View Full Version : How is this ASBO justified?
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050226/344/fdbkz.html
She was issued with an ASBO forbidding her to go near rivers, canals and railway lines in case she attempted suicide.
If she fails to comply with this she could face imprisonment (providing she messes up her suicide attempt again).
Should this have been classed as Anti Social Behaviour?
Or is it because her failings mean that she persistently puts a burden on the emergency services?
Kristian 21-03-2005, 23:22 That's disgusting! :rant: She clearly needs help, not an ASBO!
K x
sparklesista 21-03-2005, 23:28 I agree.
They should be concentrating on helping her instead of trying to punish her?
If she wants to take her own life surley she could do that just about anywhere?
Maybe they have banned her from rivers and train tracks etc because of the time, money and effort it would take the police to clean it up if she was to commit suicide there.
If she takes an overdose, which can be easily done anywhere, it would be less bother for the police and need less resources!
Kristian 21-03-2005, 23:32 Originally posted by sparklesista
I agree.
They should be concentrating on helping her instead of trying to punish her?
If she wants to take her own life surley she could do that just about anywhere?
Maybe they have banned her from rivers and train tracks etc because of the time, money and effort it would take the police to clean it up if she was to commit suicide there.
If she takes an overdose, which can be easily done anywhere, it would be less bother for the police and need less resources!
You know, you're right Sparkle! Taking your own life is everyones' right, sad as it maybe; however, putting others at risk in doing so is very wrong. That said, if this lady is so depressed, who knows what her state of mind is like. :(
K x
sparklesista 21-03-2005, 23:42 I just realised that it sounds like I'm agreeing for the lady to take her own life by overdosing... I'm not!
What I meant was the police would rather she took her own life away from train tracks and bridges etc because it would be less work for them.
I think they should concentrate on helping her to save her life and learn to lead a happy one at that by somehow resolving the issues she is clearly dealing with instead.
Kristian 21-03-2005, 23:44 Originally posted by sparklesista
I just realised that it sounds like I'm agreeing for the lady to take her own life by overdosing... I'm not!
What I meant was the police would rather she took her own life away from train tracks and bridges etc because it would be less work for them.
I think they should concentrate on helping her to save her life and learn to lead a happy one at that by somehow resolving the issues she is clearly dealing with instead.
Sorry if you thought I was disagreeing with you; I wasn't! :) The lady in question clearly needs help; I just hope they can help her in time! :(
K x
Don_Kiddick 22-03-2005, 00:14 Wouldn't a season ticket to the Don Valley Baths be cheaper? :o
Kristian 22-03-2005, 00:31 Originally posted by Don_Kiddick
Wouldn't a season ticket to the Don Valley Baths be cheaper? :o
What's that signature Don? 'It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice'? Bad lad!
K x
I don't think this was the intended purpose of ASBO's was it?
Surely if she is at risk of harming herself or others then she can be 'sectioned' and receive medical treatment/help.
Where's my 'Devil's Advocate' hat....ahhh....there it is!
It is someone's right to end their life; however, it's not their right to distress the train driver who runs over them, for example. This is a common problem in the Tube in London.
If she wants to kill herself by throwing herself in a river or canal, then what happens to the well meaning soul who leaps in to save her life and dies in the attempt?
If she needs help and is willing to accept counselling, then clearly that would be the best approach to take here. But if she won't take help, then you either section her under the Mental Health Act or the only other option you have is this sort of thing.
Joe
foo_fighter 22-03-2005, 07:28 "Kim Sutton, 23, has been made the subject of a unique anti-social behaviour order (Asbo) barring her from rivers, multi-storey car parks, train tracks and bridges following a string of incidents in Bath.
Police and emergency services have been called out three times to pluck her from the River Avon and had to stop trains to cut her down from a railway parapet."
We don't know all the facts, just what was written above, so the local magistrate was probably in a better position to make the call than we are.
At least this way, if she does something daft again, then the authorities can do something about it.
Don_Kiddick 22-03-2005, 07:42 Originally posted by Kristian
What's that signature Don? 'It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice'? Bad lad!
K x
I know! :heyhey: - we really need a tongue-in-cheek smilie don't we? ;)
I might have to change me sig for the time being, eh?
It does sound like an ASBO is totally inappropriate here but I couldn't let this ride
What I meant was the police would rather she took her own life away from train tracks and bridges etc because it would be less work for them
I think given a choice police officers would rather not have to clean up after suicides at all. For the reasons Joe has already pointed out. Until recently I didn't give much thought as to who cleans up the physical "mess" after a suicide (& there's quite a bit if someone has jumped off somewhere) but apparently more often than not it is a police officer & obviously it's not a pleasant job.
We have serious issues regarding mental illness & its treatment in this country that need addressing. It looks to me as if the ASBO has been used as a sticking plaster for the inadequacies of 'the system' in this case. It's not the first time & it's one of the arguments used by those not in favour of the measure: that it's already being used to paper over problems that need to be addressed in other social policies.
Originally posted by JoePritchard
Where's my 'Devil's Advocate' hat....ahhh....there it is!
It is someone's right to end their life; however, it's not their right to distress the train driver who runs over them, for example. This is a common problem in the Tube in London.
If she wants to kill herself by throwing herself in a river or canal, then what happens to the well meaning soul who leaps in to save her life and dies in the attempt?
If she needs help and is willing to accept counselling, then clearly that would be the best approach to take here. But if she won't take help, then you either section her under the Mental Health Act or the only other option you have is this sort of thing.
Joe
Legally it isn't their right. Suicide is still illegal in this country.
It seems odd that her suicide attempts consistently fail, "having to be cut down from a railway parapet", sounds more like she's after the attention than actually trying to kill herself.
Don_Kiddick 22-03-2005, 09:04 Failed attempted suicide should carry the death penalty.
Especially for those who fail more than 10 times.
:suspect: They know who they are :loopy:
Sorry, but I think the ASBO is completely justified.
If a protester for (insert one of various causes here) was repeatedly wasting police time by requiring to be removed from rivers, high buildings etc. and was given an ASBO, I'm sure we'd all agree it was appropriate. Next time, if she really means it and intends to be successful, she isn't really going to care about the consequences of the ASBO is she?
(eek don't hit me, don't hit me)
If a protester for (insert one of various causes here) was repeatedly wasting police time by requiring to be removed from rivers, high buildings etc. and was given an ASBO, I'm sure we'd all agree it was appropriate.
Maybe so but but ASBOs weren't designed to deal with those suffering from mental illness & shouldn't be used to cover over inadequacies in mental health care.
Kristian 22-03-2005, 10:42 Originally posted by Siān
Maybe so but but ASBOs weren't designed to deal with those suffering from mental illness & shouldn't be used to cover over inadequacies in mental health care.
Well said Siān! She needs help, not punishment!
K x
Originally posted by Siān
Maybe so but but ASBOs weren't designed to deal with those suffering from mental illness & shouldn't be used to cover over inadequacies in mental health care.
Can't someone who is menally ill be anti-social?
Kristian 22-03-2005, 10:50 Originally posted by Zamo
Can't someone who is menally ill be anti-social?
Of course they can, but surely an ASBO should be used on people who are behaving badly and don't have that reason!
K x
Originally posted by Kristian
Of course they can, but surely an ASBO should be used on people who are behaving badly and don't have that reason!
K x
So it is OK to commit crimes, disrupt peoples lives and in some cases traumatise them, if you have "mental health" problems?
As it happens, I don't think most people who attempt suicide are strictly speaking mentally ill. I doubt you can section someone for depression (at least not for long) so what do you do when they come out and do it all again? At some point the police have to put the rights of others before her. I think it had reached that point.
Not everyone can, or want to be, helped.
So it is OK to commit crimes, disrupt peoples lives and in some cases traumatise them, if you have "mental health" problems?
No but when this does happen then appropriate help needs to be given. An ASBO doesn't address the root of the problem in these cases at all.
As it happens, I don't think most people who attempt suicide are strictly speaking mentally ill. I doubt you can section someone for depression (at least not for long) so what do you do when they come out and do it all again?
Then you're wrong. Depression is a form of mental illness. There are varying degrees of course. I guess you could liken a 'mild' bout as the equivalent of a cold & a severe bout that leads to attempted suicide as akin to pneumonia if it helps to parallel it with a physical illness.
As for sectioning people with any form of mental illness this is usually a last resort (used when someone is considered to be a danger to themselves or to others) there is far more to mental health care than this. Unfortunately it can be very difficult for people to get access to the treatment they need & using legislation that was never intended to be used in this way does nothing to help sufferers, their families & the communities they live in.
Not everyone can, or want to be, helped
That's true in oh so many different ways...
She will almost certainly have been offered help, and if she isn't receiving it its probably because she refused it. But my point was that the ASBO probably is 'helping' her to some extent:
If she doesn't really intend to commit suicide then it is helping to keep her out of situations where she is endangering her life whilst trying to attract attention to herself. As I said, if she really does intend to kill herself an ASBO won't stop her as she won't be concerned with the consequences of breaking it.
foo_fighter 22-03-2005, 11:47 Originally posted by Siān
As for sectioning people with any form of mental illness this is usually a last resort (used when someone is considered to be a danger to themselves or to others) there is far more to mental health care than this.
...and attempting to kill ones-self doesn't fall in this category because...
:confused:
...and attempting to kill ones-self doesn't fall in this category because...
I don't think I suggested that it didn't. It does indeed go to show how inadequate the help available is if repeated attempts at suicide result in an ASBO - which was my point.
She will almost certainly have been offered help, and if she isn't receiving it its probably because she refused it.
Where to start on that one! Would you say that to someone not satisfied with the standard of health care they wrre being offered if they had a physical illness?
As I said, if she really does intend to kill herself an ASBO won't stop her as she won't be concerned with the consequences of breaking it.
So when she carries on offending (oddly enough telling someone who's ill that they need to stop manifesting the symptoms of their illness rather than treating them doesn't tend to work) we'll just open a few more prisons ??
Prison & the mentally ill (http://www.rethinking.org.uk/facts/rethink/mental.html)
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