The head of the Catholic Church in England and Wales has compared abortion to 'Nazi style birth control'

See here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4385573.stm

To be honest I think this is disgraceful, to compare the planned genocide of 6 million 'inferior' human beings out of hate and disgust to abortion is, in my view, disgusting. I understand catholic views on abortion and completely accept this, in fact i have not made my own mind up to what is right and wrong yet, but abortion should never be compared to Genocide, despite your views on it.

My view has always been that it is entirely the womans choice. Even if she was carrying my child. After all its her who carries it for 9 months.

I do agree with abortion, however i think the legal limit of 24 weeks need revising. As medical advances have been made it is possible that a baby born at 23 weeks can survive. Not many do but as it has happened the limit needs revising. I think 20 weeks should be the limit for abortions. As scanning has progressed the anomoly scan can be done sucessfuly at 18-19 weeks which would still allow parents a choice if problems were found. Abortion for serious abnormalities that would be fatal at birth should be allowed later.
This has happened before when the limit was reduced from 26 weeks to 24 weeks.
To compare abortion with the holocaust is irresponsible and just trying to create contraversy.

Originally posted by Sal22
I do agree with abortion, however i think the legal limit of 24 weeks need revising. As medical advances have been made it is possible that a baby born at 23 weeks can survive. Not many do but as it has happened the limit needs revising. I think 20 weeks should be the limit for abortions. As scanning has progressed the anomoly scan can be done sucessfuly at 18-19 weeks which would still allow parents a choice if problems were found. Abortion for serious abnormalities that would be fatal at birth should be allowed later.
This has happened before when the limit was reduced from 26 weeks to 24 weeks.
To compare abortion with the holocaust is irresponsible and just trying to create contraversy.

sounds like a pretty reasonable position to take. I agree pending further research.

Any Catholics out there? C'mon, you won't be persecuted (I hope, or should I say, I'd like to hope))

Lapsed catholic here ;) I used to be very narrowminded about abortion in my youth. Probably in part to do with a catholic upbringing and niavety. I definitely believe it's a woman choice. However I agree with Sall22 - 24 weeks/6 months!!needs revising.

Originally posted by AJ sheffield
My view has always been that it is entirely the womans choice. Even if she was carrying my child. After all its her who carries it for 9 months.

see I hate this point of view. It should be mainly the mother's choice but also imput from the father. Considering its likely to be the father paying for the little one he deserves some rights

I'd also say that Catholocism has probably made more peoples lives a misery than were killed in the Holocaust. To brand doctors who are doing their job as mass murderers is bang out of order.

Catholocism is by far the dirtiest of religions and the first one that should be eradicated. Here's the biggest example of fascism abroad in the world today.

Originally posted by robbie
see I hate this point of view. It should be mainly the mother's choice but also imput from the father. Considering its likely to be the father paying for the little one he deserves some rights

But if the woman decides to have an abortion the father doesn't have to pay maintenance anyway. At least the man and woman both have a choice in producing a pregnancy (except in the case of rape), unlike the aborted baby who has no choice at all.

It shouldn't be the fact that the father will be paying for the little one that gives him his rights in the choice of abortion. That makes it sound like the father is more concerned about his economical situation than the loss of a potential son or daughter.

I do believe in abortion but believe, like sal22, that the limit needs lowering to at least 18-19 weeks.

Sorry Robbie my post was too brief for me to explain my full view. What I mean is I dont have any ownership or control over any womans body. If a woman was pregnant with my child and she wanted an abortion for whatever reason I would accept it as her right as a human being and an individual to excercise control over her own body. I might not like the decision but as I said, I am not carrying it for 9 months. The rights of the woman are much more important than the rights of both the man and the unborn child, although only up to a point with regards to the latter, and even then only in certain circumstances.

The Cardinal should know his Catholic history a bit better. It was Pope Pious (I forget which one) who ignored The Holocost at the time it was happening even though he was quite aware of what wass going on.

Also, several high profile Nazi war criminals (such as Adolf Eichmann) were helped to escape to south America by the Catholic church after the war.

Originally posted by robbie
I'd also say that Catholocism has probably made more peoples lives a misery than were killed in the Holocaust. To brand doctors who are doing their job as mass murderers is bang out of order.

Catholocism is by far the dirtiest of religions and the first one that should be eradicated. Here's the biggest example of fascism abroad in the world today.

Why do you show so much hate :confused:
Cockroaches,Vermin or Disease are in need of eradication! but not your fellow man or there beliefs.

must agree with robbie on this, the catholic religon is the biggest instigater of trouble. its full of so many double standards its become a joke. majority of the priests are whiskey drinking womanisers and in some cases a lot worse. confession seems to put the world to right tho dosnt it?????

Bulldog :
if you read the post above yours you'll see that the Catholic church are culpable for the deaths of thousands (if not millions) of Jews because they were looking after themselves.

This is typical of the Vatcian. Do you know that the largest share holder in the largest condom comapny in Italy used to be the Vatican?

This is typical, Its a tyranical religion run by self serving biggots that has destroyed many peoples lives.

How many "witches" were burned? How many children have been disowned by their family for having abortions.

I hate peopelwho I believe deserve to be hated. That church is definitely one.

Originally posted by robbie
Bulldog :
if you read the post above yours you'll see that the Catholic church are culpable for the deaths of thousands (if not millions) of Jews because they were looking after themselves.

This is typical of the Vatcian. Do you know that the largest share holder in the largest condom comapny in Italy used to be the Vatican?

This is typical, Its a tyranical religion run by self serving biggots that has destroyed many peoples lives.

How many "witches" were burned? How many children have been disowned by their family for having abortions.

I hate peopelwho I believe deserve to be hated. That church is definitely one.

So You believe that the Catholic Church deserves your hatred?
And further more you hate people that you believe deserve to be hated?
If the Catholic members of this forum were polled I don't Think there's one that would reciprocate your attitude to you as an individual.
As Catholicism teaches amongst other things Forgiveness.
Sometimes, having to forgive someone is not that easy, however , without forgiveness there is no progress and when there is no progress there is stagnancy and within that environment breeds hate.
Amazing then that within this simple belief structure there is so much room to do the damage that you apparently believe Catholics culpable of.

The Catholic Church needs to stop worrying about abortion and start worrying about the pope who thinks he's higher than God himself:loopy:

Kiss MY ring:D

Originally posted by bulldog D
So You believe that the Catholic Church deserves your hatred?
And further more you hate people that you believe deserve to be hated?
If the Catholic members of this forum were polled I don't Think there's one that would reciprocate your attitude to you as an individual.
As Catholicism teaches amongst other things Forgiveness.
Sometimes, having to forgive someone is not that easy, however , without forgiveness there is no progress and when there is no progress there is stagnancy and within that environment breeds hate.
Amazing then that within this simple belief structure there is so much room to do the damage that you apparently believe Catholics culpable of.

it may teach it, but that's just generally called hypocrisy.

Originally posted by bulldog D
So You believe that the Catholic Church deserves your hatred?
And further more you hate people that you believe deserve to be hated?
If the Catholic members of this forum were polled I don't Think there's one that would reciprocate your attitude to you as an individual.
As Catholicism teaches amongst other things Forgiveness.
Sometimes, having to forgive someone is not that easy, however , without forgiveness there is no progress and when there is no progress there is stagnancy and within that environment breeds hate.
Amazing then that within this simple belief structure there is so much room to do the damage that you apparently believe Catholics culpable of.

its great forgiveness. Poeps can sanction the murder of millions of people but as long as they receive absolution they go to heaven. Great religion that :loopy:

Originally posted by Sal22
I do agree with abortion, however i think the legal limit of 24 weeks need revising. As medical advances have been made it is possible that a <a href="baby%20born" onmouseover="window.status='baby born'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">baby born</a> at 23 weeks can survive. Not many do but as it has happened the limit needs revising. I think 20 weeks should be the limit for abortions. As scanning has progressed the anomoly scan can be done sucessfuly at 18-19 weeks which would still allow parents a choice if problems were found. Abortion for serious abnormalities that would be fatal at birth should be allowed later.
This has happened before when the limit was reduced from 26 weeks to 24 weeks.
To compare abortion with the holocaust is irresponsible and just trying to create contraversy.

I think that termination of pregnancy at whatever stage of gestation, and for whatever reason, must be a terrible and traumatic experience for all concerned. But should we not be thinking about what kind of support and counselling these women/families should receive , but usually don't, prior to, and following a termination.

A friend of mine recently had to have a termination at 20 weeks due to fatal abnormalities, the support she got was negligble, especially during the delivery - nothing short of disgusting!

Originally posted by Trever
Kiss MY ring:D

Not insulting many catholic folk there then Trever?!? :loopy: Having an opinion is one thing, but needless insults is another! :rant:

Originally posted by Kristian
Not insulting many catholic folk there then Trever?!? :loopy: Having an opinion is one thing, but needless insults is another! :rant:

*Puts fingers in ears and goes la la la la la*

Originally posted by Trever
*Puts fingers in ears and goes la la la la la*
:wow: Another reasoned, adult and articulate response! :rolleyes:

Quit the troll-baiting; we're tired of it! (Yawn)

Originally posted by Kristian
:wow: Another reasoned, adult and articulate response! :rolleyes:

Quit the troll-baiting; we're tired of it! (Yawn)

*Skips gayly across road, turns, and sticks out tongue*

Good to see that it only took two pages for this one to descend into childish name-calling and petty squabbling...and I was worried that the standard were starting to slip around here!:D

In an attempt to come back to the point: After reading this thread I decided to take a look on the Telegraph website to view the article. The cardinal did not directly link or compare abortion to the genocide in WW II, although agreed it could be inferred. He (rightly imo) pointed out the links between nazi style eugenics and abortion, where those lives that, either born or unborn, are not wanted are killed. The Nazi's regarded the disabled, the mentally handicapped, gypsies and the slav population as unter-menchen - sub human, therefore not worthy of a place in their aryan society.

Robbie, where are the sources for the vaticans shareholding in the condom manufacturer? I've done several searches and can't find anything. Granted looking back over its history there are some shamful things done in the name of catholicism. But how much of that is more to do with politics and human failiure (greed, cowardice, hatred) than with the teachings of Christ. Thats what happens when people, including those who purport to be religious, don't listen to what Christ said. He gave another commandment, " Love God and each other". Tell me wheres the message of hatred and violence there?

Slimsid2000, the Pope (Pius XII) did not ignore the plight of the Jews. According to the diaries of Adolf eichmann the Pope really p*ss*d off the Nazi command, he opposed in the stongest terms he could the deportation of Jews from Rome - they went as far to say he has sided with the Jews and stands against everything we stand for. The Pope could only call on catholics to oppose what the Nazi's were doing, he could hardly invade Germany without an army could he? And it was the outcry from Germany's catholic population that halted the eugenics program. Don't forget the majority of Jews were deported from the lands occupied by German forces - the Soviet Union in the main - where the Pope had no authority.

Trever, how do you think the Pope regards himself higher than God?

Cyclone, yes sadly hypocrisy is with us in every walk of life, I have and I'm sure everyone else has at sometime succumbed to hypocrisy.

Brooksy, How many priests do you know like that? By the way preists are allowed to drink.

Mod Note.

Here we go again....

You can debate without making insulting comments.

If you can't do that, then please don't contribute to the thread.

If the insults continue, the posters of those insults will pick up a ban.

Cheers

Joe

Hello Dirtydog,
In answer to your question "how do you think the Pope regards himself higher than God?"

In fact ... no I'm not going to bother.

Originally posted by AJ sheffield
What I mean is I dont have any ownership or control over any womans body. If a woman was pregnant with my child and she wanted an abortion for whatever reason I would accept it as her right as a human being and an individual to excercise control over her own body. I might not like the decision but as I said, I am not carrying it for 9 months. The rights of the woman are much more important than the rights of both the man and the unborn child, although only up to a point with regards to the latter, and even then only in certain circumstances.

Spot on AJ sheffield. Well said.

Originally posted by Dirtydog
In an attempt to come back to the point: After reading this thread I decided to take a look on the Telegraph website to view the article. The cardinal did not directly link or compare abortion to the genocide in WW II, although agreed it could be inferred. He (rightly imo) pointed out the links between nazi style eugenics and abortion, where those lives that, either born or unborn, are not wanted are killed.

Well said. In this age of soundbites, a well thought out reasoned arguement can easily turn into "Cardinal calls abortion women facists!" which is not what he said!

Regardless of your opinion you should read the whole story before posting. I do not agree entirely with what this man has said but I respect his right to say it.