Just a quick feeler to all the SF members out there.

I'm interested to know your opinions on the following.

If I say all black people are drug dealers I would, quite rightly, expect consequences.

If I say that all Muslims are terrorists then the same would happen.

Yet it seems perfectly acceptable to define all Americans as fat and stupid. As the son of an American immigrant (who is neither fat nor stupid) I cant understand how this is acceptable.

Whether you agree or disagree with the USA's foreign policy shouldn't matter (I don't) but I am surprised by the reaction I recieve when people find out about my parentage.

Racism or playful banter. Opinions please.



Rich

...Yet it seems perfectly acceptable to define all Americans as fat and stupid.

I find it offensive that you seem it is perfectably acceptable to define all Americans as fat and stupid. :)

My English cousin lives in the USA. Her Indian born husband is now a naturalised American citizen. He is not stupid (in fact he's a doctor) and he is not fat.

Please stop these generalisations of Americans being fat and stupid right now! :)

there are always two opposite vioces in this world.

If u say yes, someone will come out and shout out "NO"

Most people have no opinion on what happened. So, just take a little bit time, they will make their choices. So far, I don't know. But definitely, I will follow the main stream

I find it offensive that you seem it is perfectably acceptable to define all Americans as fat and stupid. :)

My English cousin lives in the USA. Her Indian born husband is now a naturalised American citizen. He is not stupid (in fact he's a doctor) and he is not fat.

Please stop these generalisations of Americans being fat and stupid right now! :)

I think you have the wrong end of the stick. I don't think all Americans are fat and stupid at all. I think they, as should everyone, should be judged on their own individualities. I'm just saying that at the moment if someone calls Americans fat and stupid it is merely dismissed yet if people were to make similarly disparageing (sp) comments about other races they would be hauled over the coals for it.

:(:)

I think you have the wrong end of the stick. I don't think all Americans are fat and stupid at all. I think they, as should everyone, should be judged on their own individualities. I'm just saying that at the moment if someone calls Americans fat and stupid it is merely dismissed yet if people were to make similarly disparageing (sp) comments about other races they would be hauled over the coals for it.

:(:)

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick! Didn't you spot my two smillies? I was posting with what you termed "playful banter"! :)

I think you have the wrong end of the stick. I don't think all Americans are fat and stupid at all. I think they, as should everyone, should be judged on their own individualities. I'm just saying that at the moment if someone calls Americans fat and stupid it is merely dismissed yet if people were to make similarly disparageing (sp) comments about other races they would be hauled over the coals for it.

:(:)


We human.
We usually act individually in this world. It doesn't matter how you behave in your own country or your home.
But when we go abroad, what we do and say will not only represent our own personality but also our counry, even our race.

Just a example: If there is a fat man from Mars named Joe. You won't say fat Joe, you will say fat Martian

If Joe did something guilty, you would not say that Joe was a criminal. Usually we say that a Martian is a criminal

Hope that i express my point clearly

heehee

I think redrobbo is kidding, donuticus. :)

That's interesting you have one American parent. How did they come to be in England?

As someone who has been stalked on SF by labour-its constantly posting that 'he lives in America' as if that disenfranchises me to post in some way, I have found that this form of racism seems to stretch much further than one might at first think, It also seems to be centered on the left rather than the right.

Of course there are those really stupid people who seem to think that Jordanthorpe is located on the west coast which only illustrates to me that their own parochial slant views anyone who doesn't live in their back yard as a breed apart in some way and not entitled to hold a view of voice here it here on SF.

The extent that I've been attacked has even gone to the lengths of starting a thread about me saying that I shouldn't be allowed to post on the St Luke's thread, it even had a poll which unfortunately for the reds came out 86% in favor of me.

With respect to the OP's question - IMO, yes, it is a form of racism, and it sucks.

Take a look at Nick Cohen's 'What's Left' for some comment on this phenomena.

I was brought up to believe americans were friendly, cheerful people.

I was brought up to believe americans were friendly, cheerful people.

Me too, and the ones I have met have all been just that.

The vast mnajority of Americans I've met have been fine, and I enjoy dealing with them and doing business with them.

Like us they occasionally make bad decisions as a country, have a few dodgy business men, etc. Just like any country in the world. :)

I don't think anyone does think all Americans are fat or stupid. There are many examples that anyone regardless of political persuassion can pick to disprove this sort of generalisation. I believe that the US leads the world on obesity and does have problems with the quality of the education it provides particularly in the inner cities, but of course acknowledging this is a long way from making any claims about all americans.

The anti-americanism criticism of the left has nothing at all to do with racism. It is one of those, you aren't patriotic enough arguments, an argument that is without any merit especially not when the left in the US claim a heritage that goes right back to the original aims of people like Jefferson and Franklin that founded the united states in the first place. There is nothing more worthy about the asperations at the founders of the US than the rights of freedom of speech and thought, rights that the American right are attacking through the patriot act and the like. That is not my view of respect for their history nor of what patriotism is about.

Generally racism is socially acceptable if the target is perceived as being equal, or more fortunate than yourself - even if that isn't always the case.

For example, racism to white persons in this country is often overlooked.

It might more properly be termed 'prejudice' or 'bigotry'. I don't think you can call it 'racism'.

Describing xenophobic, bigoted or prejudiced attitudes against other countries inhabitants as 'racism' merely, imo, devalues the more serious aspects of it.

I think in the U.K. in particular, we have been inundated for a long time within our culture with the idea that ' Fair Play ' is a graet concept. I think it IS a great idea and one of our best traits, generally speaking.

However, it does ' overstep the mark ' sometimes and becomes the ' Goliath is always wrong ; David is always right ' syndrome. Every situation should be judged mainly on its own merits. That doesn't mean that we can't learn from history but looking at things constantly with a fresh, honest, genuine eye, should stop us having a ' knee jerk ' reaction to all things American, Russian or Chinese.

Well said donuticus, a lot of people seem to be ignorant of the fact that making generalisations as you have mentioned isn't acceptable. Is it racist? Not sure it can be called racist as the USA aren't a race as one, they are a nation.

However that said they are still being prejudice and this shouldn't be condoned IMO on the forum in the same way as racism is not condoned.

I've seen comedy sketches on TV that go into the "fat, stupid" american generalisation and wonder what sort of backlash would come if they were doing something blatently racist.

An interesting debate mate, well done.

Although there is some anti-Americanism around, the accusation is often used to shout down legitimate criticism of US foreign policy. If you watch right-wing US attack dogs like Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity, they'll often throw the cheap label of "anti-American", "traitor" or "Al-Qaida supporter" at people who criticise the policies of the Bush administration. It's a way of stifling opposing viewpoints and reducing everything to the idiotic unnuanced "good versus evil" dichotomy of the Bush administration.

To the anti-Americanism that is around though, it's pointless because you can't make generalisations about the US. I've visited there recently and the main thing I learned from the trip is that America is hugely diverse. It's a continent not a country. There isn't any one label you can use for Americans because there'll always be people there who don't fit into that category.

All the Americans I've met in person have been really nice, intelligent people - and none of them were fat.
However the majority of Americans I see on TV are fat, stupid, and annoying. And I don't like the US government and its policies. But as has been mentioned before, you can't describe all the people in the US in one go, there are so many people, so many different kinds of people - look up a song called 'who is this America dem speak of today?' by a band called Antibalas - good stuff.
In the meantime, have you seen this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJuNgBkloFE

It's a continent not a country. There isn't any one label you can use for Americans because there'll always be people there who don't fit into that category.
The Americas are a continent (i.e. South America and North America combined) but the USA, or how it is known as "America" is most definitely a country.

It's made up of 50 states (2 of those being their own country) but it is defined as a country.

I've not seen "fair play" in action for a long time. It's never really fair play if group A of people follows X rule, and another group B folllows Y rule. X and Y rule are different, and if people start thinking of the other person as from the group but follow a different set of rule, then of course, there's always going to be disagreements.

I think anti-americanism is a stereotype. Just like many others will have stereotype of the British too. I mean, we don't like it, so why should others accept it? I don't think anybody likes to be judged and stereotyped into something that Joe Blogg saw on tv or something. It's quite rude to judge on first encounter of that person.

I would just say, if you live your life by the same rule that you set for others, then you'd be fine. A lot of the people I work with in my comp always use this anti-american lines too. I mean, how can it not be, when the company started in the US and its HQ is based there? :confused: Anyway, I don't see it as an American company. The way of work, and the culture to me is an individual company thing, and it has nothing to do with nationalities and culture.

I bet even the creator of the Six Sigma concept never thought this way, "I am American, and I will now consider this to be a universally known American concept". :confused:

I have nothing against Americans, in fact I have more American friends than most of you have had hot dinners. But I don't like American culture and what's 'racist' about saying that? Is it the law or something that I have to enjoy McDonalds, Starbucks, KFC etc? I also cannot stand Reggae but does that make me racist? No - I just hate that form of music.

Someone will come on and say that the people of a nation define its culture. I disagree entirely in the case of the USA - shareholders define the culture of the USA, the people who live there have little control. I utterly despise the homogenisation that has spread out from the corporations of that country - I'm sick to death of every single high street in the UK looking identical.

Guess what? Americans are too keen on it either.

Nothing wrong with you saying you don't like American culture. That is your opinion.
What we're arguing is that labelling "all" americans as fat and stupid, war mongering idiots is wrong and prejudice.

To say you don't like the American administration is fine too. That's their foreign policy and if you don't agree with it you have the right to say so.

Me too, and the ones I have met have all been just that.

I hope there's a a hint of irony here, since we are on the topic of the problems with white washing.

If there is... hehe. Bravo. If not.... it's the coals! :D

Can I point out that Americans aren't a race, there are all races of the world in the USA. So how can it be racist?

Perhaps you mean is anti-Americanism acceptable? In which case the answer is yes, if you're discussing the nation and no if you're discussing individual Americans.

Firstly Americans are NOT a race. The reason there is so much dislike of America is nothing to do with the people who from my experience of holidays over there are fantastic. It is more to do with Politicians in particular bush who seems to think that the rest of the world is there to be ruled by him.
The American rulers should stop interfering in every country that takes their fancy whether by supplying it with arms, invading or by just supporting ecomomically countries that could never survive on their own and then get away with bullying their arab neighbours, now that is RACISM!

America's biggest problem is that their Leader is a complete wazzock! George Bush Senior was never as silly as his son IMO.

As someone who has been stalked on SF by labour-its constantly posting that 'he lives in America' as if that disenfranchises me to post in some way, I have found that this form of racism seems to stretch much further than one might at first think, It also seems to be centered on the left rather than the right.

Of course there are those really stupid people who seem to think that Jordanthorpe is located on the west coast which only illustrates to me that their own parochial slant views anyone who doesn't live in their back yard as a breed apart in some way and not entitled to hold a view of voice here it here on SF.

The extent that I've been attacked has even gone to the lengths of starting a thread about me saying that I shouldn't be allowed to post on the St Luke's thread, it even had a poll which unfortunately for the reds came out 86% in favor of me.

Fancy thinking Jordanthorpes is on the west coast ,how supid can people get...everybody knows its a suburb of the west bank it must be the water connection that mixes them up:D:D

America's biggest problem is that their Leader is a complete wazzock! George Bush Senior was never as silly as his son IMO.

Unfortuantely it seems that America's president has to be the offspring of a previous one these days; after all didn't Ronald Nixon change his surname to Reagan to try and hide his family connections back in the 1980s? And with Bill Clinton's daughter Hilary next in line, it ain't gonna change......

I think with a lot of communication on a personal level to a public level is what it is that you're saying. Why would you discredit a whole country or a whole nation? I mean, even as a bystander, I read and see that, and of course, I too would not be impressed by it. Should I accept it by acknowledging it in agreement? No.

It's an old cliche, but.... "if you have nothing good to say, then it is better not to say it". On a personal and family level, I can take and I will understand the opinions of most and many of my family members. That is because I wish to know, and to understand them, and therefore build a better relationship together. However, on a public level, why should I embrace such negative comments and generalisation from a joe public? :confused: It doesn't compute. Well, in my eyes anyway. For others, it may be a patriotic thing, but I will show patrism in a different manner. Humility is not a bad thing.

According to Wiki, Racism is defined as -

According to British law, racial group means "any group of people who are defined by reference to their race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origin".

So in a legal sense, being anti-American could be considered to be racist.

The Americas are a continent (i.e. South America and North America combined) but the USA, or how it is known as "America" is most definitely a country.

It's made up of 50 states (2 of those being their own country) but it is defined as a country.

Sorry, I phrased that badly. I meant that the USA is more like a continent than a country, not that it isn't a country.

On a similar note is regionalism the same sort of thing? e.g. NORTH/SOUTH divide

<snip>

Yet it seems perfectly acceptable to define all Americans as fat and stupid. As the son of an American immigrant (who is neither fat nor stupid) I cant understand how this is acceptable.

<snip>

Fascinating as this debate is, has anyone actually said that all americans are fat and stupid?

I hate anti Americanisms, Ive met bloody hundreds of Amis and theyre just like the rest of us, some are gits and some are ok, Most online Americans I know are brilliant, I have dozens of friends from the U.S.- some who Ive known since 2000.

To think that the Americans are subjected to it on here embarrasses and makes me feel a bit sick to be frank. It makes us all look bad and yeah... even though the Amis are of all races, its still racist in its own way, weather theyre black or as pink as I am.

It is interesting what happens when someone challenges a person who expresses hatred of foreigners of one description or another. The hater often comes back with "Ah, but Americans/Albanians/Eastern Europeans (delete as appropriate) aren't a race, so it isn't racism". And?

What they're saying is "I hate people I've never met because of their nationality, not the colour of their skin". Oh well, that makes it perfectly acceptable of course, why didn't you say so, you big feckin' eejit? :rolleyes:

It is interesting what happens when someone challenges a person who expresses hatred of foreigners of one description or another. The hater often comes back with "Ah, but Americans/Albanians/Eastern Europeans (delete as appropriate) aren't a race, so it isn't racism". And?

What they're saying is "I hate people I've never met because of their nationality, not the colour of their skin". Oh well, that makes it perfectly acceptable of course, why didn't you say so, you big feckin' eejit? :rolleyes:

Best post on the thread - nothing else to be said.

According to Wiki, Racism is defined as -

Quote:
According to British law, racial group means "any group of people who are defined by reference to their race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origin".

So in a legal sense, being anti-American could be considered to be racist.Then the definition has become too broad to be meaningful any more! To me, racism is simply that: prejudice against race, as defined genetically. To use the word for other purposes such as prejudice against nationality, especially when that nation's population is as mongrel as the UK's, comes across as ignorant!

In spite of the definition posted that includes nationality as a basis for racism, I don't believe it should be used that way or it does, as Googleberry stated, diminish its meaning.

That said, as an American, I must say that until I started frequenting forums such as SF, I was blissfully unaware that so many people had such strong feelings against Americans in general. In fact, my feelings (national pride maybe?) were hurt at first, though I am smart enough to know that when people make sweeping generalizations about Americans being loud, fat, etc...they are not talking about me personally. I mentioned it before on another thread but it bears repeating....I think of the British as my "cousins" or extended family across the sea and I think many of my fellow Americans feel the same way.

So can we all kiss and make up now? :D

Best post on the thread - nothing else to be said.

Here Here..........

In spite of the definition posted that includes nationality as a basis for racism, I don't believe it should be used that way or it does, as Googleberry stated, diminish its meaning.

That said, as an American, I must say that until I started frequenting forums such as SF, I was blissfully unaware that so many people had such strong feelings against Americans in general. In fact, my feelings (national pride maybe?) were hurt at first, though I am smart enough to know that when people make sweeping generalizations about Americans being loud, fat, etc...they are not talking about me personally. I mentioned it before on another thread but it bears repeating....I think of the British as my "cousins" or extended family across the sea and I think many of my fellow Americans feel the same way.

So can we all kiss and make up now? :D

Don't worry, your turn's nearly over. China is due to take over as "most loathed Super Power" fairly soon, and you lot can have a break :)

People who make generalisations about other countries or people such as quote"Americans are all fat and stupid" are themselves showing their own stupidity and in addition their total abysmal ignorance.
If I were to say that all English people are skinny and snooty would that be an accurate statement? Of course not!

You have to realize that people who say these things in most cases have never travelled anywhere outside of their own little backyards and their minds match the same limited dimensions.

I have lived in the US for many years and have met one or two ignorant people who who have said things like "Europeans smell, they never wash properly. Girls in Europe all have hairy legs" Unbelievable! When I asked these individuals if they had ever been to Europe they answered in the negative so that proves my point.

That said I have noticed while over in England on visits that as soon as I mention I live in the USA they invariable start on the subject of George Bush and I invariably tell them not to waste their breath. George Bush does not represent me nor the US. He is an individual and head of state of 3 hundred million people of many different opinions and diverse ethnic origins who call themselves Americans.

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick! Didn't you spot my two smillies? I was posting with what you termed "playful banter"! :)

Sorry Chap. My apologies. :D

Don't worry, your turn's nearly over. China is due to take over as "most loathed Super Power" fairly soon, and you lot can have a break :)
Yes, and just *what* is wrong with being chinese, and all that we do???!?!??! Okay, don't tell me, you like fried rice. AND??? :hihi:

*....AND deep breath*

The older I get, I find myself caring less tbh.
I finally took therapy and can now bring myself to accept that some people are idiots. There is no win-win situation... :)

It might more properly be termed 'prejudice' or 'bigotry'. I don't think you can call it 'racism'.

Describing xenophobic, bigoted or prejudiced attitudes against other countries inhabitants as 'racism' merely, imo, devalues the more serious aspects of it.

I'm glad you said this Rube, I was gonna say the same but checked first.

America is probably the most racially diverse country on the planet, but they have a very strong unifying nationalistc attitude.

We should strive to emulate this.

The American people are much the same as any people anywhere.
However many of the people have been encouraged, by their government, to think that their country can do what it likes, in a 'global policing' capacity - and are entitled to bypass conventional rules of engagement and intervention.

I do believe that there is an American mindset, growing more widespread daily, which believes that America rules the world.

P.S.
If anti-Americanism IS an accepted form of racism, it is as deplorable as any form of racism to anyone, anywhere.