A gunmen has gone on the rampage in a school in America and has killed and injured several students. Some sites are reporting 6 dead and some 8 with more than a dozen injured.

I wonder how many times this has to happen before some measures get taken against the gun culture in America? :mad:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4370617.stm

Originally posted by Lickszz
A gunmen has gone on the rampage in a school in America and has killed and injured several students. Some sites are reporting 6 dead and some 8 with more than a dozen injured.

I wonder how many times this has to happen before some measures get taken against the gun culture in America? :mad:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4370617.stm

This is so very sad. The American government surely have to do something to stop such gun crime in their country, but what to do is a very different question. :(

K x

Maybe u guys werent in school for a long time... but nowerdays thers alot of ppl like chavs and "gangsta wanabees" that are just asking to make some big holes in thy selfs!
I think problems here lays not in guns themself but in the upbringing of the youth....if u like :|

When the US was created, everyone HAD to have a gun in order to eat. So it hasn't ever been a question of who gets to have guns. It has become a question of how to take guns away from people who already have them. And even people who have good sense don't with to give up their right to keep what they already have.

People who have guns to hunt, or for target shooting, argue that they don't do anything immoral with them. And they are correct. But this means there are laws that allow less rational people to get access.

Including people who don't keep them safely away from their idiot offspring.

I'm not even talking about criminals who don't bother to get permits and licenses.

Very sad to hear.

What more atrocities next.

Shootings there and also right here in Sheffield.

Maybe eventually dog eat dog, this just being the start.

Nature is based on chaos. Going into philosophical mode.
America was built on the barrel of a gun. The chinese invented gunpowder. As for chavs etc. you know the culprits are usually male between 17 - 35 and ones you'd not suspect. Then they blame testosterone. Nature. Science. Chaos.

Logicaly:
Rational ppl should use morons for target practise, efficient and good for the comunity :thumbsup:

Yeah. That'll work like a charm.

Originally posted by adaline
Logicaly:
Rational ppl should use morons for target practise, efficient and good for the comunity :thumbsup:

Does that mean you're volunteering to become a target? ;)

uk guns are banned and difficult to obtain - gun crime represents 1% of all crimes - in the us guns are constituional gun crime represents 9% of all crime........ you dont have to be a rocket scientist to work out the solution.

Originally posted by miniminch
uk guns are banned and difficult to obtain - gun crime represents 1% of all crimes - in the us guns are constituional gun crime represents 9% of all crime........ you dont have to be a rocket scientist to work out the solution.
OK, just to clarify, does that mean "crime" will go down by 8% in the US if they ban guns? :suspect:

Chirs Rock was pretty much bang on when he suggested that the best thing to curtail gun crime would be to raise the price of a bullet to $5,000:

"I would stick a cap in your ass...if I could afford it. I'm gonna get another job, start saving and then, in a few months time your ass has had it."

American films and television.

Nothing but bang, bang you're dead. Kids brainwashed into the power of the gun, whether in films or via news coverage.

A life taken so cheaply in the name of Entertainment. Video games where the objective is to kill as many people as you can as quick as you can and as violently as you can.

Rap music that glorifies this culture, that shouts from the rooftops the merits of shooting a policeman.

And you expect a schoolkid to wander what on earth HE's done wrong.

And scariest of all: It's coming to a place near you.

wasnt the kid from an indian reserve?

long before tv and rap was around people were shooting his kind, maybe the wild west culture is to blame!

I'm reminded of Charlton Heston's brandishing a rifle at an NRA rally after the Columbine massacre and barking the line:

"From my cold, dead hand!"

For most people, the arrangement that he suggests would be more than acceptable.

I blame chav culture, and people like top US wrestler John "I am a chav and I'm going to Wrestlemania" Cena...

Originally posted by Rich
I blame chav culture, and people like top US wrestler John "I am a chav and I'm going to Wrestlemania" Cena... Don't blame a poor idiot like John Cena, blame the cynical WWE hacks that dressed him up like that and told him to impersonate Vanilla Ice!

Seriously though, professional wrestling and the WWE in particular is a good indicator of the lowest common denominator as far as US society is concerned. Want to see what's currently at the top of a blue-collar slob's agenda, tune in to Raw or Smackdown and weep.

Originally posted by miniminch
uk guns are banned and difficult to obtain - gun crime represents 1% of all crimes - in the us guns are constituional gun crime represents 9% of all crime........ you dont have to be a rocket scientist to work out the solution.

and now we actually think about this....

oh yeah, gun crime in the uk before hand guns were banned, 1%, gun crime afterwards still 1% (although actually it has risen), conclusion, banning guns has no effect on gun crime as people who murder aren't worried about an additional charge of unlawfully owning a handgun.

duh.

Earlier this month in Houston a 4-year-old boy shot his 2-year-old brother with a gun he took from his mother's purse. Whilst searching for reports about this story I found a report on the CBS News website which included a link to a report on gun crime in America. Amongst other things the report includes descriptions of 20 recent shooting incidents at schools (they only include "major incidents") and 32 shooting incidents at workplaces.

The report on the shooting in Houston is on this page:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/14/national/main679935.shtml

If you click on the link marked "Interactive - Guns In America - Enter" the report should appear in a pop-up window.

It has been widely reported that the current US government has been influenced by a pressure group which produced a manifesto called the Project for a New American Century. If they had been genuinely concerned about protecting the American people given that there are about 20,000 victims of homicide per year in the US perhaps they should have written a manifesto called the Project for a New American Constitution and made banning the private ownership of guns their first priority.

What we really need to do, with urgency, is to stop the import of replicas, as most crime involving handguns on these shores comes from those that have been 'converted' from this state.

As for the US, guns are so widespread, and the gun lobby so powerful, that tragedies like these will always occur. It's part of the culture and it's gotten to the point where it's impossible to do anything about it.

silly Amercicans believe its ok to have guns freely available. This is always going to keep happening more and more.

ban guns, most of the problem is solved.

Knives are a real problem too!! lets ban them!! we can get evrething precut, ooooo look at that tree! it looks like it could use a hug! :hihi:

Originally posted by adaline
Knives are a real problem too!! lets ban them!! we can get evrething precut, ooooo look at that tree! it looks like it could use a hug! :hihi:
I think adaline has hit a good point here.

I remember some time ago, in South Africa, people were getting killed by having tyres full of petrol placed around them and burned (allegedly) by the ANC.

So, do you ban the ANC, obviously not, they went on to set up a legitimate and respected government.

Do you ban tyres, no, unworkable (I hope you agree).

Do you ban petrol (and I know some of you would like to), no, because 1) unworkable, and 2) they'd just find another combustible.

Hmmm, what to do.

How about, we prosecute murderers for murder.

Stop blaming the tools, get the people who are responsible.

C'mon, don't lose sight of the obvious, killers kill, all the rest just complicates life for the rest of us.

Originally posted by Carmine
I'm reminded of Charlton Heston's brandishing a rifle at an NRA rally after the Columbine massacre and barking the line:

"From my cold, dead hand!"

For most people, the arrangement that he suggests would be more than acceptable.

Except didnt it turn out he didnt say that there at all? The footage was taken from somewhere else...and spliced with footage from Denver...

Originally posted by foo_fighter
I think adaline has hit a good point here.

I remember some time ago, in South Africa, people were getting killed by having tyres full of petrol placed around them and burned (allegedly) by the ANC.

So, do you ban the ANC, obviously not, they went on to set up a legitimate and respected government.

Do you ban tyres, no, unworkable (I hope you agree).

Do you ban petrol (and I know some of you would like to), no, because 1) unworkable, and 2) they'd just find another combustible.

Hmmm, what to do.

How about, we prosecute murderers for murder.

Stop blaming the tools, get the people who are responsible.

C'mon, don't lose sight of the obvious, killers kill, all the r
est just complicates life for the rest of us.

but a lot of murders happen in the heat of the moment. If the gun wasnt there it wouldnt happen. People would not just happen to have a tyre and petrol handy. In SA the murders were premeditaed surely, and hence a different kettle of fish.
I cant believe people were carrying tyre and petrol around just in case they needed them!

Originally posted by nightrider
but a lot of murders happen in the heat of the moment. If the gun wasnt there it wouldnt happen.
So should we remove from society anything which *may* be used in a murder, in the heat of the moment,

say for example,

knives

household ornaments

hands

feet

heads

Ludicrous I know, but by your argument, we stop theft by having nothing of value.

No, we discourage theft, by discouraging thieves.

Originally posted by foo_fighter
So should we remove from society anything which *may* be used in a murder, in the heat of the moment,

say for example,

knives

household ornaments

hands

feet

heads

Ludicrous I know, but by your argument, we stop theft by having nothing of value.

No, we discourage theft, by discouraging thieves.

but with a gun its so much easier to kill, than with say a vase. So without guns I am sure the murder rate would fall because it would be harder to kill others. Also with guns you can kill from afar i.e you dont see the terror in the victims eyes again making it easier to kill.

Real easy, u just go to ur corner shop, get a hand canon for a fiver, go meet some guys and easily pull the triger on their naughty arse.

Originally posted by nightrider
but with a gun its so much easier to kill, than with say a vase. So without guns I am sure the murder rate would fall because it would be harder to kill others. Also with guns you can kill from afar i.e you dont see the terror in the victims eyes again making it easier to kill.

we banned legal ownership of handguns 8 years ago. Net result, increase in gun crime. Gun crime is not committed by people who legally own guns. If they are prepared to own them illegally when they could have them legally, what makes you think that taking away the legal guns will have any affect on the illegal ones???

You are probably right about "if the gun wasn't there the murder wouldn't happen", but banning legal ownership will make absolutely no difference to the number of guns used in crime, or at least it certainly didn't in this country.

Originally posted by Cyclone
and now we actually think about this....

oh yeah, gun crime in the uk before hand guns were banned, 1%, gun crime afterwards still 1% (although actually it has risen), conclusion, banning guns has no effect on gun crime as people who murder aren't worried about an additional charge of unlawfully owning a handgun.

duh.
Well said.

Yes a tragic event, one cannot counter a nutter blowing his top, the UK gun laws were some of the toughest and most rigorously enforced in the world even before Dunblane, and the nutter who murdered those children.

A knee jerk reaction by the government does not adress the situation. It just means that there are more illegal firearms in the UK than ever before.

Originally posted by Cyclone
we banned legal ownership of handguns 8 years ago. Net result, increase in gun crime. Gun crime is not committed by people who legally own guns. If they are prepared to own them illegally when they could have them legally, what makes you think that taking away the legal guns will have any affect on the illegal ones???

You are probably right about "if the gun wasn't there the murder wouldn't happen", but banning legal ownership will make absolutely no difference to the number of guns used in crime, or at least it certainly didn't in this country.

but in america a lot of times legal guns are used. e.g. burglar brakes into a house, owner confronts him and somehow burglar gets the gun and shoots owner. I was quite shocked to be told that many gun killings involve people being shot with their own legal guns. So if they were illegal the weapon is not there and less people would die.

I agree the gun ban in england was silly because most killings were not happening due to sport type guns. i.e. those used in marksmanship competitions.

It is (and was before dunblane) illegal to own say a machine gun or a magnum 45. It isnt illegal in the usa and most killings are happening with the types of guns you can legally buy. And as I said above often legal guns are used in killings from what I understand.

its not about criminals commiting gun crimes its about kids and other non-criminals having easy access to firearms and in the heat of the moment killing people. These highschool killings don't happen here in a similar way that they do in the States as its very difficult and expensive for kids to get hold of guns....

Originally posted by robbie
its very difficult and expensive for kids to get hold of guns....
It's impossible for kids to *legally* get hold of guns, but *illegally*, well, I'm afraid that's not too difficult at all.

Originally posted by nightrider
but in america a lot of times legal guns are used. e.g. burglar brakes into a house, owner confronts him and somehow burglar gets the gun and shoots owner. I was quite shocked to be told that many gun killings involve people being shot with their own legal guns. So if they were illegal the weapon is not there and less people would die.

I agree the gun ban in england was silly because most killings were not happening due to sport type guns. i.e. those used in marksmanship competitions.

It is (and was before dunblane) illegal to own say a machine gun or a magnum 45. It isnt illegal in the usa and most killings are happening with the types of guns you can legally buy. And as I said above often legal guns are used in killings from what I understand.

you should probably do some more research before you get involved in a discussion like this.

A magnum 45 was a perfectly legal gun to own before dunblane. But it makes no difference, a 9mm, 10mm, .40, .44, .38, .45, magnum load or otherwise. They all kill you.
For that matter, the still legal long barrel target pistols (called carbines to fit into legislation) will kill people as well.
Automatic weapons were banned in the late 80's weren't they? After a single incident involving them if I remember correctly.

Originally posted by Cyclone
you should probably do some more research before you get involved in a discussion like this.

A magnum 45 was a perfectly legal gun to own before dunblane. But it makes no difference, a 9mm, 10mm, .40, .44, .38, .45, magnum load or otherwise. They all kill you.
For that matter, the still legal long barrel target pistols (called carbines to fit into legislation) will kill people as well.
Automatic weapons were banned in the late 80's weren't they? After a single incident involving them if I remember correctly.

The point is there was no epidemic of people in england killing with legal guns. Ergo a ban wont help. In the usa people ARE killing with legal guns, so if you make them harder to get hold of I fail to see how that would not have some impact on the death rate from gunshot wounds.

Originally posted by nightrider
The point is there was no epidemic of people in england killing with legal guns. Ergo a ban wont help. In the usa people ARE killing with legal guns, so if you make them harder to get hold of I fail to see how that would not have some impact on the death rate from gunshot wounds.

i can find no statistics to refute or support your contention that most gun crime in America is committed with legally held weapons. But my own gut feeling on the subject is that you are wrong.

Originally posted by Cyclone
i can find no statistics to refute or support your contention that most gun crime in America is committed with legally held weapons. But my own gut feeling on the subject is that you are wrong.

But even if is only 10 or 20% making it harder for that 10 or 20% to get guns will have an impact I would think.

...but it controls the crimenal population growh so well!

Originally posted by foo_fighter
It's impossible for kids to *legally* get hold of guns, but *illegally*, well, I'm afraid that's not too difficult at all.

not true here. The only place I've known to get guns is off the contact of a dodgy drug dealer (in Hull). I very much doubt its easy for kids to get guns of there would be a hell of a lot of guns around.

They are not easy to come by unless you specificly make a huge effort to go search for them.

Originally posted by robbie
They are not easy to come by unless you specificly make a huge effort to go search for them.
OK, if you say so. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by robbie
They are not easy to come by unless you specificly make a huge effort to go search for them.

So.....

If guns are so hard to come by why has gun crime in the UK gone up so much since the handgun ban?

There are no longer legally held guns to steal or use in anger; there is simply the underground market place in weapons that the Government have chosen to ignore because it wasn't an 'easy target' like legal weapons.

The anti-gun legislation has all the hallmarks of 'vote getting' legislation. It hasn't stopped the problem it was supposed to address but makes it look like the Government is actually doing something useful.

Joe

Reading this thread led me to this site:

Gun Control Network (http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm)

With this quote:

The two 1997 Firearms (Amendment) Acts resulted in the prohibition of the vast majority of handguns in Great Britain. As a result of the prohibition and the surrender exercise, more than 162,000 handguns were handed in to local police forces

In my opinion, removing hand guns from legal ownership will stop outrages like Dunblane happening. You can't stop the criminals who want guns getting them but you can stop accidental killings and spree killings by the mentally unstable.

Originally posted by JoeP
So.....

If guns are so hard to come by why has gun crime in the UK gone up so much since the handgun ban?

There are no longer legally held guns to steal or use in anger; there is simply the underground market place in weapons that the Government have chosen to ignore because it wasn't an 'easy target' like legal weapons.

The anti-gun legislation has all the hallmarks of 'vote getting' legislation. It hasn't stopped the problem it was supposed to address but makes it look like the Government is actually doing something useful.

Joe

but this is apples and oranges. The uk never had an epidemic of gun killings. The usa does. So just because it had no effect on englands rates does not mean it would not have effects on the rates in the usa where guns are used to kill people far more often than in the UK.

Originally posted by JoePritchard
So.....

If guns are so hard to come by why has gun crime in the UK gone up so much since the handgun ban?



The recent steep increases in gun crime in the UK are largely the consequence of turf wars between drug dealers. In that period crack cocaine has become much more widely available as dealers have moved into new areas (and come into conflict with other dealers) and for dealers competing for a share of this growing market guns are usually their weapon of choice, mainly because they assume that their rivals will have guns. However, once someone has a gun they may not only use it in the drugs trade: they may also use it in personal squabbles.

In the UK the problem of gun crime is largely concentrated in a few small parts of a few cities such as London, Manchester, Birmingham, Nottingham, Bristol and Leeds. For example, the car park of the Hayfield pub in Chapeltown in Leeds was the scene of numerous shootings before the pub was closed and knocked down, there has recently been a spate of shootings in Nottingham and the gang culture in Birmingham was at the centre of a recent high-profile court case. Here are some recent reports from BBC News Online about gun crime in the UK:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3761626.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3737662.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3667985.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/3550725.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/3421195.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3112818.stm

Originally posted by max
In my opinion, removing hand guns from legal ownership will stop outrages like Dunblane happening. You can't stop the criminals who want guns getting them but you can stop accidental killings and spree killings by the mentally unstable.

"1996: Guilty verdict on school machete attacker
A man who attacked three children and four women with a machete at an infant school teddy bears' picnic has been found guilty of seven counts of attempted murder.
Horrett Campbell, 33, a paranoid schizophrenic, was told he faces life imprisonment for the attack at St Luke's infants school, in Blakenhall, Wolverhampton, in July this year."

Fortunately, because Lisa Potts stepped in so bravely no one was killed, but attacks do happen:

14 March, 2005
"Man killed in street axe attack
The victim had suffered serious head injuries
A man has died after being attacked with an axe in a wealthy London suburb.
Officers found a man, armed with an axe or hatchet, standing over a body in Eton Avenue, Swiss Cottage, north-west London, at about 0940 GMT on Monday."

Originally posted by max
Reading this thread led me to this site:

Gun Control Network (http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm)

With this quote:



In my opinion, removing hand guns from legal ownership will stop outrages like Dunblane happening. You can't stop the criminals who want guns getting them but you can stop accidental killings and spree killings by the mentally unstable.

naeve in the extreme.

For a start the reason that Dunblane could happen was a failure in the existing system. That person should never had had a firearm in the first place.
And secondly, having no firearm would not have stopped him killing people. He had a car right, i'm sure he could have killed as many children by driving it into the playground.

Guns are a tool, like any other tool they can be used for the wrong purposes. But we haven't banned kitchen knives because you might kill someone with them. We didn't ban commercial air traffic after 9/11. Gun crime has gone up (for whatever reasons) since the ban on most handguns in the uk, which is no surprise at all since a fraction of a percent of crimes were committed with legally held weapons.

Originally posted by nightrider
Except didnt it turn out he didnt say that there at all? The footage was taken from somewhere else...and spliced with footage from Denver... Highly possible as the footage appeared in Bowling for Columbine and Michael Moore has never been above "tweaking" such things for his own advantage...but it showcases the attitude that many in the NRA hold. The fact is that while Heston and his NRA circus rolled into town and made great media captial from the terrible incident, Marilyn Manson cancelled his own appearances in the area. Whether he did that out of respect or fear for damage to his image or person, the fact is that he did it at all.

That fact still bothers me, that both gun culture and Manson were a strong influence on those kids lives...but in the aftermath America blamed the latter over the former rather than questioning why a child should have access to an automatic assualt weapon.

Originally posted by JoeP
So.....

If guns are so hard to come by why has gun crime in the UK gone up so much since the handgun ban?

There are no longer legally held guns to steal or use in anger; there is simply the underground market place in weapons that the Government have chosen to ignore because it wasn't an 'easy target' like legal weapons.

The anti-gun legislation has all the hallmarks of 'vote getting' legislation. It hasn't stopped the problem it was supposed to address but makes it look like the Government is actually doing something useful.

Joe

the implication of the post was that anyone can easilly get a gun. This is absolute rubbish. If you are in that kind of criminal underworld then yes you can. Kids cannot just get them off the streets as was implied.

Typical rubbish overreaction.

Originally posted by robbie
the implication of the post was that anyone can easilly get a gun. This is absolute rubbish. If you are in that kind of criminal underworld then yes you can. Kids cannot just get them off the streets as was implied.

Typical rubbish overreaction.

who's was the rubbish overreaction with first, the poster or the government. There was clear evidence that legal handguns were not the source of most gun crime. So banning them was either an overreaction or a publicity stunt.

Originally posted by Cyclone
So banning them was either an overreaction or a publicity stunt.
Both.
And an arse in both cases - I used to enjoy a bit of shooting from time to time.
A knee jerk reaction to a nasty incident, no doubt won lots of votes - lost mine.

Originally posted by dafoot
Both.
And an arse in both cases - I used to enjoy a bit of shooting from time to time.
A knee jerk reaction to a nasty incident, no doubt won lots of votes - lost mine.

completely agree, my dad still goes shooting with rifles, not sure if he's allowed to sign guests in anymore.