did anybody watch this programme on channel 4 broadcast 19th may ?

In God's Name

As the Human Fertilisation and Embryo Bill continues its way through Parliament, David Modell follows some of the leading members of Christian pressure groups as they attempt to win converts and convince MPs to base laws on Biblical beliefs.
Hard-line Christian activists are now mobilising believers in an attempt to make an impact on society nationally. Followers believe abortion and homosexuality should be illegal, there should be no sex before marriage and that the law of blasphemy should be strictly enforced.
They say the Bible is the definitive word of God and is literally true and are intolerant of other faiths. The film follows well funded and politically active Christian groups and shows them emerging as a significant voice in British politics.

They think society should be built on their beliefs. They claim non-believers are damned. But these radical Christian groups are not in America – they are here and are aiming to change the laws of our land, discovers the Bafta-winning film-maker David Modell
It's Tuesday morning and the infants' classroom in Carmel School is filled with the sound of children's voices reciting a rhyme. "The Lord has not dealt with us according to our sins nor punished us according to our iniquities." These are not easy words to remember if you're six.
Melony, the teacher, goes on to explain: "Before Jesus came, people who disobeyed God got turned to a pillar of salt. So thank God for Jesus because we can say 'Jesus, I'm sorry' and we don't have to fear getting turned into a pillar of salt, which really happened in the Old Testament."
One little girl has to do a science test. A classroom assistant kneels next to her, takes her hand and says: "We pray, Father, that you'll help her check all her spellings. In Jesus's name, Amen."
The test is multiple choice. Question five is: "God made the world in [BLANK] days." The options are "five, six or seven". The six-year-old carefully writes "six". The right answer.
This scene would be surprising enough if the school were in America's Bible Belt, but the voices around me are English, and we're in Bristol.
Carmel Christian School is my latest stop on a journey through British Christian fundamentalism, for a Channel 4 Dispatches film. With the nation focused on the perceived threat from radical Islam, I am interested to know if a less apparent form of radical religious belief is gaining ground. It is.
The uncompromising creationist curriculum taught in Carmel has been imported from the US. It is called Accelerated Christian Education; the motto of the Florida-based company who produce it is: "Reaching the world for Christ, one child at a time."
With 50 small schools in the UK teaching this curriculum, a total of more than 2,000 children are being "reached for Christ". Yet these schools are not operating outside the education system. Carmel is a government-endorsed faith school, complete with an Ofsted report that describes the teaching as "satisfactory".
According to the head teacher, David Owens, it's all thanks to a Labour prime minister. "Tony Blair opened the door in the debate on faith schools," he explains. "So it's time for people like us to strike while the iron is hot."
The school is part of the Carmel Christian Centre, one of a growing number of locally based hard-line Christian organisations. The aim of these groups is to spread a fundamentalist form of Christianity. The followers believe that the Bible is literally true and not open to any degree of interpretation. They are the only "true" Christians because they have confessed their sins before Jesus and become "born again". Those who have not converted are damned.
While mainstream Christian worship has been in steady decline, evangelical Christianity has been increasing. Not all evangelical worshippers hold such hard-line beliefs, but the fundamentalists will almost certainly describe themselves as evangelical.
Accurate figures quantifying the size of this movement are hard to come by. Carmel says they are a Pentecostal Church, one of the most prominent and fundamentalist strands of evangelical Christianity. According to the Evangelical Alliance, more than two million people in the UK now claim to be Pentecostal worshippers.
The ambitions of Britain's hard-line Christians go far beyond the borders of their local communities. Like most fundamentalist movements, the ultimate aim is a society built on their rigid belief system.
I was invited to Carmel by someone I met on a demonstration against the Sexual Orientation Rights [gay rights] legislation outside Parliament at the beginning of last year. The protest had been organised by the Lawyers' Christian Fellowship (LCF) – or, more specifically, by Andrea Williams, its public policy director.
Ms Williams believes any law that goes against her strict biblical beliefs must be fought. Her latest target is the Human Fertilisation and Embryology (HFE) Bill, which reaches a critical stage in its passage through Parliament next week. Ms Williams tells me why she is campaigning against it. "I believe there's a spiritual battle going on," she explains. "These laws reject God, and any rejection of God is the work of the enemy, Satan."
article continued here.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1975933/Christian-fundamentalists-fighting-spiritual-battle-in-Parliament.html?pageNum=2

I like to believe in the fuzzy ideas of science, which say that any idea can be checked against fact by experiment; if this is fatal to our beloved theory, then bye-bye theory.

Others prefer to believe in the hard, firm knowledge that comes from faith; after all, no scientist can tell you how many days it took to create the Earth; a firm "six days" is a comforting answer.

Now faith means that you don't need an experiment! So, if you are a Wednesdayite, you know by your faith that they will win their next match -- so why bother playing, just give Wednesday all the points! (for non-Sheffielders, Wednesday play football/soccer at Hillsborough in blue and white shirts)

So I base my life on experiment, and hope to see my team win the next match; fundamentalists seek the comfort of certainty in faith, and don't need the match to be played, as their book has told them the result already!

Childrens' educational establishments should not be able to prescribe a religion.

She knows this is not achievable any time soon, but a reduction in the upper limit on terminations would be a start.

they obviously not influential at all. Britain is a secular society.

I liked the guy who hoped his son would not turn out to be gay. When asked why his response was:

"Well, I don't want him to get sh*t on his p*nis."

Or the fella with obligatory big teeth (imported direct from the US of A no doubt) who got the hump on with the film crew (he couldn't decide whether he wanted them filming or not) and who received a large splash of bird poo on his shirt.

Once he'd changed his shirt he decided that the aforementioned crap was in fact, 'a message from God.'

You can't buy comedy like this.

Putting the mentalist in fundamentalists.

There are the people who actively meddle in the Middle East peace process, because they need Israel to be in a certain state before Our Lord And Saviour Jesus H. Christ descends from heaven to soundly smite sinners. Mental.

Religion has no place in schools, particularly government sponsored ones. If someone wants to pay tuition to send their child to a religious school, be my guest but don't expect me to pay for it.

I live in the Bible Belt, by the way. Off the top of my head there are at least 7 churches and 2 temples within 2 miles of my house. One of those churches is also a Catholic Elementary school but it is supported by private tuition.

Yes the religious brainwashing is alive and well here....and it looks like it is coming alive there.

I thought this OP had promissed to avoid posting about political or radical factions .

She knows this is not achievable any time soon, but a reduction in the upper limit on terminations would be a start.

they obviously not influential at all. Britain is a secular society.


The Church has historically had a prominent national voice and British society is often said to be based on Christian values originating from the bible such as human life always being regarded as sacred. How important do you think it is that British society continues to be based on Christian values?'. On a BBC survey 44% of non-believers answered very important (19%) or quite important (25%).

The poll taken for BBC News 24's Faith Day examines how belief in religions is shaping British identity.

More than two-thirds of the 1,019 respondents said they were Christian, but only 17% regularly went to church.

Almost 75% of respondents said the UK should retain Christian values - including 69% of Jews, and nearly 50% of Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus.



So what's going on there? Secularism clearly has a long way to go in this country ...

Mercifully, religion is slowly but surely becoming an obsolete way of life in the west at least and hopefully itll start to become more and more ignored in the middle east so these fundamentalist types will have less and less say in the ways of the world over the next century or so.

Id go so far as to say this rise in fundamentalism both in the east and west is a last gasp before its gone for good.

Of course, there`ll always be some fruit cake somewhere who will want to follow whatever holy books in fashion at the time to the letter and even make up his own ideas of how things should be but thats human nature for you, some people are simply nuts.

The Church has historically had a prominent national voice and British society is often said to be based on Christian values originating from the bible...

Almost 75% of respondents said the UK should retain Christian values - including 69% of Jews, and nearly 50% of Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus.
[/U]

It's no big surprise to find so many people stupid enough to think values like being honest and not killing people originated in the bible and can legitimatly be called "christian values" :rolleyes:

Mind you the people who conducted the survey are also to blame for the false oppositions in their wording.

It's no big surprise to find so many people stupid enough to think values like being honest and not killing people originated in the bible and can legitimatly be called "christian values" :rolleyes:

Mind you the people who conducted the survey are also to blame for the false oppositions in their wording.

I do not speak for views of these people or christianity for that matter,but my point was to state that Britain is not a secular society as a whole, as religion and in particular CofE play a huge part.

It's no big surprise to find so many people stupid enough to think values like being honest and not killing people originated in the bible and can legitimatly be called "christian values" :rolleyes:

Mind you the people who conducted the survey are also to blame for the false oppositions in their wording.

But they are there none-the-less. So from the tone of your remark I take it you think people who value honesty and not killing people are stupid?

But they are there none-the-less. So from the tone of your remark I take it you think people who value honesty and not killing people are stupid?

For most people honesty and not killing people are HUMAN values, recognised by most people in most cultures since civilisation began. I believe you know this yourself and thus it makes your fatuous question a dishonest one.

For most people honesty and not killing people are HUMAN values, recognised by most people in most cultures since civilisation began. I believe you know this yourself and thus it makes your fatuous question a dishonest one.

You talk about human values yet you call people stupid and then imply I am fatuous and dishonest. What were you saying about HUMAN values because I wish you would practise what you preach and not belittle people.

I've decided to stop watching these documentaries about religion, they give completely the wrong impression of the majority of people who follow these faiths. And of course are only ever about the sections of the religion with the most extreme views in order to pull in the viewers.

I do not speak for views of these people or christianity for that matter,but my point was to state that Britain is not a secular society as a whole, as religion and in particular CofE play a huge part.

Dull monotheistic religions have been pretty much dead in this country for a long time. Many who call themselves christian on the census form don't really understand what it means anyway, and many who understand it don't actually follow its teachings where they deviate from common sense or cultural norms.

Most people visit churches for the architecture and for BM&Ds in which mention of god and jesus is the boring "filler" material for most people.

religion just isn't a political issue in UK politics as it is in the states. Abortion would never be an issue between candidates in an election here. There's been stories knocking around in the UK press for 20 years of Christian fundamentalists infiltrating Conservative associations in some of the strong Tory areas rather in the manner of Trots infilitrating the Labour party in the 70s and 80s, but without any of the effect on local government that the Trots had. If they're trying to morally improve - to their way of thinking - the UK, then they're not exactly succeeding. It's a lot less religous a country than it was 20 years ago, and it wasn't particularly religous even then. In the last general election, neither the would-be Prime Minister or Chancellor of the Exchequer were Christian, the Lib Dem candidate was Catholic, and so was next Tory leader IDS.

it is worth noting that no Catholic has ever been PM, and that Blair only converted to Catholicism after leaving office, but that's to do with our constitution and the spill over effect of the monarch needing to be a Protestant.

They seem to like biblical quotes, so here's one: Mathew 7:5.

In the words of the late, great Bill Hicks:

"Fundamentalist Christianity - fascinating. These people actually believe that the the world is 12,000 years old. Swear to God. Based on what? I asked them.

"Well we looked at all the people in the Bible and we added 'em up all the way back to Adam and Eve, their ages: 12,000 years."

Well how ******* scientific, okay. I didn't know that you'd gone to so much trouble. That's good. You believe the world's 12,000 years old?

"That's right."

Okay, I got one word to ask you, a one word question, ready?

"Uh-huh."

Dinosaurs.

You know the world is 12,000 years old and dinosaurs existed, they existed in that time, you'd think it would have been mentioned in the ******* Bible at some point.

"And lo Jesus and the disciples walked to Nazareth. But the trail was blocked by a giant brontosaurus... with a splinter in his paw. And O the disciples did run a shriekin': 'What a big ******* lizard, Lord!' But Jesus was unafraid and he took the splinter from the brontosaurus's paw and the big lizard became his friend.

"And Jesus sent him to Scotland where he lived in a loch for O so many years inviting thousands of American tourists to bring their fat ******* families and their fat dollar bills.

"And oh Scotland did praise the Lord. Thank you Lord, thank you Lord. Thank you Lord."

I have done many debates with Christians on many issues about faith, morality and truth. Most people are reasonable, and I always think that both parties get something out of the discussions.

However, I have come to the conclusion that debating with “fundamentalists” (or more specifically Young Earth Creationists) is not actually worth it. They believe in a world view that is so at odds with any form of reasonable honesty as they have been brainwashed in abandoning any form of critical thought.

Their views on existence is based on the fact that all of science - including geology, physics, biology, genetics, astronomy, zoology, cosmology, linguistics and especially evolution is a lie and a deliberate conspiracy by the atheists/communists.

Also, I have found that all people who get drawn into this sort of church as adults/late teens tend to be those with “problems” or are troubled and needy in some way.

In total, this actually means that the “Fundamentalists” featured in the TV programme etc are people with some mental health problems. In other words, people who we should try and help and understand, not argue with.

PS
A good qoute from Bill Hicks, but most YECs think the world started in 4002 BC, making it only 6,000 years old

...and that Blair only converted to Catholicism after leaving office...

I wondered why Blair would ever convert to Catholicism and then it dawned on me... he fancies himself as the next Pope, doesn't he?

But they are there none-the-less. So from the tone of your remark I take it you think people who value honesty and not killing people are stupid?

No, I think they are saying that christians defend the value of their faith on the basis that it gives morality to the world, when in fact the case is that all functional societies develop a code over lying, murder and property rights.

What is more interesting is the fact that the "Christian morality" as written in the book supports things that we reject outright now - for example slavery.

Putting the mentalist in afundamentalists.

So the next time someone talks about their fundamental rights in whatever field it may happen to be you will tell them they are “mental” will you, or is it only Christians you insult?




Mercifully, religion is slowly but surely becoming an obsolete way of life in the west at least and hopefully itll start to become more and more ignored in the middle east so these fundamentalist types will have less and less say in the ways of the world over the next century or so.

Id go so far as to say this rise in fundamentalism both in the east and west is a last gasp before its gone for good.

Of course, there`ll always be some fruit cake somewhere who will want to follow whatever holy books in fashion at the time to the letter and even make up his own ideas of how things should be but thats human nature for you, some people are simply nuts.

What would you replace religion with Jabbers? Your own philosophy perhaps? Remember children, and you have a young daughter don’t you, pick up on their parent’s attitudes very quickly and we can all read your innuendoes which may be innocent fun but it gives the green light to the sort of behaviour that can lead to early pregnancy. If I had to choose a roll model for my grandchildren and the choice was between a book of your quotes and the teaching of Jesus I would give the smutty jokes a miss and choose Christianity any day.



In the words of the late, great Bill Hicks:

Bill Hicks had it wrong. Adam and Eve were not the first people; they were the first people in the Bible. If you read Genesis chapter four you will find that civilisation was well advanced, they were building walled cities against invaders and they were playing musical instruments and were working with iron and other metals. You need to go back to the drawing board and you can but unfortunately Bill Hicks cannot.





No, I think they are saying that christians defend the value of their faith on the basis that it gives morality to the world, when in fact the case is that all functional societies develop a code over lying, murder and property rights.

What is more interesting is the fact that the "Christian morality" as written in the book supports things that we reject outright now - for example slavery.

Facts are repeated in science books time and time again by different authors thus confirming commonly held beliefs. Likewise with the Bible that according to you has a similar morality worldwide. So if there is little difference between the Bible and other cultures (according to you) why not attack other people and races as well?

As for slavery, it was only the same then as it is today with immigrant workers coming over here for food and shelter and security. When they were free to go many of them chose to remain with the family who had provided for them, protected them and kept them safe and secure. It wasn’t slavery as we think of it today they were like refugees seeking asylum and they often chose to remain with their families. It was like being in service in Edwardian times and the servants were part of the family. That is the sort of relationship it was.

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I like to believe in the fuzzy ideas of science, which say that any idea can be checked against fact by experiment; if this is fatal to our beloved theory, then bye-bye theory.

Others prefer to believe in the hard, firm knowledge that comes from faith; after all, no scientist can tell you how many days it took to create the Earth; a firm "six days" is a comforting answer.

Now faith means that you don't need an experiment! So, if you are a Wednesdayite, you know by your faith that they will win their next match -- so why bother playing, just give Wednesday all the points! (for non-Sheffielders, Wednesday play football/soccer at Hillsborough in blue and white shirts)

So I base my life on experiment, and hope to see my team win the next match; fundamentalists seek the comfort of certainty in faith, and don't need the match to be played, as their book has told them the result already!

Science and morality are pretty well clear cut. The faith of a football supporter is something they hope for, and depending on form we can sometimes make a judgement as to who might win. My faith in God has never let me down, perhaps because it is based on reality rather than the silly notions some people have.

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I find this site useful for ripping christianity to shreds - http://www.askwhy.co.uk/adelphiasophism/index.php
Particularly this page - http://www.askwhy.co.uk/questioningbelief/index.php

Wouldn't it be lovely to replace religion with common sense and an evidence based approach? Trouble is there's too many people with 'faith' who believe their way is right.

They aren't talking about Christianity, they are talking about what they think Christianity is and that is due to the sad lack of Christian teaching in the schools at home and obviously they don't get it in the churches because they don't go.

As for slavery, it was only the same then as it is today with immigrant workers coming over here for food and shelter and security. When they were free to go many of them chose to remain with the family who had provide for them, protected them and kept them safe and secure. It wasn’t slavery as we think of it today they were like refugees seeking asylum and they often chose to remain with their families. It was like being in service in Edwardian times and the servants were part of the family. That is the sort of relationship it was.

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Did they bring their own manacles and chains with them too, or were these kindly provided by their host families?

I particularly like this arguement from the site I quoted above;

"Could a being supposed to be perfect and almighty knowingly make a creature that required saving from some imperfection that He could have made perfect? Christians must satisfy themselves of such matters, admittedly not a difficult task, but also those they would persuade, that God is not an idiot. Though almighty and perfect, He deliberately made some imperfection that required Him to incarnate Himself as one of His own creatures to suffer death to save them from the imperfection He had anticipated.

Was this plan for the benefit of the hapless creature or the God? After all, 2000 years and about ten billion dead creatures later there still seems no sign that this salvation is working. The world is worse than ever it was, and among the worse criminals are Christians. The idea that God is such a moron that He has to atone for something He already knew about says something about those who believe it. If there is an almighty God, He is by definition almighty, and not an imbecile, so the imbeciles must be the Christians themselves.

Only idiots could believe that a God who is capable of making the universe, or so we are told, could only think of doing a feeble conjuring trick to impress gullible people in a gullible place in a period of history when ordinary people were indeed particularly gullible. Since then, even though people are much more sophisticated and less gullible, God has seen no good reason to repeat His trick or produce a genuinely impressive one. The Christian tale has all the hallmarks of confidence trickery. God does His trick and it is not reported by reliable witnesses but by witnesses that even the bible describes as halfwits".

Did they bring their own manacles and chains with them too, or were these kindly provided by their host families?

Did you not read my post. You are thinking of the black slave trade of more recent times.

I particularly like this arguement from the site I quoted above;

Why do people say they don't believe in God and then proceed to blame everything on Him?

This is how stupid atheists are.

Do you do as God tells you? Of course you don't. It is people who cause all the trouble, so don't go blaming someone who you say doesn't exist. That's just plain silly.

Let the bible speak!



When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)


However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)


If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)


When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)


Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)


The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)


Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

You are confusing The Old Testment with the New Testament. Jesus, and as a result Christianity is New Testament.

Why do people say they don't believe in God and then proceed to blame everything on Him?

This is how stupid atheists are.

Do you do as God tells you? Of course you don't. It is people who cause all the trouble, so don't go blaming someone who you say doesn't exist. That's just plain silly.

Oy! I'm happy enough for you to have your faith in as far as it doesn't impact on those who don't share it. I would even agree that there are people who claim to be atheist, but who display such anger towards those who believe that I can only conclude that secretly they're not atheist - they are just angry that God could let them be so unhappy .

I'm not putting up with 'Stupid atheists' though. There's far more stupidity in fundamentalist religion than any other belief system. Willful stupidity most of the time.

Oy! I'm happy enough for you to have your faith in as far as it doesn't impact on those who don't share it. I would even agree that there are people who claim to be atheist, but who display such anger towards those who believe that I can only conclude that secretly they're not atheist - they are just angry that God could let them be so unhappy .

I'm not putting up with 'Stupid atheists' though. There's far more stupidity in fundamentalist religion than any other belief system. Willful stupidity most of the time.

I phrased it badly, I should have said the "stupid things that atheists say." :)

Fair enough. I'd still lump the people you were talking about (and yes, I agree they do exist) as non-atheists. They're believers who are angry with the God they feel has abandoned them.

:P

What would you replace religion with Jabbers? Your own philosophy perhaps? Remember children, and you have a young daughter don’t you, pick up on their parent’s attitudes very quickly and we can all read your innuendoes which may be innocent fun but it gives the green light to the sort of behaviour that can lead to early pregnancy. If I had to choose a roll model for my grandchildren and the choice was between a book of your quotes and the teaching of Jesus I would give the smutty jokes a miss and choose Christianity any day.

It may sound amazing but its possible for mankind to be good to each other without the need for ancient relisions that have little or no place in society today.

In not in the least bit religious yet Ive never killed, stolen, coveted my neighbours ox.. (Ok maybe his sheep) or comitted any kind of crime.

I havent blown up abortion clinics, nailed anyone to any crosses, (Lately) looked doen at my nose at people who have religions, nor have I cause any early pregnancys by saying the word "Snot".

If I have, Id love to meet the lady in question...

As for my kids, theyre growing up to be kind and gentle people and the nearest they ever came to a church is when they pass it on a bus.

Religion doesnt need to be replaced, just consigned to the annals of history where it belongs.

Isnt there a tract in your bible that says something like "When I became a man, I put down my childish things" ? Well that goes the the human race as well as the individual. Its time to put down our childish things and march forward into the future, not hang on to supersition and stay in the past.

A religion is a set of values, beliefs and practices. If you have those you have religion, hence the many sects.

Sorry Jabbers, you have religion.

Fair enough. I'd still lump the people you were talking about (and yes, I agree they do exist) as non-atheists. They're believers who are angry with the God they feel has abandoned them.

:P

Thank you, you sound nice.

You are confusing The Old Testment with the New Testament. Jesus, and as a result Christianity is New Testament.

3 of the quotes are from the New Testament :(

3 of the quotes are from the New Testament :(

And they are about having respect for those above you like I have to do at work, and if I do wrong I will be punished.

And they are about having respect for those above you like I have to do at work, and if I do wrong I will be punished.

Come to think of it when I applied for my last job it did say: Council workers, obey your line manager with deep respect and fear! I believe it also said council workers who are not even aware that they are doing wrong will be only lightly punished.

Yup, there have been a lot of people sacked for fraud over the years where I work. People fiddling their time sheets, stealing equipment, using the firms materials for their own private jobs, doing private work in companies time, and some of these people have ended up with criminal records, one man I know hasn't worked since.

Yup, there have been a lot of people sacked for fraud over the years where I work. People fiddling their time sheets, stealing equipment, using the firms materials for their own private jobs, doing private work in companies time, and some of these people have ended up with criminal records, one man I know hasn't worked since.

That's senior management for you :rolleyes:

The Sheffield Councils code of conduct book is a really thick missive.

CODE OF CONDUCT
• The City Council has a written Code of Conduct so that employees are expressly clear of the expectations the City Council has of their personal conduct

The Sheffield Councils code of conduct book is a really thick missive.

CODE OF CONDUCT
• The City Council has a written Code of Conduct so that employees are expressly clear of the expectations the City Council has of their personal conduct

Wasn't the SCC's Code Of Conduct passed down orally and on Post-Its for many hundreds of years and finally written down at the Synod Of Attercliffe in 393?

Wasn't the SCC's Code Of Conduct passed down orally and on Post-Its for many hundreds of years and finally written down at the Synod Of Attercliffe in 393?

And that says it all.

And that says it all.

OK I admit it, the CoC is inerrant and divinely inspired. JC is my saviour!

(JC being Jonathan Crossley-Holland of course)

I feel sick.

I feel sick.

Do I need to say it? :hihi:

Wasn't the SCC's Code Of Conduct passed down orally and on Post-Its for many hundreds of years and finally written down at the Synod Of Attercliffe in 393?

I love it :hihi: No doubt it will be argued over by personnel managers who will be unable to agree the exact form of disciplinary measures, causing a splinter group to fall away from the Institute of Personnel and Development and set itself up as a separate office, particularly when it is found out that women were not allowed to discipline male council employees.

There is a God. I prayed at the start of the season that Leeds would get beat 1-0 by a late goal in the play-off final. Thank you God and for making it sweeter by allowing Donny Rovers to do your work. Amen.

There is a God. I prayed at the start of the season that Leeds would get beat 1-0 by a late goal in the play-off final. Thank you God and for making it sweeter by allowing Donny Rovers to do your work. Amen.


Advise to football supporters.

Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly (football spectators), comfort the feeble-minded (football supporters), support the weak (because they are not strong enough to play), be patient toward all men (especially those who beat you). See that none render evil for evil unto any man (football hooligans); but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men (instead of wasting your time watching 22 grown men kicking a bag of wind).

(1Thesolians 5:14)

(John 3:12 and a half)

"This book is a load of old rubbish. You are far better off forgetting about this nonsense because it didn't happen, and there is no such thing as 'god'."

The next page does, however, offer a counter-argument based upon the existence of cooked breakfasts.

"This book is a load of old rubbish. You are far better off forgetting about this nonsense because it didn't happen, and there is no such thing as 'god'."



Amen. :hihi:

Have you got the right passage John, because this is John chapter three and it is so true and it so applicable to you and angle20.

John chapter 3 starting at verse 9.

"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.

"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

Put the book down, it could've been written by anyone. :)

Put the book down, it could've been written by anyone. :)

We know who wrote it, they were mortal men, but like some people today they were divinely inspired and couldn't have written some of the things they did had they not been. :)

Either that or they found some fantastic magic mushrooms. :D They section folks who hear voices in their heads today you know. :loopy:

Advise to football supporters.

Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly (football spectators), comfort the feeble-minded (football supporters), support the weak (because they are not strong enough to play), be patient toward all men (especially those who beat you). See that none render evil for evil unto any man (football hooligans); but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men (instead of wasting your time watching 22 grown men kicking a bag of wind).

(1Thesolians 5:14)

No worse than getting yourself nailed to a cross at 32 years of age for supporting the wrong side.:confused:

Either that or they found some fantastic magic mushrooms. :D They section folks who hear voices in their heads today you know. :loopy:

You mean like many of our great men and women who are inspired to do great things?

(John 3:12 and a half)

"This book is a load of old rubbish. You are far better off forgetting about this nonsense because it didn't happen, and there is no such thing as 'god'."

The next page does, however, offer a counter-argument based upon the existence of cooked breakfasts.

Well said john, i'd stop religious tax concessions untill they stop lying from the
the pulpit/mosque.


As all thinking people have figured out, the God of Christianity is a reflection of human mind at different points in evolution.
God is filled with wrath, revenge, vanity, hatred, jealousy... all human characteristics. He either instills desires of all sorts in us or, as if he were playing some sick game, allows a Satan to be created who instills in us these desires, then this God forbids us to satisfy them.
We are asked to believe this completely criminally insane fellow stands by while hell is being created; (If it was he who created it, he becomes even more of a sicko) as a place in which his anger and revenge can be satisfied.
To the above unpleasant human traits attributed to our man-made Caligula look-a-like has been added prayer. We can curry favor from this psychotic by prayer, a form of begging. God will let children be brutally tortured, raped and murdered unless he is sufficiently begged.
Is God perfect? God won't become perfect until the quality of mind creating God becomes perfected.

No worse than getting yourself nailed to a cross at 32 years of age for supporting the wrong side.:confused:

The wrong side being those evil so-and-so people who put him there?

What do you call people who nail someone to a wooden cross and leave them suspended there for hours and stick a spear in their side and laugh and joke while they die in agony? would you say a fair description of these people would be to describe them as barbarians? You keep knocking the nails in don't you.

What do you call people who nail someone to a wooden cross and leave them suspended there for hours and stick a spear in their side and laugh and joke while they die in agony?

Erm.... Romans?

Erm.... Romans?

That as well.

The wrong side being those evil so-and-so people who put him there?

What do you call people who nail someone to a wooden cross and leave them suspended there for hours and stick a spear in their side and laugh and joke while they die in agony? would you say a fair description of these people would be to describe them as barbarians? You keep knocking the nails in don't you.

Getting nailed to a cross was standard punishment in those days in that place, no big deal. Jesus wasn't a Christian, he was of the old Jewish faith.

Organised Christianity came about in 42 ad when the first Pope st Peter was
installed, and its been nothing but trouble and lies ever since, including
the virgin mary nonesense.:confused:

Getting nailed to a cross was standard punishment in those days in that place, no big deal. Jesus wasn't a Christian, he was of the old Jewish faith.

Organised Christianity came about in 42 ad when the first Pope st Peter was
installed, and its been nothing but trouble and lies ever since, including
the virgin mary nonesense.:confused:

That is when the people who followed Christ's teaching began to call themselves Christians.

You keep saying what a wicked world we live in, and I agree with you on that, so let me ask you who is governing the world, and remember there are many different ideologies. But one thing for sure it isn't Christians who are in charge, it is your lot, the same people who crucified Jesus and they are still doing it today and a right mess you are all making of things. :(

That is when the people who followed Christ's teaching began to call themselves Christians.

You keep saying what a wicked world we live in, and I agree with you on that, so let me ask you who is governing the world, and remember there are many different ideologies. But one thing for sure it isn't Christians who are in charge, it is your lot, the same people who crucified Jesus and they are still doing it today and a right mess you are all making of things. :(


O, you do agree then, that Jesus was not a Christian?

Christianity ruled Europe for many centuries, Kings were in awe of it.
Some of those Popes were insane [Psychosis]One inquisition lasted for 350 years, they were far worse that Hitlers regime.

Whats doing them today is lies from the pulpit, virgin birth, rising from the dead, the lords prayer. Millions of us can see quite quite plainly that it is not a 'caring' God, what is the point of praying to to anything that does not care?

The whole thing is like some pretentious comic opera, as Einstien said "childish":loopy:



2





















/

All you are doing is having one almighty whinge like people do say about hospitals, or teachers, or people in local government who work their socks off giving years of dedicated service and all you can do is moan, moan, moan and it gets very tiresome. If you want to do something positive to help then go and work for a year in Africa or other needy country and you may come back realising how lucky you are, but for goodness sake get up off your backside if you feel that strongly about it and do something positive to help people.

As for being childish, what do children do a lot of the time, they moan, moan, moan.

We have to bear in mind here (and I never tire of telling the world that Im not fond of religion) that the religious are, at their cores good people. At least these days.

Who would you rather have as neighbours or friends? Christians or good Muslims? Or some of the scum that inhabit our housing estates and towns? Who would you feel safer with as you were walking along the street at night? The religious? Or hoodies?

Break it all down to its commonest denomonator and the religious arent there to make life miserable for everyone, but you can count on the fact that a lot of people who arent religious seem to be.

All you are doing is having one almighty whinge like people do say about hospitals, or teachers, or people in local government who work their socks off giving years of dedicated service and all you can do is moan, moan, moan and it gets very tiresome. If you want to do something positive to help then go and work for a year in Africa or other needy country and you may come back realising how lucky you are, but for goodness sake get up off your backside if you feel that strongly about it and do something positive to help people.

As for being childish, what do children do a lot of the time, they moan, moan, moan.

Glad you agree, moaning, and begging in churches/mosques is negative
and childish. At last a gleam of hope.

Glad you agree, moaning, and begging in churches/mosques is negative
and childish. At last a gleam of hope.

Christians sing praises to God. You don't know much do you.

Anyway I'm getting tired of listening to nonsense.

Thank you Jabbers for your contribution, it was nice of you.

I feel we're getting a bit adrift here; unlike Grahame in #25, most of those I know who describe themselves as Christian fundamentalists believe Adam and Eve were the first people, and appeared in the first week of 7 days each of 24 hours each of 60 minutes .
Maybe my football analogy was not a good one; but they do believe that in any conflict between the Holy Book and our observation of the natural world, the Book must be held true, and our observation held wrong. Thus there is no need of earthly learning, as everything we need is in the book.
Now I accept a power above/behind/controlling the Universe; a simple name for that power is GOD. I accept that laws, whether "natural" like gravity, or "ethical" such as "Do unto others as you would they would do to you" exist, and are the result of that power.
I accept that Jesus lived, and that he showed that these laws can be lived, and I want to follow his example.
I also accept that the simple explanation of geological processes is that they have occurred in the past much as they do now; that deposition of sediments to build massive layers of rock takes millenia; that gradual change in families of living creatures takes millenia; that fossil evidence shows evolutionary change. So I must reject the fundamentalist view that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old.
BUT -- this is due to my prejudice toward science, and the view that observation and experiment show us the truth; had I been reared a fundamentalist, I would have believed that observation and experiment were unnecessary where they confirmed the Book (after all, it was in there already), and positively dangerous where they contradicted the Book, as they led men to heresy.
For some reason, people think that to follow Jesus you MUST believe in that greatbottleneck in the history of life, when not onlt cheetahs (which biologists tell us show evidence of descent from only a few individuals long ago) but all life descends from two of "unclean beasts" (e.g. pigs) and maybe seven of "clean beasts" (e.g. sheep) which rode in the Ark with Noah. (BTW remember that he sacrificed some of the cleanies on landing)
I can take Noah as a story, full of richness and profitable for instruction, but NOT literally true, and still believe in Jesus as an example for my life. It may be some tales of Jesus are exagerrated, but still, he's the man for me to follow. Whether his mother was a virgin - who really cares? (OK Pope Benedict does!)

But one thing for sure it isn't Christians who are in charge, it is your lot, the same people who crucified Jesus and they are still doing it today and a right mess you are all making of things. :(

I really don't get this bit, Grahame! Sorry.... PT established for us that it was the Romans who crucified Jesus. Since the Fall of the Roman Empire, I don't think they're in charge of much these days. However, two biggies who are inndeed in charge of quite a lot (and are making a right mess of things) are Bush and Brown - both of whom are Christians, I believe.

So, who/what did you mean?? :huh:

Bush and Brown - both of whom are Christians, I believe.
:

Both of whom CLAIM to be Christians!

By their works you will know them

Ban the abortion is good... the abortion rates of this country at the moment are huge and if these where people being killed instead of fetuses then the world would know about it. If you dont want to get pregnant then dont have sex or wear protection.

Abortion statistics show mass murder.... read them it's true

Erm... on the blasphemy thing, I don't like it. They will lock me up and throw away the key...

O, you do agree then, that Jesus was not a Christian?
/

Before Mt. Everest was named, what was the world's tallest mountain? Yes, it still was the tallest even if the name hadn't been bestowed.
So Jesus led a Christian life, and Christians follow his example.
Was trotsky a Trotskyite? Was Moseley a Mosleyite? Is a founder/leader a member of his group?
If I want to model my life on Jesus, I am a Christian. He didn't have to be; the title of Christ (the Anointed One) was given to him.

I really don't get this bit, Grahame! Sorry.... PT established for us that it was the Romans who crucified Jesus. Since the Fall of the Roman Empire, I don't think they're in charge of much these days. However, two biggies who are inndeed in charge of quite a lot (and are making a right mess of things) are Bush and Brown - both of whom are Christians, I believe.

So, who/what did you mean?? :huh:

It was down to the Jews and as they were not the rulers of the land they turned to the Romans who were, so both the Jews and the Romans were responsible for nailing Christ to the Cross.

Who rules the world today you ask, well people are in charge of governments that is true but don't look at the flesh or the outward appearance, don't listen to the words, don't listen to what they call themselves, look at their actions and by their fruits shall ye know them. They and other world leaders will push aside anyone who is a threat to their power.

(As with J Fish in post 76. I have only just seen it.)

Christians sing praises to God. You don't know much do you.

Anyway I'm getting tired of listening to nonsense.

Thank you Jabbers for your contribution, it was nice of you.

But you dont believe in God yourself. What is the point of building and buying large buildings to pray to anything, that quite obviously does not care.:help:

It was down to the Jews and as they were not the rulers of the land they turned to the Romans who were, so both the Jews and the Romans were responsible for nailing Christ to the Cross.

Who rules the world today you ask, well people are in charge of governments that is true but don't look at the flesh or the outward appearance, don't listen to the words, don't listen to what they call themselves, look at their actions and by their fruits shall ye know them. They and other world leaders will push aside anyone who is a threat to their power.

(As with J Fish in post 76. I have only just seen it.)

So you're saying it's Jews who rule the world? You're a bit too guarded in your words for a young'un like me to understand what you're alluding to, y'know. I need the consipiracy theory spelling out so I get it, please. :)

We have to bear in mind here (and I never tire of telling the world that Im not fond of religion) that the religious are, at their cores good people. At least these days.

Who would you rather have as neighbours or friends? Christians or good Muslims? Or some of the scum that inhabit our housing estates and towns? Who would you feel safer with as you were walking along the street at night? The religious? Or hoodies?

Break it all down to its commonest denomonator and the religious arent there to make life miserable for everyone, but you can count on the fact that a lot of people who arent religious seem to be.

Jabber, the most violent part of America is the bible belt. We've also had
probs in N.Ireland. Being religious never did stop people being violent.:confused:

So you're saying it's Jews who rule the world? You're a bit too guarded in your words for a young'un like me to understand what you're alluding to, y'know. I need the consipiracy theory spelling out so I get it, please. :)

The Jews and the Romans were responsible for the death of Christ but that was two thousand years ago, what rules the world today are people with evil hearts like those who crucified Christ. It is always down to them, history I mean. :)

Jabber, the most violent part of America is the bible belt. We've also had
probs in N.Ireland. Being religious never did stop people being violent.:confused:

You don't know the difference between man made religion and God given Christianity.

One is divisive and the other unites in love. Men of hatred, men of war, men with guns are winning.

(At the moment)

We need you to work for love and peace. Thanks.

I am reminded here of The Virgin Mary (Mary Whitehouse). I believe there is a programme on about her this week which might be interesting.

I am reminded here of The Virgin Mary (Mary Whitehouse). I believe there is a programme on about her this week which might be interesting.





He wouldnt know what to do. After nearly distroying Catholicism in this country, he requested and got ,a full blown Catholic funeral when he died:confused:

[QUOTE=Grahame;3579725]You don't know the difference between man made religion and God given Christianity.



Your definitly show signs of schizophrenia.You've already stated you do not believe in God:confused:

[QUOTE=Grahame;3579725]You don't know the difference between man made religion and God given Christianity.



Your definitly show signs of schizophrenia.You've already stated you do not believe in God:confused:

...You what?

You don't know the difference between man made religion and God given Christianity.


I think perhaps we are confusing Christian with Christ-like. In our modern world, the two are quite different.

[QUOTE=jobee;3579776]

...You what?

On another OP. You have memory problems as well


"I intended to quit as soon as I earned my Presidential knee pads"

[Monica Lewinsky]

I think perhaps we are confusing Christian with Christ-like. In our modern world, the two are quite different.

I think you have hit the nail on the head there Berlin. That is so very true. Thank you. :)

You don't know the difference between man made religion and God given Christianity.

One is divisive and the other unites in love. Men of hatred, men of war, men with guns are winning.

(At the moment)

We need you to work for love and peace. Thanks.

But your lot have had 2000 years to shape up, and, have failed miserably.

And how much longer do you need to prove this Goddy thing[nice little earner]:confused:

The Pope is an Athiest but hides it well.

[QUOTE=Grahame;3579824]

On another OP. You have memory problems as well


"I intended to quit as soon as I earned my Presidential knee pads"

[Monica Lewinsky]

You have lost me. Just to set the record straight and as I think everyone knows, I believe in God.

But your lot have had 2000 years to shape up, and, have failed miserably.

And how much longer do you need to prove this Goddy thing[nice little earner]:confused:

It's your lot who are in the majority and who are running things unfortunately.

[QUOTE=jobee;3579876]

You have lost me. Just to set the record straight and as I think everyone knows, I believe in God.

Do you believe in the Archbishop of Canterbury though?

[QUOTE=Grahame;3579909]

Do you believe in the Archbishop of Canterbury though?

I know he exists but I know nothing about him. Is he in the Bible? (Joking)

More to the point does HE believe in the Bible?

[QUOTE=jobee;3579876]

You have lost me. Just to set the record straight and as I think everyone knows, I believe in God.

Ok, thats fine, but dont you think 'it' should show its face now a again, just to put the record straight. THis waiting game is definitly costing him customers.:confused:

The Pope is an Athiest but hides it well.

NO kidding, that wouldn't surprise me at all. Religion is the biggest money making con job that ever hit the planet, but, you've gotta blame the customers. [nice little earner]

[QUOTE=Grahame;3579909]

Ok, thats fine, but dont you think 'it' should show its face now a again, just to put the record straight. THis waiting game is definitly costing him customers.:confused:

We might be looking at 'it' and not know what it is?

It could be life? Life is all around us like God and we just take it forgranted don't we.

[QUOTE=jobee;3580021]

We might be looking at 'it' and not know what it is?

It could be life? Life is all around us like God and we just take it forgranted don't we.


Thats fine, but I see no need to spend trillions on buildings to pray to 'it'.
After all, millions in pain and incapacitated must be glad to get out of 'it' and away from 'it'. Never the less, once man thought of 'it', 'It' became jobs and pensions. Nice little earner. The oxygen of religion IS money, and 'it' is the sales gimmick and dangling carrot. 'To die and know nothing is heaven'.


I intended to quit as soon as I earned my Presidential knee pads"

[Monica Lewinsky]

[QUOTE=Grahame;3580049]


Thats fine, but I see no need to spend trillions on buildings to pray to 'it'.
After all, millions in pain and incapacitated must be glad to get out of 'it' and away from 'it'. Never the less, once man thought of 'it', 'It' became jobs and pensions. Nice little earner. The oxygen of religion IS money, and 'it' is the sales gimmick and dangling carrot. 'To die and know nothing is heaven'.


I intended to quit as soon as I earned my Presidential knee pads"

[Monica Lewinsky]

You are right about the money aspect. My father was a minister of religion and we were as poor as church mice.

[QUOTE=jobee;3580101]

You are right about the money aspect. My father was a minister of religion and we were as poor as church mice.

Maybe he wasn't so good at 'it'. I remember going to school with holes in my shoes and the local vicar was living in a great big vicarage. There was money for some, and all of them were quite well dressed.
'To die and know nothing is heaven'

I intended to quit as soon as I earned my Presidential knee pads"

[Monica Lewinsky]

[QUOTE=Grahame;3580117]

Maybe he wasn't so good at 'it'. I remember going to school with holes in my shoes and the local vicar was living in a great big vicarage. There was money for some, and all of them were quite well dressed.
'To die and know nothing is heaven'

I intended to quit as soon as I earned my Presidential knee pads"

[Monica Lewinsky]


It depends on what church you belong to, the two mainstream churches pay a salary but our church didn't, it was down to the congregation to build their own church and after that they paid all the running expenses.

[QUOTE=jobee;3580101]

You are right about the money aspect. My father was a minister of religion and we were as poor as church mice.


And if your father had been an imman, you would have been praising allah.

Interesting point earlier in the thread, why did the omnipotent god of christians create hell and the devil?

A question for anyone who seeks guidance thorugh prayer - what do you make of the following?


There was a study involving people who were soon to vote on the issue of stem cell research and who strongly believed God guided them by answering prayer -

Christians who supported stem cell research were asked to pray to God for guidance on how to vote, they then reported the answer and rated how sure they were that they had received guidance. Most were very sure god had guided them and that god agreed with their view. None were told by God to change their view.

Similarly Christians who opposed stem cell research were asked to pray on how to vote. Again most were very sure god had guided them and that god agreed with their view. None were told by God to change their view.

[QUOTE=Grahame;3580117]


And if your father had been an imman, you would have been praising allah.

Interesting point earlier in the thread, why did the omnipotent god of christians create hell and the devil?

Not on your life. Firstly did you do everything you were told by your parents? Secondly haven't you got a mind of your own? Thirdly there have been numerous people on here who have not followed their parents lead? Fourthly, do not assume I don't have a mind of my own. I have always done my own thing as people who know me will testify. No one tells me anything, do you hear. All I can say is you don't know me very well.

As for Hell I'm not sure about but what I do know is that we have a choice the same as the devil who God did not create as a devil.

A question for anyone who seeks guidance thorugh prayer - what do you make of the following?


There was a study involving people who were soon to vote on the issue of stem cell research and who strongly believed God guided them by answering prayer -

Christians who supported stem cell research were asked to pray to God for guidance on how to vote, they then reported the answer and rated how sure they were that they had received guidance. Most were very sure god had guided them and that god agreed with their view. None were told by God to change their view.

Similarly Christians who opposed stem cell research were asked to pray on how to vote. Again most were very sure god had guided them and that god agreed with their view. None were told by God to change their view.

Scraping the bottom of the barrel now aren't we Norbert, looking at human frailty and blaming it on God.

Scraping the bottom of the barrel now aren't we Norbert, looking at human frailty and blaming it on God.

Grahame.... did God really exist or was he just a figment of Jesus' imagination?

Grahame.... did God really exist or was he just a figment of Jesus' imagination?

God existed a long time before Jesus who was only 2000 years ago. I believe in the creator God and we can't deny creation can we?

I can see a point in "large buildings", as they are meeting places for people with a common belief.
As to belief in God, what do you mean by God?
1/. The cranky old bearded guy in the sky with a fistful of thunderbolts? NO WAY!
2/. The capricious spiritual being who "sends one to heaven and nine to hell, all for (his) glory, and not for any good or ill they've done" (apologies to RB)? NO WAY!
3/. A power beyond our understaning, "over"/"behind"/"controlling" the Universe, with laws we are learning, whose laws we flout at our peril? YES!

God existed a long time before Jesus who was only 2000 years ago. I believe in the creator God and we can't deny creation can we?


The EU has banned the the teaching of creationism in science classes.

After this meeting that is.

STRASBOURG, France (Reuters) - Europe's main human rights body voted on Thursday to urge schools across the continent to firmly oppose the teaching of creationist and "intelligent design" views in their science classes.
The Council of Europe's Parliamentary Assembly approved a resolution saying attacks on the theory of evolution were rooted "in forms of religious extremism" and amounted to a dangerous assault on science and human rights.
The text said European schools should "resist presentation of creationist ideas in any discipline other than religion." It said the "intelligent design" view defended by some United States conservatives was an updated version of creationism.
Creationism says God made the world in six days as depicted in the Bible. Intelligent design argues some life forms are too complex to have evolved according to Charles Darwin's theory and needed an unnamed higher intelligence to develop as they have.
Anne Brasseur, an Assembly member from Luxembourg who updated an earlier draft resolution, said the report showed how creationists -- most recently a shadowy Turkish Muslim writer Harun Yahya -- were trying to infiltrate European schools.
"The purpose of this report is to warn against the attempt to pass off a belief -- creationism -- as a science and to teach the theses of this belief in science classes
http://uk.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUKL0417855220071004
YOUR QUOTE: National Institute of Justice

Your Website: http://neahin.org/programs/schoolsafety/gunsafety/statistics.htm

WEBSITE REFERRAL: http://uk.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUKL0417855220071004

We never get a straight answer to the simple question -

1. If the bible is meant to be in any way "divinely inspired", surely god would have “inspired” people to write that slavery was a moral obscenity – he is alleged to have created the universe, so it should not have been too hard for him to slip this in.

Or

Is it just that the bible, like all the other religious texts, is just a work of humans, rooted in the cultue and knowledge of the time?

I don't have a web-site Jobee apart from one on Robin Hood and I haven't seen that one before.

Back on topic, I just think the word "God" was coined by the ancient people to describe the origin of the cosmos. As the cosmos exists therefore so must God, but what form God takes I don't know and it could be that God is nature, or God is life I really don't know and neither does it affect me one way or the other because when and if scientists discover the origin of the cosmos they will by my definition have discovered God.

Why do people believe in something that dos not exist?
there is no god we are all descended from the same thing and evolved over millions of years through natural selection
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin.

I don't have a web-site Jobee apart from one on Robin Hood and I haven't seen that one before.

Back on topic, I just think the word "God" was coined by the ancient people to describe the origin of the cosmos. As the cosmos exists therefore so must God, but what form God takes I don't know and it could be that God is nature, or God is life I really don't know and neither does it affect me one way or the other because when and if scientists discover the origin of the cosmos they will by my definition have discovered God.

No one said you did have a web site, your just being sarcastic.
The EU has banned the teaching of creationism in Science classes.
Why? because it belongs with mytholgy.

Read the link.

We never get a straight answer to the simple question -

1. If the bible is meant to be in any way "divinely inspired", surely god would have “inspired” people to write that slavery was a moral obscenity – he is alleged to have created the universe, so it should not have been too hard for him to slip this in.

Or

Is it just that the bible, like all the other religious texts, is just a work of humans, rooted in the cultue and knowledge of the time?

The Bible is several things, it is partly allegorical (the parables and the Garden of Eadon for example) it is partly history, it is an account of their own times, and it is prophetic. The example of slavery you talk about which wasn't slavery as we think of it, but more like Edwardian servants who were given a home and security, is an account of life as it was then and is nothing like the modern slavery as we think of it today.

And yes the Bible was divinely inspired and we can see that from the fact it speaks to us even today along with its continuity, its unity, its prophesy, and its wisdom.

And if your father had been an imman, you would have been praising allah.

Interesting point earlier in the thread, why did the omnipotent god of christians create hell and the devil?

Just to be slightly pedantic - it's the same god. Islam, Judaism and Christianity all stem from the same root and worship the same god.

Why do people believe in something that dos not exist?
there is no god we are all descended from the same thing and evolved over millions of years through natural selection
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin.


It doesn't matter Craig, Christians follow the teaching of Jesus, we are here today talking to each other and what happened billions of years ago is outside of our understanding. I think the same as a lot of scientists think, that there was an origin and that is fact, not a belief. :)

It doesn't matter Craig, Christians follow the teaching of Jesus, we are here today talking to each other and what happened billions of years ago is outside of our understanding. I think the same as a lot of scientists think, that there was an origin and that is fact, not a belief. :)

Ah but Grahame, you have hit on the nub of the matter. The origin: who made it happen, and who created whoever made it happen? ;)

[QUOTE=Bloomdido;3580400]

Just to be slightly pedantic - it's the same god. Islam, Judaism and Christianity all stem from the same root and worship the same god.

Hello Berlin. :)

You will be familiar with Daniel who was thrown into the lions den because he worshipped a different God from the Babylonians and the Meeds and Persians which is the home of Islam. Their God was not the God of the Jews.

Hello Berlin. :)

You will be familiar with Daniel who was thrown into the lions den because he worshipped a different God from the Babylonians and the Meeds and Persians which is the home of Islam. Their God was not the God of the Jews.

Luckily, I am not quite that old.

Abraham is the common ancestor for all of the Judaic, Christian and Islamic religions.

The Bible is several things, it is partly allegorical (the parables and the Garden of Eadon for example) it is partly history, it is an account of their own times, and it is prophetic. The example of slavery you talk about which wasn't slavery as we think of it, but more like Edwardian servants who were given a home and security, is an account of life as it was then and is nothing like the modern slavery as we think of it today.
.

I'm sorry Graham, that is just yet more convenient selective re-reading on your behalf. If this was the case, ie it was some jolly "Upstairs and downstairs" style relationship,why does the bible include the line

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property."

The bible is either divinely inspired or it is not. There is no ducking the issue.

Why do people believe in something that dos not exist?
there is no god we are all descended from the same thing and evolved over millions of years through natural selection
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin.

Because they lack confidence, religion is all about lack of confidence.
Unscrupulous men preyed on this lack of confidence, and made a living telling
lies about super beings in the sky, and the're still telling lies from the pulpit today. I would ban 'organised' religion eventually. But first I would stop their tax concessions until they do stop telling lies from the pulpit.
Like, gods,virgin births, dead men walking, etc. Prove it, or shut up shop.

No one said you did have a web site, your just being sarcastic.
The EU has banned the teaching of creationism in Science classes.
Why? because it belongs with mytholgy.

Read the link.

You said "My web site" and I took you literally. However.

So the EU has banned the teaching of creationism, and no I haven't read the link because it doesn't bother me. I admit to having problems with some of the things the fundamentalists say and I think they may be doing Christianity a disservice, so if it stops Christians looking foolish then as far as I am concerned they have done a good thing and providing the schools teach Christianity properly and without bias then all well and good. :)

Luckily, I am not quite that old.

Abraham is the common ancestor for all of the Judaic, Christian and Islamic religions.

That is true, but Mohammed came many generations later and he had his own ideas that were so far removed from Christianity that the Christians of the day rejected him and that led to the divide that we have today between the Jews and Muslims.

You said "My web site" and I took you literally. However.

So the EU has banned the teaching of creationism, and no I haven't read the link because it doesn't bother me. I admit to having problems with some of the things the fundamentalists say and I think they may be doing Christianity a disservice, so if it stops Christians looking foolish then as far as I am concerned they have done a good thing and providing the schools teach Christianity properly and without bias then all well and good. :)

What do schools need to teach religion for? The vast majority of people are
behaving themselves and always did. They have/had no choice.

Why do people believe in something that dos not exist?
there is no god we are all descended from the same thing and evolved over millions of years through natural selection
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin.


One could also ask questions on 'evolution' (since it was formulated by Darwin in 1859, the theory of evolution has drawn the attention of scientists and the general public .
But it has its flaws: it is not only the “ape-man” link that is missing, but indeed no other intermediate species in the long (imaginary) chain of evolution, starting from the simplest protozoa, could be identified.

If evolution was ever possible, we should have now on earth billions of intermediary species, both in types and numbers. Also if such mutations ever occurred in ancient times, paleontologists should have found among the fossils countless traces of intermediary species. Paleontologists failed to find any. On the contrary, the oldest fossils of the Cambrian age earth strata proved that a wide variety of living organisms, that represent almost all basic animal divisions (phyla), appeared simultaneously, with no primitive predecessor.

That is true, but Mohammed came many generations later and he had his own ideas that were so far removed from Christianity that the Christians of the day rejected him and that led to the divide that we have today between the Jews and Muslims.

Then why do so many christians covert to Islam today (and have been doing for years and years). Its your own interpretation(of Islam) that has had you confused most of your life.

One could also ask questions on 'evolution' (since it was formulated by Darwin in 1859, the theory of evolution has drawn the attention of scientists and the general public .
But it has its flaws: it is not only the “ape-man” link that is missing, but indeed no other intermediate species in the long (imaginary) chain of evolution, starting from the simplest protozoa, could be identified.

If evolution was ever possible, we should have now on earth billions of intermediary species, both in types and numbers. Also if such mutations ever occurred in ancient times, paleontologists should have found among the fossils countless traces of intermediary species. Paleontologists failed to find any. On the contrary, the oldest fossils of the Cambrian age earth strata proved that a wide variety of living organisms, that represent almost all basic animal divisions (phyla), appeared simultaneously, with no primitive predecessor.


Pllleeeeeesseee Bazooka, we have been through this a million times. Dont cut and post from lying creationist sites. There are millions of intermeadate species.

I thought all religions had statements about not bearing false witness!

One could also ask questions on 'evolution' (since it was formulated by Darwin in 1859, the theory of evolution has drawn the attention of scientists and the general public .
But it has its flaws: it is not only the “ape-man” link that is missing, but indeed no other intermediate species in the long (imaginary) chain of evolution, starting from the simplest protozoa, could be identified.

If evolution was ever possible, we should have now on earth billions of intermediary species, both in types and numbers. Also if such mutations ever occurred in ancient times, paleontologists should have found among the fossils countless traces of intermediary species. Paleontologists failed to find any. On the contrary, the oldest fossils of the Cambrian age earth strata proved that a wide variety of living organisms, that represent almost all basic animal divisions (phyla), appeared simultaneously, with no primitive predecessor.

YES, but religion 'made a meal' of their creationist theory, thus , saturating the planet with buildings. In 2000 years the've failed to prove it.
I would stop the tax concessions ' including VAT' without this proof.

Then why do so many christians covert to Islam today (and have been doing for years and years). Its your own interpretation(of Islam) that has had you confused most of your life.

Apart from PT the people I know who became Muslims did so because they married a Muslim and for no other reason.

There are far more Muslims who would like to convert to Christianity but they dare not for fear of being killed.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-500087/Imams-daughter-hiding-conversion-Christianity-sparked-death-threats.html

That is true, but Mohammed came many generations later and he had his own ideas that were so far removed from Christianity that the Christians of the day rejected him and that led to the divide that we have today between the Jews and Muslims.

The creation of islam also caused the crusades, which lasted 200 years.

What a damned menace organised religion has always been.

Apart from PT the people I know who became Muslims did so because they married a Muslim and for no other reason.

There are far more Muslims who would like to convert to Christianity but they dare not for fear of being killed.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-500087/Imams-daughter-hiding-conversion-Christianity-sparked-death-threats.html

And to believe the Daily Mail....:loopy:

Pllleeeeeesseee Bazooka, we have been through this a million times. Dont cut and post from lying creationist sites. There are millions of intermeadate species.

I thought all religions had statements about not bearing false witness!


Mr Goose- its not from lying creationist sites, I said before, I accept evolution on micro levels but not macro.
nobody has observed the grand narrative of Darwinism; that inanimate matter, simple chemicals organized themselves into a living cell and then reorganized and developed themselves to create all life on Earth. A Darwinist would say, "of course we don't observe it because it takes billions of years." But if that was the case, we should have been observing tiny bits of that evolutionary process. We don't see that either.

I'm sorry Graham, that is just yet more convenient selective re-reading on your behalf. If this was the case, ie it was some jolly "Upstairs and downstairs" style relationship,why does the bible include the line

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property."

The bible is either divinely inspired or it is not. There is no ducking the issue.

I said the Bible is divinely inspired in my reply and another reason we can trust the Bible is because it is a full and frank account that contains both good and bad.

I really don't know what your gripe is because it isn't so long ago we had capital punishment here and a lot of countries still do.

Apart from PT the people I know who became Muslims did so because they married a Muslim and for no other reason. There are far more Muslims who would like to convert to Christianity but they dare not for fear of being killed.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-500087/Imams-daughter-hiding-conversion-Christianity-sparked-death-threats.html

Don't kid yourself Grahame- converts (and I know MANY) became muslim from a christian background (some even missionaries/ priests) because they never had answers from the church and also were never able to see the logic in worshipping Jesus/Trinity. It does not hold up when carefully studied (as well as the Bible). But everyman to themself as i say.

like jobee said were is the solid evidence for virgin births, dead men walking, etc ????

The creation of islam also caused the crusades, which lasted 200 years.

What a damned menace organised religion has always been.

I'd have to agree.

As I said earlier, and I think Grahame eventually accepted that I was correct, Abraham is considered the common ancestor by all Judaic, Christiam and Islamic religions. They worship the same god. They differ on how exactly that god should be worshipped, and on who exactly has the "hotline" to him. Monty Python's "The Life Of Brian" summed it all up very succinctly for me: one sect followed Brian's sandal; the other his gourd. In fact "The Life Of Brian" pretty much hits the nail on the head regarding organised religion in general as far as I am concerned.

Mr Goose- its not from lying creationist sites, I said before, I accept evolution on micro levels but not macro.
nobody has observed the grand narrative of Darwinism; that inanimate matter, simple chemicals organized themselves into a living cell and then reorganized and developed themselves to create all life on Earth. A Darwinist would say, "of course we don't observe it because it takes billions of years." But if that was the case, we should have been observing tiny bits of that evolutionary process. We don't see that either.

If Darwin were wrong, would that prove creationism? I can't see how.

I'd have to agree.

As I said earlier, and I think Grahame eventually accepted that I was correct, Abraham is considered the common ancestor by all Judaic, Christiam and Islamic religions. They worship the same god. They differ on how exactly that god should be worshipped, and on who exactly has the "hotline" to him. Monty Python's "The Life Of Brian" summed it all up very succinctly for me: one sect followed Brian's sandal; the other his gourd. In fact "The Life Of Brian" pretty much hits the nail on the head regarding organised religion in general as far as I am concerned.

I did not accept that at all. Islam and Christianity are two entirely different religions. We do not worship the same God as I said before and you evaded replying. The God of Judah is not the same God as the god of the Meads and Persians.

Mr Goose- its not from lying creationist sites, I said before, I accept evolution on micro levels but not macro.
nobody has observed the grand narrative of Darwinism; that inanimate matter, simple chemicals organized themselves into a living cell and then reorganized and developed themselves to create all life on Earth. A Darwinist would say, "of course we don't observe it because it takes billions of years." But if that was the case, we should have been observing tiny bits of that evolutionary process. We don't see that either.

Im sorry Bazooka, we both know that this switch-arguing is a smokescreen. Evolution is a problem to those of a religious belief because of its implications, not the science behind it.

Points

1. Your previous post (no intermediate forms) is simply wrong, and I think you know this

2. This line "no visible evolution"/"no macro evolution" is also wrong, and I strongly suspect that you must know this as well.

Without arguing in length

Visible evolution
It is a "strawman" arguement to say evolutionary science expects to observe large changes directly. Evolution consists mainly of the accumulation of small changes over large periods of time. If we saw something like a fish turning into a frog in just a couple generations, we would have good evidence against evolution.

Macro evolution - ie "new" species
There are now plenty of examples - all with intermediate fossils
- Dinosuars to birds
- Land mammals to whales (including Hippos-hurrah!) - - all with intermediate fossils

Just because your leaflets and preachers keep repeating the lie that evolution cannot be proven does not actualy alter the truth.

Just because your leaflets and preachers keep repeating the lie that evolution cannot be proven does not actualy alter the truth.

We've been round and round the same arguments over the years. What have we got out of it?

The religionists keep on revelling in their own ignorance, debasing themselves by posting circular arguments, ignoring difficult questions, pasting from crackpot websites, and generally putting their fingers in their ears and saying “I’m not listening”, or “I don’t have to justify my belief to you.”

Conversely while debating religion on here I've learned loads about the subtlety and wonder of evolution, cosmology and philosophy. My life has been enhanced; I see the world with greater clarity with everything I learn. It gives meaning to my life to understand life, the universe and everything a tiny bit more each day.

Knowledge will forever grow; religion which thrives on ignorance and is stagnant and unchanging will wither. How brave were the early atheists in the days before we could explain how we came to be here, how our bodies work and our place in the universe!?

why is it only now that people are shouting about religion the world was set up by religuous laws now we dont want them whats happening to the world

why is it only now that people are shouting about religion the world was set up by religuous laws now we dont want them whats happening to the world

In english please:huh:

We've been round and round the same arguments over the years. What have we got out of it?
The religionists keep on revelling in their own ignorance, debasing themselves by posting circular arguments, ignoring difficult questions, pasting from crackpot websites, and generally putting their fingers in their ears and saying “I’m not listening”, or “I don’t have to justify my belief to you.”


Good point - I need to think before posting. I got drawn in again by Bazooka's posts. Sheesh - I even argued this way myself earlier down this thread

snip:

"However, I have come to the conclusion that debating with “fundamentalists” (or more specifically Young Earth Creationists) is not actually worth it. They believe in a world view that is so at odds with any form of reasonable honesty as they have been brainwashed in abandoning any form of critical thought.
Their views on existence is based on the fact that all of science - including geology, physics, biology, genetics, astronomy, zoology, cosmology, linguistics and especially evolution is a lie and a deliberate conspiracy by the atheists/communists. "

I just sometimes get irratated by the way religionists keep posting the same tosh & fibs, even if they know their arguments not even vaguely true.

can you forward some links or more details. I am curious. This is off subject/topic but always creeps up. So I would like to see the references

That is true, but Mohammed came many generations later and he had his own ideas that were so far removed from Christianity that the Christians of the day rejected him and that led to the divide that we have today between the Jews and Muslims.

This was your reply Grahame, confirming that Abraham is taken to be the common ancestor.

This was your reply Grahame, confirming that Abraham is taken to be the common ancestor.

Just remind me not to agree to anything again.

Common ancestor does not mean common or even similar religion.

Luckily, I am not quite that old.

Abraham is the common ancestor for all of the Judaic, Christian and Islamic religions.


Yes he is and the faith/belief he held is the same as what is held today by muslims- worship of ONE God. Mohammad is a decendent of his son Ishmael.
Jacob traces his decendency via Isaac- Jacob had 12 sons, one being Judah(from where 'Jew' is derived from). From Judah's sons (5)can be traced a link to David.
Rather than having someone like Grahame give you false info, read it up in a library.