News Story Here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3176982.stm)

I reckon in general Catholics in the UK have their heads screwed on and despite their faith would seek to protect themselves.

However - how clued up are developing countries? Isn't faith in religion all they have?

Moon

To save clicking the link ;), the story starts with...

"The Catholic Church has been accused of telling people in countries with high rates of HIV that condoms do not protect against the deadly virus. The claims are made in a Panorama programme called Sex and the Holy City to be screened on BBC One on Sunday."

:)

They must have shares with some of the HIV drug companies - got to think of the profits first you know.

Originally posted by Moon Maiden
However - how clued up are developing countries?

Moon

Not very, it would seem. I read that one of the reasons for the AIDS epidemic in Africa is the belief that HIV sufferers will be cured if they rape an infant :confused:

Originally posted by Abby
...is the belief that HIV sufferers will be cured if they rape an infant :confused:
:o :( Where exactly did you hear that? A source would be useful.

I am not sure which is more frightening now :( :o

Moon

Originally posted by Geoff
:o :( Where exactly did you hear that? A source would be useful.

I did not want to supply a link, as it's such a nasty subject, but here are two of the many I found with a quick google search

Guardian, June 29, 2003
http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,987336,00.html

Science in Africa
http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2002/april/virgin.htm

Originally posted by Abby
Not very, it would seem. I read that one of the reasons for the AIDS epidemic in Africa is the belief that HIV sufferers will be cured if they rape an infant :confused:

Yeah, I too saw a programme about this. Was pretty distrubing to say the least. Can't remember for the life of me what it was called though?! :confused:

Originally posted by Abby
I did not want to supply a link, as it's such a nasty subject, but here are two of the many I found with a quick google searchSure I can appreciate that, but it's always a good idea to back up such a shocking statement with a source.

As you said, this is a particulary nasty subject, so lets try and focus on the original topic of condoms and HIV as opposed to being side tracked in to baby rape etc. :|

Originally posted by Geoff
Sure I can appreciate that, but it's always a good idea to back up such a shocking statement with a source.
Yeah, that's why I sometimes seem picky.

Catholics annoy me though, would it be better for young people to catch Aids and get pregnant just because they don't believe in contraception? I suppose they could argue that people shouldn't have sex outside of marriage. However I believe this belief is outdated and in this day and age it is impractical, especially with modern youth culture.

It's acually quite sickening that Catholics would rather people catch Aids in Africa than use contraceptives. Are they trying to encourage the spread of the disease?

Originally posted by Sidla
Are they trying to encourage the spread of the disease?

If the disease to which you refer is catholicism then the answer is yes.

The religious people in my place of work were putting flyers in EVERYONE'S mail box trying to get them to come and see some Australian chap perform miracles. They believe these money grabbing evangelists but will not even consider the theory of evolution! With this level of brain washing from religious groups in a so called developed country, the poor people who have been issued this advise are going to believe it! The church has allot to answer for.

Originally posted by neeeeeeeeeek
The religious people...
:lol: Can you be more descriptive?

I think we have been through the 'I hate religion' debate enough, but I do feel sorry for the poor old catholics. Or maybe that should be 'rich' old catholics.

I mean, how do you expect a 'Chairman' to keep order when he has to be propped up every morning?:D

Apparently the Pope's up for the Nobel Peace Prize.

Can life get any more bizarre?

Originally posted by cosywolf
Apparently the Pope's up for the Nobel Peace Prize.

Can life get any more bizarre?

So is Bono (of U2 fame).!!!

Bizarre enough for you??

Nomme

Piece of what?

Originally posted by cosywolf
Apparently the Pope's up for the Nobel Peace Prize.

Can life get any more bizarre?
Didn't get it though, thankfully.

Nobel Peace Prize winner (http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_827535.html)

Thought I would find the oldest thread I could which I posted on and this was it!

The subject does not seems to have progressed much in 7 years but the pope has been thinking about it!

:)

I thought I'd seen something in the news recently about a change in stance on this very issue by the church...

Not very, it would seem. I read that one of the reasons for the AIDS epidemic in Africa is the belief that HIV sufferers will be cured if they rape an infant :confused:

that's all changed, in Africa at least. they did that in the 90s, found out it doesn't work, then started using rubber. and it's working. as is evidenced by the new cases of aids in many African countries going down. on the flip of that cases are rising in the west. but that's just because people think it's a 'developing world' thing.

the Vatican is being irresponsible though, even with the 'only male prostitutes can...' thing.

that's all changed, in Africa at least. they did that in the 90s, found out it doesn't work, then started using rubber. and it's working. as is evidenced by the new cases of aids in many African countries going down. on the flip of that cases are rising in the west. but that's just because people think it's a 'developing world' thing.

the Vatican is being irresponsible though, even with the 'only male prostitutes can...' thing.

In South Africa the myth that sex with a virgin will cure one of HIV/AIDS still prevails which is why infants and children are raped. The use of condoms by black Africans in South Africa is very low, as far as I'm aware. I'm not sure about other African countries. This is not helped by the idiot president having sex with prostitutes then taking a shower post-coitus as a preventative measure.:roll:

Neither showering nor praying will have any affect at all on whether you contract HIV after having unprotected sex with someone that already has it.

Thought I would find the oldest thread I could which I posted on and this was it!

The subject does not seems to have progressed much in 7 years but the pope has been thinking about it!

:)

Wrong religion. - Are you thinking of Buddhism?

When this thread was started the Pope was John Paul ll.

He's dead.

The present Pope is a different person. He's not the Dalai Lama. He's not a reincarnation.

Benedict XVl's thoughts do not follow on from those of his predecessor.:hihi:

If people are too stupid to listen to what the Vatican says and follow it to the word, that's their fault.

Neither showering nor praying will have any affect at all on whether you contract HIV after having unprotected sex with someone that already has it.Well, it might. If you shower in Domestos.

Know what the single largest agency is in Africa fighting AIDS and helping the victims?

The Catholic Church.

Know what the single largest agency is in Africa fighting AIDS and helping the victims?

The Catholic Church.

Well, since the teachings of the Catholic Church regarding contraception have been a causal factor in the Aids epidemic in Africa, its only fair that the Church does something to help the victims.

Well, since the teachings of the Catholic Church regarding contraception have been a causal factor in the Aids epidemic in Africa, its only fair that the Church does something to help the victims.

Success of stopping the transmission of AIDS with condom use = 90%


Success of stopping the transmission of AIDS via abstinence
= 100%

Success of stopping the transmission of AIDS with condom use = 90%


Success of stopping the transmission of AIDS via abstinence
= 100%

Your calculations take no account of human nature (the Catholic Church does take account of human nature, but only by seeking to transform it, through the imposition of ridiculous rules, into something it is not)

Your calculations take no account of human nature (the Catholic Church does take account of human nature, but only by seeking to transform it, through the imposition of ridiculous rules, into something it is not)

then how do you explain the devout catholic population of The Philippines having a great deal of success with abstinence as a method of countering the spread of AIDS?

MANILA, Philippines—Despite her recent disagreement with Roman Catholic clergymen on the distribution of condoms to fight HIV/AIDS, Health Secretary Esperanza Cabral recognizes the important role of faith-based groups in fighting the disease.

“These groups play a very important role. They can influence change in behavior in society. And behavior change is the way to prevention of AIDS,” Cabral told reporters.

She added that despite her campaign to distribute condoms in an effort to stem the spread of HIV/AIDS, “abstinence is the best prevention.”

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/metro/view/20100331-261838/Health-chief-agrees-abstinence-is-best-defense-vs-HIVAIDS-but

20 years into the pandemic there is no evidence that more condoms leads to less AIDS," stated Dr. Edward C. Green of Harvard's Center for Population and Development Studies. Citing data on condom availability in many African counties, Green went on to say that "we are not seeing what we expected: that higher levels of condom availability result in lower HIV prevalence." Dr. Norman Hearst of the University of California San Francisco supported this analysis with statistics on Kenya, Botswana, and other countries, which show an increasingly alarming pattern of increased condom sale correlation with rising HIV prevalence by year.

In a New York Times interview, Dr Edward C. Green, Senior Research Scientist at the Harvard Center for Population and Development Studies , cited evidence that "partner reduction," promoted as mutual faithfulness, is the single most effective way of reducing the spread of AIDS.... there is also a troubling suspicion among a growing number of scientists who support the ABC model that certain opponents may simply be AIDS profiteers, more interested in protecting their incomes than battling the disease.

(http://www.globalhealth.harvard.edu/hcpds/books/greenbook.html)

then how do you explain the devout catholic population of The Philippines having a great deal of success with abstinence as a method of countering the spread of AIDS?

MANILA, Philippines—Despite her recent disagreement with Roman Catholic clergymen on the distribution of condoms to fight HIV/AIDS, Health Secretary Esperanza Cabral recognizes the important role of faith-based groups in fighting the disease.

“These groups play a very important role. They can influence change in behavior in society. And behavior change is the way to prevention of AIDS,” Cabral told reporters.

She added that despite her campaign to distribute condoms in an effort to stem the spread of HIV/AIDS, “abstinence is the best prevention.”

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/metro/view/20100331-261838/Health-chief-agrees-abstinence-is-best-defense-vs-HIVAIDS-but

20 years into the pandemic there is no evidence that more condoms leads to less AIDS," stated Dr. Edward C. Green of Harvard's Center for Population and Development Studies. Citing data on condom availability in many African counties, Green went on to say that "we are not seeing what we expected: that higher levels of condom availability result in lower HIV prevalence." Dr. Norman Hearst of the University of California San Francisco supported this analysis with statistics on Kenya, Botswana, and other countries, which show an increasingly alarming pattern of increased condom sale correlation with rising HIV prevalence by year.

In a New York Times interview, Dr Edward C. Green, Senior Research Scientist at the Harvard Center for Population and Development Studies , cited evidence that "partner reduction," promoted as mutual faithfulness, is the single most effective way of reducing the spread of AIDS.... there is also a troubling suspicion among a growing number of scientists who support the ABC model that certain opponents may simply be AIDS profiteers, more interested in protecting their incomes than battling the disease.

(http://www.globalhealth.harvard.edu/hcpds/books/greenbook.html)

Statisticians would no doubt have a field day in exposing the flaws in the tendentious arguments presented above. In particular, the central argument appears to be that abstinence is a better preventative measure de facto than the use of condoms. If you read the quotation above, what is being referred to is the connection between condom availability and the incidence of Aids. Of course, if people do not use condoms, then they will indeed be useless. But the same applies also to the practice of abstinence, i.e., that if abstinence id not practised, then it is also useless. Nor, of course, should it be assumed that what works in the Philippines will work in Africa (indeed, if if does work in the Philippines). Beware of false inferences, particularly when they are being made by those with ideological axes to grind.

I thought everyone already knew that.:roll: Dont tell me that they think body washing will stop aids !!:roll:

This is what the guy above said. Read his post.

This is what the guy above said. Read his post.

Yes, I just did.Cant believe it !:roll:

Statisticians would no doubt have a field day in exposing the flaws in the tendentious arguments presented above. In particular, the central argument appears to be that abstinence is a better preventative measure de facto than the use of condoms.

Not my argument.

The WHO:

World Health Organization. The context of young people's sexual relations. Progr Reprod Health Res 2000;53:2-3.


Uganda at one time had the highest rate of HIV/AIDS in the world. Starting in the mid to late 1980s, their government instituted a program to teach abstinence before marriage and fidelity to one's partner afterwards. They only reluctantly advised condoms for high risk groups (like prostitutes) whom they knew would not accept the other two approaches. Billboards, radio announcements, print ads, and school programs all promoted the virtues of abstinence and fidelity to prevent HIV/AIDS.

The results were astonishing. In 1991, the prevalence rate of HIV was 15%. By 2001, it had dropped to 5%. It was the biggest HIV infection reduction in world history. Among pregnant women, the drop was even more dramatic (as reported by CNS News, January 13, 2003). In 1991, 21.2% of expecting mothers tested positive for HIV. By 2001, the number had plummeted to 6.2%. Compare this with the 2001 numbers from Kenya (15%), Zimbabwe (32%), and Botswana (38%). All three countries focus on condom distribution, and all three countries continue to see their rates rise.



http://members.shaw.ca/jrlmcrae/church/preventingAIDS.html

Not my argument.

The WHO:

World Health Organization. The context of young people's sexual relations. Progr Reprod Health Res 2000;53:2-3.


Uganda at one time had the highest rate of HIV/AIDS in the world. Starting in the mid to late 1980s, their government instituted a program to teach abstinence before marriage and fidelity to one's partner afterwards. They only reluctantly advised condoms for high risk groups (like prostitutes) whom they knew would not accept the other two approaches. Billboards, radio announcements, print ads, and school programs all promoted the virtues of abstinence and fidelity to prevent HIV/AIDS.

The results were astonishing. In 1991, the prevalence rate of HIV was 15%. By 2001, it had dropped to 5%. It was the biggest HIV infection reduction in world history. Among pregnant women, the drop was even more dramatic (as reported by CNS News, January 13, 2003). In 1991, 21.2% of expecting mothers tested positive for HIV. By 2001, the number had plummeted to 6.2%. Compare this with the 2001 numbers from Kenya (15%), Zimbabwe (32%), and Botswana (38%). All three countries focus on condom distribution, and all three countries continue to see their rates rise.



http://members.shaw.ca/jrlmcrae/church/preventingAIDS.html

I suggest you look at the report below in full, which exposes the comforting Catholic, doctrine-driven, myth that the decline in the prevalence of AIDs in Uganda is primarily due to abstinence. Indeed, the abstinence doctrine, as the report mentions, could even be a cause of the recent increase in Aids in Uganda.

http://www.avert.org/aids-uganda.htm

I suggest you look at the report below in full, which exposes the comforting Catholic, doctrine-driven, myth that the decline in the prevalence of AIDs in Uganda is primarily due to abstinence. Indeed, the abstinence doctrine, as the report mentions, could even be a cause of the recent increase in Aids in Uganda.

http://www.avert.org/aids-uganda.htm

That's an old discredited myth.

A cursory glance at the incidence of AIDS in various African countries suggests that things are more complex than some of these Vatican-attackers allow. According to the AIDS charity Avert, southern African countries have the highest national adult HIV prevalence rate (7). The two worst-hit countries (not only in Africa, but the world) are Swaziland, where the rate is 38.8 per cent, and Botswana, where it is 37.3 per cent. Yet these countries have low numbers of practising Catholics: in Swaziland, between 10 and 20 per cent of the population is Catholic, while 40 per cent are Zionist (a blend of Christianity and indigenous ancestral worship) and 10 per cent are Muslim; in Botswana fewer than 5 per cent are Catholic, with 85 per cent of the population subscribing to ancient indigenous beliefs.

In South Africa, Avert says the HIV infection rate is around 20 per cent. South Africa is one of Africa's more secularised nations; around 68 per cent of the population describe themselves as Christian, but only around 7 per cent of the population are Catholic. Do the Pope's and Cardinal Trujillo's silly statements on condoms have a hold over countries such as Swaziland, Botswana and South Africa?

Millions of Catholics around the world ignore Catholic doctrine every day
One idea that these anti-Pope radicals refuse to entertain is that perhaps some Africans choose not to use condoms. As Avert claims, 'condoms are not without their drawbacks, especially in the context of a stable partnership where pregnancy is desired' (7). In underdeveloped countries it is often important to have large families, so that there are more individuals who can work and take care of their parents as they get older and can no longer work. People in these countries may simply desire to have more children, even if that involves the risk of having a child with HIV.

It perhaps isn't surprising that this possibility is not spoken about, considering that some of those attacking the Vatican's stance on condoms seem to see the problem in Africa as one of 'too many people' and the solution as condoms for all. Michela Wrong attacks the Vatican's 'sheer irresponsibility [in] rejecting population control, on a continent stalked by famine and stunted by malnutrition, where each year brings another 10million mouths to feed' (8). Perhaps the lack of condom-use is not a consequence of Africans being in thrall to Vatican edicts, but because they are equally not in thrall to the population control lobby, those NGOs, charities and commentators who would have us believe that Africa's problem is primarily one of there being too many black babies around. If it is absurd for the Vatican to depict the condom as evil, it is equally absurd for others to describe it as Africa's saviour.

No doubt the Catholic Church has a malign influence in some areas, and religion is often more prevalent in poverty-stricken parts. But millions of Catholics around the world ignore Catholic doctrine every day, on contraception, abortion, sex before marriage, sex outside of marriage - and not only in Western Europe and the USA. A recent survey found that 90 per cent of the populations in Mexico and Brazil - two devout Catholic countries - support sex education for children under 14 (much to the fury of the Vatican). Why should Africans be any different?

Apparently, we are told, therein lies the rub - Africans are not as clued up as the rest of us and therefore are more likely to believe the lies that the rest of us can see through. Independent columnist Johann Hari writes of lies about condoms being 'proclaimed from pulpits in rural African churches where illiterate villagers often had no other source of information'; Michela Wrong says Africans believe what the men in dresses tell them because 'the continent is still overwhelmingly patriarchal'; Polly Toynbee writes of the 'helpless third world poor who die for their misplaced faith' (9).

Whisper it: Africans are gullible, fickle, easily led astray by wicked men and incapable of working out for themselves what a condom does and doesn't do. Indeed, the only reason you could believe the fantastically simplistic idea that Vatican edict = AIDS in Africa is if you consider Africans to be little more than automatons (or God's little children) who do as they are told. Yet Africans do many things (such as sleeping with prostitutes, as Michela Wrong salaciously reminds us) that Vatican officials frown upon. It turns out that some of the Vatican's critics have prejudices as objectionable as those of Vatican cronies.

These hollow attacks on the Pope are merely the flipside of the hollow canonisation of the Pope that is taking place elsewhere. Where the media and political and faith leaders have made the Pope into a symbol of goodness, by avoiding any difficult debate about what he stood for, so the other side has made him into a symbol of evil, without really interrogating the Vatican's impact in Africa or elsewhere today. Both sides have made the Pope into something he was not, in order to peddle their own ideas and prejudices.

http://www.spiked-online.com/articles/0000000CA993.htm

That's an old discredited myth.

A cursory glance at the incidence of AIDS in various African countries suggests that things are more complex than some of these Vatican-attackers allow. According to the AIDS charity Avert, southern African countries have the highest national adult HIV prevalence rate (7). The two worst-hit countries (not only in Africa, but the world) are Swaziland, where the rate is 38.8 per cent, and Botswana, where it is 37.3 per cent. Yet these countries have low numbers of practising Catholics: in Swaziland, between 10 and 20 per cent of the population is Catholic, while 40 per cent are Zionist (a blend of Christianity and indigenous ancestral worship) and 10 per cent are Muslim; in Botswana fewer than 5 per cent are Catholic, with 85 per cent of the population subscribing to ancient indigenous beliefs.

In South Africa, Avert says the HIV infection rate is around 20 per cent. South Africa is one of Africa's more secularised nations; around 68 per cent of the population describe themselves as Christian, but only around 7 per cent of the population are Catholic. Do the Pope's and Cardinal Trujillo's silly statements on condoms have a hold over countries such as Swaziland, Botswana and South Africa?

Millions of Catholics around the world ignore Catholic doctrine every day
One idea that these anti-Pope radicals refuse to entertain is that perhaps some Africans choose not to use condoms. As Avert claims, 'condoms are not without their drawbacks, especially in the context of a stable partnership where pregnancy is desired' (7). In underdeveloped countries it is often important to have large families, so that there are more individuals who can work and take care of their parents as they get older and can no longer work. People in these countries may simply desire to have more children, even if that involves the risk of having a child with HIV.

It perhaps isn't surprising that this possibility is not spoken about, considering that some of those attacking the Vatican's stance on condoms seem to see the problem in Africa as one of 'too many people' and the solution as condoms for all. Michela Wrong attacks the Vatican's 'sheer irresponsibility [in] rejecting population control, on a continent stalked by famine and stunted by malnutrition, where each year brings another 10million mouths to feed' (8). Perhaps the lack of condom-use is not a consequence of Africans being in thrall to Vatican edicts, but because they are equally not in thrall to the population control lobby, those NGOs, charities and commentators who would have us believe that Africa's problem is primarily one of there being too many black babies around. If it is absurd for the Vatican to depict the condom as evil, it is equally absurd for others to describe it as Africa's saviour.

No doubt the Catholic Church has a malign influence in some areas, and religion is often more prevalent in poverty-stricken parts. But millions of Catholics around the world ignore Catholic doctrine every day, on contraception, abortion, sex before marriage, sex outside of marriage - and not only in Western Europe and the USA. A recent survey found that 90 per cent of the populations in Mexico and Brazil - two devout Catholic countries - support sex education for children under 14 (much to the fury of the Vatican). Why should Africans be any different?

Apparently, we are told, therein lies the rub - Africans are not as clued up as the rest of us and therefore are more likely to believe the lies that the rest of us can see through. Independent columnist Johann Hari writes of lies about condoms being 'proclaimed from pulpits in rural African churches where illiterate villagers often had no other source of information'; Michela Wrong says Africans believe what the men in dresses tell them because 'the continent is still overwhelmingly patriarchal'; Polly Toynbee writes of the 'helpless third world poor who die for their misplaced faith' (9).

Whisper it: Africans are gullible, fickle, easily led astray by wicked men and incapable of working out for themselves what a condom does and doesn't do. Indeed, the only reason you could believe the fantastically simplistic idea that Vatican edict = AIDS in Africa is if you consider Africans to be little more than automatons (or God's little children) who do as they are told. Yet Africans do many things (such as sleeping with prostitutes, as Michela Wrong salaciously reminds us) that Vatican officials frown upon. It turns out that some of the Vatican's critics have prejudices as objectionable as those of Vatican cronies.

These hollow attacks on the Pope are merely the flipside of the hollow canonisation of the Pope that is taking place elsewhere. Where the media and political and faith leaders have made the Pope into a symbol of goodness, by avoiding any difficult debate about what he stood for, so the other side has made him into a symbol of evil, without really interrogating the Vatican's impact in Africa or elsewhere today. Both sides have made the Pope into something he was not, in order to peddle their own ideas and prejudices.

http://www.spiked-online.com/articles/0000000CA993.htm

Why not try putting together an argument of your own instead of cutting and pasting farrago after farrago of tendentious drivel? No amount of spin and specious reasoning from the Catholic church and its supporters can discredit the fact that condoms are an effective barrier against Aids, if people use them. The opposition of the Church to the use of condoms derives not from considerations of effectiveness, but from the absurdity of doctrine.

No amount of spin and specious reasoning from the Catholic church and its supporters can discredit the fact that condoms are an effective barrier against Aids, if people use them. .

Would you use a parachute if you were told they're effective 90% of the time?



The church doctrine works better than condoms because the instructions of the church guarantee AIDS will not be transmitted.

Condoms do not offer this guarantee.

Thought I would find the oldest thread I could which I posted on and this was it!

The subject does not seems to have progressed much in 7 years but the pope has been thinking about it!

:)
gonna say, this must be the oldest thread ever???
even geoff posted in it

In South Africa the myth that sex with a virgin will cure one of HIV/AIDS still prevails which is why infants and children are raped. The use of condoms by black Africans in South Africa is very low, as far as I'm aware. I'm not sure about other African countries. This is not helped by the idiot president having sex with prostitutes then taking a shower post-coitus as a preventative measure.:roll:

still lower than it should be but much better than it was. and the incidence of rape for aids cure is going down rapidly. you're right, though, some nut who happens to be president does that and the publicity it gains makes it look worse than it is. new case are falling. we'll get there.

Success of stopping the transmission of AIDS with condom use = 90%


Success of stopping the transmission of AIDS via abstinence
= 100%

this, sorry to say, is a non statement. if you find 100 people not having sex, obviously they'll all not get HIV from sex coz they're not having sex.

truth is, people do have sex. and though the church etc preach people say they listen, but for the most part don't. there's no denying that condoms are doing much more to stop the spread than abstinence.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/vatican-relents-on-condom-use-marking-major-policy-change.html

update on policy since thread started in 2003