircraft in flight).

People rescue their pet dog because they want to preserve the feelings they get from their relationship with the animal.

People also keep pets in quite bad conditions and caged up, not good for the animal, but it feeds their own emotional need to be a provider / keeper and have a pet.

People give money anonmously to charity because they believe doing so will score them points with 'god'.

Also, it generally does feel very good to help others (and I do all the time, it's a good thing and it makes me and them feel good).

I don't think I'm missing the point! There are many points and I'm just presenting one of them ...

I think ultimately, true selflessness is the pinnicle of selfisheness, and at some absolute level they're one in the same, but that's getting in to the realms of the esoteric and I know how much you'd love that mr Cyclone!

Maybe I am wrong though, what do I know!?

Looking at underlying motives and concious motives are two fundamentally different things.

Neither of them is particularly more valid than the other, they are just two different ways of looking at the same thing.

Its my belief that concious thought as most people understand it is a bit of an illusion. I reckon a good analogy is the user interface of your PC, its not really "how" your PC works, but it is a graphical and more understandable way of it telling you what it is really doing.

Originally posted by Yodameister
Looking at underlying motives and concious motives are two fundamentally different things.

Neither of them is particularly more valid than the other, they are just two different ways of looking at the same thing.

Its my belief that concious thought as most people understand it is a bit of an illusion. I reckon a good analogy is the user interface of your PC, its not really "how" your PC works, but it is a graphical and more understandable way of it telling you what it is really doing.

That's a nice analogy Yoda.

I like to think of it in terms of layer of abstraction upon layer of abstraction ...

What you see on screen (GUI / windows) is a result of software (OS / applications) running ... which in turn are an abstraction ... it's down to electrical current running through your motherboard, processor and RAM ... and you could take the analogy further ... but then ... these windows look pretty real to me.

sometimes we might see something that makes us feel bad. Despite that being nothing to do with us we act to make it better.

You'd argue that that action is selfish because it's taken to alleviate the bad feeling in ourselves.

The recipient of course wouldn't think it was selfish at all.

If you treat behaviour as a black box problem (ie no investigation of internal state) then selflessness exists.
If you treat it as open box then you can in the end always argue it down to being selfish.
I prefer the first technique as being a more useful technique to apply in the real world.

lets just live life! :)

Originally posted by Cyclone
sometimes we might see something that makes us feel bad. Despite that being nothing to do with us we act to make it better.

You'd argue that that action is selfish because it's taken to alleviate the bad feeling in ourselves.

The recipient of course wouldn't think it was selfish at all.

If you treat behaviour as a black box problem (ie no investigation of internal state) then selflessness exists.
If you treat it as open box then you can in the end always argue it down to being selfish.
I prefer the first technique as being a more useful technique to apply in the real world.

Whatever is the most useful technique, is the best, I agree.

I think you can use the word 'selfish' in different ways, and I've said before that it can have different connotations and meaning.

In the sense that our actions are triggered to satisfy some need inside us, yes, it can be argued that there is selfishness in all human action.

In the (more everyday) sense of, are we just out for 'number #1' or do we have a sense of community and helping / sharing with other people, then yes, we can be selfless.

However such selflessness, does I feel, greatly benefit the giver ...

Anyway ... I agree with ZX ... let's just live life! :)

I would tend to agree with Cyclone in that I believe we are more capable than animals to overcome our biological urges to apparantly be selfish. For a start we are the only species on the planet with a cerebral cortex. Our brains have developed immensly which has resulted in us living in a social world, and we understand that in a social world, selfishness is not usually a rewarded trait.

Of course the behaviourists would argue that whether a person behaves selfishly or unselfishly is all down to reinforcement. If a person is rewarded for behaving unselfishly (whether it be with social praise, respect from others, whatever) than they are more likely to repeat this behaviour. And the same is true of selfishness, in essence those who have learnt that being selfish pays will be selfish again.

Not something I neccessarily agree with but another side of the argument. Going back to the point of this thread, I still don't think men or women are more selfish than each other. I certainly have never heard of any link between testosterone and selfishness. And that wouldn't be a viable way of saying that men are more selfish than women anyway, because women also have testosterone in the bodies.

Lucy,
My point is that men have an excess of testesterone in their bodies, which goes some way to explaining selfish aggression, and 'urges to primacy'...

What exactly do you mean by "selfish aggression"?

Lucy,
I am thinking of things such as rape, violence to the person, warlike tendencies etc. Many Evolutionary Psychologists such as Tooby, Lynn etc make this point.

By the way, your previous posts are very well written, informative and interesting.

Men - can't live with us, can't shoot us!!! :D :D

Hee hee thanks. I try to make them sound that way ;)

I am aware of the evolutionary argument but from the research I have read I am inclined to believe that aggression is more socially based. I've just completed a research project on aggression generally and found that the way that you define aggression is really important. For example, we found males were more physically aggressive, but we also looked at a measure of indirect aggression (gossiping, spreading rumours etc) and found that females were more aggressive than males on this measure. Some would argue of course that gossiping and such is not aggression, or is not the same as physical aggression. We, like others, argued however that females are just as aggressive as males, but that social norms has led to them expressing this aggression in a more "acceptable" form. All very interesting. It of course just comes back down to the whole nature/nurture debate that psychology never seems to be able to escape from!

Anyway, sorry for going massively off topic people :blush:

Don't apologise, Lucy, this is good quality stuff. I take your point re definitions. However, I refer to physically assaultative behaviour such as rape, violence against the person. Human and lower primate females are not as aggressive as males in this sense of the word.

Your point about the functional, regulatory nature of societal norms and values is interesting. Yes, in most cultures, females are subject to the inculcation of norms and values by processes of socialisation which associate 'feminine' behaviour with nurturing, caring, yielding behaviour. Maybe socialisation does work to constrain female aggressiveness, or to channel it into 'acceptable' forms such as humour, gossip etc. I still think, however, that if women had this excess of testesterone, we would see much more resistance to the process of canalisation [where girl infants are directed towards 'feminine' playthings etc] and socialisation. Twenty five years or so of research into behavioural genetics seems to suggest that we cannot rule out the testesterone factor in male, physical, aggression.

The female of the species is more deadly than the male.

Or, so the song says.

Originally posted by nick2
The female of the species is more deadly than the male.

Or, so the song says.

so god-damn true tho!! :hihi: :hihi:

Thankyou, Richard Dawkins...

Lucy & Timo

I found your posts on this really interesting and informative.

I am in my second year of an OU degree (social sciences) and have studied some of the subjects you have touched on in your replies.

I am not yet confident enough in my knowledge to fully join in your debate, so instead I thought I would post to let you know how much I was enjoying it.

As for nature/nuture, I don't think we will ever have a one way or another conclusion. From my own brief study I think that both have a part to play and it very much depends on which comes out the strongest in a child's informative years.

Loopy Lou,
Thanks for the kind words. Remember, though, that this forum is for everybody. You must not feel as if you can't join in. You are entitled to have your say as much as anybody else.
By the way, I bet you are studying DD201 aren't you?!

Yeah, don't let not knowing what your talking about stop you, I don't.

At least you are genuinely funny, Nick!

What rubbish, Jamie! Men who are b'stard are not being honest to themselves or anyone else. Woman being attracted to horrible blokes because they like being treated badly is nonsense. A woman suffering from low self esteem for whatever reason may chose a man who has no repect for her and treats her like dirt simply because she thinks that is the best she can hope for.

Surely you feel better about yourself if you are kind and considerate to others. Whether you belive in fate or not being a git will come back on you. Perhaps you will even end up resenting yourself and that isn't being 'true' to yourself is it?

Originally posted by gularscute
I'm getting bored now of listening to the kind of women who crawl over 50 good men to get to a *******... and then complain about what ******** men are. Try dating decent men and see if your opinion changes. Decent men should be standing up for women who are down trodden by a few idiotic ******** who think they are the dogs b??????s not lying down to be crawled over. Don't turn into a git because a few women are stupid enough to be attracted to them - those women aren't worth bothering with either!

Tulip, IMO you are talking twadle. You obviously haven't read all the contributions on this subject. A more well-informed and constructed post would be appreciated ....

I'm sorry you feel that way. I have read the posts. I was responding directly to a comment made by a certain individual. If you look at what I've written previously, I'm not 'man bashing' at all. I know through talking to men who say they hate it when they are in a group of blokes who make sexual comments to woman who do nothing to encourage them but oyher men feel embarrassed to make a stand against their group for fear of being ridiculed. I have had some dreadful experieces with leacherous men when I was younger (I'm more confident now and feel able to stand up for myself)

I also think the posts have got tangled up with other posts! I posted stuff early that had to with the topic, which seems to have been lost in a tangled web of other topics!

Good to hear you now feel more confident about standing up for yourself Tulip.

I don't make rude comments or remarks about ladies when i am out, but I have heard comments. It's usually 'beer talk' and from guys in groups - they wouldn't say it if they were on their own. But equally, I've been up town and you should hear some of the stuff you 'ladies' say - wow! so much more offensive and direct. So, horses for courses - as they say.

I agree with you women can be horrible and really belittle men. Which ever side it comes from it's plain old bullying and thats unacceptable. It can be very intimidating for someone male or female to be singled out. xQUOTE]Originally posted by Monroe
Good to hear you now feel more confident about standing up for yourself Tulip.

I don't make rude comments or remarks about ladies when i am out, but I have heard comments. It's usually 'beer talk' and from guys in groups - they wouldn't say it if they were on their own. But equally, I've been up town and you should hear some of the stuff you 'ladies' say - wow! so much more offensive and direct. So, horses for courses - as they say. [/QUOTE]

When I was younger I used to try to remember this quote "I regard men as a pleasant pastime but no dependable than the british weather" but I think I prefer msbehavin's "next"