I have become very cynical about peoplewho claim dole and sit on there arse quite happy to live of us tax payers. I want to make it clear in my own mind how much people get while being on the dole, as its a long time since I was on it (after graduating).

How much do single parents get and how much do they get for each child?

Single parent

Income support - Lone Parent
[list=1]£32.90 per week (Under 18: Usual rate)
£43.25 per week (Under 18: higher rate payable in specific circumstances)
£54.65 per week (Over 18 )
[/list=1]

Child Benefit - Lone Parent
[list=1]£17.55 per week (first child)
£10.75 per week (each subsequent child)[/list=1]

Lot of detail there DB, nice one.

Just for my benefit, no pun intended, can you also explain the difference between job seekers allowance and income support? AFAIK
a] jsa is only payable for a limited period and income support is available whether you are working or not.
b] There is no longer such a thing as 'dole'
c] 'scummy scroungers' would get the same amount of allowances whether they were working or not

Care to correct my, probably incorrect, assumptions as you seem to be the man in the know?

And I quote:

Jobseekers allowance is a benefit for men and women under the state retirement age who are not working, or are working on average less than 16 hrs per week.

Eligible customers must be acyively seeking work, capable of work and available for work.

There are two types of Jobseeker's allowance:
National Insurance Contributions-based
Income-based

Income Support can be claimed by people aged 16 or over who are resident in Great Britain and whose income and capital are below a certain level as long as they are not working on average less than 16 hours per week (24 hrs for a partner). From October 2003 Income support will no longer be payable to customers aged 60 or over.

Income support is usually paid to customers who are:
sick and unavailable for work
disabled
a lone parent
in receipt of or have underlying entitlement to Carer's allowance.
This list is not exhaustive.

Payment is made up of personal allowances, premiums and money for certain housing costs, including mortgage interest.

These are the very basic allowances though, now add on all the expenses that people who work have to pay but those who get benefits don't and I bet you get a figure that would surprise many of you.

Originally posted by Mo
These are the very basic allowances though, now add on all the expenses that people who work have to pay but those who get benefits don't and I bet you get a figure that would surprise many of you.
These allowances do not include Housing Benefit and Council Tax benefit... this is true Mo!

Originally posted by Mo
These are the very basic allowances though, now add on all the expenses that people who work have to pay but those who get benefits don't and I bet you get a figure that would surprise many of you.
No, it wouldn't surprise me if that's the amount the state determines people need to live. What does suprise me is that so many people work for employers who don't pay a living wage that the state has to make up the difference. I'd be interested in seeing how much more we the tax-payers subsidise business compared with how much we pay to support the so-called underclass.

Originally posted by max
No, it wouldn't surprise me if that's the amount the state determines people need to live. What does suprise me is that so many people work for employers who don't pay a living wage that the state has to make up the difference. I'd be interested in seeing how much more we the tax-payers subsidise business compared with how much we pay to support the so-called underclass.

The big businesses who pay such low wages that the Government has to support these people with family tax credits is disgusting. These big companies should be disgraced and exposed.

.. and let's not forget that generally people on IS or JSA do not have to pay anything for council tax, rent, perscription charges, dental treatment and eye tests.

They can also use vouchers towards things like glasses and can claim travel expenses (e.g. for hospital visits).

They can also be entitled to cold weather payments and, milk tokens and get help with cost like funeral expenses and some essential items (through the Social Fund).

Originally posted by max
No, it wouldn't surprise me if that's the amount the state determines people need to live. What does suprise me is that so many people work for employers who don't pay a living wage that the state has to make up the difference. I'd be interested in seeing how much more we the tax-payers subsidise business compared with how much we pay to support the so-called underclass.

I agree Max the state shouldn't be subsidising employers who are paying poverty wages but this is not what I'm saying. In fact I would make an argument that the amount the minimum wage is set at is a joke.

What I am saying is that when considering how much the unemployed get you need to look at the complete picture, taking into account all the other things they get for free

Originally posted by Mo
I agree Max the state shouldn't be subsidising employers who are paying poverty wages but this is not what I'm saying. In fact I would make an argument that the amount the minimum wage is set at is a joke.

What I am saying is that when considering how much the unemployed get you need to look at the complete picture, taking into account all the other things they get for free

My point is that that is what the state deems the minimum that people need to live on. As for the 'extras' that Zamo mentions a good employer supplys all those anyway. I get free glasses, eye tests, medical and dental cover, help with funeral expenses (not exactly a benefit for me, I know), travel expenses, car allowance, etc.

It's the poor employers that are at fault not the people who, in the main, cannot get employment. At the end of the day I would rather that people who do want to work can, with a decent living wage and that people who are unable to work do not fall into abject poverty as has been the situation in the past.

As for the minority who can work but don't want to, would you want them working alongside you?

Max, the "perks" you get at your work are very good! I don't think that's the norm.

It's not always as simple as good or bad employers either. Small companies can't afford the sort of perks bigger companies can (economies of scale and all that). Anyway, it's a bit like buying a bed with "free delivery". It's not really free as they costed for it in the sale price!

Anyway, the point was to demonstrate that people on benefits have enough to get by. IMHO that is all you should do "get by" if you don't work.

Very few people would argue against having a welfare system. The problem is that our wefare system has for far too many people become a way of life instead of a safety net.

Originally posted by Zamo
Max, the "perks" you get at your work are very good! I don't think that's the norm.

It's not always as simple as good or bad employers either. Small companies can't afford the sort of perks bigger companies can (economies of scale and all that). Anyway, it's a bit like buying a bed with "free delivery". It's not really free as they costed for it in the sale price!

Anyway, the point was to demonstrate that people on benefits have enough to get by. IMHO that is all you should do "get by" if you don't work.

Very few people would argue against having a welfare system. The problem is that our wefare system has for far too many people become a way of life instead of a safety net.

I agree entirely, what started out as a safety net has, for a proportion of society, become a way of life. We need to make working far more attractive than not. We can only do that by encouraging employers to offer more attractive packages rather than reducing what we pay to the unemployed.

Believe me, I had a few years of unemployment before getting a low paid job which in terms of money was only marginally better but in terms of feeling good was a major improvement.

Mind, that was before the days of daytime tv and shopping channels. Ho ho.

The thing is though - it doesn't pay to work!

My husband has gone from part time work to full time managerial work and we are worse off now than we would have been if he had stuck to his part time job.

I can fully understand why people sit on their arses not bothering to get a job.

Moon

Do you think this government is way too soft on people scrounging off the state ?.

I have a good solution to this problem,we should replace fox hunting with,dole cheat hunting.
This will please the animal rights activists,and at the same same provide satisfaction to those of us that dislike paying taxes to allow others to live in comfort.

:thumbsup:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/02/24/do2402.xml

Originally posted by t020
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/02/24/do2402.xml

That is just outrageous

I think £40 pw is a small price to pay to keep such as S Moore (you need to read the quite amusing piece in the Telegraph) out of the work force and at home where she can't do any damage to British industry.:D

I can not stand people who will not work, and as for the argument of getting less money if you work, well everyone has to start somewhere. Get off your arse except the pay drop and do something for the society. Perhaps if these people stopped smoking and drinking and watching TV they would have more money. You start somewhere are then get a pay rise, you cut back on things and build yourself up.

It angers me that people get away with sitting on their arses doing nothing. If you are on JSA, after a period of time if you haven't found a job (and there are plenty of them out there), you should be made to do something to earn your £40 a week. i.e. sweep up rubbish in the streets, clean grafitti off walls etc. If you are not disabled and refuse to do this, then the JSA should be stopped. Ok, we'll have to keep a roof over their heads as we are living in a civilised society, but if this was introduced and people still refuse to work, then they will have to attend the dole office everyday to be given food. That way we can't be accused of not providing food. It will be boring healthy food. As for clothing, second hand clothes can be donated. So you'll have a roof over your head, clothes on your back and food in your stomach.

Before anyone starts with the argument of being qualified and deserving to be on JSA while waiting for the right job, well I've been in this situation. I have a degree and my job contract finished and wasn't renewed. I was out of work. I signed on to JSA and started looking for jobs straight away. There was nothing available in my field. After 3 months, I started temping, answering phones, making coffee. This got me out the house, it paid very little, I didn't need qualifications. I met some great people doing this. When I did eventually get another degree related job interview at least I could say I was working. Those 3 months of looking for work before taking a temp job got me into huge debt. I got £40 a week JSA. My rent was £85 a week as I was living in London and this was the normal rent price in the area. Because I was 23 at the time I came into the bracket of under 24 and therefore was only paid £50 a week housing benefit. Their argument is that your parents still support you. My parents live abroad and I had all my own furniture. Where on earth can you get a place to live for £50 a week in London? You also have to give 2 months notice on the place you live in anyhow. You can not find a place for £50 a week. How do I pay to move my furniture? What was I supposed to do? I was independant and didn't have financial help from parents. So basically out of my £40 a week JSA I paid the excess rent leaving me £5 to live on a week. Bills came to more than that, and I had interest building on my overdraft, direct debits coming out of my account, normal things coming out of my account that any normal working person would have had that couldn't be cancelled. So each week I got further into debt having to extend my overdraft and paying more interest. I got the temping job, which just about covered my rent and basic living expenses.
It angers me that the government did not give a **** about my welfare. I got a better paid job in the end after temping for about 5 months and had to take a loan to cover the debts that had built up, and ended up paying back all my benefits that I had been given through tax!
I therefore can't abide lazy scronging <insert explitives>.
This government is more concerned with looking after poor underclass, scroungers, than the middle people. The middle people who are willing to work and pay their taxes.
:mad:

Originally posted by Foxxx
If you are on JSA, after a period of time if you haven't found a job (and there are plenty of them out there), you should be made to do something to earn your £40 a week. i.e. sweep up rubbish in the streets, clean grafitti off walls etc. If you are not disabled and refuse to do this, then the JSA should be stopped. Ok, we'll have to keep a roof over their heads as we are living in a civilised society, but if this was introduced and people still refuse to work, then they will have to attend the dole office everyday to be given food. That way we can't be accused of not providing food. It will be boring healthy food. As for clothing, second hand clothes can be donated. So you'll have a roof over your head, clothes on your back and food in your stomach.

IMO that's a very good idea..

Thanks!

I've always thought this would be a good idea. People shouldn't just get things for free at the tax payers expense. Especially if they never contribute to tax by never working!

I want to see my tax go to good use, and if it means the streets are cleaner and the community has projects done on it, then I'll be happy to pay for it.

It would also mean that the so-called bums who claim they are looking for work will have something on their CV to talk about in an interview if they are actually looking for a job. Also they would only do this for a a certain amount of time a week, leaving the rest free to look for a job.

I used to be on JSA back in 1997, and to cut a long rant-filled story short, it was total farce, because I'm disabled, I was given a DEA (Disability Employment Advisor) and the daft git was worse than useless! I told him I wanted office work, and he went about looking for retail warehouse work for me, WTF?!

And when I finally did ever find anything to go for, I'd go for the interviews, usually in annoyingly hard to find locations, the jobs were very often taken, but the job centre hadn't taken the ads off the boards, or so the companies kept telling me..... At the time as well, I'd just left an NVQ retail course at Loxley College and subsequently a work placement at the Netto on South Road, whom I was hoping would keep me on and give me a proper job, but they didn't want me cos I'm disabled and not quick enough on my feet for shelf stacking or tillwork.... I was gutted as I really enjoyed the work and got on great with the people I was working with..... Back to the point, I went through hell on JSA, which IMO is totally unsuitable for disabled people, cos they just tell you "go here, go there, go everywhere" with NO support, just chucking you in "at the deep end".

What annoys me though is that whenever I mention on the internet that I'm unemployed, they don't give me chance to tell them the whys and what fors, they just bash me and pigeonhole me as a dole bludger, that ****** me off that people tar anything they don't understand with the "bad" brush.

From the Telegraph: "Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton".

What century do these cretins live in?

The people on this forum are driving me into a position whereby I might be forced to single-handledly bring down the entire British establishment.

By the way, what sort of percentage of your precious taxes do you think goes to these "dole cheats", or to anyone on welfare?

Anyone would think you were forced at gunpoint to hand wads of your hard-earned tenners out at the gyppo camp.

Miserable.

Originally posted by MichaelTravis
By the way, what sort of percentage of your precious taxes do you think goes to these "dole cheats", or to anyone on welfare?


Far too much IMO

Originally posted by Foxxx




There was nothing available in my field. After 3 months, I started temping, answering phones, making coffee.
:mad:

Why after 3 months? Why didn't you take any old crap job, and work your way up instead of accepting tax payers' money, which is the very thing you are complaining about.

Having said that, there are lots who have no intention of working, and there are those in the same boat as you were, but its just taking them longer. Add to this the employers' attitude of, " This prat has got to work for me so I can treat him/her like crap and if they don't like it they can sod off and I'll just get another mug off the dole queue".

Originally posted by MichaelTravis


By the way, what sort of percentage of your precious taxes do you think goes to these "dole cheats", or to anyone on welfare?

Anyone would think you were forced at gunpoint to hand wads of your hard-earned tenners out at the gyppo camp.

Miserable.

Yes, far too much!

It's not the amount it's the principle. The middle people of this country pay their taxes and the dole cheats don't. Yet, they seem to be able to have JSA paid to them, a roof over their head, free dental treatment, free milk tokens, free glasses etc etc etc etc etc, free free. What do they do for this society? Complain they don't have enough and complain that they are hassled into getting a job.

So it's not just about a small percentage of my taxes, its a whole lot more than that.

They get free education, free housing when others, including myself, couldn't afford to keep a roof over my head when I lost my job. A large proportion of them work for cash in hand, and fiddle what they can e.g. bootleg fags and booze, hence dodging tax again. Yet our government insists on looking after them.

What about us normal people who pay for it to go on, it annoys me a lot, all my tax in some way goes towards giving them a life and they give nothing in return.

I am talking about dole scrounging scum, not disabled people - Rich, I hope you realised that. I feel very sorry for your situation. At least you try.

MichaelTravis

Heroic voice of reason

Welcome back


- I heard that the much maligned Susan Moore has serious learning disabilities, but that wouldnt make good copy so they didnt bother to mention it in the tabloids when doing the hatchet job on her

And may I remind you that this country now has fewer people off work and claiming benefits than at any time in the last umpteen bumpteen years, like 20odd or 30odd or something.

And everyone knows that Blair's first act was to get tough on benefit recipients and lots of Forum members would have been criticising him for his illiberalism at the time, had the Forum been here then.

So if I was you, I wouldnt waste time imagining that there are hordes of people sitting at home watching whatever has taken over from Kilroy and thumbing their noses at you while you slave and slave to pay taxes to pay them.

It AINT happening

Originally posted by markham
Why after 3 months? Why didn't you take any old crap job, and work your way up instead of accepting tax payers' money, which is the very thing you are complaining about.



Because for those 3 months I was attending lots of interviews, writing letters, doing some voluntary work to get some experience to apply for a masters etc. I didn't just sit on my arse. I don't think 3 months is a lot, when I've paid taxes for years. I know some that stay unemployed for a year or two while they wait for a graduate job and don't do any temping inbetween.

I paid a lot of money to educate myself so wanted a job that would be in my field and pay enough for me to live and pay off my uni debts.

Not too much to ask.

However, after 3 months once the voluntary work was done and the interviews had been attended, there was nothing, so I got a any old crap job and while I worked there I carried on applying ad-hoc to other jobs.

Once I started working, I was taxed more to pay back the benefits I had been given so effectively paid for my benefits anyway.

So what is your point? Do you have a problem with that? Out of my 10 years of working I have been out of work for 3 months....ever so sorry. I must be a right scronger.

I was referring to people who don't work and have no qualifications. They can start somewhere, anywhere and work their way up. Get out the house and do something.

Incidently, I did have a change or career and when I got my job, I had a pay drop and have worked my way up from there.

Originally posted by Foxxx
I can not stand people who will not work, and as for the argument of getting less money if you work, well everyone has to start somewhere. Get off your arse except the pay drop and do something for the society. Perhaps if these people stopped smoking and drinking and watching TV they would have more money. You start somewhere are then get a pay rise, you cut back on things and build yourself up.


:mad:

Granted, but please read your first paragraph again (quoted) and tell me where it says people on JSA for 3 months or longer are the ones you are refering to. And why is you being on JSA for 3 months (whilst job hunting) ok, but not ok if someone else is on JSA ( whilst job hunting) for 4, 5, 6 months?

Who has set this time limit of 3 months anyway?

Once again, I repeat what I asked you earlier. Why did you find it ok to sign on for 3 months 'because there were no jobs in your field'? Why didn't you take a cleaning job, or a warehouse job, or even a telesales job ( there's plenty of those about) as you advocate so freely to those who are unemployed and don't see why they should do a 'menial' job for less money.

Surely it is the same as someone saying, " I've got a degree. I want a well paid job. No way am I going to take a cleaners job, so I'll take JSA and search for that job at the tax payers expense."

Stop being so pedantic. If you read my post which you seem so into quoting, I stated:

It angers me that people get away with sitting on their arses doing nothing. If you are on JSA, after a period of time if you haven't found a job...

I said AFTER A PERIOD OF TIME. This already applies to everyone, as it did to me. In fact as a graduate you are given (it may have changed, but at the time) 6 months leeway to find a job. If someone loses their job, of course they should have some breathing time to find another that they are qualified to do, otherwise it's a waste of money to the government and to the person to invest in education, if you don't get to use it.


If however, nothing comes about, then you do what you can do, as I did. I was very busy for 3 months pretty much getting experience to help me change direction by working with deaf children so that I could go into audiological science.

Don't you dare put me in the same bracket as people who have been out of work for years and don't bother looking for jobs.

I haven't set any time limit, I was talking about myself. However, if months and months pass then I do think it's time to do something not nothing, which is what I did, bit a lot don't.

I did take a 'menial' job and was there for a few months before moving on. It's not my fault that I got myself educated so I could move on.


So I think that answers your question, I stated that its ok, for all to have JSA for a period of time while looking for a job, not just me. The difference is, I work now and have paid back the benefits I effectively borrowed while I looked for a new job.

What is your god damn problem!

Originally posted by Foxxx

What about us normal people

Where? [looks around] What "normal people"? Am I one? Hope not!

My God damn problem, as you so curtly put it, is that I don't see how anybody who has ever been on the dole has the right to criticise any other person who is on the dole.

What it boils down to is that everybody who signs on and refuses to take the first job offered to them is refusing it for a reason. Usually because it is lousy pay/bemeaning/below them. Were you offered any jobs in your three months? Did you refuse them?

Please tell me why.

And please, please give me a reason why a graduate should be given such leeway, and not a steelworker who has paid a small fortune in taxes maybe for the last 30 years who to my mind has even more right to sit back and recoup as much as he can, for as long as he can. Its HIS money.

And as for being pedantic, yes, right, and attacking anyone who gets JSA because like you they hold out for a half decent job (but maybe for longer) isn't being pedantic then, eh?

Originally posted by Foxxx
Yes, far too much!

It's not the amount it's the principle. The middle people of this country pay their taxes and the dole cheats don't. Yet, they seem to be able to have JSA paid to them, a roof over their head, free dental treatment, free milk tokens, free glasses etc etc etc etc etc, free free. What do they do for this society? Complain they don't have enough and complain that they are hassled into getting a job.

So it's not just about a small percentage of my taxes, its a whole lot more than that.

They get free education, free housing when others, including myself, couldn't afford to keep a roof over my head when I lost my job. A large proportion of them work for cash in hand, and fiddle what they can e.g. bootleg fags and booze, hence dodging tax again. Yet our government insists on looking after them.

What about us normal people who pay for it to go on, it annoys me a lot, all my tax in some way goes towards giving them a life and they give nothing in return.

I am talking about dole scrounging scum, not disabled people - Rich, I hope you realised that. I feel very sorry for your situation. At least you try.

We, as taxpayers, lose far more money to those individuals and companies who can afford creative accountants to sequester their hard earned money away from the eyes of the chancellor, than we do to all the dole scoungers that exist.

Do you think Britain would quite the music and arts scene that it has without the so-called dole? Dole has done more for British Creative Exports than any ill-judged, ministry of fun initiative.

And Creative British Exports are a huge earner for the UK.

Bleating on about dole scroungers make make us feel like good, honest, uptight - i mean upright - tax payers.

But at the root of the complaint is the obsessive worry that *we* are losing out whilst *they* are gaining at our expense.

I think we could be more concerned about the really huge amounts of money leaking out of the tax net through fraud and tax evasion by megacorps.

If we plugged those holes we could all afford to out source our jobs to Bangalore and spend the rest of our natural lives enjoying early retirement on a fat pension.

Those who wanted to work could do so as a hobby, but compulsion would be athing of the past.

And as Max pointed out, some people are doing us all a favour by staying out of employment.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme

I think we could be more concerned about the really huge amounts of money leaking out of the tax net through fraud and tax evasion by megacorps.
.

Yeah, but the people running megacorps aren't scummy lowlife gyppos who it makes us feel better to have a kick at. And that, after all, is the main thing.

Just to clarify something for Foxxx. I do agree that there are some idle sods out there who wouldn't even take a job for £20k+ if it meant having to get up and follow rules. Its the ones who just want to have a better income for their families, or have worked damn hard all their lives and deserve a little bit of their taxes back before it is all squandered on prison comforts, hair brained schemes or it goes down the toilet that is Europe.

Have I made myself clearer less pedanticly?

Originally posted by Belle
And may I remind you that this country now has fewer people off work and claiming benefits than at any time in the last umpteen bumpteen years, like 20odd or 30odd or something.


Thats because to get numbers dowm more lazy people are being classed as unable to work so don't claim JSA anymore they claim ..... (sorry early mornings the name of the benefit escapes me, sick benefit or something similiar to that)

There was an article on it a few years ago.

Foxxx, I do not understand your argument, as you have been on the dole then you know how hard it is to survive on the money you are given, its not a particularly enjoyable experience.

Not only is it hard financially but the emotional impact of being unemployed can badly effect your self esteem, your confidence, it can make you depressed and effect your relationships, so its not exactly something you would put yourself through unless you had to, for whatever reason.

I heard a good one about dole scroungers. A local builder was complaining in our pub that all benefit claimants were on the fiddle. When pressed on how he knew this he pointed out that nobody could survive on what the state handed out.

When pressed further to justify his assertion he added that half the people he employed on his building sites worked for cash in hand and were therefore probably benefit cheats.

He couldn't see the irony at all.

Originally posted by max
I heard a good one about dole scroungers. A local builder was complaining in our pub that all benefit claimants were on the fiddle. When pressed on how he knew this he pointed out that nobody could survive on what the state handed out.

When pressed further to justify his assertion he added that half the people he employed on his building sites worked for cash in hand and were therefore probably benefit cheats.

He couldn't see the irony at all.

:D :D :D

Moonlighting really angers me. I was stood behind a lad in our local post office last week when he cashed his giro. He went straight out of the shop and got into a car with 3 other lads and they all set off on their window cleaning round. Quite brazen about it, ladder and bucket on top of car, easily seen doing his fiddle job around the estates.

Now for those of you who want to say good luck to the lad if he can't live on his dole money, how can he possibly be actively looking for a job when he is out working. Believe me if I knew his address I wouldn't have thought twice about shopping him.

What would you lot have done?

Bribed him :)

"Clean my windows or you're benefit cheat days are numbered sunshine"

:D

You might not have had any windows left to clean! :D

Originally posted by Skatiechik

There was an article on it a few years ago.

Right, I'll take it as gospel then.

We could always go back to the two box system, green cards (unskilled) White and yellow cards (skilled and semi-skilled) whilst there were cards in the boxes no one got the dole.

"But I dont like this job" they would cry! Well tough luck keep looking for a better one was the reply. :o ;) :D

Thousands of us work in jobs we dont like....so instead of the Job Centre pussy footing around people,they should be given a job instead of the claimant calling the shots.

I understand that not all people that claim benefits are spongers,and some people do have genuine reasons for not working.
This however does not include all the sad wasters that hang around shopping centres all day.

So when you visit the Job Centre,it should be a case of...here is a job we have found for you.......goodbye.

The thousands of us that work in jobs we dont like are footing the bill for these wasters.
If we could weed these people out,perhaps the cash could go to more deserving causes....disabled people for example.

Originally posted by tango2
Thousands of us work in jobs we dont like....so instead of the Job Centre pussy footing around people,they should be given a job instead of the claimant calling the shots.

I understand that not all people that claim benefits are spongers,and some people do have genuine reasons for not working.
This however does not include all the sad wasters that hang around shopping centres all day.

So when you visit the Job Centre,it should be a case of...here is a job we have found for you.......goodbye.

The thousands of us that work in jobs we dont like are footing the bill for these wasters.
If we could weed these people out,perhaps the cash could go to more deserving causes....disabled people for example.

Disabled people and the Job Centre do not mix, at least not in my experience which is mentioned 3 posts above this one.

If they had gone your "here's a job, tra" route with someone like me, the results would've probably been even more hell-ish than the 6 months of hell the stupid idiots at the Hillsborough Barracks Job Centre put me through back in 97 when I was on JSA.... Especially that useless DEA (Disability Employment Advisor) they gave me who was trying to get me jobs in retail warehouses when I specifically told him I was after either shop floor or office based work, moron.

But yeah, I agree that more funding needs to be allocated to the disabled, especially from the DSS, getting ANYTHING out of them is like getting blood out of a stone, and they're always banging on about fraud?! A fraudster should be too stupid to make sense of the forms! They want to know everything about you, including how many times you go for a pee or take a dump.

Thats right...they do always bang on about fraud,but what do they do to stop it.....hmmmmmmm,nothing.

No I tell a lie,they make it easy for them,as they do for the lazy sods that sit on their arse all day and have no intention of working.
Maybe if we didnt have to pay for these leaches,we may all be better off financialy.

lets start national shop a fraudster day,and watch em all run to the hills in their droves.


In the end they should pay the worthey and the lazy get nothing if they dont work,,,,good old victorian values..........lol

Originally posted by markham
My God damn problem, as you so curtly put it, is that I don't see how anybody who has ever been on the dole has the right to criticise any other person who is on the dole.

What it boils down to is that everybody who signs on and refuses to take the first job offered to them is refusing it for a reason. Usually because it is lousy pay/bemeaning/below them. Were you offered any jobs in your three months? Did you refuse them?

Please tell me why.

And please, please give me a reason why a graduate should be given such leeway, and not a steelworker who has paid a small fortune in taxes maybe for the last 30 years who to my mind has even more right to sit back and recoup as much as he can, for as long as he can. Its HIS money.

And as for being pedantic, yes, right, and attacking anyone who gets JSA because like you they hold out for a half decent job (but maybe for longer) isn't being pedantic then, eh?

As I explained, I lost my job, I had no choice but to go on the dole. I went into work on the Monday and was told I would not have a job by Friday. That is life.
I signed on as I had no means of money coming in and had bills to pay and rent to pay, plus normal direct debits that I couldn't cancel. Not that I should actually be justifying it to you.
I started looking for work straight away and signed up with several agencies who didn't have anything at that time.
I have every right to criticise people claiming JSA even though I did for 3 months. I pay my taxes, and have since physically paid back all the benefit money I got as when I did start working again, they take it off your tax allowance for the year as earnt money, so none of it was free.
You seem to have is fixed in your head that I turned doen jobs as I thought them beneath me. This was not the case, I was not offered any jobs as I was given leeway to look for something in my field first. I was given 6 months leeway. I had to show evidence that I was applying which I did. I then did voluntary work in order to retrain my skills. Then started temping in a job that did not require any qualifications at all and paid very little. It was my choice not to abuse the leeway given to me as I wanted to work.
My criticism is with people who REFUSE to work and continue to claim JSA and have no intention of working. And also with those who do work, but do it cash in hand and still claim benefits.
I have never fely that I am above anyone, however I worked my arse off to gain an education and paid a lot of money to do this, so of course I wanted to look for a job that would use my skills first. When that didn't happen, I retrained and took a temping job while I continued to apply.
3 months on JSA does not make me a bad person and I don't see why I should justify this to you!

As for the steelworker question, I'm gathering this affected you? This was an awful thing to happen. I think that it isn't just a graduate that should get the leeway, I stated that as an example, you don't have to have a degree you can be trained in something specific and be given the chance to look for jobs in this area too. However, as with me, after a period of time if there is nothing going (which is what also happened to me) then you retrain or take a temp job while looking. I retrained and gained new skills that enabled me to do what I do now. Many steelworkers refused to wrok in anything else because they had done that job for many years. Answer me, what makes a steelworker any different?

I didn't hold out for a decent job as you put it. I initially tried to get another so I could continue to use my skills and when that didn't happen, I got a job and got on with it. Carried on paying my taxes and applying for jobs when they came up. I was lucky to get the job I have now.

I wasn't attacking anyone, I am just stating my opinion that if you can't get a job after some time, then you shouldn't hold out you should work and keep applying for the job you really want.
I've had the same argument with my brother. He claimed JSA for 2 years looking for his dream job and I think he shouold have been working in this period, while looking.

My argument is against people who claim forever and never work.

Well put Foxxx

Shut me up there didn't you.:thumbsup:

This is the kind of topic we could argue about forever.

Pity it wasn't on the poetry thread though, could have got us 50 verses at least.

Anyhow Foxxx, I drop out of this one and admit defeat cos I've run out of arguments.

I wasn't that steelworker, but I know the man who was

No insults to YOU were ever meant by the way.:blush: :smile:

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
We, as taxpayers, lose far more money to those individuals and companies who can afford creative accountants to sequester their hard earned money away from the eyes of the chancellor, than we do to all the dole scoungers that exist.

Do you think Britain would quite the music and arts scene that it has without the so-called dole? Dole has done more for British Creative Exports than any ill-judged, ministry of fun initiative.

And Creative British Exports are a huge earner for the UK.

Bleating on about dole scroungers make make us feel like good, honest, uptight - i mean upright - tax payers.

But at the root of the complaint is the obsessive worry that *we* are losing out whilst *they* are gaining at our expense.

I think we could be more concerned about the really huge amounts of money leaking out of the tax net through fraud and tax evasion by megacorps.

If we plugged those holes we could all afford to out source our jobs to Bangalore and spend the rest of our natural lives enjoying early retirement on a fat pension.

Those who wanted to work could do so as a hobby, but compulsion would be athing of the past.

And as Max pointed out, some people are doing us all a favour by staying out of employment.

I agree with many points here. This is another matter indeed, on top of what we have been discussing with benefit fraud/scrounging.

As for musicians and artists, this is a tricky one. I have many musician friends who work full time at creating and writing while claiming JSA. I actually think that the system needs to change and more grants should be available to help people do this. My friends got hassled all the time to get a job, but their argument is that they can't have a job and tour with bands, write music etc. There needs to be a better system for recognising talent.
This is a separate issue to dole scrounging.
However, there does need to be some sort of give and take here, a musician or artist etc can't just never work if they aren't eventually getting somewhere and starting to support themselves. I've had many a debate on this one!
I love music and respect those who want to dedicate their lives to it. I write myself, but never wanted to give everything up to do it. I'm too materialistic I guess!

Originally posted by markham
Well put Foxxx

Shut me up there didn't you.:thumbsup:

This is the kind of topic we could argue about forever.

Pity it wasn't on the poetry thread though, could have got us 50 verses at least.

Anyhow Foxxx, I drop out of this one and admit defeat cos I've run out of arguments.

I wasn't that steelworker, but I know the man who was

No insults to YOU were ever meant by the way.:blush: :smile:

That's cool. I've enjoyed the discussion! It's sometimes hard to explain what you mean, especially at the moment, I'm tired and hung over!!
This debate is one of those that will go on forever as no-one can ever agree and no government can ever seem to sort out anything!

i agree that ppl shouldnt be allowed to jus sit there on there arses for their whole live but i also understand why ppl do it to. i single mum of 3 kids would love to go to work again but no way could i afford to come off benefits.even with things like famnily credit. iv been to job centre had it all worked out how i would b if i went back to work and they told me i wouldnt even be able to afford to pay my rent let alone childminding costs. so [please dont class everyone that is on job seekers or income support as lazy ppl who sit around all day doin nothin cos i can assure you that alot of ppl r not doin this. xxx

seasonal worker 18 hours per week at holiday resort,min wage - finish eary last december,applied for jobseekers allowance,for the first time no benefit paid what so ever worked more than 16 hrs - no other work till coming march. how doe's that person live ???

I am on the dole because someone told my previous employer that i supported the bnp so i got the sack but instead of just sitting on my arse spending my money on booze and fags like many people on benifits do.

I am going to adult learning classes to give myself a better chance of finding work as employers want to see that you are doing somthing other than sitting on there arse

In reply to the posts of 'why didnt you just get any job' I would like to add I was claiming for a couple of months when I graduated from my MSc.
I applied to professional jobs related to qualifications, but also to cleaning/shelf staking jobs to pass the time until I found what I saw as a 'proper' job (ie related to qualifications).
A lot of cleaner/shop type jobs I couldn't get, I figure they though I would bugger off as soon I found something else.
So try as I might to get off JSA and into any old job...it aint always as easy as it sounds!

Originally posted by max
No, it wouldn't surprise me if that's the amount the state determines people need to live. What does suprise me is that so many people work for employers who don't pay a living wage that the state has to make up the difference. I'd be interested in seeing how much more we the tax-payers subsidise business compared with how much we pay to support the so-called underclass.

Apologies for quoting from page 1 but only just seen his thread...

As far as employers not paying a living wage - I think you will find very few/no (Mainstream, legal) employers that pay less than a living wage (What that is is another debate!)

The problem arises when the government gets it's claws in with income tax/national insurance (Same thing nowadays...) plus many goods having VAT at 17.5% and all the stealth taxes I could mention that would take up an entire thread!!!

Check out the Adam Smith Institute report on their plan for Flat Tax in the UK. http://www.adamsmith.org/images/uploads/publications/flattax.pdf

See if you think it would be a better system - I definitely do.

Originally posted by max
I agree entirely, what started out as a safety net has, for a proportion of society, become a way of life.

For a very interesting (And accurate in my view) bit of writing check out: http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/008487.html

Hard to disagree that cutting the excesses of the welfare state quite severely wouldn't have an positive effect on the type of people the state spends rather large amounts of money on through benefits, crime, policing, the whole "nanny state" apparatus, negative economic effects etc...

Originally posted by Foxxx
Stop being so pedantic. If you read my post which you seem so into quoting, I stated:



I said AFTER A PERIOD OF TIME. This already applies to everyone, as it did to me. In fact as a graduate you are given (it may have changed, but at the time) 6 months leeway to find a job. If someone loses their job, of course they should have some breathing time to find another that they are qualified to do, otherwise it's a waste of money to the government and to the person to invest in education, if you don't get to use it.


If however, nothing comes about, then you do what you can do, as I did. I was very busy for 3 months pretty much getting experience to help me change direction by working with deaf children so that I could go into audiological science.

Don't you dare put me in the same bracket as people who have been out of work for years and don't bother looking for jobs.

I haven't set any time limit, I was talking about myself. However, if months and months pass then I do think it's time to do something not nothing, which is what I did, bit a lot don't.

I did take a 'menial' job and was there for a few months before moving on. It's not my fault that I got myself educated so I could move on.


So I think that answers your question, I stated that its ok, for all to have JSA for a period of time while looking for a job, not just me. The difference is, I work now and have paid back the benefits I effectively borrowed while I looked for a new job.

What is your god damn problem!

Not everyone who is on JSA is a "bludger" though, when I was on it in 97 I half killed myself physically and emotionally trying to find work, but even in this day and age when it's supposed to be illegal to discriminate, you try and get anything other than charity shop work when your disabled and you've got **** all chance.... :rant:

And I know that from bitter experience and have worked in almost every charity shop in North Sheffield but does having all that experience on my CV make any difference? Does it hell as like! They just look and see that I'm disabled and virtually slam teh door in my face! :rant:

Originally posted by Faithless
I have become very cynical about peoplewho claim dole and sit on there arse quite happy to live of us tax payers. I want to make it clear in my own mind how much people get while being on the dole, as its a long time since I was on it (after graduating).



Well I bet you feel much better now you have got that out of your system. many thanks for sharing your views.:hihi:

Originally posted by MichaelTravis

By the way, what sort of percentage of your precious taxes do you think goes to these "dole cheats", or to anyone on welfare?

Ohh dear - you're not well acquainted with things called "Numbers" are you?

If you were you would be able to understand that this: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/economic_data_and_tools/finance_spending_statistics/pes_function/function.cfm

Means 28% or £146Bn is the answer to your question. Quite a lot wouldn't you agree?

i have not read the whole thread as its too long but i got to add....


i get working/child tax credits and child benefit

iwork 25 hours per week to get this but cant work any more or i earn too much!!!!
i still pay tax on my earnings

i am on a high hourly rate but simply could not afford to live if i had to pay out the full time child care of £600 per month!

i would happily go to work full time if i got my child care paid for, i would be paying more tax as earning more and the government would also save thousands!!

i think its stupid how they work as they give us no choice but to work less hours

My view is that people should mind their own business about what benefits others do or don't get.

Originally posted by savbaby
i have not read the whole thread as its too long but i got to add....


i get working/child tax credits and child benefit

iwork 25 hours per week to get this but cant work any more or i earn too much!!!!
i still pay tax on my earnings.....

Gordon Brown is well and truly put down with government figures here that actually sicken me they are so stupid.

http://timworstall.typepad.com/timworstall/2005/11/taxes_credits_a.html

The Conservatives shold still those figures on a poster with some tag line like: Remember a vote for Labour is a vote for a tax system that encourages you NOT to work....

Originally posted by slimsid2000
My view is that people should mind their own business about what benefits others do or don't get.

...and my view is that as a taxpayer of many thousands of pounds a year the government has a duty to spend that money as effectively as possible.

To say that is not the case now is a mild understatement. Have a look at http://burningourmoney.blogspot.com/2006/01/how-much-waste.html and that's just an estimate of waste. Never mind the areas where the government spends money when it has no need to do so.

Originally posted by barny_100
Gordon Brown is well and truly put down with government figures here that actually sicken me they are so stupid.

http://timworstall.typepad.com/timworstall/2005/11/taxes_credits_a.html

The Conservatives shold still those figures on a poster with some tag line like: Remember a vote for Labour is a vote for a tax system that encourages you NOT to work....

well i dont agree with those figures as you cant claim if you earn that much but i do agree with the theory!

i would rather work to earn all my money, obviously the childcare element would come into it but kids go to school for free so why not nursery as babies? its so stupid!

Originally posted by savbaby
well i dont agree with those figures as you cant claim if you earn that much but i do agree with the theory!

i would rather work to earn all my money, obviously the childcare element would come into it but kids go to school for free so why not nursery as babies? its so stupid!

The example was actually from government figures a few months ago - saying that they change the rules so much it might be different now!

Originally posted by slimsid2000
My view is that people should mind their own business about what benefits others do or don't get.

I'd extend that to saying that people could usefully mind their business a great deal more and other people's a darn sight less and we might end up with a more peaceful planet.

while we're discussing fraud has anyone given a thought to the vast amount of tax fraud that goes on in the building trade with these cowboys advertising with their mobile phones so that they can duck out of charging and paying VAT. Now that really makes me very angry.

Originally posted by slimsid2000
My view is that people should mind their own business about what benefits others do or don't get. well said slimsid i completely agree with you , they should all keep their noses out of other peoples private financial affairs its about time they left people alone .

i agree you should get off your backside and work but having seen the wasters of this planet and having worked hard myself and struggled to run a house on my own i now have no work ethic. why should we pay to support layabouts, on drugs, alcoholics and theives. GET OFF YOUR BACKSIDES AND EARN YOUR KEEP.

Originally posted by peanuts
i agree you should get off your backside and work but having seen the wasters of this planet and having worked hard myself and struggled to run a house on my own i now have no work ethic. why should we pay to support layabouts, on drugs, alcoholics and theives. GET OFF YOUR BACKSIDES AND EARN YOUR KEEP.
I went to uninversity for an education and accrued the associated debts. I am intelligent, hard-working and loyal. I am dedicated. I have worked in many bottom-end jobs from cleaning to factory work to office admin to barman, trying to "work my way up!"

When I fell ill with septicaemia several years ago my employer screwed me over for my SSP, the legal system let me down, the benefits system let me down. I was too ill to work (having gone from 13stone to 7stone in less than a month) and lived for months on virtually nothing! I had no income.

Since then I have seen and heard almost every perspective on this argument.
The fact of the matter is this, it is only the wealthy middle class who will ever complain about the welfare system.

The very wealthy earn more and pay less. (off-shore tax havens, tex-refundable charitable donations, even the ability to be able to afford an accountant).

Those at the bottom of society who often rely on the welfare system cannot ever realistically "work their way up".
They pay the most for what should be public services (e.g. water & energy) and they have the least access to resources with which to improve their status should they wish to.

I find myself in a similar position now, despite the fact that I would be of benefit to any employer that should care to give me a job, no-one will. When I apply for "any old job" type jobs the prospective employers come up with excuses like "you're over-qualified" or "we're looking for someone we can mold a little more" or "you live too far away" but when I apply for positions that would suit my experience/qualifications/knowledge/skill-base the prospective employers usually spout rubbish like "we're looking for someone with a more recent experience of the position" or "we want someone with less marketplace experience that we can train to do things our way."

I'm only 28 yet I feel as though I have no chance and no future!!!

I could do just about anything I put my mind to yet no-one will give me the chance.
My income support runs out in May and I will be moved onto JSA. But there's a big BUT here, seeing as how, when I'm so eager to work and can't get it when I want it, how am I gonna get it when I have to?

Additionally, as an added expense of having been ill and my former employer keeping my SSP, I have accrued debts. Debts which I can stall as long as I claim benefits but debts which I should never have accrued, had my employer acted within the law. Debts which are gaining interest for corporations. Debts which once I retun to work will need to be paid off.
This mountain of debt is not my fault and yet upon my return to work, they will consume all my income and more, yet there is no help for me with these. They WILL cripple me if I take a low-paid job. So there seem to be no way out for me but to stay on benefits until such time as someone will give me a job which pays decent money, something most of the proponents of the "scrounger" theory suggest shouldn't happen to me until I'm working and therein lies the contradiction.

I worked hard but fell ill and because of my employers fell into unavoidable debt.
I am prepared to work hard again but because of debt I will not actually have enough money to live on if I work for a low wage.
No employer deems me worthy of a higher wage.
If I return to work for a low paid job, in a short time (long before any upward move in my position) I will either run out of food or the ability to travel due to an imbalance of cash flow. Without food or transport I will quickly find myself out of work and or ill again, thus unable to work.

I am sure many other people are in the same or similar situations to me, people who would like to work, would like to be participating, contributing members of society but who find themselves unable due to the system itself.

What we need is a narrower wage band, with top-earners limited directly by the earning capacity of those at the bottom of the scale. Only when there is a greater balance in the earnings stakes will there be a significant shift from benefits to employment, as there will be a greater shift in the equality of wealth.

Anyone who follows this post with a complaint about benefit cheats should consider how a large company can keep SSP illegally yet not be imposed upon or punished in any way and how large companies and wealthy indiviuals dodge paying taxes.

The people who really cheat you out of your money are the large corporate entities who operate without conscience.

In the same vein that some of you believe people should be forced to work, I believe that employers should be forced to pay a fair wage and to comply with employment law. The real drain on society is not the indiviual but the corporation. After all the primary function of these entities is to funnel money upwards.

I am not anti-corporate or anti-capitalist, I am anti-poverty and anti-greed.

Anyone who wants to employ me can PM me and we'll talk!

Many of us have opinions on this subject based on our own experiences. However, I do have to disagree with this statement:

The fact of the matter is this, it is only the wealthy middle class who will ever complain about the welfare system.

I think the people who get fed up with the system tend to be those not that far above the lifestyle they might have on benefits and could include:

*Couples who together have a reasonable income as they both work, but if one job went they'd be stuffed, as they wouldn't get any benefits but couldn't reduce their basic outgoings by much
*People who have ongoing health problems and may get incapacity benefit for a while, but have to pay for prescriptions and everything else because they have a partner who works, albeit not earning a massive amount
*People who have limited their families to 1 or 2 kids because they consider they can't afford any more then see others quite happily reproducing with no thought of working - the more kids, the more benefits are awarded
*People in the older age group, who have brought up families with no financial help (no child tax credits, child benefit was only for the first child) and may have little saved as they didn't earn much anyway, with little private pension to look forward to. (Probably just enough to stop them getting council tax benefit)

Some elderly people I've met through work really resent the fact that their small works pension means they have to pay most or all of their rent & council tax themselves, where they see others, who haven't contributed much during their working lives getting everything paid for. I think many of us would just like to see a fairer system, where anyone who could work is 'encouraged' into even a basic job after a set period of receiving benefits.
Before anyone jumps down my throat, there will always be exceptions - people with disabilities, long term sick, carers etc.

Originally posted by osiris

The fact of the matter is this, it is only the wealthy middle class who will ever complain about the welfare system.

I am sure many other people are in the same or similar situations to me, people who would like to work, would like to be participating, contributing members of society but who find themselves unable due to the system itself.



I too diagree with your first comment osiris. People from all walks of life complain about benefits. Generally not at people in your scenario but those who do not wish to work.

Your second paragraph is true and is the problem IMO. I admit that i dont know enough about the benefit system however i know of a few who just wont work because it is not worth it. They are willing to work but if they enter into one on of the plenty low-paid (miminum wage) jobs out there they are actually worse off (so they state!).

I understand there are benefits out there what top up low wages but granted, i dont know enought about these.

Can anyone suggest a way (that wouldn't cost billions) to sort the benefit cheats from those genuinely in need? The present system means that those who recieve benefits get the minimum neccesary, and it is pretty close to a minimum.

You could reduce benefits, but that would put those who genuinely need them further into poverty - in the case of multiple children and the whole "pop them out and claim more benefit" mentality - do the children deserve to suffer for their parents problems? Maybe we should go down chinas route and outlaw having more than two children :thumbsup: - we could even introduce the same local quotas and ensure that those in dore could reproduce happily, whilst those in shiregreen would have to wait their turn.

(note, i'm not in support of this :))

So thats child benefit. JSA - what about the abusers of this, who don't search for jobs (primarily, in my experience, teenagers living at home), how can you sort those in need (parents won't give them any money, charge them board and so on) from those not in need?

I will complain about those who fraud the system, those with no genuine need, and i'm certainly not middle class or wealthy, but I do agree with the principle of providing "minimum living standards" to all.

Finally, on the political point, those who blame labour for the benefit fraudsters (amongst many things), can I see an example of what the conservatives or lib dem (or other non-named parties) intend on doing with benefits.

edited: conservatives site is next to useless, has a few short paragraphs on general policy

liberal democrats policy is about reducing the fraud, which apparently is worth £100 for every taxpayer in the UK (rather round number, don't you think) - they just mention scrapping means testing for some benefits (which surely means that people eligible will go up) and increasing detection (which will surely cost more?)

I am talking from first hand experience, not because I didn't work but because I did work very hard. In the end I quit my job after 7 years being disillusuioned. The government have taken away the power to do anything about benefit cheats. No matter what the fancy expensive adverts ask you to do, if you report fraud it's very hard for them to catch the cheats. Usually it ends up nothing been done because now they are not allowed to do proper checks. I am now self employed, work hard and don't have to see these so called any more.

in this day and age the only people getting benifits should be the disabled and the elderly everyone else should work or starve.....our goverment are far to good at handing tax payers money out to scroungers.

im not quoting anyone
there is not enough jobs out there for everyone on benefits
a lot of jobs are employers that want cheap labour and goverment help with money to employ people then they get push at the end of their 6 or 12 months. then they get someone else to do the job.
also why should people take jobs that makes them worse off than being unemployed. the problem lies with the goverment which should make it that anyone working should be a certain amount a money better off than being unemployed.
the only ones that make me angry are the ones that are working and claiming benefits.
anyone who as been on long term unemployment know what its like to have the goverment on your back insisting that there is a job out there for you when they know that there is not always and they cant make someone employ you.the longer you have been out of work the more dificult it is to get a job.