I've been watching far too much TV tonight, as one does when one is bored!

I caught a commercial tonight advertising re-runs of Fawlty Towers, and the clip was played was of Basil hitting Manuel for what seemed to be no other reason than Manuel being Spanish.

What occurred to me is that one never sees re-runs of other comedies from a similar era that contain (what seem to me) blatant racism. Why is it funny for Basil to abuse Manuel for being Spanish, when if a programme such as 'Love thy Neighbour' were to be shown, there would undoubtedly be an outcry?

Can I at this point state that I am not in favour of 'Love thy Neighbour' etc being reshown! I just find the double-standards very odd!

K x

You're quite right , Kristian. It is illogical and it stems from over-regulating everything and/or trying to please everybody. It invariably leads to anomolies , one of which you point out. The next step will probably be someone wanting Fawlty Towers banned....and so it goes on.
Shakespeare's stuff was full of politically incorrect stuff and Orwell's first book , Down and Out in Paris and London , seemed very anti--Jewush , in my opinion . As yet the "Ban-'em" Brigade haven't managed to get rid of the classics .......yet !

Yes, the Spanish "race" have been persecuted for far too long, haven't they.

I can almost hear the slogans now: "Say it loud I'm Spanish and I'm proud" or "Young, Gifted and Spanish".

Get a grip, please.

BTW, when Fawlty Towers was shown in Spain (dubbed, I believe), the nationality of the Manuel character was changed to German. Make of that what you will.

Politically incorrect, but oh so funny.

:D

The writing of any generation reflects the society of that time.


Joe

Doea anyone remember the name of that programme about a class of varoius foreigners trying to learn English?

Every race was very stereotyped. There was a Chinese Man who bowed constantly, a harsh German, A Spanish Man with hairy Chest and gold Medallion, a sexy Swedish nympho and others.

Now that was bad but at the time it was quite acceptable so at least things have changed for the better.

Do you mean Mind Your Language (http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/articles/m/mindyourlanguage_1299002104.shtml)

Quality comedy.

"A thousand apologies" and...that's as much as I remember :thumbsup:

Thats it! Mind Your Language. It would have annoyed me all day trying to remember that.

Now I will be trying to remember all the nationalities!

The 'joke' is in a satirical way, as some of these kind of jokes are.

Monty Python was the same

Fawlty Towers is pure genius, I always felt that Basil's abuse of Manuel stemmed from Basil's frustrating inability to convey his orders to him in his mother tongue and the need for a whipping boy (I think anyone came in for abuse from Basil!).

I don't think there was any racial undertones just a very scathing and absurd parody of the British mentality, aspirations and views.

By today's standards probably, but not back when it was created. A programme I saw a while back showed how openly ethnic minorities were ridiculed a few years ago. Now it is becoming more socially unacceptable and ethnic minorities (thankfully!) have a louder voice.

But on the other hand there are programmes which borderline on being racist such as Little Britain. However, I think Little Britain pokes fun at all corners of society and as such, is a fantastic piece of television!

Kristian,
Fawlty Towers in itself is not racist. Like Till Death Us Do Part, Love Thy Neighbour etc, the central figures [Basil Fawlty, Alf Garnett and Eddie Booth respectively] are white Britons with 'racist' attitudes. They are the ultimate butt of the respective jokes, despite Manuel being the whipping boy for Fawlty. The shows poke fun at bigotry. Admittedly, in the case of Love Thy Neighbour, and Till Death Us Do Part, the joke rather backfired. I can remember schoolchildren using the phrases, such as 'coon', 'nig-nog' etc, in a hostile way in the playground after watching them.

They all deserve to be shown because they are funny. The motives behind all these shows are perfectly decent. It is not the fault of Cleese, for example, that an occasional Spanish waiter might receive a 'slap on head' from an achingly- unfunny British tourist.
Regards.

I can just about recall an even more politically incorrect sitcom called 'Mixed Blessings' (I think)... Anyone remeber/have any thoughts on that one?

Originally posted by Kristian
[B

I caught a commercial tonight advertising re-runs of Fawlty Towers, and the clip was played was of Basil hitting Manuel for what seemed to be no other reason than Manuel being Spanish.

K x [/B]

But the Spanish are no more a distinct "race" of people than are we the British.

And surely the point of the programme is to take the p**s out of the English, which I think it does very well ? ;)

OTOH perhaps in these PC days we're no longer able to appreciate the subtlety, which if true is very sad.

Originally posted by mojoworking
BTW, when Fawlty Towers was shown in Spain (dubbed, I believe), the nationality of the Manuel character was changed to German. Make of that what you will.

He was Mexican in the Spanish dubbed version.

Sorry your both mistaken, he became Italian.

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
Sorry your both mistaken, he became Italian.

I hate to labour the point, but I was watching a dubbed version when I stayed with my Spanish mate in Barcelona. I obviously found it quite funny that I was in Barcelona and Manuel was supposed to be from there. So I told her this story and asked her where he was from in their version. She was quite clear that it was Mexico.....!

:P :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
Sorry your both mistaken, he became Italian.

I was wrong about him being German, but Boroughgal was kind of correct. In the Catalonian version Manuel was changed to a Mexican

Boroughgal,
This is a tad off the thread, but I really must tell you how very attractive you look on the new avatar. You appear to be gradually revealing more of your gorgeous self, as the avatars change. Is this my feverish imagination? Dear old Lappo is a lucky man. Long may you reign as Queen of the Forum !

Tim x

I believe Mr Arkwright from Open All Hours got away with a very racy line in early 80's.. He wouldn't have got away with it in this day and age..

Although I don't condone racism you do have to see the funny side to it at the time :hihi:

I love Fawlty Towers :D

' There is no Fire, it only bell! '

Fawlty Towers was not racist against the Spanish. It was poking fun at the sterotypical English inability to communicate with anyone else, as many have already pointed out.

I'm surprised that in this thread about racism in Fawlty Towers nobody has thought to say "Don't mention the war". Of course, that whole episode proves that the humour is aimed directly as Basil Fawlty and his ineptitude in human interaction!

My obsession of the day:


More recently, however, it has successfully been dubbed into Spanish with Manuel refashioned as an Italian.
http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/F/htmlF/fawltytowers/fawltytowers.htm

Key to the understanding of the cultural specificity, is how Manuel changes from being Spanish in the original series, and then in the Spanish, he is Italian, and in each different language dub, the Archetype selected for Manuel changes according to how each dub version will select a different nationality to be the butt of the jokes...

http://www.totaltiorden.dk/shop/dvd_details.php/B00005LC1H%7C%7C163357

maybe Manuel was an illegal immigrant???

I was half right. In the Spanish version he was Italian, but in the Catalan he was Mexican. Although it appears both the Spanish and Catalan version have been broadcasted in Barcelona.

I got to thinking about British TV being sold off all over the world, and noticed that most of Europe still show 'Allo 'Allo (http://www.coldcut.com/video/aa/stations.html) with the exception of Gremany and France. Odd that! :D

K x

"oh your german... I'm sorry I thought there was something wrong with you" Basil Fawlty

Originally posted by mojoworking
Yes, the Spanish "race" have been persecuted for far too long, haven't they.

I can almost hear the slogans now: "Say it loud I'm Spanish and I'm proud" or "Young, Gifted and Spanish".

Get a grip, please.

BTW, when Fawlty Towers was shown in Spain (dubbed, I believe), the nationality of the Manuel character was changed to German. Make of that what you will.

His nationality was changed to Italian , actually.


Fawlty Towers was the best comedy sitcom ever shown. The racism and political incorrectness aspects stem from the fact that the programmes were made in the seventies when this was all the rage.

Not to mention the fact that John Cleese is God when it comes to old school British comedy.

Oh my GOD! Fawlty Towers is a classic. Leave it alone. I really can't believe how PC some people are. Imagine how bland the world would be if they had their way.

Originally posted by t020
Oh my GOD! Fawlty Towers is a classic. Leave it alone. I really can't believe how PC some people are. Imagine how bland the world would be if they had their way.

Well some of us just accept what we are told.

Bit of a dumb question really.

It is a COMEDY, if anyone looks stupid on that show it is Basil himself.

Excellent programme.

Over here we have this terrible urge to turn terrific british comedies into american versions, which usually turn out to be crap, So an american version of FT would probably have Manuel as a Pole.

I was watching an Episode of Rising Damp the other night on ITV3 or something rubbish and Rigsby was making voodoo dance references to the black lodger.

It made me wonder how long it's got left until that's also classed as racist and refused an airing.

I've got some original 1915-1920's John Buchan books (39 Steps and the sequels) and they contain several derogatory comments about all manner of races, including the word "******".

Many of the references have been removed from the modern reprints, I can't see why. After reading them I don't suddenly get the urge to call someone a "dago" or "******".

Before I posted this I even changed ****** to 'N-Word', before I though Sod it. Is the world getting that PC that we have to question or own thoughts?

Originally posted by t020
Oh my GOD! Fawlty Towers is a classic. Leave it alone. I really can't believe how PC some people are. Imagine how bland the world would be if they had their way.

Did anyone suggest banning it? It was a question regarding why we as a nation feel this is acceptable, when clearly other similar shows are not.

Do you really think 'my world' (i.e. if I made the decisions) would be bland T020? Try looking inwards. You might not like it, but I don't think even you could say 'my world' would be boring!

K x

Originally posted by Kristian
Did anyone suggest banning it? It was a question regarding why we as a nation feel this is acceptable, when clearly other similar shows are not.

No, did I suggest they did?


Originally posted by Kristian

Do you really think 'my world' (i.e. if I made the decisions) would be bland T020? Try looking inwards. You might not like it, but I don't think even you could say 'my world' would be boring!

K x

I didn't mention you specifically, but if the PC brigade collectively had their way there'd be no laughing at ANYTHING or ANYONE for fear of offending someone.

Originally posted by t020
No, did I suggest they did?




I didn't mention you specifically, but if the PC brigade collectively had their way there'd be no laughing at ANYTHING or ANYONE for fear of offending someone.

Honestly t020, not sufe if Krirtian is worth arguing with, he,she will use different defence mechanisms and end up calling you a couple of names for self-comfort.

Originally posted by venger
Honestly t020, not sufe if Krirtian is worth arguing with, he,she will use different defence mechanisms and end up calling you a couple of names for self-comfort.

Not sure who or what Krirtian is; possibly it's some type of new window treatment; however, I don't think so!

Disagreeing with your archaic views does not make me (definately a he BTW) a name caller; I don't need to satisfy my own ego by making you look stupid; you apparently can do that all on you own!

Love as always,

K x

Originally posted by timo
Boroughgal,
This is a tad off the thread, but I really must tell you how very attractive you look on the new avatar. You appear to be gradually revealing more of your gorgeous self, as the avatars change. Is this my feverish imagination? Dear old Lappo is a lucky man. Long may you reign as Queen of the Forum !

Tim x

Aw thanks Tim....! Thank goodness for Adobe Photoshop, eh? It beats plastic surgery!

And Disco Cat.... I conceed! I see now that he was Mexican in the Catalunian version and Itailian in the Castillian version. So we were BOTH right...???!!!

:thumbsup:

Originally posted by Kristian


Disagreeing with your archaic views....



So because you are gay, that makes you the only liberated, free and modern thinking individual around here then ?

Well it is fashionable to be camp and pc I suppose...

Ooooo ya bitch *slap*

Fawlty Towers - is it racist?

Not that I ever remember.

It is Basil who always looks the foolish one because of his tightly coiled spring personality.

Originally posted by venger
So because you are gay, that makes you the only liberated, free and modern thinking individual around here then ?

Well it is fashionable to be camp and pc I suppose...

Ooooo ya bitch *slap*

Fawlty Towers - is it racist?

Not that I ever remember.

It is Basil who always looks the foolish one because of his tightly coiled spring personality.

Exactly, it is Basil who looks foolish. I think the point was to make fun of a certain type of English people. No doubt Basil would be the kind of person who would be up in arms at the PC brigade, and that is where the joke is aimed. No at all racist in my opinion.

Originally posted by venger
So because you are gay, that makes you the only liberated, free and modern thinking individual around here then ?


That wasn't my point at all venger. There are lots of 'liberated, free and modern thinking individuals' on this forum, and based upon your previous posts, I don't think you fall into this category.

Sexuality doesn't come into it, grow up!

Originally posted by Snook
Exactly, it is Basil who looks foolish. I think the point was to make fun of a certain type of English people. No doubt Basil would be the kind of person who would be up in arms at the PC brigade, and that is where the joke is aimed. No at all racist in my opinion.

If it make's fun of the English and the English are a race it must be racist.

Don't forget, racism can be a positive thing. For example to say> "Look at that American guy talking to that black kid" would be racist 'cos you are describing two people by their race. Just as saying "Look at that woman over there" would be sexist but not in a negative way.

Some people give racism a bad name;)

Originally posted by Trever
If it make's fun of the English and the English are a race it must be racist.

Don't forget, racism can be a positive thing. For example to say> "Look at that American guy talking to that black kid" would be racist 'cos you are describing two people by their race. Just as saying "Look at that woman over there" would be sexist but not in a negative way.

Some people give racism a bad name;)

We seem to be getting confused as to the definition of "race".

The English are made up of many races, but technically they are not actually a race - they are a nationality (the recent British/English confusion thread notwithstanding). Same applies to the Americans, Spanish, French etc.

So this entire thread is based on a false premise: ie that making fun of someone because (in this instance) they are from Spain is racist. In the same way that countless comedians make jokes about the Irish: it is not and cannot be racist by definition.

It may not be very PC in this day and age, but it's certainly not racist either.

Originally posted by mojoworking
We seem to be getting confused as to the definition of "race".

The English are made up of many races, but technically they are not actually a race - they are a nationality (the recent British/English confusion thread notwithstanding). Same applies to the Americans, Spanish, French etc.

So this entire thread is based on a false premise: ie that making fun of someone because (in this instance) they are from Spain is racist. In the same way that countless comedians make jokes about the Irish: it is not and cannot be racist by definition.

It may not be very PC in this day and age, but it's certainly not racist either.

So what group of people can you actually be "racist" to?:confused:

My word - for once I totally agree with mojo! :suspect:

Originally posted by Trever
So what group of people can you actually be "racist" to?:confused:

A race is a distinct population of humans distinguished in some way from other humans. The most widely observed races are those based on skin colour, facial features, ancestry, genetics, and (sometimes) national origin.

The classification of humans by race is not as simple as many people think, but generally speaking Caucasian, Mongoloid and Negroid are the three main sub-divisions.

With regards to this thread: most white Europeans are classified as Caucasian, therefore the Spanish are virtually indistinguishable from the British. So it cannot be racist to laugh at the misfortunes of Manuel

Originally posted by Tony
My word - for once I totally agree with mojo! :suspect:

There's a first time for everything Tony! ;)

In the classic film "The Dambusters" Guy Gibson's dog was called
******. He got run over just before the raid and Guy Gibson asked that he buried @ 12.00 Midnight as they were attacking the Dams.

Think of the uproar these days if the film was remade, the dog would have to be called Native African/Caribbean hound.

Doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

Originally posted by Seadiver
In the classic film "The Dambusters" Guy Gibson's dog was called
******. He got run over just before the raid and Guy Gibson asked that he buried @ 12.00 Midnight as they were attacking the Dams.

Think of the uproar these days if the film was remade, the dog would have to be called Native African/Caribbean hound.

Doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

But times have moved on. The dog wouldn't be called Native African/Carribean hound in these times, it would have a completely different name.

K x

Originally posted by Kristian
But times have moved on. The dog wouldn't be called Native African/Carribean hound in these times, it would have a completely different name.

K x

Unless the dog belonged to a rap artist, then it would presumably be alright to call it Nigga.

Back in the 50s my Gran lived on the Manor and the bloke next door had a dog called ******. He used to stand out in the street yelling the dog's name at the top of his voice whenever it got out of his garden. Stop and think about that image for a moment......

As times changed I always cringed whenever I recalled the memory. I used to wonder what would have happened to him if he lived in Harlem or Watts (or even Brixton) and stood out in the street yelling "******!"

Originally posted by Kristian
That wasn't my point at all venger....... grow up!

You often don`t seem to have a point.

Grow up the boy says lol!

Originally posted by venger
You often don`t seem to have a point.

Grow up the boy says lol!

Good Morning Venger!

I note from the 'quote' you provided in your post that you chose to edit out the true meaning of my post. Do you think the good people of the forum aren't clever enough to read a whole thread?

I'm growing tired of your inarticulate snipes at me based upon little evidence. I'm not sure why you choose to 'flame' me at every given opportunity, but carry on if it makes you feel good.

You seem to be incapable of recognising a question posed to spark a debate; this was the objective of my original post here. I don't think Fawlty Towers is racist, I just found the subject interesting.

Keep smiling! :)

K x

Originally posted by venger
Honestly t020, not sufe if Krirtian is worth arguing with, he,she will use different defence mechanisms and end up calling you a couple of names for self-comfort.

What is with you venger? You have no evidence whatsover to support your contention that Kristian will end up calling anyone a couple of names for self comfort.

Just check out any of his posts on any thread on this forum, and you will see that Kristian is quick to defend anyone against unfair attack.

Kristian uses humour to great effect, and is a witty, intelligent contributor to the forum.

So what's the matter with you I wonder? Why all this flaming at Kristian? Come on venger - it's time you found your own sense of humour, and learned to lighten up.

MOD: Can we please keep this thread on topic, viz. a light hearted debate over which no one can possibly get heated or resort to name calling. Thanks.

Max,
I have great respect for you, so I will keep what I have to say polite. Then, we can return to the thread.

Venger,
You and I have never clashed before, and I do not wish to now. However, please thiink before 'flaming' good posters like Kristian. He is a friend of mine, and I find your reference to him as 'she' rather unfair. He is very much a man, having the guts to be openly gay. I think you have the wrong impression about what he meant on the thread, and about his character. There is nothing 'fashionable' about his gayness- that is the way he is. People are often surprised that a right wing Tory Heterosexual like myself should get on so well with Kris. I will tell you why- it is because he is one of the nicest, wittiest and bravest men around. Give him a chance, please. Thanks for listening.

Originally posted by mojoworking
Yes, the Spanish "race" have been persecuted for far too long, haven't they.

I can almost hear the slogans now: "Say it loud I'm Spanish and I'm proud" or "Young, Gifted and Spanish".

Get a grip, please.

BTW, when Fawlty Towers was shown in Spain (dubbed, I believe), the nationality of the Manuel character was changed to German. Make of that what you will.

Sheer genius - I larfed and larfed...

FT is indeed totally brilliant and should continue to be shown forever. I hate political correctness and cultural revisionism (John Buchan etc...) BUT, having said all that, I think Kristian had a point. Monty Python did a sketch - it's on one of their live albums and gets a huge laugh and cheer from the posh studes in the audience - which hinges on a put-down of a black person, I can't remember whether the word '******' is actually used or not, but the sketch is definately insulting and the man delivering the coup de grace, as it were, was John Cleese. But then, the episode of FT where the Major stands in the bar and runs through what defines a wop, dago etc... sounds totally racist, but isn't - the joke's on the Major for being such a gibbering nitwit. At the end of the day, FT continues to be revered, and sold/broadcast, because it is fantasticaly FUNNY. As seventies sitcoms went, it actually trod very carefully.