Trouble with this thread is:

that some posters are so vehemently anti-immigration they sound a little racist (giving the impression they would support compulsory repatriation for non whites, etc).

some posters are so defensive about race they can't look at the evidence objectively without feeling threatened.

Thats how you see it.... in colour!

Good point The Rat - I should have said 'non-Brits'.

Good point The Rat - I should have said 'non-Brits'.

Good man.... there are many colours to Britain.

Just to challenge your final point: it's good for everyone (or neutral at least) if migrant workers send money home. Ignoring the social benefits to families back home, it:

1) encourages their economies meaning more jobs and therefore less likelihood of people coming here looking for work;

2) creates wealth in those countrie some of which will bve used to purchase goods in this country therefore stimulating our exports.

Why don't we just GIVE our money away to these countries so they can buy our exports? :rolleyes: Would be a lot less complicated... oops, sorry, that's what we are effectively doing already, isn't it?...

StarSparkle

You're being a little flippant Ms Sparkle methinks....

In a similar vein then.....why not just GIVE money to the people who make our exports and tell 'em to down tools 'cos Xmas has come.
That would be a lot less complicated too.

It's in our interests to help the developing world become wealthy cos we live in a world economy where trade puts food on our tables. It allows all to survive until we mine the planet of all its resources and 99% of us in the West die 'cos we won't be able to look after ourselves when the economy totally collapses.

[QUOTE=Smunchkin;3336504]History is a wonderful thing to look back on, so many civilisations have taken over or crushed one another down the ages, ...............

You have a chip on your shoulder, (Sphinx):[QUOTE]

Sphinx also seems to forget that many of the countries that we colonised were constantly in a state of violent unrest due to warring tribes and factions led by tyrannical war lords.

It is inevitable, in an evolutionary context, that one nation will eventually overtake the rest, as Britain almost did.
I believe that Britain has done more good than harm in most of her former colonies.

I wonder how you can bear to rub shoulders everyday with we Brits Sphinx, you brim with barely repressed malevolence.

Historically, the people of this country have welcomed immigrants, have shown tolerance and have endeavoured to get along with, and understand them.
You have a nerve Sphinx, to suggest that there are racist undertones in the genuine concerns of people who fear for the future of their country and for the national identity of their children.

You're being a little flippant Ms Sparkle methinks....

In a similar vein then.....why not just GIVE money to the people who make our exports and tell 'em to down tools 'cos Xmas has come.
That would be a lot less complicated too.

It's in our interests to help the developing world become wealthy cos we live in a world economy where trade puts food on our tables. It allows all to survive until we mine the planet of all its resources and 99% of us in the West die 'cos we won't be able to look after ourselves when the economy totally collapses.

No.... its not in our interests to help the developing world.... they are so far behind us because of the way they choose to live their lives. African states and Muslim Countries do not have democratic rule.... they live with politics and religion entwined as one.... 600yr old dictates on life will never bring about a positive contribution to modern world affairs so why should we subsidise them when we know its wrong?

We don't need religious fanatics or despots of a Country to survive.... we have proven that.... what we do know is that they need us more than we need them.

No.... its not in our interests to help the developing world.... they are so far behind us because of the way they choose to live their lives.

And because we held them back while we stripped their countries of resources.

And because we held them back while we stripped their countries of resources.

Exactly when? make some positive contribution and state some facts instead of putting in a stupid comment every now and then.

Example: Zimbabwe has been governed by a genocidal maniac for the last 28yrs (Robert Mugabe) who has blamed all of his Country's woes on the British. Funny how since they kicked all the whites off their land, they went from being the most affluent and economically viable Country in Africa who used to be the bread basket of the continent to having 140k inflation and a land on its knees.... they need to rise up otherwise we might be accused of robbing their diamonds if we were to interfere. Not that we could accuse Mugabe of being racist against whites either.

With Mugabe's record.... would you fund his regime and would you not agree that he is stripping his own Country of resources like diamonds in an illegal way to pay for the lifestyles of the rich around him to stay loyal?

* snigger *

* snigger *

That's you. Pink paradise..... with no meaning.

Rat

I think we agree on a lot. It does seem wrong to support medieval regimes, and I'd be happy not to do so - but any leader of ours that sat on his hands while, say, Somalia starved, would be hounded out of office so it's not a viable option.

And many developing countries aren't like that and do have democracies. India, in the last 30 years, has been able to feed itself but still benefits from Western aid. Some of aid is diverted to corrupt politicians and that should be stopped, but overall that Aid is profitable to both countries.

your off again I didnt say it was ok I said it was better to take it over openly rather than by the back door ,please get a grasp on the English language and stop reading things that are not there a junior school pupil could quite understand what im saying ,either you have no grasp of the nuances of the English language or you are trying to raise an issue because I shot you down re your post regarding crime statistics..stop being childish you may take your ball home if you wish I will buy another one

So let me get this straight then so we can have no confusion.

Last week you argued quite strongly that we should be proud of our Empire.

Unless I'm mistaken the Empire was created by force. (with me so far)

This week you seem to be saying it's not ok to take a country by force:huh:

Which point have I failed to grasp here?

Rat

I think we agree on a lot. It does seem wrong to support medieval regimes, and I'd be happy not to do so - but any leader of ours that sat on his hands while, say, Somalia starved, would be hounded out of office so it's not a viable option.

And many developing countries aren't like that and do have democracies. India, in the last 30 years, has been able to feed itself but still benefits from Western aid. Some of aid is diverted to corrupt politicians and that should be stopped, but overall that Aid is profitable to both countries.

I go along with that, PS....

Do we both agree that immigration is good to a degree but this Government is overdoing it with no benefit other than to swell the population for no good reason?

You know he meant that quote in the context of immigrants taking over this country because they can if allowed in unchecked.... if I read it that way and you are too stupid to, then that is the answer you seek.

You have still not come up with a credible bit of evidence to back up any of your claims so far and you presume to try and discredit others.

I was right in the first place..... muppet! Titanic sank as well.

Which claim would you like the evidence for:

Crime down overall
Hospital waiting times down
Unemployment down

Digressing a little, do you not think it more than a little odd that someone could be worried about Immigrants taking over this country, when at the same time praising our nation for doing the same thing in the past.

Yes, and whole-heartedly, yes - and I say that as an immigrant. Immigrants to this country should have a +ve impact on this country. If not they should not be allowed entry.

The countries from which we accept refugees and asylum seekers should also be tightened up.

I'll rubbish it:-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/02/24/nguns24.xml

Another Rotherhammerism!

I love this paragraph:

"It was hoped that the measure would reduce the number of handguns available to criminals. According to internal Home Office statistics, however, handgun crime is now at its highest since 1993.

Now remind me again who was in power then:hihi:

Oh and if you could manage to focus on my post, it is overall crime that is down, the two main exceptions are serious crime and rape. Although I believe murder has fallen by a third.

Which point have I failed to grasp here?

The one on the top of your head.

:thumbsup:

I think that statement could be compounded to ..There are NO benefits of immigration,when we decided to embark on our world tour virtually every country we occupied benefitted from our being there,blimey we civilised most of them,what benefit do we as a country achieve from immigration,especialy from the third world countries

Another Rotherhammerism!

Do you think they might invite us back again:hihi:

Which claim would you like the evidence for:

Crime down overall
Hospital waiting times down
Unemployment down

Digressing a little, do you not think it more than a little odd that someone could be worried about Immigrants taking over this country, when at the same time praising our nation for doing the same thing in the past.

Surely accepting immigrants from war torn and starving countries has led to a new much more brutal type of criminal getting a foothold on the soft touch shores of Blighty. Some of these people through necessity to survive in their own country seem to have more than enough to fall comfortably into a criminal lifestyle over here, they just seem more than willing to go that bit further.

So let me get this straight then so we can have no confusion.

The only confusion here is that you were talking to Rotherhammer and I am answering because I find you really funny and cute. :D

Last week you argued quite strongly that we should be proud of our Empire.

He did.... in the context of the argument then on that subject and nothing to do with the argument or even touching on the subject being debated here.

Unless I'm mistaken the Empire was created by force. (with me so far)

With you? were you the driving force? perhaps you better ask yourself the question then. Any EMPIRE was created by force whether it be by the Mongols, the Muslims, the French, the Chinese, the British or the Japanese.... it happens but its not something that future generations should be held accountable for especially when they do their best to accommodate people from around the world and try to find solutions to their problems..... I wonder what I can find to blame you for, for what your great, great. great, great, Grandfather did to cause humanity harm?


This week you seem to be saying it's not ok to take a country by force:huh:

I've had a look and can't see a reference to that.... maybe you can quote it.

Which point have I failed to grasp here?

You talk utter rubbish.... grasp that point.

Another Rotherhammerism!

Do you think they might invite us back again:hihi:
Blimey I bet he's been up all night composing these retorts...and they still hold no substance.Titanic youve lost retire gracefully, your not in my league, read other peoples comments on your irrelevant posts Im not the only one thats proving you wrong

Which claim would you like the evidence for:

Crime down overall
Hospital waiting times down
Unemployment down

Digressing a little, do you not think it more than a little odd that someone could be worried about Immigrants taking over this country, when at the same time praising our nation for doing the same thing in the past.

Can you at least give some credible evidence to your claim for the third time.... a link would be good.... if what you say is true, it must be out there for all to see so you can show us all where you get your evidence from?

I'm still waiting but knowing you.... I won't hold my breath.

With you? were you the driving force? perhaps you better ask yourself the question then. Any EMPIRE was created by force whether it be by the Mongols, the Muslims, the French, the Chinese, the British or the Japanese.... it happens but its not something that future generations should be held accountable for especially when they do their best to accommodate people from around the world and try to find solutions to their problems..... I wonder what I can find to blame you for, for what your great, great. great, great, Grandfather did to cause humanity harm?



I wouldn't disagree on most of this point, however I fail to see how an individual can condone the taking over of a country by force, whilst condemning individuals who choose to come here to work.

Yes, and whole-heartedly, yes - and I say that as an immigrant. Immigrants to this country should have a +ve impact on this country. If not they should not be allowed entry.

The countries from which we accept refugees and asylum seekers should also be tightened up.

Likewise if anyone emigrated from here to another Country also. :thumbsup:

Yeah.... asylum seekers come in many guises and more often than not have a detrimental effect as in religious extremists but that is a different topic altogether.

Blimey I bet he's been up all night composing these retorts...and they still hold no substance.Titanic youve lost retire gracefully, your not in my league, read other peoples comments on your irrelevant posts Im not the only one thats proving you wrong

No if I want to get into your league I'd better let my six year old post instead.

I'm not sure The Rat is condemning the individuals that try to come here - be it for work, benefits, health services, etc. After all, if you live in poverty (compared to us) it's worth a try. What have they got to lose?

I think it's the Authorities that allow it, and don't manage it, that he and I have an issue with.

I wouldn't disagree on most of this point, however I fail to see how an individual can condone the taking over of a country by force, whilst condemning individuals who choose to come here to work.

Who has done this?

We have no control over who comes here to work.... it is their right from now on.... what happened in our colonial past is well and truly gone.... we are at the mercy of anyone who wants to move here now from Europe/Asia or Africa at the express invitation of our labour Government..... Phew! they got their own back then?

No if I want to get into your league I'd better let my six year old post instead.
aye aye passing the buck now:hihi:

Can you at least give some credible evidence to your claim for the third time.... a link would be good.... if what you say is true, it must be out there for all to see so you can show us all where you get your evidence from?

I'm still waiting but knowing you.... I won't hold my breath.

Figures from the Home Office

Crime figures from 1995-2006/7

Vandalism down 11%
Burglary down 59%
Vehicle theft down 61%
Household theft down 47%
Personal theft down 45%
All BCS crime down 42%

BCS violent crime did not show a statistically significant change over the
last year but there have been substantial falls since the mid 1990s (a fall
of 41% or over half a million fewer victims since 1995).

Police recorded violence against the person fell by 1% from last year. This
was the first fall in the recorded number for eight years. There was a 9%
decrease in most serious violence against the person last year.

Most serious violence against the person accounted for just 2% of total
violence against the person offences in 2006/07, but includes the crimes
of homicide, attempted murder and more serious woundings.

Police recorded robbery increased by 3% over the last 12 months. This is
16% below the 2001/02 peak in robbery.

Do you have the figures regarding crime within different ethnic groups ?

Can you at least give some credible evidence to your claim for the third time.... a link would be good.... if what you say is true, it must be out there for all to see so you can show us all where you get your evidence from?

I'm still waiting but knowing you.... I won't hold my breath.

Unemployment

The claimant count was 793,500 in February 2008, down 2,800 over the previous month and down 126,500 over the year. This is the lowest figure since June 1975. The claimant count has now fallen for 17 consecutive months.

Figures from the Home Office

Crime figures from 1995-2006/7

Vandalism down 11%
Burglary down 59%
Vehicle theft down 61%
Household theft down 47%
Personal theft down 45%
All BCS crime down 42%

BCS violent crime did not show a statistically significant change over the
last year but there have been substantial falls since the mid 1990s (a fall
of 41% or over half a million fewer victims since 1995).

Police recorded violence against the person fell by 1% from last year. This
was the first fall in the recorded number for eight years. There was a 9%
decrease in most serious violence against the person last year.

Most serious violence against the person accounted for just 2% of total
violence against the person offences in 2006/07, but includes the crimes
of homicide, attempted murder and more serious woundings.

Police recorded robbery increased by 3% over the last 12 months. This is
16% below the 2001/02 peak in robbery.

Where is the link to these figures? have you also got the police recorded crime figures in the UK not the ones the home office massage? :hihi:

Where is the link to these figures? have you also got the police recorded crime figures in the UK not the ones the home office massage? :hihi:

Don't pay any attention to any statistics Titanic produces. Statistic-collecting is his hobby - unfortunately, he simply doesn't understand them, as he's proved time and again on this Forum.

StarSparkle

Figures from the Home Office

Crime figures from 1995-2006/7

Vandalism down 11%
Burglary down 59%
Vehicle theft down 61%
Household theft down 47%
Personal theft down 45%
All BCS crime down 42%

BCS violent crime did not show a statistically significant change over the
last year but there have been substantial falls since the mid 1990s (a fall
of 41% or over half a million fewer victims since 1995).

Police recorded violence against the person fell by 1% from last year. This
was the first fall in the recorded number for eight years. There was a 9%
decrease in most serious violence against the person last year.

Most serious violence against the person accounted for just 2% of total
violence against the person offences in 2006/07, but includes the crimes
of homicide, attempted murder and more serious woundings.

Police recorded robbery increased by 3% over the last 12 months. This is
16% below the 2001/02 peak in robbery.
Now forgive me if I seem a bit suspicious of these figures,and Im not saying your making them up I wouldnt put nothing past this or any government but all the figures are down and are decreasing on a yearly basis,now are these figures for convictions or actual crimes I only ask because Iv just find this from the police themselves :-
Violence against the person up every year from 1999-2006
Sexual offences...ditto
Robbery...ditto
Criminal damage..ditto
other ..ditto
just to be fair:-
Burglary,theft,fraud and drugs show a reduction
Total offences show a rise every year except 2001/2
Now why the obvious discrepancies
oh sorry I forgot//its here I havent just thought figures up and quoted them;)
http://www.justice.gov.uk/docs/arrests-for-recorded-crime-england-and-wales.pdf

Don't pay any attention to any statistics Titanic produces. Statistic-collecting is his hobby - unfortunately, he simply doesn't understand them, as he's proved time and again on this Forum.

StarSparkle

Thanks StarSparkle.... I'll just put him down as another numpty not worthy of a reply.... he has given me the same impression anyway, arguing with an idiot is like banging your head against a brick wall.... its a painful experience you don't need to put yourself through. :thumbsup:

Unemployment

The claimant count was 793,500 in February 2008, down 2,800 over the previous month and down 126,500 over the year. This is the lowest figure since June 1975. The claimant count has now fallen for 17 consecutive months.
Its very easy to find statistics to back your argument..what about this one:-
Ok its the Mail but I can use it for argumentative purposes:-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=475517&in_page_id=1770

Now forgive me if I seem a bit suspicious of these figures,and Im not saying your making them up I wouldnt put nothing past this or any government but all the figures are down and are decreasing on a yearly basis,now are these figures for convictions or actual crimes I only ask because Iv just find this from the police themselves :-
Violence against the person up every year from 1999-2006
Sexual offences...ditto
Robbery...ditto
Criminal damage..ditto
other ..ditto
just to be fair:-
Burglary,theft,fraud and drugs show a reduction
Total offences show a rise every year except 2001/2
Now why the obvious discrepancies
oh sorry I forgot//its here I havent just thought figures up and quoted them;)
http://www.justice.gov.uk/docs/arrests-for-recorded-crime-england-and-wales.pdf

No both postings are actually correct, mine was based on the British Crime Survey and Police recorded crime, yours I believe is on the number of arrests.

Now I'm no criminolgist but I would like to hazard a guess that the more criminals you arrest, the fewer crimes will be committed.

Wow we could actually agree on something here!

No both postings are actually correct, mine was based on the British Crime Survey and Police recorded crime, yours I believe is on the number of arrests.

Now I'm no criminolgist but I would like to hazard a guess that the more criminals you arrest, the fewer crimes will be committed.

Wow we could actually agree on something here!

Oops posted on wifes login, now I'm likely to be the victim of a violent crime:hihi::hihi::hihi:

:hihi:Where is the link to these figures? have you also got the police recorded crime figures in the UK not the ones the home office massage? :hihi:

Now why is it you can agree on one set of government figures when it suits you and not when it doesn't:hihi:

Well, actually I think you are quite wrong.... since when were or are you an employer to make such claims?

I have employed people in the past, and having worked for ages in jobcentres, I've seen first hand how many people who are British won't take jobs which are theirs on a plate, yet immigrants will.

You really think so? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7069779.stm is an example from last year. No reliable gov. figures have been given out since and immigration has intensified. It was put about from some sources that immigrants took 4 out of every 5 jobs created in the last ten years. I doubt that claim but I can well believe the article quoted had some truth.... it makes a dismal prospect for the British children leaving school.... they are not all lazy you know.

I know they're not, and my three had better not be! It still doesn't alter what I've seen day after day after day with my own eyes by people out of work, and in an interview.

I don't think anyone is disputing that fact.... I would go as far as to say that these people are as much as up in arms as the rest of us at the present flow of immigration into their Country as well.

They were invited and made a huge contribution when they were needed and still are.... they are part and parcel of the UK as we know it.... no other European immigrants wanted to come here and help us rebuild then but now that we are re-built.... every European wants to come here and help us spend our wealth.

And relations between East and West were so cordial in, say, 1962. What a ridiculous assertion.

Do you think its worth over inflating a population for the sake of it when there is no gain overall? we are an Island, we have no borders for people to expand into....

What about our own potential labour force that will never stand a chance against an immigrant who can fill a role when an employer thinks of profit before training.... could we not be conditioning the youth to a life on the dole? who is to blame there then, the govt. the employer or the immigrant?

Sometimes you have to think of family first as I'm sure you do when the time suits you.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=402607&in_page_id=1770

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/28/nimm128.xml

Capitalism at work. Don't get me wrong, I do have some concerns, but often what is really rampant racism gets dressed up as 'genuine concern', and that is what people (including myself) often rail against. The Heil's article also says Britons contribute in much the same way (with regard to a positive financial effect), so would that organ and Migrationwatch then be happy if, percentagewise, non-Britons would be, percentagewise, contributing more than Britons?

Take a wild guess at the answer to that. Can you see why these reports are seen as thinly veiled racism?

This of course is ignoring the fact that people in general (migrants or indigenous) have to work their way up the ladder to earn more. If you've only been in the country for a short time, no matter how skilled you are, you may well be on a low wage; the same as a Briton who is young and has just joined the labour market.

Thanks StarSparkle.... I'll just put him down as another numpty not worthy of a reply.... he has given me the same impression anyway, arguing with an idiot is like banging your head against a brick wall.... its a painful experience you don't need to put yourself through. :thumbsup:

All this time you've been wanting this data and now you're backing away, are you related to Star Sparkle by any chance:hihi:

All this time you've been wanting this data and now you're backing away, are you related to Star Sparkle by any chance:hihi:

No, we're not related, thank you very much :hihi:

It's just that I've had previous experience of your statistical 'arguments' and know not to pay any attention to them :hihi:

StarSparkle

No, we're not related, thank you very much :hihi:

It's just that I've had previous experience of your statistical 'arguments' and know not to pay any attention to them :hihi:

StarSparkle

To be fair he did ask for them!:hihi:

To be fair he did ask for them!:hihi:

Not your personal take on them.... just a link to where you gathered your statistics from..... still waiting. :roll:

A lot of offences have been taken out of the system because of the refusal to take many minor offences to court,Police cautions and official cautions seem to be widely used nowadays plus the reluctance to take somebody to court for a first offence this will contribute to crime statistics which will be obviously a lot lower than should be,as regards ethnic crime I find that its proving impossible to find any statistics regarding ethnic offending,this doesnt surprise me due to the reluctance of the powers that be ever admitting the faults in the system,maybe now the economic question has been brought into the open the gvernment will release all statistics re immigration and its problems...Im not holding my breath though

Its very easy to find statistics to back your argument..what about this one:-
Ok its the Mail but I can use it for argumentative purposes:-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=475517&in_page_id=1770

But if you read the article it is clear these people aren't claiming Benefits, so are you advocating now that we force everyone to work who chooses not to:huh:

That argument sounds incredibly Socialist for one whose political opinions seem so right-wing.

Let's make the rich and partners of the rich work to pay for the poor, sounds good to me!

Not your personal take on them.... just a link to where you gathered your statistics from..... still waiting. :roll:

Home Office website- British Crime Survey section.

Won't post a link, as it has more impact when people have to look at them:hihi:

A lot of offences have been taken out of the system because of the refusal to take many minor offences to court,Police cautions and official cautions seem to be widely used nowadays plus the reluctance to take somebody to court for a first offence this will contribute to crime statistics which will be obviously a lot lower than should be,as regards ethnic crime I find that its proving impossible to find any statistics regarding ethnic offending,this doesnt surprise me due to the reluctance of the powers that be ever admitting the faults in the system,maybe now the economic question has been brought into the open the gvernment will release all statistics re immigration and its problems...Im not holding my breath though

I think you'll find that the British Crime Survey contact 50,000 to establish details of unreported crime, it is recognised that people don't report some crimes which is why they do this.

I believe this is then merged with Police details of recorded crime to give us the figures which show most crime is going down with the exceptions being serious crime and Rape.

In relation to the ethnic issue, I find it interesting how crime is going down when we have had such an influx of Immigrants, maybe all our less desirables have moved elsewhere:hihi:

But if you read the article it is clear these people aren't claiming Benefits, so are you advocating now that we force everyone to work who chooses not to:huh:

That argument sounds incredibly Socialist for one whose political opinions seem so right-wing.

Let's make the rich and partners of the rich work to pay for the poor, sounds good to me!
Im not advocating anything Im just making a point that it is very easy to post links and statistics to back any side of an argument.I suppose you could say Im apolitical simply for the reason I refuse to vote for anybody whose sole reason for running for office is in my opinion selfish ,as far as Im concerned the lot of them are completely useless and take the posts just to boost their bank accounts.I dont vote but if I had to the only party I would even consider voting for is the BNP or similar and even then radical changes would have to made in the running of that party and a lot of there agenda would have to be radically changed,,take away the current obvious racist attitude in the party and ,run by the right people ,they may,just may have a foundation to build on.Until that happens,if ever,I will continue to file my electoral slip where it has gone for the last I dont know how many years,straight in the dustbin

I have employed people in the past, and having worked for ages in jobcentres, I've seen first hand how many people who are British won't take jobs which are theirs on a plate, yet immigrants will.

I know they're not, and my three had better not be! It still doesn't alter what I've seen day after day after day with my own eyes by people out of work, and in an interview.

Okay.... the work shy who refuse these jobs offered by the job centre are British.... in your ethical view, can these jobs pay a living standard of wage to them? and please be honest about this as you may be tarring the British as a load of work shy people who prefer to live below the bread line on benefits.

I didn't know that immigrants had access to job centres? ( EU immigrants, no.... asylum seekers, yes) the job centre is part of the system of claiming benefits..... if EU immigrants have access to this service.... surely this must mean they have access to benefits as well?.... am I right in saying that they only need to pay into the system for nine months before they can claim job seekers allowance and housing benefit and maybe go on to claim income support if they found themselves ill for any reason? and am I right to assume that when the Government move against the incapacitated to "make" them work again, that a proportion of those are actually and without doubt immigrants? How many from the EU in your opinion?



And relations between East and West were so cordial in, say, 1962. What a ridiculous assertion.

Who mentioned 1962? I merely said that Indians, Pakistani's, French, American, Chinese, West Indians, Africans, who have settled here and in probably a second or third generation who are British will feel the same threat as the rest of us about the continuing rise in European immigration.... can't you see that? even if you think its great they take the low paid jobs and keep the price of labour down? Are you employing any of these people?

Capitalism at work. Don't get me wrong, I do have some concerns, but often what is really rampant racism gets dressed up as 'genuine concern', and that is what people (including myself) often rail against. The Heil's article also says Britons contribute in much the same way (with regard to a positive financial effect), so would that organ and Migrationwatch then be happy if, percentagewise, non-Britons would be, percentagewise, contributing more than Britons?

You can't have it both ways.... genuine concern can very well lead to racism, there has to be a balance and that balance is not making up false arguments for unlimited immigration but taking people in based on the needs of the Country..... we are not a never ending begging bowl to use.... you may rail against it until you find yourself in a position that you are no longer in your job because an immigrant can do just as well as you but at a cheaper rate.

Its very easy to find statistics to back your argument..what about this one:-
Ok its the Mail but I can use it for argumentative purposes:-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=475517&in_page_id=1770

Have you actually read the article? Let's pick a few nice quotes.

They are not listed as unemployed but do not go to work because they are sick, looking after family or simply refuse to find a job.

While they are not claiming unemployment benefits, many rely on other handouts such as incapacity benefit.

So let's have the workhouses for the infirm. What I find incredibly ironic, is that the bastion of upholding 'family life and values', is now attacking those who do precisely that. Stay at home parents with a working partner, who aren't claiming benefits too, are included in these ridiculous figures.

Some 1.89million of the current total are students, 2.35million are carers for elderly relatives or stay-athome mothers, and 2.04million are on long-term sickness. ....... but then .......

"The 9.6million people of working age not working in Britain today represent a huge pool of wasted talent," he said.

"Many of these people could work, and would want to work, if given the right incentives and support."

So students are "a pool of wasted talent" as well now? Over FOUR MILLION people, who would usually represent what the Heil loves, are used for a screaming headline.

A further 198,000 are on temporary sickness leave, 619,000 have retired early and 35,000 are classed as 'discouraged workers', meaning they are not interested in finding work.

They're even having a go at those who have earned enough to retire early, and enjoy the fruits of their labour? Over 600,000! Now if that isn't hypocritical, I don't know what is!

OK, I know this was off topic, and you did only use this to show how stats can 'prove' anything (which is why I've pulled them apart), but all it did to me was reinforce my firmly held belief that the Heil talks tosh.

Also slighty O/T but just with regards to the crime stats stated earlier supposedly going down. Sometimes it's best to get an outsiders perspective of the real state of Britain after 11 years of Labour Hell.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1725547,00.html

Okay.... the work shy who refuse these jobs offered by the job centre are British.... in your ethical view, can these jobs pay a living standard of wage to them? and please be honest about this as you may be tarring the British as a load of work shy people who prefer to live below the bread line on benefits.

Not all are British for a start; let me say I'm not blinkered on that, but unless someone has debts, or other outgoings (such as former CSA payments), you won't be worse off out of work, than in it. With regard to the obvious extra outgoing in travel, people are only asked to go for jobs which are 'reasonable'. As for the second sentence, I'd change your wording, as you appear to be defending people who would rather do nothing, than earn their corn. I would have thought that you would want those who 'prefer' to live on JSA to actually take up gainful employment.

I didn't know that immigrants had access to job centres?

So long as they have leave to remain, of course they do!

( EU immigrants, no.... asylum seekers, yes)

Both can. People in work can use jobcentres too; some in part-time work need to.

the job centre is part of the system of claiming benefits..... if EU immigrants have access to this service.... surely this must mean they have access to benefits as well?.... am I right in saying that they only need to pay into the system for nine months before they can claim job seekers allowance and housing benefit and maybe go on to claim income support if they found themselves ill for any reason? and am I right to assume that when the Government move against the incapacitated to "make" them work again, that a proportion of those are actually and without doubt immigrants? How many from the EU in your opinion?

They'd need to pass the "Habitual Residency Test" to claim benefits, so no. It's usually two years of living in the UK when benefits can be claimed, unless someone has been accepted as a refugee, and some very specific other circumstances. Obviously, there will be a percentage of people who are immigrants who are deemed as too ill to work.

I have no idea how many, but the main thing I'd say is that if they can legally claim on the basis of being deemed legally incapable of work, I haven't got a problem, and I'd imagine the number is relatively small.

Who mentioned 1962? I merely said that Indians, Pakistani's, French, American, Chinese, West Indians, Africans, who have settled here and in probably a second or third generation who are British will feel the same threat as the rest of us about the continuing rise in European immigration.... can't you see that? even if you think its great they take the low paid jobs and keep the price of labour down? Are you employing any of these people?

What you actually said was that no other Europeans (from which I infer 'Eastern Europeans') would help at the time when our friends from the Commonwealth were asked to come to help.

Well, they couldn't really, given how there was no way for us to get to the East, and vice versa. To use that as justification for 'Eastern European bashing' is spurious at best.

You can't have it both ways.... genuine concern can very well lead to racism, there has to be a balance and that balance is not making up false arguments for unlimited immigration but taking people in based on the needs of the Country..... we are not a never ending begging bowl to use.... you may rail against it until you find yourself in a position that you are no longer in your job because an immigrant can do just as well as you but at a cheaper rate.

I've some sympathy for that, but really 'twas ever thus, by immigrant or by British citizen. I've never made any argument for unlimited immigration, false or not, and I do have concerns myself. I'm not blind to problems, but I do think that we should look at this carefully, and not go by the screaming headlines.

So far as crime statistics are concerned, Police recorded crime figures are useless because half of crimes go unreported.

The British Crime Survey is also useless because it does not include drug offences, murder, fraud, and sexual offences, nor does it include children.

The Police recorded crime figures keep going up yet the BCS figures keep going down.

Neither the BCS nor police recorded crime cover benefit fraud, white-collar and corporate crime and environmental crime.

In August 2004, Michael Howard stated “crime has risen by almost 850,000 in the last five years”. In July 2004, Tony Blair wrote “crime has fallen by 25%”.

A Home Office study in 2000 attempted to estimate the number of offences committed in England and Wales and concluded 60 million were committed in 1999/2000. This is over five times that recorded by the BCS and around 10 times police recorded crime.

<snip>.... once we have built on every bit of open land left?
A trifle dramatic.


I have no argument in the fact that we need immigrant labour for certain projects at certain times but its foolish to think we can invite 800,000 building workers over, deny our own population a chance to start in the industry and expect them to go home after they have finished the job.... these figures are so exaggerated.... its criminal to publish them.

800,000 building workers?

Show me somewhere that is offering apprenticeships these days? the employer won't waste his time training people when he can call on qualified people from elsewhere and make an instant profit.... a bit short sighted, wouldn't you agree?
Ok not apprenticeships, I am showing my age :hihi: I couldn't agree more about the importance of training. One reason I am so supportive of the labour initiative to introduce union learning reps

As funny as it may be to you.... the UK will soon be in a similar state to your house..... its not very big either.

Lol I think you under estimate the mess that is my house

<snip>Your care link from 2006 is simply a job agency sort of "report".... its well known that there are too many immigrants in the NHS at present, so much so that newly qualified Nurses cannot get employment within the NHS in this Country and are being trained at a cost of £45k each over 3yrs to find jobs in other sectors (all the brainstorm of new Labour).

Well known? Perhaps you should tell migrationwatch they are still reporting "1. The present requirement for foreign nurses is clear, but needs to be placed in context. " Ref (http://www.migrationwatchuk.com/Briefingpapers/health/foreign_nurses.asp)

Funny how you shoot yourself in the foot with this one, even if it is a link of little substance once again. ( you need to find some credible sources of information to back your statements up with.) I hope the Poles do decide to return home, not out of malice but out of concern for their own homeland, its funny however, as your link suggests, that when things are looking rosier at home then they decide to abandon us and return there after taking all the benefits with them we have afforded them for their efforts here.... talk about rats leaving a sinking ship. :D

:huh:
How are polish builders coming here when we have a shortage of builders for the duration of the work doing anything but contributing to the uk?

I state again.... we have a need for immigrants but in a measured and responsible way....
Agreed.

it is proven that we are only inflating the population in what we are doing now with no economic benefit to the British people.... a bit like giving a room in your house to someone for free.... its senseless.
there are enough conflicting reports on the impact of immigration that it is simply untrue to say the impact is proven to be bad. The problem is quantifying the impact. In particular the impact of the increased work done that an artificially high workforce contributes beyond what work would have otherwise been done.
In the medical profession for example there are concerns that planned immigration controls will have an impact on our health services. We already have reports of problems recruiting locums Ref (http://www.hsj.co.uk/news/2008/03/posts_left_open_as_national_locum_shortage_takes_h old.html) and with midwives Ref (http://www.immigrationmatters.co.uk/bia_remove_medical_occupations_from_national_short age_list_for_work_permits_080208.html). This article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/apr/01/immigrationpolicy.immigration1) lists other professions - "employers worry that immigration has peaked and say labour shortages are continuing, particulary in civil engineering projects such as the Olympics site, agriculture and care homes"

The obvious people who will suffer for such a policy is people claiming asylum from Asia and Africa, people who need a chance not like the economic migrants from Europe.
A genuine concern.

But if you want to control immigration is it better to do it nationally, or through europe, as Sarkozy (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7314300.stm) wants us to, or a combination of both?

What about this view of fortress europe (http://www.no-fortress-europe.eu/showPage.jsp?ID=2505)?

Not all are British for a start; let me say I'm not blinkered on that, but unless someone has debts, or other outgoings (such as former CSA payments), you won't be worse off out of work, than in it. With regard to the obvious extra outgoing in travel, people are only asked to go for jobs which are 'reasonable'. As for the second sentence, I'd change your wording, as you appear to be defending people who would rather do nothing, than earn their corn. I would have thought that you would want those who 'prefer' to live on JSA to actually take up gainful employment.

I'm not sure what you mean about altering my second sentence..... it was all one paragraph and the sentiment was the same, so you either agree or disagree with my statement. You have made it plain in your statement that there is a reason for some some Brits or others to stay out of work if the work offered doesn't cover them financially.... others would argue that if immigrants
can afford to do it then so can a man who supports a family here on the wages an immigrant would accept.... you have already said that immigrants can claim on the system after paying into it for two years.... its not such a hardship if the immigrant knows the ropes as they say...... and can have a continual holiday at the expense of the tax payer.... I doubt all immigrants do this but you must admit that its open to abuse and it happens?

So long as they have leave to remain, of course they do!

I'm glad you cleared that point up.... I didn't know immigrants have access to job centres.


Both can. People in work can use jobcentres too; some in part-time work need to.

I didn't know that both EU immigrants and asylum seekers had access to job centres either..... you see, you are educating me here.

One thing that doesn't feel right is my knowledge that asylum seekers are not allowed to work in this Country until their claim is proven and they are issued a national insurance number and they become part of the British population.... in the meantime, all asylum seekers simply claim dole.... is that right?

They'd need to pass the "Habitual Residency Test" to claim benefits, so no. It's usually two years of living in the UK when benefits can be claimed, unless someone has been accepted as a refugee, and some very specific other circumstances. Obviously, there will be a percentage of people who are immigrants who are deemed as too ill to work.

So all asylum seekers get aid from day one and the only European immigrants to get such a levy would be ones that are too ill to work..... that begs the question of their occupation on their visa in the first place don't you think? Why don't you just be honest and spill the beans about people making claims from middle eastern Countries and what they get away with....

I have no idea how many, but the main thing I'd say is that if they can legally claim on the basis of being deemed legally incapable of work, I haven't got a problem, and I'd imagine the number is relatively small.

Being fair....so would I.


What you actually said was that no other Europeans (from which I infer 'Eastern Europeans') would help at the time when our friends from the Commonwealth were asked to come to help.

Well, they couldn't really, given how there was no way for us to get to the East, and vice versa. To use that as justification for 'Eastern European bashing' is spurious at best.

I won't argue with you on that.... you are right and I was wrong. Sincerely.


I've some sympathy for that, but really 'twas ever thus, by immigrant or by British citizen. I've never made any argument for unlimited immigration, false or not, and I do have concerns myself. I'm not blind to problems, but I do think that we should look at this carefully, and not go by the screaming headlines.

Its been a pleasure to talk to you HH....we may not see eye to eye on every issue but I have a feeling of respect for you.... I do believe that you are a gentleman of honour.

A trifle dramatic.


800,000 building workers?

Ok not apprenticeships, I am showing my age :hihi: I couldn't agree more about the importance of training. One reason I am so supportive of the labour initiative to introduce union learning reps

Lol I think you under estimate the mess that is my house

Well known? Perhaps you should tell migrationwatch they are still reporting "1. The present requirement for foreign nurses is clear, but needs to be placed in context. " Ref (http://www.migrationwatchuk.com/Briefingpapers/health/foreign_nurses.asp)

:huh:
How are polish builders coming here when we have a shortage of builders for the duration of the work doing anything but contributing to the uk?

Agreed.

there are enough conflicting reports on the impact of immigration that it is simply untrue to say the impact is proven to be bad. The problem is quantifying the impact. In particular the impact of the increased work done that an artificially high workforce contributes beyond what work would have otherwise been done.
In the medical profession for example there are concerns that planned immigration controls will have an impact on our health services. We already have reports of problems recruiting locums Ref (http://www.hsj.co.uk/news/2008/03/posts_left_open_as_national_locum_shortage_takes_h old.html) and with midwives Ref (http://www.immigrationmatters.co.uk/bia_remove_medical_occupations_from_national_short age_list_for_work_permits_080208.html). This article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/apr/01/immigrationpolicy.immigration1) lists other professions - "employers worry that immigration has peaked and say labour shortages are continuing, particulary in civil engineering projects such as the Olympics site, agriculture and care homes"

A genuine concern.

But if you want to control immigration is it better to do it nationally, or through europe, as Sarkozy (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7314300.stm) wants us to, or a combination of both?

What about this view of fortress europe (http://www.no-fortress-europe.eu/showPage.jsp?ID=2505)?

Look Wildcat.... I have not changed my views and no matter how many obscure left/liberal links you add to your post's are not going to make me think any different than I do.... dissect my posts all you wish but I have only ever responded to your claims or counter claims.... I run a successful business and it depends on reliable hard working individuals, not the kind an employment agency can bus to you on demand but dedicated individuals and they all happen to be British and highly qualified.... I guess there is hope for Britain then?

I'm not sure what you mean about altering my second sentence..... it was all one paragraph and the sentiment was the same, so you either agree or disagree with my statement. You have made it plain in your statement that there is a reason for some some Brits or others to stay out of work if the work offered doesn't cover them financially.... others would argue that if immigrants
can afford to do it then so can a man who supports a family here on the wages an immigrant would accept.... you have already said that immigrants can claim on the system after paying into it for two years.... its not such a hardship if the immigrant knows the ropes as they say...... and can have a continual holiday at the expense of the tax payer.... I doubt all immigrants do this but you must admit that its open to abuse and it happens?

It was just the use of the word 'prefer'. Somewhat nitpicky, I know, but .....

With regard to things such as payments for estranged kids, they can increase when someone finds work, and so the net income can be paltry. Immigrants would have to be living off something in the interim two years, which will be through work, and legal at that. Yes, the system is open to abuse, but from anybody, not just immigrants.

I'm glad you cleared that point up.... I didn't know immigrants have access to job centres.

I didn't know that both EU immigrants and asylum seekers had access to job centres either..... you see, you are educating me here.

Actually, I was a bit previous with regard to asylum seekers, so apologies.

One thing that doesn't feel right is my knowledge that asylum seekers are not allowed to work in this Country until their claim is proven and they are issued a national insurance number and they become part of the British population.... in the meantime, all asylum seekers simply claim dole.... is that right?

Well, they don't claim dole, they receive NASS payments, which are set at 40% of Income Support levels. I agree with you about the right to work from day one of entry though. Given how long it can take for people to be granted leave to remain, indefinite or not, it's a terrible waste of talent in my eyes.

So all asylum seekers get aid from day one and the only European immigrants to get such a levy would be ones that are too ill to work..... that begs the question of their occupation on their visa in the first place don't you think? Why don't you just be honest and spill the beans about people making claims from middle eastern Countries and what they get away with....

What I meant was that there are a number of immigrants who, when eligible for help, may be ill. If they have failed the HRT to claim benefits, but are ill, they're in Carey Street.

I won't argue with you on that.... you are right and I was wrong. Sincerely.

And I posted an inaccuracy earlier as well. 1-1!

Its been a pleasure to talk to you HH....we may not see eye to eye on every issue but I have a feeling of respect for you.... I do believe that you are a gentleman of honour.

And I reciprocate the entente cordiale!

That's you. Pink paradise..... with no meaning.

Ouch, I'm hurt by your high-brow retort.

The telly prog last night on immigration was interesting.
And confirms the veiw that most sensible people have - there need to be more controls.

Felt sorry for the black guy with the carpet cleaning business. His small scale business can't compete with the bigger firms who employ immigrant slave labour and undercut him by 30% and more. He'll be out of a job pretty soon.

This sort of thing lies at the crux of most peoples objections.
The better off gain in terms of cheap wage bills. Their suburban neighbourhoods are far from the places where most immigrants settle.

Meanwhile wages are kept down artificially, and Brown doubles the tax of the lowest paid workers - but hey - the immigrants don't mind a doubling of their tax - they are still earning much more than they could back home. (The 'legal' immigrants that is - the illegals are happy to work tax free for board and lodge).

Rivers might not be running red - yet - but give it time - what a lovely future we are handing to our children.

Can I rise a couple of questions to the community?
I work in education (UoS), and I know that our department, which is definitely not the worst in UK, is struggling to find british PhD students. This is just because nobody wants to spend three more years to get PhD degree if there are other, say, more profitable possibilities. Last year we had two PhD students, this year we already have none. So we have to hire foreign PhD students. Then, after PhDs get their degree, most of them leave UK. So, if immigration is completely cut, where is UK going to take PhDs to work in science and industry? Education is continuous and uninterraptable process. You can't just say that in 10 years UK PhDs and lecturers will grow out of something.
The problem is even more obvious for me because I'm an immigrant, you probably have already noticed it because of my accent :) The average age of a lecturer at our department is over 55. In 10 years, who is going to teach students?
Normally, non-EU immigrants have no access to public funds for 5 years - until they get settled, and soon it is going to be changed to 6-9 years. Also, they have no access to the labour market (no, they have no access to "job centres"), because their work permits are connected to their employer only and can't be changed. A job is offered to non-EU immigrant only after the labour market research, which means that an employer has to prove to authorities that he widely advertised the job and couldn't have found any better employee than non-EU immigrant. Is it bad? Should this job be protected from immigrants for...ever?
I was invited for this job I'm doing now, I didn't ask it, I was invited and accepted it. The job is permanent, so there is a good possibility for me to buy a house, send my children to school, become british citizen in couple of years, finally be buried in Sheffield :) And it is still surprising for me to hear about "rivers of blood" which are "coming soon" caused by actions of "born and bred" people. So, the question is how, or in which sequence these "born and bred" are going to proceed?

The better off gain in terms of cheap wage bills. Their suburban neighbourhoods are far from the places where most immigrants settle.

Meanwhile wages are kept down artificially, and Brown doubles the tax of the lowest paid workers - but hey - the immigrants don't mind a doubling of their tax - they are still earning much more than they could back home. (The 'legal' immigrants that is - the illegals are happy to work tax free for board and lodge).

Rivers might not be running red - yet - but give it time - what a lovely future we are handing to our children.

So the Government that brought in the minimum wage are now attcking the people it was brought in for, come on think about it, think which parties voted against the minimum wage and ask yourself what a state the lower paid would be in without it.

Maybe if you ask the Tories they might repeal this legislation for you.

Can I rise a couple of questions to the community?
I work in education (UoS), and I know that our department, which is definitely not the worst in UK, is struggling to find british PhD students. This is just because nobody wants to spend three more years to get PhD degree if there are other, say, more profitable possibilities. Last year we had two PhD students, this year we already have none. So we have to hire foreign PhD students. Then, after PhDs get their degree, most of them leave UK. So, if immigration is completely cut, where is UK going to take PhDs to work in science and industry? Education is continuous and uninterraptable process. You can't just say that in 10 years UK PhDs and lecturers will grow out of something.
The problem is even more obvious for me because I'm an immigrant, you probably have already noticed it because of my accent :) The average age of a lecturer at our department is over 55. In 10 years, who is going to teach students?
Normally, non-EU immigrants have no access to public funds for 5 years - until they get settled, and soon it is going to be changed to 6-9 years. Also, they have no access to the labour market (no, they have no access to "job centres"), because their work permits are connected to their employer only and can't be changed. A job is offered to non-EU immigrant only after the labour market research, which means that an employer has to prove to authorities that he widely advertised the job and couldn't have found any better employee than non-EU immigrant. Is it bad? Should this job be protected from immigrants for...ever?
I was invited for this job I'm doing now, I didn't ask it, I was invited and accepted it. The job is permanent, so there is a good possibility for me to buy a house, send my children to school, become british citizen in couple of years, finally be buried in Sheffield :) And it is still surprising for me to hear about "rivers of blood" which are "coming soon" caused by actions of "born and bred" people. So, the question is how, or in which sequence these "born and bred" are going to proceed?

I wouldn't blame the people themselves for some of the posts, the fault lies with the control our media have over peoples opinions, I hope you find that people aren't racist towards you and that their concerns (misguided they may be) are generalised.

So the Government that brought in the minimum wage are now attcking the people it was brought in for, come on think about it, think which parties voted against the minimum wage and ask yourself what a state the lower paid would be in without it.

Maybe if you ask the Tories they might repeal this legislation for you.

Jesus Christ! you've come up with some crackers tonight.

I'd wait and see just what the picture is by the election in 2009 and how worse it has got because there is no escape from the worsening conditions and it's becoming ever clearer the last ten years of Labour are responsible for no way out.

The fallacy that Labour are competetent is coming tumbling down... the poorest have been suffering the last two years and it'll only get worse.

The Tories are quietly taking the lead already in polls in the working class southern areas, by 2009 vast swathes of the working classes nationwide will be voting blue. Ultimately the poorest will give their verdict... and it won't be pretty for Labour.

I wouldn't blame the people themselves for some of the posts, the fault lies with the control our media have over peoples opinions, I hope you find that people aren't racist towards you and that their concerns (misguided they may be) are generalised.

Media tells people what the people want to hear, otherwise people won't watch adverts mixed with that, what they want to hear :)
Of course, not. Of course, I can't blame people for saying what they think. I'm just trying to understand the way of thinking which seems to me sometimes contradictory :) Which is also quite normal, by the way.

Media tells people what the people want to hear, otherwise people won't watch adverts mixed with that, what they want to hear :)
Of course, not. Of course, I can't blame people for saying what they think. I'm just trying to understand the way of thinking which seems to me sometimes contradictory :) Which is also quite normal, by the way.
I think you will find its the people that listen to the media that are the ones who are unconditionally backing the immigration policy,the people who are anti immigration are people like me that can see beyhond the media for the simple reason we think for ourselves and can see with our own eyes just what is happening where it matters most..on the streets.I have seen this once great country torn apart thanks to the ghettos the immigration policies are producing.
People talk about integration there is very little evidence of integration coming from the Asian and other communities they tend to stick to their own I would have thought that as time went on and new generations that were born here would show evidence of wanting to integrate but instead its getting worse most of the young Asians especially seem to have a great big chip on their shoulder,the Police and other sections of the establishment are virtually powerless to act for the fear of being labelled rascist,its not the immigrants fault entirely but more the fault of so called do gooders who wave the racist banner,most of whom are white by the way ,they spout off about equal rights without having the first idea of whats going on.People spout off about equal rights ,its a load of crap theres no such thing,yes we are equal in every way but unlike the immigrant sector we dont have the race card to play so that makes them more equal than the people who were born here and can trace their families back hundreds of years in this country.
Look at most of the countries our immigrant population have come from and just take note how many are still infested with violence and cruel injustice and that is being brought into this country because the people coming in know nothing else,its not their fault its the way of their peoples customs and laws,of which we kicked out of the system a couple of hundred years ago.
Thousands of Britons gave their lives in the two world wars because they believed this country was what it was called..GREAT Britain,im sorry but as far as Im concerned they gave their lives for nothing,their memory has been sold down the river not by the immigrants themselves ,its not their fault,but by the politicians and business men who are behind it all

Less than 5 million people read a newspaper. Over 20 million watch the proven admitted biased BBC (as well as C4 News come to that)

Ergo the out-of-touch public sector leftists have the upper hand on spouting brainwashing rubbish and, yet with living real life constantly, the vast majority of the nation know it's garbage and will never conform. Just like at all the other leading world nations.

Rotherhamer, maybe you're too emotional, but I see your point. You really tend to blame asians, don't you... I'm not asian, but my experience is just an opposite. I see a lot of asian students who work. I mean really WORK hard: it's not the question of a talent or being bright in physics, maths or engineering, but the question of responsibility, attitude to studies and concentration. Also I see some strange native british students who come to my lecture already drunk and high. This doesn't offend me or something but just surprises - it's 10 o'clock in the morning :) The reason I'm writing this message is NOT to say that british people are bad and asian people are good. The reason is to show a different statistical ensemble which demonstrates the behavior opposite to that described in your post. And since there is no reason to do not believe you, I assume that both statistical ensembles exist.

:) By the way, what do you understand by the word "integration"? My favorite way of integration is to keep my body horizontal on the sofa, watch tv and read a book at the same time. Both TV and book are in english.

Rotherhamer, maybe you're too emotional, but I see your point. You really tend to blame asians, don't you... I'm not asian, but my experience is just an opposite. I see a lot of asian students who work. I mean really WORK hard: it's not the question of a talent or being bright in physics, maths or engineering, but the question of responsibility, attitude to studies and concentration. Also I see some strange native british students who come to my lecture already drunk and high. This doesn't offend me or something but just surprises - it's 10 o'clock in the morning :) The reason I'm writing this message is NOT to say that british people are bad and asian people are good. The reason is to show a different statistical ensemble which demonstrates the behavior opposite to that described in your post. And since there is no reason to do not believe you, I assume that both statistical ensembles exist.

:) By the way, what do you understand by the word "integration"? My favorite way of integration is to keep my body horizontal on the sofa, watch tv and read a book at the same time. Both TV and book are in english.

I take it you are not responsible for marking or correcting your students grammar?

I take it you are not responsible for marking or correcting your students grammar?

No, and I hope, the university managed to find someone better in languages than me :D

Rotherhamer, maybe you're too emotional, but I see your point. You really tend to blame asians, don't you... I'm not asian, but my experience is just an opposite. I see a lot of asian students who work. I mean really WORK hard: it's not the question of a talent or being bright in physics, maths or engineering, but the question of responsibility, attitude to studies and concentration. Also I see some strange native british students who come to my lecture already drunk and high. This doesn't offend me or something but just surprises - it's 10 o'clock in the morning :) The reason I'm writing this message is NOT to say that british people are bad and asian people are good. The reason is to show a different statistical ensemble which demonstrates the behavior opposite to that described in your post. And since there is no reason to do not believe you, I assume that both statistical ensembles exist.

:) By the way, what do you understand by the word "integration"? My favorite way of integration is to keep my body horizontal on the sofa, watch tv and read a book at the same time. Both TV and book are in english.
No your not seeing my point at all,Im not blaming Asians its just that they are the majority of the immigration populace,be it Asians ,Croations,Poles or whatever,the fault is not with them,the fault is with the politicians that have put the wedge in the door letting them come in as they wish with virtually no restrictions..thats the point

Jesus Christ! you've come up with some crackers tonight.

I'd wait and see just what the picture is by the election in 2009 and how worse it has got because there is no escape from the worsening conditions and it's becoming ever clearer the last ten years of Labour are responsible for no way out.

The fallacy that Labour are competetent is coming tumbling down... the poorest have been suffering the last two years and it'll only get worse.

The Tories are quietly taking the lead already in polls in the working class southern areas, by 2009 vast swathes of the working classes nationwide will be voting blue. Ultimately the poorest will give their verdict... and it won't be pretty for Labour.

Yeah whatever!

The Pensioners will vote for the abolition of Pension Credit, Working mums will want the Child Care provisions scrapped, the low paid will fight to abolish the Minimum wage and the sick will vote for a NHS with massive waiting times.

You better watch out folks,here come the Party that opposed all of the above:loopy:

No your not seeing my point at all,Im not blaming Asians its just that they are the majority of the immigration populace,be it Asians ,Croations,Poles or whatever,the fault is not with them,the fault is with the politicians that have put the wedge in the door letting them come in as they wish with virtually no restrictions..thats the point

Damn politicians get in the way of everything, bring back the days of the Empire when we could walk into other countries when we felt like it:loopy:

Damn politicians get in the way of everything, bring back the days of the Empire when we could walk into other countries when we felt like it:loopy:

Oh come on, Titanic, you can't go wheeling out that tired old phrase in response to everything.

We're living in the 21st century now, not the 19th! Get with the programme

StarSparkle

Oh come on, Titanic, you can't go wheeling out that tired old phrase in response to everything.

We're living in the 21st century now, not the 19th! Get with the programme

StarSparkle

I'm very comfortable with my thoughts on the Empire, the problem I have is with certain other posters who seem to think we should go back to those days, whilst at the same time wishing to deny people the legitimate opportunity to come here to work.

It's nonsensical in the extreme!

I'm very comfortable with my thoughts on the Empire, the problem I have is with certain other posters who seem to think we should go back to those days, whilst at the same time wishing to deny people the legitimate opportunity to come here to work.

It's nonsensical in the extreme!

It is not nonsense, it is more dangerous than that.

It is thinking politics is about self interest and power that self interest is the best way for societies to run. It is a part of the myth of social darwinism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism).

I'm very comfortable with my thoughts on the Empire, the problem I have is with certain other posters who seem to think we should go back to those days, whilst at the same time wishing to deny people the legitimate opportunity to come here to work.

It's nonsensical in the extreme!
If youve got a beef with me ,use my name Idont mind I will certainly not break my neck to report you its not my style.
This country is Great Britain,not Pakistan,Somalia,Kosovo or any kind of offshoot of those countries,it was built on the blood and sweat of thousands of British people a lot of those gave their lives to keep this country free and British,why should outsiders who have no sense of history of this country come and just walk in and gradually take it over.Do you own your house,if so you have laboured to build a home what is yours,would you want someone from outside to wait until you have modernised that house got rid of the faults and generally improved it to just walk in and say **** off part of this is mine now,no you wouldnt,and thats just what Im saying,this country was built on the sweat and blood of its inhabitants why should we just roll over now and let it be mongrolised,Blimey Iv got possesions handed down to me older than some of the countries Iv mentioned,where is their sense of history, nowhere because they havent got any,as with us it has to be earned,we done all the hard work,who's going to reap the benefits.
The British Empire was once the greatest empire on earth ,being firstly English and then British I am proud of my heritage,as should every other Briton anybody who says they are not and demean it ,in my book,is a traitor to the country,dont accuse me of racism or anything in that vein because Im not ,unless being a true patriot and loving my country is classed as rascism..
Watch the next Amir Khan fight and see how many Pakistani flags there are flying,then when you have finished counting them ,see how many Union Jacks are flying,I'll bet I know which are more predominant and thats for a British born subject,you tell me is he British or Pakistani?and where does their patriotism lie.....I know where mine lies

why should outsiders who have no sense of history of this country come and just walk in and gradually take it over.


The British Empire was once the greatest empire on earth

Could you review these two parts of your post and explain to me why I should be proud of us walking into other countries and taking them over, yet at the same time believe it unacceptable for others to come in here to take over our country (your opinions, the reality is somewhat different).

It really is very inconsistent opinions!

Watch the next Amir Khan fight and see how many Pakistani flags there are flying,then when you have finished counting them ,see how many Union Jacks are flying,I'll bet I know which are more predominant and thats for a British born subject,you tell me is he British or Pakistani?and where does their patriotism lie.....I know where mine lies

Watch the next Ashes series in Australia and see how many England flags there are from people born In Australia!

Or are we still allowed to go everywhere, whilst denying others the opportunity to come here.

Could you review these two parts of your post and explain to me why I should be proud of us walking into other countries and taking them over, yet at the same time believe it unacceptable for others to come in here to take over our country (your opinions, the reality is somewhat different).

It really is very inconsistent opinions!
You keep harping on about this,if you were a true patriot you wouldnt need telling you would instinctively know,if you need to be explained to then obviously your not a true patriot.As for the second being my opinion,if you believe the reality is different you are so out of touch with real life,do yourself a favour put the papers down,stop reading the books and go out on the streets and talk to ordinary Joe who lives there you may find you will get a very different view on life,you may not like it though.
Can I ask you a question without seeming cotroversial..You keep harping on about the injustices of the British Empire,in fact you seem altogether obsessed with it,in that respect I wonder..are you English? it just seems as though you have a great chip on your shoulder regarding the British,obviously you have no need to answer it and Im only asking out of curiosity because I detect an underlying hatred of the British in your posts

Watch the next Ashes series in Australia and see how many England flags there are from people born In Australia!

Or are we still allowed to go everywhere, whilst denying others the opportunity to come here.
I do believe Australia was initially colonised by the British,that will probably answer the first part of your question,I dont remember Pakistan,Kosovo,Somalia etc ever colonising this island,or was I absent from school that day we had that lesson in history?

This is the crux of it.

We have a culture which happily pays people to stay at home dong nothing. Work ethic is something that has been "bred out" over at least 3 generations. We import people with work ethic. People who have been brought up to toil in the fields all day to support their families rather than sit at home and sign on.

There are doubtless some immigrants who sign on, take the soft option etc, but where have they learned it from? We shouldn't allow it but the rules must be the same for all - regardless of immigration status!

It always amazes me that it is usually the people who sit in a government provided house, doing nothing that are most vocal about immigrants doing the same! What entitles anyone to these services? Birth? Skin colour? To me a scrounger is a scrounger no matter where they hail from.

We do I think need to tighten up the rules on immigration, but tightening up our social security system would be a good first step.


This post stood out for me, I agree 100% with every word. Bravo :banana:

You keep harping on about this,if you were a true patriot you wouldnt need telling you would instinctively know,if you need to be explained to then obviously your not a true patriot.As for the second being my opinion,if you believe the reality is different you are so out of touch with real life,do yourself a favour put the papers down,stop reading the books and go out on the streets and talk to ordinary Joe who lives there you may find you will get a very different view on life,you may not like it though.
Can I ask you a question without seeming cotroversial..You keep harping on about the injustices of the British Empire,in fact you seem altogether obsessed with it,in that respect I wonder..are you English? it just seems as though you have a great chip on your shoulder regarding the British,obviously you have no need to answer it and Im only asking out of curiosity because I detect an underlying hatred of the British in your posts

No chip on my shoulder, proud of some of our History and ashamed of other parts,certainly not proud of our Empire and have absolutely no desire to return to this!

No your not seeing my point at all,Im not blaming Asians its just that they are the majority of the immigration populace,be it Asians ,Croations,Poles or whatever,the fault is not with them,the fault is with the politicians that have put the wedge in the door letting them come in as they wish with virtually no restrictions..thats the point

:) and the best government for you will just move Asians out of country. Whom are you going to blame next? Because it just won't help.
Anyway, you don't see my point as well. What I tried to explain is if you will not allow immigrants to come here at all, I (and UK) will loose about 80% of good and bright students. You see a danger coming to you from immigrants, I see a good coming from immigrants (although I don't have a right to vote here, of course), and I see a danger coming from those white native chav gangs hanging around the streets of Sheffield, and you don't see a danger from them. This is just because we are talking about different native and immigrant groups, but they both exist.
Also, there are the UK laws, you know. They are not bad laws, if everybody obeys them. These laws remain mostly unchanged for quite a while, definitely longer than one UK government exists. Also, there are the european laws - and Great Britain joined EU in 1973 before I was born.
So, as a suggestion, maybe the problem is not in governments, not in foreigners, not in immigrants, but just in those people who don't want to obey the laws? And some of them are immigrants, some are not...

:) and the best government for you will just move Asians out of country. Whom are you going to blame next? Because it just won't help.
Anyway, you don't see my point as well. What I tried to explain is if you will not allow immigrants to come here at all, I (and UK) will loose about 80% of good and bright students. You see a danger coming to you from immigrants, I see a good coming from immigrants (although I don't have a right to vote here, of course), and I see a danger coming from those white native chav gangs hanging around the streets of Sheffield, and you don't see a danger from them. This is just because we are talking about different native and immigrant groups, but they both exist.
Also, there are the UK laws, you know. They are not bad laws, if everybody obeys them. These laws remain mostly unchanged for quite a while, definitely longer than one UK government exists. Also, there are the european laws - and Great Britain joined EU in 1973 before I was born.
So, as a suggestion, maybe the problem is not in governments, not in foreigners, not in immigrants, but just in those people who don't want to obey the laws? And some of them are immigrants, some are not...
The white native chav gangs ,as you call them,where are they from?when I was a kid in the 60's before the onrush of immigration,you could go anywhere ,leave your door open and there was very little in the way of trouble,ok there were fights,you will always get that,then we had the influx of immigrants ,who in their own land were brought up under the influence of knife culture and violence,since then we have had progressive increase of knife and gun violence.the white lads are not going to walk around unharmed after all whilst others are.Take a look at the cities ,where are the majority of violent crimes,with guns etc,Manchester..Moss side,London..Brixton,Sheffield.Burngreave,Bristol. .St Pauls etc now it doesnt take rocket science to spot the common denominator does it.Of course the whites have their gangs,they always have..teds..mods..rockers..skins..punks..call them what you want Iv lived through all the fads and ok there were gang fights etc and yes before somebody says anything,knives had been known to be used but not to the extent they are now and gun crime amongst the working class was virtually non existant.We could go on all day but what it boils down to really is the fact that different cultures dont and have never mixed so all you are going to get with immigrants from different cultures is enemity..it just doesnt work full stop

The white native chav gangs ,as you call them,where are they from?when I was a kid in the 60's before the onrush of immigration,you could go anywhere ,leave your door open and there was very little in the way of trouble,ok there were fights,you will always get that,then we had the influx of immigrants ,who in their own land were brought up under the influence of knife culture and violence,since then we have had progressive increase of knife and gun violence.the white lads are not going to walk around unharmed after all whilst others are.Take a look at the cities ,where are the majority of violent crimes,with guns etc,Manchester..Moss side,London..Brixton,Sheffield.Burngreave,Bristol. .St Pauls etc now it doesnt take rocket science to spot the common denominator does it.Of course the whites have their gangs,they always have..teds..mods..rockers..skins..punks..call them what you want Iv lived through all the fads and ok there were gang fights etc and yes before somebody says anything,knives had been known to be used but not to the extent they are now and gun crime amongst the working class was virtually non existant.We could go on all day but what it boils down to really is the fact that different cultures dont and have never mixed so all you are going to get with immigrants from different cultures is enemity..it just doesnt work full stop

I'll give you credit for originality, I've heard Immigration blamed (mostly incorrectly) for most things, but never before for the evolvement of CHAVS:loopy:

The white native chav gangs ,as you call them,where are they from?

FROM ASIA? :wow:

Anyway. Was just kidding, sorry :)
About chavs, do you mean something like "yes he's a *******, but he is our *******"? So the laws are different for different groups?

I'll give you credit for originality, I've heard Immigration blamed (mostly incorrectly) for most things, but never before for the evolvement of CHAVS:loopy:
Well if you would take your blinkers off and look at real life from street level instead of trawling google looking for statistics you may just start tp see what is happening,like the rest of the stastistic crawlers you have an habit of taking sentences out of context and using them to enhance your passion for said staisticsor just to be argumentative,I havent counted your replies to any posts such as this but I cant remember on reading them you making one valid point.

Anyway. Was just kidding, sorry :)
About chavs, do you mean something like "yes he's a *******, but he is our *******"? So the laws are different for different groups?
Sorry but to be honest I dont understand what contributes a chav,Iwas talking about different gan cultures,different names same people.I see things from street level I live very near a predominantly Asian area and see whats happening on a daily basis,I dont get my information from the media and my views are not from a gut reaction but from over probably a 40 year period living in the same area,when.where I used to live ,not very far from where I am now there were two Pakistani families in that area,now its 90% asian,again I blame the powers that be for this instead of spreading them around,the richer part of town wouldnt have stood for Asian families moving next door,they congregated them in one specific area giving them no opportunity to integrate,if you like they have been forced into a village culture this culture has been passed through the subsequent generations so instead of having a multi racial community they have completely seperate identities and this is the same in any city or town that has a substantial immigrant population ,You dont need to be a media vulture to recognise this.These people are here,a lot of them know no other life I have no argument on that score and you will not here me say ..send them back,what I would like to see is a cap on or a limited selective partial freeze on immigration for a number of years until the problems that are evident can be ironed out,otherwise it is not helping anybody.

You keep harping on about the injustices of the British Empire,in that respect I wonder..are you English?

Why should you care?

This reminds me of the time I was accused of being a Muslim! Then an Asian!! (as though being either would devalue my argument!)

Why not judge the poster on his views and not his ethnic origin, religion or skin colour? Why should posters be compelled to prove their racial origin or "purity" to you?

One benefit of internet based discussion is that posters' race / gender / sexual orientation / social subculture is not immediately obvious, enabling you to judge people purely on their opinions, values and views.

I detect an underlying hatred of the British in your posts

I detect some hatred in your posts! It's pretty overt though!

It's a shame that people with such extreme views become involved in discussions about immigration. You only serve to stifle the debate! Many hardworking, decent, fairminded British people would like controls on immigration, we would also enjoy a fair debate on the subject!

Your style of posting bothers me, as immigration is an issue many normal people would like to see tackled. The debate should not be the exclusive domain of the far right! Seeing the issue constantly dominated by extremists just turns normal people off.

There can never be a proper debate or progress on immigration while racists still have a platform on the issue - It leaves an unpleasant taste in the mouths of decent folk. Normal people don't want to be associated with racism.

Ironically, perhaps if you eased up in your discourse on the issue, people would be more willing to participate and we could actually get something done! You may even see results! Nobody likes extremists of any kind!

If you relpy please chuck in a couple of paragraphs, the "wall of words" is killing my eyes! (Odd how people who love the English so much often don't love written English!)

Iwas talking about different gan cultures,different names same people.


This is it. There are no different gang cultures. There is one single culture, which consists of asian, british, lithuanian etc vermins. And deporting people of different origins will not help because after all you will have to deport yourself.


..send them back,what I would like to see is a cap on or a limited selective partial freeze on immigration for a number of years until the problems that are evident can be ironed out,otherwise it is not helping anybody.

You can't send them back because they are british citizens and there is no such a place where british citizen can be sent. So, as the first stage, they will have to relinquish their citizenships, and my genetic memory :) reminds me of something that had been going on in Germany in the end of 1930th...

However, I agree with that it would be rrrreally good for Great Britain to get rid of some people of a culture described above :) Although noone will take them.

This reminds me of the time I was accused of being a Muslim! Then an Asian!! (as though being either would devalue my argument!)

I think your argument would be devaluated if you were an English banana arguing the point of a Muslim or an Asian.... who are you to tell them how they feel or even us for that matter?

Why not judge the poster on his views and not his ethnic origin, religion or skin colour? Why should posters be compelled to prove their racial origin or "purity" to you?

Would you debate the recent Zimbabwean elections to be told by your opposite that he/she was of the view that Robert Mugabe is a nice guy and is not stifling democracy, just adding to it and you suspected you were talking to a pro-zanu pf supporter and he was also Zimbabwean..... would you ask him or would you just swallow his/her bile for fear of offending him/her and in turn being called a racist? Which we will come to, further on in my post.

One benefit of internet based discussion is that posters' race / gender / sexual orientation / social subculture is not immediately obvious, enabling you to judge people purely on their opinions, values and views.

Or simply tell you what you want to hear or not, depending on the agenda they have.... are you really that naive?

I detect some hatred in your posts! It's pretty overt though!

It's a shame that people with such extreme views become involved in discussions about immigration. You only serve to stifle the debate! Many hardworking, decent, fairminded British people would like controls on immigration, we would also enjoy a fair debate on the subject!

Your style of posting bothers me, as immigration is an issue many normal people would like to see tackled. The debate should not be the exclusive domain of the far right! Seeing the issue constantly dominated by extremists just turns normal people off.

I detect a lot of hatred in a lot of your posts too.... many have been removed to save you the embarrassment. I think you stifle debate or try to by wading in at every opportunity you have to try and put down people that have a different view to you.... what makes you so right in everything you say? everyone has a different opinion on immigration, you don't hold the moral high ground on the subject, you are merely another opinion and nothing more.

There can never be a proper debate or progress on immigration while racists still have a platform on the issue - It leaves an unpleasant taste in the mouths of decent folk. Normal people don't want to be associated with racism.

Ironically, perhaps if you eased up in your discourse on the issue, people would be more willing to participate and we could actually get something done! You may even see results! Nobody likes extremists of any kind!

So racists have the platform on this issue? so anyone who becomes alarmed or upset about the present flow of immigration into this Country is now a racist? The last avenue to closing down a debate on race by a person who has lost the argument is to brand all opponents as racist.

Define normal, decent folk. The ones who are not concerned by the influx of immigrants into this Country

If you relpy please chuck in a couple of paragraphs, the "wall of words" is killing my eyes! (Odd how people who love the English so much often don't love written English!)

Why do you try to belittle this posters written grammar? is it because, in your eyes, he has nothing to add?

I think your argument would be devaluated if you were an English banana arguing the point of a Muslim or an Asian.... who are you to tell them how they feel or even us for that matter?

Ha! But I am an English banana who was not arguing in favor of either - You still accused me of being a Muslim, then Asian! As though you thought Muslim bananas care more about human rights than English ones!!!

Would you debate the recent Zimbabwean elections to be told by your opposite that he/she was of the view that Robert Mugabe is a nice guy and is not stifling democracy, just adding to it and you suspected you were talking to a pro-zanu pf supporter and he was also Zimbabwean..... would you ask him or would you just swallow his/her bile for fear of offending him/her and in turn being called a racist? Which we will come to, further on in my post.

I'd ask him if he was Zimbabwaen of course! It does remove some of the fun though, as any preconceptions about Zimbabwaens I had might cloud the issue. (This is more a problem for some than for others) Not quite the same though is it? I have never been afraid of being called a racist.

simply tell you what you want to hear or not, depending on the agenda they have.... are you really that naive?

There do seem to be some "constructed" posters on here, but they mainly argue with themselves about petty jokes and things, don't they? I don't Imagine you are a created character any more than I am? We come here to chat about more interesting topics not exchange one-liners! Are you so paranoid?

I think you stifle debate

I welcome debate! I would certainly welcome and encourage a national debate on immigration! Why can't / don't we have one? Because when the far right dominate a topic, it becomes unpalatable to decent people! The tories were right when they said "It's not racist to talk about immigration" It's not! There is however a misguided perception that it is!

Why?

Too much involvement by the far right, they're just too vocal on the subject and it's tainted it! Just like the Union Jack was for so long! Many most people want something done on immigration. This is entirely fair. How is this me stifiling debate?

So racists have the platform on this issue?
You know they do! It's their favorite (only) topic and always has been!
(just look at where this thread has ended up)

so anyone who becomes alarmed or upset about the present flow of immigration into this Country is now a racist? The last avenue to closing down a debate on race by a person who has lost the argument is to brand all opponents as racist.

Hmm, that's not at all what I said now is it? Go back and read it again, you may find you even agree with some of it!

Define normal, decent folk. The ones who are not concerned by the influx of immigrants into this Country

Again you are nowhere near understanding me! The Normal decent folk are I believe the majority and we are concerned by the mass influx of people. When we want a debate on it however - it is too easy for people to shout "racist", because of all the racists who flock to peddle their hate and nonsense!

Why do you try to belittle this posters written grammar?

Just asked him to put a couple of paras in for my (and your!) convenience!
As I said, love of the English rarely begins with love of the language in these threads.

This is it. There are no different gang cultures. There is one single culture, which consists of asian, british, lithuanian etc vermins. And deporting people of different origins will not help because after all you will have to deport yourself.



You can't send them back because they are british citizens and there is no such a place where british citizen can be sent. So, as the first stage, they will have to relinquish their citizenships, and my genetic memory :) reminds me of something that had been going on in Germany in the end of 1930th...

However, I agree with that it would be rrrreally good for Great Britain to get rid of some people of a culture described above :) Although noone will take them.
One question and then I may answer the rest of the post..Why did you omit the words preceding...send them back..? in your quote I would be really interested to know why you have quoted out of context

Well if you would take your blinkers off and look at real life from street level instead of trawling google looking for statistics you may just start tp see what is happening,like the rest of the stastistic crawlers you have an habit of taking sentences out of context and using them to enhance your passion for said staisticsor just to be argumentative,I havent counted your replies to any posts such as this but I cant remember on reading them you making one valid point.

Enlighten me about real life then, I want to know:


If I lose my job, will I be able to find one relatively quickly
If I need an operation, how long do I wait these days
Am I more likely to be the victim of crime these days
Are my children likely to have a decent Education these days
When my family become Pensioners, will they live in poverty

If the Tories get in will they repeal the minimum wage
If all the Immigrants go back, can Ronaldo stay

Why should you care?

This reminds me of the time I was accused of being a Muslim! Then an Asian!! (as though being either would devalue my argument!)

Why not judge the poster on his views and not his ethnic origin, religion or skin colour? Why should posters be compelled to prove their racial origin or "purity" to you?

One benefit of internet based discussion is that posters' race / gender / sexual orientation / social subculture is not immediately obvious, enabling you to judge people purely on their opinions, values and views.



I detect some hatred in your posts! It's pretty overt though!

It's a shame that people with such extreme views become involved in discussions about immigration. You only serve to stifle the debate! Many hardworking, decent, fairminded British people would like controls on immigration, we would also enjoy a fair debate on the subject!

Your style of posting bothers me, as immigration is an issue many normal people would like to see tackled. The debate should not be the exclusive domain of the far right! Seeing the issue constantly dominated by extremists just turns normal people off.

There can never be a proper debate or progress on immigration while racists still have a platform on the issue - It leaves an unpleasant taste in the mouths of decent folk. Normal people don't want to be associated with racism.

Ironically, perhaps if you eased up in your discourse on the issue, people would be more willing to participate and we could actually get something done! You may even see results! Nobody likes extremists of any kind!

If you relpy please chuck in a couple of paragraphs, the "wall of words" is killing my eyes! (Odd how people who love the English so much often don't love written English!)

You accuse me of hatred I gather that means racism,you seem to be confusing racism with patriotism,I do not hate anybody be they black,white yellow or sky blue pink,I just happen to believe that England is the greatest country in the world,unlike immigrants of any description I would never MY country to do so would be denying my patriotism and I truly believe that anybody who abandons their country to take up residence in another country voluntarily is unpatriotic.This country is going to the dogs,what with excessive immigration,soaring taxes and supid PC rules and regulations...but I still love it and whilst I have no power to object how its run I still ,until even that becomes un PC,my right to free speech.
I say what I see ant dont take what the media or the do gooders say at face value.
As I said earlier if being patriotic and loving my country equates to racism..so be it but the only people who will accuse me of it are the people who will up and leave this country and the people who dont care what happens to it.

Enlighten me about real life then, I want to know:


If I lose my job, will I be able to find one relatively quickly
If I need an operation, how long do I wait these days
Am I more likely to be the victim of crime these days
Are my children likely to have a decent Education these days
When my family become Pensioners, will they live in poverty

If the Tories get in will they repeal the minimum wage
If all the Immigrants go back, can Ronaldo stay



I've said it before, and no doubt I'll find myself saying it again:

You live in Cloud Cuckoo Land, if you think that life in Britain is better today on those issues than it has been in the past

I think you need a SERIOUS reality check!

In fact, I'm beginning to doubt that you're a 'real' poster at all - I think you're a joke character who's been designed to spout incredible rubbish to bait the rest of us!

StarSparkle

You accuse me of hatred I gather that means racism,you seem to be confusing racism with patriotism,I do not hate anybody be they black,white yellow or sky blue pink,I just happen to believe that England is the greatest country in the world,unlike immigrants of any description I would never MY country to do so would be denying my patriotism and I truly believe that anybody who abandons their country to take up residence in another country voluntarily is unpatriotic.This country is going to the dogs,what with excessive immigration,soaring taxes and supid PC rules and regulations...but I still love it and whilst I have no power to object how its run I still ,until even that becomes un PC,my right to free speech.
I say what I see ant dont take what the media or the do gooders say at face value.
As I said earlier if being patriotic and loving my country equates to racism..so be it but the only people who will accuse me of it are the people who will up and leave this country and the people who dont care what happens to it.

Bit at odds with your thoughts on the Empire, I thought that was all about going to different countries.

Anyway, what aspects of this country are you proud about and which do you disapprove of?

Personally, I like the idea of the NHS, Welfare State, our democracy, our Judicial system, Our policy on allowing our people to move abroad whilst letting others come here, our Education system.

What about you?

I've said it before, and no doubt I'll find myself saying it again:

You live in Cloud Cuckoo Land, if you think that life in Britain is better today on those issues than it has been in the past

I think you need a SERIOUS reality check!

StarSparkle

Could you give me a period in time when any of these areas were better?

Enlighten me about real life then, I want to know:


If I lose my job, will I be able to find one relatively quickly
If I need an operation, how long do I wait these days
Am I more likely to be the victim of crime these days
Are my children likely to have a decent Education these days
When my family become Pensioners, will they live in poverty

If the Tories get in will they repeal the minimum wage
If all the Immigrants go back, can Ronaldo stay


1.Yes if your capable
2.As long as it takes, the list does get longer after all the more immigrants the longer the NHS list grows
3.I very much doubt you would I think you would go nowhere near the crime spots,hence your lack of understanding and need to quote doctored statistics
4.If they live in an area and attend schools with a minimum ethnic attendance ..yes they will not be held back whilst the ethnic attenders learn rudimentary english
5.Only you and your family can answer that I dont have access to your finances
6.Not really qualified to answer that I have no interest in politicians they are there for their own good nobody elses
6.He's got money so like all the other upper class rich he can make his own rules up..they do now so thats not changing anything

Could you give me a period in time when any of these areas were better?

The 70s, for one.

StarSparkle

Bit at odds with your thoughts on the Empire, I thought that was all about going to different countries.
Anyway, what aspects of this country are you proud about and which do you disapprove of?

Personally, I like the idea of the NHS, Welfare State, our democracy, our Judicial system, Our policy on allowing our people to move abroad whilst letting others come here, our Education system.

What about you?

You really are obsessed with the Empire, aren't you? Change the record, for heaven's sake.

This is silly, I'm obviously not talking to a real person here.

StarSparkle

Bit at odds with your thoughts on the Empire, I thought that was all about going to different countries.

Anyway, what aspects of this country are you proud about and which do you disapprove of?

Personally, I like the idea of the NHS, Welfare State, our democracy, our Judicial system, Our policy on allowing our people to move abroad whilst letting others come here, our Education system.

What about you?
I go to different countries,Im going to Greece in june ..but like our soldiers who founded the Empire Im coming home to live
I just love England and being English.. full stop.I may not like all thats happening to the country but I will never abandon it

The 70s, for one.

StarSparkle
Ah the 70's ..Slade Sweet,Glam rock,cheap beer,good wages...heaven...oops Maggie Thatcher..never mind you have to take the good with the bad:cool:

Ah the 70's ..Slade Sweet,Glam rock,cheap beer,good wages...heaven...oops Maggie Thatcher..never mind you have to take the good with the bad:cool:

Maggie Thatcher was the 80s though...

StarSparkle

Maggie Thatcher was the 80s though...

StarSparkle
Stand corrected I substitute Edward Heath and the three day week then..told you I have no interest in politics:D

1.Yes if your capable
2.As long as it takes, the list does get longer after all the more immigrants the longer the NHS list grows
3.I very much doubt you would I think you would go nowhere near the crime spots,hence your lack of understanding and need to quote doctored statistics
4.If they live in an area and attend schools with a minimum ethnic attendance ..yes they will not be held back whilst the ethnic attenders learn rudimentary english
5.Only you and your family can answer that I dont have access to your finances
6.Not really qualified to answer that I have no interest in politicians they are there for their own good nobody elses
6.He's got money so like all the other upper class rich he can make his own rules up..they do now so thats not changing anything

Your answers don't seem to support your statement that the country is going to the dogs, I identified key areas which are important to people and your responses hardly portay a picture of gloom and despair.

Maybe things aren't as bad as you think.

Your answers don't seem to support your statement that the country is going to the dogs, I identified key areas which are important to people and your responses hardly portay a picture of gloom and despair.

Maybe things aren't as bad as you think.
Like Star Sparkle says cloud cuckoo land you cant even identify sarcasm
Can I add another question to the ones you refuse to answer...how old are you?

Ha! But I am an English banana who was not arguing in favor of either - You still accused me of being a Muslim, then Asian! As though you thought Muslim bananas care more about human rights than English ones!!!

You argue human rights as though you think it means the right to live.... it is indeed so but human rights go far beyond this.... terrorists in this Country that can't be got rid of from a society that doesn't want them because they have human rights? Where were the human rights of the intended victims to be rid of them once and for all?

I'd ask him if he was Zimbabwaen of course! It does remove some of the fun though, as any preconceptions about Zimbabwaens I had might cloud the issue. (This is more a problem for some than for others) Not quite the same though is it? I have never been afraid of being called a racist.

So even in a previous post where you slammed a poster for presuming to ask a persons ethnicity..... you would of course do so if you were unsure but it does remove some of the fun though? What do you consider to be the height of hypocrisy?

There do seem to be some "constructed" posters on here, but they mainly argue with themselves about petty jokes and things, don't they?

I think you might be getting slightly introspective there.

I don't Imagine you are a created character any more than I am? We come here to chat about more interesting topics not exchange one-liners! Are you so paranoid?

Am I not a created character? What! aren't you?


I welcome debate! I would certainly welcome and encourage a national debate on immigration! Why can't / don't we have one? Because when the far right dominate a topic, it becomes unpalatable to decent people! The tories were right when they said "It's not racist to talk about immigration" It's not! There is however a misguided perception that it is!

Why?

Too much involvement by the far right, they're just too vocal on the subject and it's tainted it! Just like the Union Jack was for so long! Many most people want something done on immigration. This is entirely fair. How is this me stifiling debate?

No! most people want a debate about immigration but its silly little people like you who go around screaming "racist" at everyone in your immature manner that are precisely the same kind of people that stamp around and try to stifle the very debate you presume to encourage..... you are a very unconvincing teller of the truth.


You know they do! It's their favorite (only) topic and always has been!
(just look at where this thread has ended up)

Who do and what?.... explain the category of person you are talking about and give me an understanding of how you classified that person.... and why they are below you..... if you can, you've not addressed any real point I have made previously.... sheer waffle will not win your argument.

Hmm, that's not at all what I said now is it? Go back and read it again, you may find you even agree with some of it!

Sorry.... I don't agree with you.

Again you are nowhere near understanding me! The Normal decent folk are I believe the majority and we are concerned by the mass influx of people. When we want a debate on it however - it is too easy for people to shout "racist", because of all the racists who flock to peddle their hate and nonsense!

Why should I or anyone understand you when you clearly have extremist thoughts of your own.... you accuse people of being paranoid and you use the term "we" as though you represent the only true and right way of thinking or dealing with the issue of immigration in this Country.... there are other forms of opinion on this as well and some very different ones but who are you to tell people their place?.... you resort to insults when you don't get your own way.... why the hell should I want to understand you?

Just asked him to put a couple of paras in for my (and your!) convenience!
As I said, love of the English rarely begins with love of the language in these threads.

My convenience lies with me and not you.... I'll decide things myself thank you. You still tried to belittle someone you thought was beneath you because you thought it would show how superior and clever you are.

Like Star Sparkle says cloud cuckoo land you cant even identify sarcasm
Can I add another question to the ones you refuse to answer...how old are you?

Oh sarcasm is easy to identify, as are posters who resort to insults when they are losing arguments.

Once again, tell us why you believe the country is going to the dogs, you seem to tell us often enough, but fail to explain how it is directly affecting others and yourself.

You accuse me of hatred I gather that means racism,

Sorry - I feel almost bad for accusing you!:hihi: I just think a lot of the things you post, (your views on Empire for example) are badly out of touch with mainstream public thought. It just makes it harder for us to have discourse on immigration when it is so heavily associated with the far right (and well known as the only topic they are interested in)!

you seem to be confusing racism with patriotism,I do not hate anybody be they black,white yellow or sky blue pink,

This is good to hear, as hating people based on their origin is pretty weird I'm sure you'll agree!

I just happen to believe that England is the greatest country in the world,

Me too! I just don't think the best things about us are in the past! Some of our History is downright shameful and by revelling in the nasty bits, you drag yourself down! a lot of our History is awe inspiring and worth shouting about. The empire is not so much....

I truly believe that anybody who abandons their country to take up residence in another country voluntarily is unpatriotic.

Perhaps some people just fancy more sun? Does it really make them "unpatriotic"? You are sounding frighteningly like an American! I could never envision leaving myself, I love the rain and cold too much! + a million other things which usually make me smile when returning from a holiday!

As I said earlier if being patriotic and loving my country equates to racism..so be it

It doesn't!! I think most decent British people want immigration control but the subject has been tainted by over zealous "patriotism" from certain sections of the political spectrum. It's very much like the association the Union Jack used to have in the 1970's and 1980's. My dad used to have one on his car (a little sparkly one I bought from a Little Chef and stuck on!).

A man at his work thought he was a National Front member! It came off that night. Not because my dad hates the flag or the country but because he didn't want the association with the far right!

(I stuck a new one on his car in about 1996 at the height of Britpop!) I might stick another on next time I see him!

In the mean time - try to be less extreme sounding!:) Immigration as a political topic needs to be reclaimed from the far right in the same way the flag was.

Bananagirl and others, blaming people for being poor or on benefits in a country with virtually no social mobility, with a very poor education system biased towards the middle class is not very clever, in fact its mean, vindictive and shows a complete ignorance of working class history. No mention of de-industrialisation which broke community bonds, dispersal to soulless council estates where family units including Gran were broken up, etc, where factories indeed industries closed over night.

I have noticed this US style 'blame the victims' culture becoming increasingly common in the Uk when it comes to people on benefits, etc. Believe it or not, we already have one of the most punitive welfare systems in Northern Europe. I wonder have you ever read or heard of The Ragged Trousered Philanthropist, maybe you should take a look. Oh, and for the rest of the liberals on here who seem to like contrasting 'hard working migrants', etc, with lazy indigenous 'chavs, estate scum, dolies' etc, etc, you need to be more circumspect, it won't take much for the far right to start appearing as the champion of the poor if you and seemingly much of the country including new migrants go on like that,

tbh, your compassions seem a bit one sided

Oh sarcasm is easy to identify, as are posters who resort to insults when they are losing arguments.

Once again, tell us why you believe the country is going to the dogs, you seem to tell us often enough, but fail to explain how it is directly affecting others and yourself.
I dont lose arguments Im too head strong and I let the facts speak for themselves
look around you if you were around in the 60's 70's you will realise how trite that question is,check your paypacket and then check your outgoings, petrol prices for one,take a walk into Sheffield one night and then cast your mind back when it was a bustling thriving city that was relatively safe to walk around on your own,when you could walk through the middle of a crowd and feel no danger,when you had safe access to all areas of the city irrespective of the time of day or night..how many are now no go areas after dark.Remenber the times when you could leave your kids out on the street without being afraid of anything happening to them,go down templeborough and observe the deserted roads which used to be full of steelworkers,sold out because theres more profit in importing it,ditto with the mining communites..need I go on?

Oh sarcasm is easy to identify, as are posters who resort to insults when they are losing arguments.

Once again, tell us why you believe the country is going to the dogs, you seem to tell us often enough, but fail to explain how it is directly affecting others and yourself.

It's unusual for me to agree with Rotherhamer, but I too believe the country is going to the dogs. For evidence, just take a look at the current economic news. That will affect all of us; the degree to which it's due to immigration seems to be still open to debate, with various organisations claiming a small positive benefit to the economy, neither advantage or disadvantage, or a loss to the UK economy.

An interesting observation made by an economist on the news the other day was that the presence of a large immigrant workforce in the UK from Eastern Europe might make what happens next in this recession / depression / correction difficult to predict.

The general jist of what was being said (and confirmed in some interviews with Eastern Europeans working here) was that as the UK economy slipped many immigrant workers would go home as they wouldn't be making enough money here to make it worthwhile them staying. So, we'd potentially have the situation of a large nummber of jobs at the low pay end of the market coming available in a recession, which is certainly not soemthing that's been experienced in previous recessions.

No! most people want a debate about immigration but its silly little people like you who go around screaming "racist" at everyone in your immature manner that are precisely the same kind of people that stamp around and try to stifle the very debate you presume to encourage..... you are a very unconvincing teller of the truth.

I think you might be getting slightly introspective there.

You argue human rights as though you think it means the right to live....
I guess I was wrong? :o


So even in a previous post where you slammed a poster for presuming to ask a persons ethnicity..... you would of course do so if you were unsure but it does remove some of the fun though?
I don't see a problem in asking what a persons ethnicity is. If however you are doing it in order to devalue their argument, then it does seem a little "last straw" ! As you did with me - remember?? You apologised though and I accepted. ;)


Am I not a created character? What! aren't you?
Well you've put doubts in my mind now...but...I still think you're real...? Perhaps you're just a rabid alter ego of one of the posters who spend all day on here! If I was to invent a character, you can bet I'd be a Doctor or a QC, or hell, even a Spy! We are striking over pay very soon you know! Not a good time to pretend to be a teacher! I trust you support the NUT in our strike action!!?

No! most people want a debate about immigration but its silly little people like you who go around screaming "racist" at everyone in your immature manner that are precisely the same kind of people that stamp around and try to stifle the very debate you presume to encourage.....

Yes! Most people want a debate on immigration which will lead to tighter control. There are numerous reasons for this, financial, social, issues of immigration without integration etc. It would be nice if these were recognised as genuine reasons from genuine people. However thanks to nasty little men like you - It's assumed that all these normal fairminded people are just as right wing and as bigoted as you are!

Who do and what?....

You asked the following:

So racists have the platform on this issue?

I replied:

You know they do! It's their favorite (only) topic and always has been!
(just look at where this thread has ended up)

Make any sense now you've read it twice?
The point is, while this should be a topic enjoyed by all forum members, (statistics show that most are interested) it is sadly the domain of the usual suspects:roll: You can rant and rave but on your own it's never going to make a difference! You need popular acceptance!

you clearly have extremist thoughts of your own....

Eh? Really? I'm an extremist and I didn't even know it! You should be supporting me! They do say the far right is hopelessley infiltrated and divided though.....

there are other forms of opinion on this as well and some very different ones but who are you to tell people their place?.... you resort to insults when you don't get your own way.... why the hell should I want to understand you?

People are entitled to their views - Let one hundred flowers bloom - let one hundred schools of thought contend!

I'm telling nobody their place. Have I insulted you any more than you have insulted me? Sorry! thought it was water off a rat's back! You cry like a year 7 girl!:cry: Do you hear me complaining?

BTW, it is useful to have an understanding of all views I've found!

I have to go to bed now:( See You!

The trouble is most of the populace refuse to see what is happening ,they are afraid,to quote Jack Nicholson.."You want the truth,you couldnt handle the truth" so they read the doctored newspapers ,watch the diluted TV news and go with the flow,afraid to speak out because they couldnt handle the attention,ignoring what is actually happening around them.
All children are brainwashed from day one at school to "toe the line"the first thing they are taught is to say yes sir no sir three bags full sir... systematic brainwashing...respect the system no matter what it tells you to do.Occasionally some realise whats happening and start to think for themselves,they are then labelled as outsiders and rebels and generally non conformists and are then ostracised as enemies of the state and are subject to the hatred of the states propaganda which the brainwashed sheep believe whole heartedly

The general jist of what was being said (and confirmed in some interviews with Eastern Europeans working here) was that as the UK economy slipped many immigrant workers would go home as they wouldn't be making enough money here to make it worthwhile them staying. So, we'd potentially have the situation of a large nummber of jobs at the low pay end of the market coming available in a recession, which is certainly not soemthing that's been experienced in previous recessions.

I would think it would dampen the effect of any recession. Afterall, a common theme of recession is job losses.

We shall have to wait to see the impact of the lending crisis, but you might have identified a little protection that we have against it.

One question and then I may answer the rest of the post..Why did you omit the words preceding...send them back..? in your quote I would be really interested to know why you have quoted out of context

Not lucky quote, but because in the words preceding 'send them back...' you are basically repeating yourself. You probably thought that I'm trying to say that you are trying to "send them back" :)
Anyway. You know, I find it sick when there is no way to move that muslim preacher friend of Bin Laden and one million of illegal sneakers out of the country. I also find it strange when you get worried about, say, china towns that much. Yes, they don't integrate, and you can't just "send them back" because of it. Also, they will probably never integrate, so this problem will ever remain.

The trouble is most of the populace refuse to see what is happening ,they are afraid,to quote Jack Nicholson.."You want the truth,you couldnt handle the truth" so they read the doctored newspapers ,watch the diluted TV news and go with the flow,afraid to speak out because they couldnt handle the attention,ignoring what is actually happening around them.
All children are brainwashed from day one at school to "toe the line"the first thing they are taught is to say yes sir no sir three bags full sir... systematic brainwashing...respect the system no matter what it tells you to do.Occasionally some realise whats happening and start to think for themselves,they are then labelled as outsiders and rebels and generally non conformists and are then ostracised as enemies of the state and are subject to the hatred of the states propaganda which the brainwashed sheep believe whole heartedly


This is getting scary - I'm agreeing with your posts! :o

StarSparkle

I think you might be getting slightly introspective there.

I titter to think that you copied and pasted my own quote back to me.

I guess I was wrong? :o

I guess you were wrong to cut my sentence off in your pasted reply at a certain point to make your remark somehow seem clever in the extreme. You see, people will already have read that I said "You argue human rights as though you think it means the right to live.... it is indeed so but human rights go far beyond this."

And not simpy:

You argue human rights as though you think it means the right to live.... as you put it. You had no argument or any other way out of looking stupid so you chose to insult once again.... call me a bully this time, the word racist is so old hat you know.

I don't see a problem in asking what a persons ethnicity is. If however you are doing it in order to devalue their argument, then it does seem a little "last straw" ! As you did with me - remember?? You apologised though and I accepted. ;)

Peeing on your shoes would be like an apology to you.... somewhere in your misted up mind you would latch onto the fact that I did it because I care about you and want to see you have clean shoes.

You don't see a problem with asking someones ethnicity then? Remember posting this not so far back?

Why should you care?

This reminds me of the time I was accused of being a Muslim! Then an Asian!! (as though being either would devalue my argument!)

Why not judge the poster on his views and not his ethnic origin, religion or skin colour? Why should posters be compelled to prove their racial origin or "purity" to you?

One benefit of internet based discussion is that posters' race / gender / sexual orientation / social subculture is not immediately obvious, enabling you to judge people purely on their opinions, values and views.

How do you accomodate two different points of view on a subject, yet choose which point of view suits you at one given time?

Well you've put doubts in my mind now...but...I still think you're real...? Perhaps you're just a rabid alter ego of one of the posters who spend all day on here! If I was to invent a character, you can bet I'd be a Doctor or a QC, or hell, even a Spy! We are striking over pay very soon you know! Not a good time to pretend to be a teacher! I trust you support the NUT in our strike action!!?

I have no doubt in my mind that you are unreal.... in sense anyway. As for all day on here.... I think you need to take note of the times I post before you pass judgement on that one M'lady.... I never support a strike btw.



Yes! Most people want a debate on immigration which will lead to tighter control. There are numerous reasons for this, financial, social, issues of immigration without integration etc. It would be nice if these were recognised as genuine reasons from genuine people. However thanks to nasty little men like you - It's assumed that all these normal fairminded people are just as right wing and as bigoted as you are!

You are throwing your toys out of the pram once again and resorting to name calling.... don't cite the outer social structure for every problem that exists outside of your ivory tower.... this is real life, a concept you are or will be about to grasp when you have to start acting like a responsible adult and take responsibility for your actions and your words. Nasty little men like me have a habit of protecting nasty little girls like you should we ever see you in trouble.


Make any sense now you've read it twice?
The point is, while this should be a topic enjoyed by all forum members, (statistics show that most are interested) it is sadly the domain of the usual suspects:roll: You can rant and rave but on your own it's never going to make a difference! You need popular acceptance!

You obviously feel that you could mediate in a debate?

Eh? Really? I'm an extremist and I didn't even know it! You should be supporting me! They do say the far right is hopelessley infiltrated and divided though.....

I wouldn't know. :roll:

People are entitled to their views - Let one hundred flowers bloom - let one hundred schools of thought contend!

I'm telling nobody their place. Have I insulted you any more than you have insulted me? Sorry! thought it was water off a rat's back! You cry like a year 7 girl!:cry: Do you hear me complaining?

BTW, it is useful to have an understanding of all views I've found!

I have to go to bed now:( See You!

This is getting scary - I'm agreeing with your posts! :o

StarSparkle
I am only telling the truth,its there for all to see but they refuse to see it,there are plenty others that see it but refuse to believe it because it goes against anything they have ever been taught and instead of having the guts to to rebel against the lies that see in the media etc would sooner bury the truth and go with the flow.
There are still a majority of people out there that believe that the police have never handed out instant justice to people,still believe that Princess Diana was an innocent pure woman who wouldnt indulge in multiple affairs,still believe that we invaded Iraq,not for the oil,but to help the poor oppressed people,who are now repaying us by slaughtering their saviours,still believe that Kate Mcann is the victim of her situationstill believe that Ronald Biggs is the devil reincarnate etc etc etc ...why?...because the establishment say so ....and they dont tell lies!!

There are still a majority of people out there........still believe that Princess Diana was an innocent pure woman who wouldnt indulge in multiple affairs

Now you've done it, thats like insulting god.

Bananagirl,

You are a teacher and you want solidarity for the strike on the 24th April, yet you have just attacked millions of people on benefits, many in very difficult situations indeed, particularly disabled people. There used to be a trade union slogan, 'an injury to one is an injury to all', perhaps you could learn to practice it

Now you've done it, thats like insulting god.
Is god a woman?..blimey no wonder the world is in a mess:D:D

I guess you were wrong to cut my sentence off in your pasted reply at a certain point to make your remark somehow seem clever in the extreme.

Anyone who's interested will have read your post #261 - It still seems like a weird thing to say! Human rights include the right to life for all, not some at the expense of others, (no matter what their beliefs)!

I don't see a problem in asking what a persons ethnicity is. If however you are doing it in order to devalue their argument, then it does seem a little "last straw" ! As you did with me - remember?? You apologised though and I accepted. ;)

Peeing on your shoes would be like an apology to you.... somewhere in your misted up mind you would latch onto the fact that I did it because I care about you and want to see you have clean shoes.

Here's your apology:

I apologise to you for thinking you had a hidden agenda.... I recognise that you are a true white Briton and you were born here from parents of a British heritage.... I don't think you being an ethnic would have somehow debunked my arguments....

It SOUNDED pretty genuine: (albeit like something out of a BNP genealogy session) I take it you are not genuine and your apology and word mean nothing....I'm of the view that "a man's word is his bond". What a shame the army did not teach you any integrity. I'm now sure you didn't do it because you cared - just because you looked silly!

You don't see a problem with asking someones ethnicity then?

As stated in my quote above, I don't see what's wrong in asking someone's ethnic origin out of interest. However, if you are asking (or suggesting as you did to me) out of some misguided belief or wish that it will somehow devalue a persons viewpoint - Then i think it's an odd thing to do. I think most people can understand and make this distinction!

I have no doubt in my mind that you are unreal.... in sense anyway.
I'm unreal!? Cool!

I never support a strike btw.
Now THAT really is disgusting. How do you suppose workers are to ensure their rights? By relying on kind hearted capitalists? Or maybe fascists?

You are throwing your toys out of the pram once again and resorting to name calling....
Ha! You really have a problem with name calling!! Bullied at school much?!! What names have I called you? Quote Me! Please!!
Lets see what you've called me:

silly little people like you
immature
sheer waffle
why the hell should I want to understand you?
looking stupid
misted up mind
preacher

I've not once complained about any of it! Belt up Rat! You're not at school now! Can't you take a bit of back chat from a little Banana Girl!? :banana:

this is real life, a concept you are or will be about to grasp when you have to start acting like a responsible adult and take responsibility for your actions and your words.

I'm a Parent a homeowner and a Teacher, I know a thing or two about responsibility. I don't claim to be super responsible, but I'm not exactly a 16 year old school leaver! Perhaps when you start a family you will be more concerned about a variety of issues, rather than just a single one....

Nasty little men like me have a habit of protecting nasty little girls like you should we ever see you in trouble.

I thank you in advance! :)

I would rather a complainer than a preacher anyday

Makes no sense to me? I'd rather someone with a stiff upper lip anyway ;) Damn complainers - something so un-British about them!

Bananagirl and others, blaming people for being poor or on benefits in a country with virtually no social mobility, with a very poor education system biased towards the middle class is not very clever, in fact its mean, vindictive and shows a complete ignorance of working class history.

I've never blamed the poor for being poor! Despite what you say above about social mobility, We are a 1st world country. Education is FREE. Healthcare is FREE. Social security is FREE. Jobs exist in almost every sector.

We do however suffer from some peope who have been brought up with a severe lack of ambition, desire and work ethic. This is I agree due to the issues you mention next:

de-industrialisation which broke community bonds, dispersal to soulless council estates where family units including Gran were broken up, etc, where factories indeed industries closed over night.

Sorry I didn't mention those causes myself but I was not writing an essay!

I would personally advocate fixing the problems we have, by using the money we obviously have to develop programs that could instill some work ethic and desire back into people's lives. School leaving age extended to 18 - more vocational courses available, affordable homes etc. I don't mind paying more tax in order to do this!

What I am not happy to do, is maintain the status quo - with another generation born into families who have not worked for the last 3 generations! Who are quite happy to live entirely off the state. Say what you like but this is a problem which will only grow if not addressed.

I dont lose arguments Im too head strong and I let the facts speak for themselves
look around you if you were around in the 60's 70's you will realise how trite that question is,check your paypacket and then check your outgoings, petrol prices for one,take a walk into Sheffield one night and then cast your mind back when it was a bustling thriving city that was relatively safe to walk around on your own,when you could walk through the middle of a crowd and feel no danger,when you had safe access to all areas of the city irrespective of the time of day or night..how many are now no go areas after dark.Remenber the times when you could leave your kids out on the street without being afraid of anything happening to them,go down templeborough and observe the deserted roads which used to be full of steelworkers,sold out because theres more profit in importing it,ditto with the mining communites..need I go on?

Yes, you do need to go on; because that’s the biggest load of twaddle, I’ve heard from you.

Let’s go back to your original point, “This country is going to the dogs”

Steel and mining workers went during the eighties and nineties, surely you aren’t blaming this government for that?

It’s unfair to directly compare myself as obviously personal financial circumstances change for the better as you get older, I can however compare the thought of losing my job today with actually losing it in the eighties, today I’d be reasonably confident of getting a reasonably well paid job, in the eighties it was desperate as around 3 million people were unemployed then, and I resorted to picking fruit out in Nottinghamshire for 50 pence an hour. Even in your mind, you cannot seriously believe things are worse now than they were then.

Kids in the street: I was badly beaten up on three separate occasions when I was a nipper, my crime was to stray into the wrong estate.

From being an adult I was beaten up once during the early eighties in the middle of town, I’ve lived in the same house for nearly twenty years, we were burgled once in the early nineties, had 2 cars and a motor-home stolen in the early nineties and had the garden shed broken into in the early nineties. Thankfully nothing has happened since then, from a personal perspective I have not been a victim of crime for a while, which seems to support what the Police and BCS are saying when reporting that crime is reducing.

Once again, can you explain to me how this government has let you down, that leads you to believe we are going to the dogs, it seems tom me from what you’ve given us so far, that we’d already gone under the Tories and this lot have had the task of pulling it back.

For the record I don’t think this government is perfect, in my humble opinion both wars were wrong and they should be doing more to get property prices back in line with what people can afford.

Yes, you do need to go on; because that’s the biggest load of twaddle, I’ve heard from you.

Let’s go back to your original point, “This country is going to the dogs”

Steel and mining workers went during the eighties and nineties, surely you aren’t blaming this government for that?

It’s unfair to directly compare myself as obviously personal financial circumstances change for the better as you get older, I can however compare the thought of losing my job today with actually losing it in the eighties, today I’d be reasonably confident of getting a reasonably well paid job, in the eighties it was desperate as around 3 million people were unemployed then, and I resorted to picking fruit out in Nottinghamshire for 50 pence an hour. Even in your mind, you cannot seriously believe things are worse now than they were then.

Kids in the street: I was badly beaten up on three separate occasions when I was a nipper, my crime was to stray into the wrong estate.

From being an adult I was beaten up once during the early eighties in the middle of town, I’ve lived in the same house for nearly twenty years, we were burgled once in the early nineties, had 2 cars and a motor-home stolen in the early nineties and had the garden shed broken into in the early nineties. Thankfully nothing has happened since then, from a personal perspective I have not been a victim of crime for a while, which seems to support what the Police and BCS are saying when reporting that crime is reducing.

Once again, can you explain to me how this government has let you down, that leads you to believe we are going to the dogs, it seems tom me from what you’ve given us so far, that we’d already gone under the Tories and this lot have had the task of pulling it back.

For the record I don’t think this government is perfect, in my humble opinion both wars were wrong and they should be doing more to get property prices back in line with what people can afford.
You are unreal I did not mention a time scale,the country is and has been getting worse over the last thirty years,if you cant see that then either your very blind,stupid or ignorant or maybe a combination,ok you got beat up as a nipper,poor sod ..only once try being a kid now you dont just get beat up you gets stabbed or shot.. you got a kicking in the nineties..thats twice..gasp..horror..you have led a rough life ..maybe you dont go out after dark nowadays so you dont get picked on or is it possible you avoid the rough areas seeing as you have had two beatings and spend all your time trawling the net for statistics..grow up and look around you,look out of your window now how many kids are playing on the street ..answer none or very fiew because their parents wont let them out because of the danger of roving perverts etc.How many pubs and clubs have gone west in the last 10/15 years because of rising prices and the collapse of neighbourhood communities?
I dont know your age but it seems you dont remember the carefree days of the 60's and 70's if thats the case I feel sorry for you because you must have been brought up when it all started to go to cock and you along with others have gone along with the flow not realising what is happening.
I wont be around in 30 years time or ,if I am I will be too old to care but for the sake of the children that are coming into the world now I sincerly hope their are people different to you,People who can see the mess out there and do something about it
Iv had my youth and completely enjoyed it..the futures yours and your ilk..believe me your quite welcome to it..I dont want it
Theres a growing belief that we will have a ethnic prime minister in the not to distant future..will the last Englishman to leave when that happens please turn out the lights

You are unreal I did not mention a time scale,the country is and has been getting worse over the last thirty years,if you cant see that then either your very blind,stupid or ignorant or maybe a combination,ok you got beat up as a nipper,poor sod ..only once try being a kid now you dont just get beat up you gets stabbed or shot.. you got a kicking in the nineties..thats twice..gasp..horror..you have led a rough life ..maybe you dont go out after dark nowadays so you dont get picked on or is it possible you avoid the rough areas seeing as you have had two beatings and spend all your time trawling the net for statistics..grow up and look around you,look out of your window now how many kids are playing on the street ..answer none or very fiew because their parents wont let them out because of the danger of roving perverts etc.How many pubs and clubs have gone west in the last 10/15 years because of rising prices and the collapse of neighbourhood communities?
I dont know your age but it seems you dont remember the carefree days of the 60's and 70's if thats the case I feel sorry for you because you must have been brought up when it all started to go to cock and you along with others have gone along with the flow not realising what is happening.
I wont be around in 30 years time or ,if I am I will be too old to care but for the sake of the children that are coming into the world now I sincerly hope their are people different to you,People who can see the mess out there and do something about it
Iv had my youth and completely enjoyed it..the futures yours and your ilk..believe me your quite welcome to it..I dont want it
Theres a growing belief that we will have a ethnic prime minister in the not to distant future..will the last Englishman to leave when that happens please turn out the lights

Are you trying to break the record for having the most attempts at failing to answer the question.

Now you've moved the debate from going to the dogs to getting worse over the last thirty years (acknowledgment that you recognise this isn't a recent problem caused by the high levels of Immigration), could you once again try and specify the areas that have got worse.

As you are obvioulsy having difficulty understanding the question I'll help you along, the following are all areas important to people, which have got worse over the last 30 years:


Potential to be a victim of crime
Length of time to wait for hospital operations
Risk of unemployment
Opportunties to travel around the world
More likely pensioners will live in poverty
More likely children will live in poverty
More opportunity for mothers to return to work through better childcare provisions
More likely for children from poorer families to get to university
More likely to get exploited by employers through no minimum wage
More risk of nuclear obliteration
More likely to be able to own your home


Now I've really made it simple, you've avoided the question previously, which areas are getting worse or going to the dogs as you put it.

I eagerly await your response!

Are you trying to break the record for having the most attempts at failing to answer the question.

Now you've moved the debate from going to the dogs to getting worse over the last thirty years (acknowledgment that you recognise this isn't a recent problem caused by the high levels of Immigration), could you once again try and specify the areas that have got worse.

As you are obvioulsy having difficulty understanding the question I'll help you along, the following are all areas important to people, which have got worse over the last 30 years:


Potential to be a victim of crime
Length of time to wait for hospital operations
Risk of unemployment
Opportunties to travel around the world
More likely pensioners will live in poverty
More likely children will live in poverty
More opportunity for mothers to return to work through better childcare provisions
More likely for children from poorer families to get to university
More likely to get exploited by employers through no minimum wage
More risk of nuclear obliteration
More likely to be able to own your home


Now I've really made it simple, you've avoided the question previously, which areas are getting worse or going to the dogs as you put it.

I eagerly await your response!
You are the one that keeps banging on Either you are a complete moron and obviously lack the ability to read plain English or your just that lonely that you need to attempt by any means to satisfy your need for company, in that respect being the considerate person I am I would be happy to educate you in the facts of the depreciation of British society,sadly if I attempted to do that on here I would probably last no more than two minutes so lets pick a nice quiet pub in a select quiet area ,somewhere where you can seee the real state of Britain and thrash it out.I know what about The Hen and Chicken or maybe The County in Rotherham or perhaps The Gower in Burngreave some quite down to earth public house like these Im sure you will soon come round to my way of thinking after a visit to some of these establishments and then lets pay a visit to the Northern General A&E on a saturday night or maybe take a quiet stroll down Darnall or Eastwood in Rotherham after dark in fact you mention universities,there are a number of pubs on West Street where you can go and see what todays university students are all about or maybe we can have a stroll round Oldcotes car boot on sunday morning you will probably like that its just like walking round a typical foreign souk you will be able to see the natives at play there and marvel at their attempts to grasp the intricacy of English manners and fairness.The choice is yours but be warned if you show the slightest sign of attitude you may find yourself getting an hat trick.
Its funny but my posts have been backed my posters such as Joep and Star sparkle who hold the esteem of most SF posters and even the son of the Mrs Mountbatten has publicly stated that he doesnt like England and yet you continue with your waffling.I think if you really take the time to ,not just glance at certain aspects of my posts but actually try to take in and understand something that does not rely entirely on everchanging pliable statistics you may just find that your questions have already been answered,albeit not directly but then again anybody with any sense who has learned that 2+2 =4 doesnt need to be shown the answer to every sum,they learn to learn...obviously that is out of your understanding and you need everything explaining..its whats called the ability to learn some have it..your the proof that sadly there are some that dont..Bye Bye

You are the one that keeps banging on Either you are a complete moron and obviously lack the ability to read plain English or your just that lonely that you need to attempt by any means to satisfy your need for company, in that respect being the considerate person I am I would be happy to educate you in the facts of the depreciation of British society,sadly if I attempted to do that on here I would probably last no more than two minutes so lets pick a nice quiet pub in a select quiet area ,somewhere where you can seee the real state of Britain and thrash it out.I know what about The Hen and Chicken or maybe The County in Rotherham or perhaps The Gower in Burngreave some quite down to earth public house like these Im sure you will soon come round to my way of thinking after a visit to some of these establishments and then lets pay a visit to the Northern General A&E on a saturday night or maybe take a quiet stroll down Darnall or Eastwood in Rotherham after dark in fact you mention universities,there are a number of pubs on West Street where you can go and see what todays university students are all about or maybe we can have a stroll round Oldcotes car boot on sunday morning you will probably like that its just like walking round a typical foreign souk you will be able to see the natives at play there and marvel at their attempts to grasp the intricacy of English manners and fairness.The choice is yours but be warned if you show the slightest sign of attitude you may find yourself getting an hat trick.
Its funny but my posts have been backed my posters such as Joep and Star sparkle who hold the esteem of most SF posters and even the son of the Mrs Mountbatten has publicly stated that he doesnt like England and yet you continue with your waffling.I think if you really take the time to ,not just glance at certain aspects of my posts but actually try to take in and understand something that does not rely entirely on everchanging pliable statistics you may just find that your questions have already been answered,albeit not directly but then again anybody with any sense who has learned that 2+2 =4 doesnt need to be shown the answer to every sum,they learn to learn...obviously that is out of your understanding and you need everything explaining..its whats called the ability to learn some have it..your the proof that sadly there are some that dont..Bye Bye

Well I think you've created a record for SF, 439 words and numerous posts and you still have failed to tell us what aspects of life in this country have gone to the dogs.

I think we all know the reason, you don't want to see people living in this country who have a different coloured face to you, I suspect it doesn't stop there and that you have objections to people from Eastern Europe coming and working here.

Apologies if this isn't the case, but until you actually come out and do tell us what your problems are, then I'm afraid we'll have to make assumptions. I gave you every opportunity to explain these (without the need for statistics) and I even gave you some key areas of life which are important to people.

To reciprocate your invitation to me why don't you try speaking to the Pensioners who are now claiming Pension Credit in the millions, or the mums that can now go back to work thanks to the child care provisions, or the millions of workers benefitting from the minimum wage and the Child TAx Credit, or the sick and disabled that are being treated far quicker than before, or the working class children that can now go to universities. There are good things in this country, unfortunately you cannot see them as you're far too concerned about other issues.

I bid you goodnight!

Anyone who's interested will have read your post #261 - It still seems like a weird thing to say! Human rights include the right to life for all, not some at the expense of others, (no matter what their beliefs)!





Here's your apology:



It SOUNDED pretty genuine: (albeit like something out of a BNP genealogy session) I take it you are not genuine and your apology and word mean nothing....I'm of the view that "a man's word is his bond". What a shame the army did not teach you any integrity. I'm now sure you didn't do it because you cared - just because you looked silly!

You just didn't read the irony in it. You thought it was a post of integrity because you wanted to believe so.... by taking a comment I made in a different thread under different circumstances and trying to impose it on here when it clearly had a different definition... then is bad taste in my eyes..

Where ever did I say "It still seems like a weird thing to say! Human rights include the right to life for all, not some at the expense of others, (no matter what their beliefs)!".... You are trying hard to discredit me but the fact is, I never said those words and still you try to pin something on me that never happened.... look a few posts back at the words I highlighted and stop trying to look smug when you are clearly in the wrong.

As stated in my quote above, I don't see what's wrong in asking someone's ethnic origin out of interest. However, if you are asking (or suggesting as you did to me) out of some misguided belief or wish that it will somehow devalue a persons viewpoint - Then i think it's an odd thing to do. I think most people can understand and make this distinction!


I'm unreal!? Cool!

I never suggested that to ask ones ethnicity was was a problem.... it was you that thought others should not ask it as you thought in your own mindset that the reason someone else apart from you would possibly want to know the answer would be to use it against them..... that's why you're unreal.... you project your own thoughts onto others.


[QUOTE=banangirl]Now THAT really is disgusting. How do you suppose workers are to ensure their rights? By relying on kind hearted capitalists? Or maybe fascists?

I would suggest that they start their own business like I did and then if they were still of the far left values that you hold then they could introduce a union into it.... if they want to become uncompetitive and finally go bust.

Ha! You really have a problem with name calling!! Bullied at school much?!! What names have I called you? Quote Me! Please!!
Lets see what you've called me:









I've not once complained about any of it! Belt up Rat! You're not at school now! Can't you take a bit of back chat from a little Banana Girl!? :banana:

As if I am going to trawl posts looking for your insults? I'm sure many on here will have had one from you at some time or another when you have disagreed with them.... like my partner for instance who you labelled as "dim" "not worth the bandwidth" "a yes person" "a complete waste of space" yet you did this and you can't deny it even though your fowl vitriol was removed.... it seems to be a common occurrence for you.... funny how my mild insults are never taken away innit? ;) You are just plain nasty!

I'm a Parent a homeowner and a Teacher, I know a thing or two about responsibility. I don't claim to be super responsible, but I'm not exactly a 16 year old school leaver! Perhaps when you start a family you will be more concerned about a variety of issues, rather than just a single one....

No wonder our schools are in such a state if you are the calibre of teacher they seek.

Where ever did I say "It still seems like a weird thing to say! Human rights include the right to life for all, not some at the expense of others, (no matter what their beliefs)!".... You are trying hard to discredit me but the fact is, I never said those words


Go back and read my post #279 again.

What I am saying is in plain text - What you have said is clearly in a quotation box. I fail to see how you have been vexed by this? Surely nobody else has?

You seem to be having major issues with quotes, understanding them and using them. Tidy up that last post a bit will you?

It is rather bizarre that the debate has become dominated by one person who wants to argue their point but refuses to give any reasons to back it up. And an exchange where one of the participants keeps complaining about the immigration debate being shut down by accusations of racism etc. whilst apparently doing all they can to stifle debate.

So back to the thread title.

The best recent evidence that immigration costs us is the recent House of Lords report and their claims that increased GDP does not amount to an economic benefit. Instead they prefer to look at increase in impact of immigration on income per head of the resident (ie, pre-immigration) population. There are numerous difficulties with this notion, not least that, as the committee concedes: “There has been no empirical research that has analysed the impact of immigration on the per capita income of the resident population of the UK”. This did not, nevertheless, prevent their lordships claiming: “The overall conclusion from existing evidence is that immigration has very small impacts on GDP per capita.” This is entirely unhelpful thinking. Only if immigrants, on average, earn considerably more than residents - an unlikely scenario - can the lords insist that the pre-immigration population has lost out. In the absence of that data, and they do not have it, the peers are making highly charged claims while essentially guessing the numbers.

So the House of Lords report in the words of the Indepedent is "Malicious, misguided, and badly misinformed"

Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article3663103.ece) Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-articles/leading-article-malicious-misguided-and-badly-misinformed-803498.html) Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/apr/02/immigration.immigrationpolicy) Guardian Immigration Facts and Figures (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/apr/01/immigrationpolicy.immigrationandpublicservices1)

It is rather bizarre that the debate has become dominated by one person who wants to argue their point but refuses to give any reasons to back it up.

It's quite amusing really, it reminds me of an old saying about Irish people "They don't know what they're fighting for, but they'll fight anybody for it"

an exchange where one of the participants keeps complaining about the immigration debate being shut down by accusations of racism etc. whilst apparently doing all they can to stifle debate.

I take it you agree with the rat that I'm stifiling debate? I really don't see how?

My assertion was a simple one. Immigration is an issue of interest to most people of voting age. Alongside tax / crime / social policy / foreign policy / social security and many other issues.

The far right have long made immigration "their issue".

Hence the need for the Tory campaign: "It's not racist to talk about immigration". Obviously public perception is that it is in some way racist. Or at the least an issue dominated by racists.

I followed this thread with great interest until it turned into overt bigotry - at which point it turned me off!

I simply think we should take the issue back from the far right and into the mainstream. The same way the Union Jack has been reclaimed from the far right. For all our benefit!

Well I think you've created a record for SF, 439 words and numerous posts and you still have failed to tell us what aspects of life in this country have gone to the dogs.

I think we all know the reason, you don't want to see people living in this country who have a different coloured face to you, I suspect it doesn't stop there and that you have objections to people from Eastern Europe coming and working here.

Apologies if this isn't the case, but until you actually come out and do tell us what your problems are, then I'm afraid we'll have to make assumptions. I gave you every opportunity to explain these (without the need for statistics) and I even gave you some key areas of life which are important to people.

To reciprocate your invitation to me why don't you try speaking to the Pensioners who are now claiming Pension Credit in the millions, or the mums that can now go back to work thanks to the child care provisions, or the millions of workers benefitting from the minimum wage and the Child TAx Credit, or the sick and disabled that are being treated far quicker than before, or the working class children that can now go to universities. There are good things in this country, unfortunately you cannot see them as you're far too concerned about other issues.

I bid you goodnight!
I am going to take one issue here and thats it you are a waste of time As I said in my previous post you just dont seem to read posts and comprehend what is actually written .I am on record that it is pointless sending immigrants back that are already settled here and for you to now resort to calling me colour prejudice is nothing short of an outright insult.thats my beef over I will now take the issue I mentioned after that due to your obvious attempt to cause racial dis harmony I will just ignore your stupid,ignorant idiotic posts.
Child tax credit ..what a joke ..if a man does an honest days work he should be entitled to a decent wage and not have to go cap in hand to have is wages subsidised,cannot even you with your limited intelligence see that you are being conned what you get with all the hand outs is what the jobs worth so a single person with no children is actually being payed less than he should be and the minimum wage! Im saying nothing about that I shouldnt need to £5 .35p per hour with todays cost of living its an insult and I think you will find that the biggest culprits in adhering to the minimum wage is the companies that make the obscene profits.I could go on about the massacre of the unions but I think that would be too deep for you especially to understand so I will just leave it at that,I wont put you on ignore rather I will sit and read your posts and have a chuckle at the crap you come out with,unlike you I know when Im beat,not by your arguments but by your inability to comprehend even the basic facts..you cant teach a dog new tricks or get sense out of an idiot...Lights on no one at home.bye bye
Come back Halibut all is forgiven

Ahh yes, "She" became quite active while you were on a ban! :roll:
On this thread (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=331547). Nothing on topic to add though, just some "me too" stuff. My posts are still there - all yours, sorry hers have been removed....

I was silly to argue - but I never know when to stop!

Actually you tell a blatant lie there where you say "My posts are still there," they are NOT! because your vitriolic remarks to my partner were removed along with about five other posts you made in the same vein.... now don't tell me you deny it and don't presume to think that others reading this thread didn't see your original comments.... I can prove this too as you ended up giving an apology if I remember correctly because you knew you were out of order..... She didn't respond to you because she is not one bit like you. She is a Lady.

If I thought you were a teacher around my children, I would hound the education authority until I put enough distance between you and them.... that you wouldn't be able to influence them in the slightest.

I take it you agree with the rat that I'm stifiling debate? I really don't see how?

My assertion was a simple one. Immigration is an issue of interest to most people of voting age. Alongside tax / crime / social policy / foreign policy / social security and many other issues.

The far right have long made immigration "their issue".

Hence the need for the Tory campaign: "It's not racist to talk about immigration". Obviously public perception is that it is in some way racist. Or at the least an issue dominated by racists.

I followed this thread with great interest until it turned into overt bigotry - at which point it turned me off!

I simply think we should take the issue back from the far right and into the mainstream. The same way the Union Jack has been reclaimed from the far right. For all our benefit!

So you my temple of light, you will reclaim the immigration issues back from the supposed far right or anyone really who has an issue with it and you will sort the problem out.... right?

And drop off your high horse... we all know what you do and that you have kids and what an upstanding pillar of the community you are but a sheet teacher so what would one in your position do to put the immigration issue right.... what indeed would be your policy?

I am going to take one issue here and thats it you are a waste of time As I said in my previous post you just dont seem to read posts and comprehend what is actually written .I am on record that it is pointless sending immigrants back that are already settled here and for you to now resort to calling me colour prejudice is nothing short of an outright insult.thats my beef over I will now take the issue I mentioned after that due to your obvious attempt to cause racial dis harmony I will just ignore your stupid,ignorant idiotic posts.
Child tax credit ..what a joke ..if a man does an honest days work he should be entitled to a decent wage and not have to go cap in hand to have is wages subsidised,cannot even you with your limited intelligence see that you are being conned what you get with all the hand outs is what the jobs worth so a single person with no children is actually being payed less than he should be and the minimum wage! Im saying nothing about that I shouldnt need to £5 .35p per hour with todays cost of living its an insult and I think you will find that the biggest culprits in adhering to the minimum wage is the companies that make the obscene profits.I could go on about the massacre of the unions but I think that would be too deep for you especially to understand so I will just leave it at that,I wont put you on ignore rather I will sit and read your posts and have a chuckle at the crap you come out with,unlike you I know when Im beat,not by your arguments but by your inability to comprehend even the basic facts..you cant teach a dog new tricks or get sense out of an idiot...Lights on no one at home.bye bye
Come back Halibut all is forgiven

The first sensible post you have put out tonight.

I’m pleased that we’re both of the same opinion in that we don’t have any issues with regards to people of a different colour, harmony at last.

Your argument on Tax Credits has a number of flaws in it though, firstly what do you do with the people that can only work a limited number of hours, if you withdraw Tax Credits won’t they then be in the position of having to go back on JSA again (incidentally as was the position 25 years ago). Surely it is better to have them working and contributing as opposed to doing nothing and getting paid for it.

I do agree with you in that the minimum wage should be higher, I’d much rather employers paid people a decent salary rather than having the taxpayer pick it up via the Tax Credits as above. I would take issue with you on the history of this though, things are far from perfect now but they were even worse before the minimum wage was introduced, unscrupulous employers paid people a pittance then, which acted as a huge disincentive for people to find work. Incidentally, it was this government that brought this in and not the previous one who actually opposed it.

A bit of civility in my response, I hope it’s reciprocated as we actually agreed on a number of points. I do feel a deafening silence on the following areas though:

• Crime reduction
• Length of time to wait for hospital operations
• Risk of unemployment
• Opportunities to travel around the world
• Pension Credit
• Childcare provisions
• University places for working class kids
• Nuclear obliteration
• Aspirations of owning your own home

what indeed would be your policy?

Send them all back! lol, just joking of course! You'd love that!!!

I'd start by tightening our social security system. Many people think we're a soft touch, we are. I'd extend the school leaving age to 18. More vocational courses, more trades taught. In an effort to increase ambition and opportunity.

I see the value in a points system like the Australians. Of course, we seem to need a lot of unskilled immigrants to do jobs that British people will not do.
Perhaps long term unemployed could be encouraged back to work somehow?
Suggessions please!

To aid integration of existing communities and reduce communalism - I would abolish all faith schools. Wearing overt religious symbols /dress would be banned. (a little cross or islam / buddhist symbol would be allowed but nothing more.

I would probably think up some more curbs on "religious freedom". as above - but only to encourage citizens to embrace what unites us! (Wearing full hijabs in public buildings for example could be banned). I feel children who are born here can often have their rights as British citizens restricted by religious parents who perhaps don't appreciate this country as much as they should. Or as much as their children do! i.e. The girls who are sent to be married in Pakistan etc.

Immigration is a positive thing when steered in the right direction I think!

I'd like the system fixed so people would actually feel kind generous and fair about the asylum we give to people who deserve it, instead of suspicious!


Umm... I'm stilll thinking of stuff... but.... what would you do?

I take it you agree with the rat that I'm stifiling debate? I really don't see how?

My assertion was a simple one. Immigration is an issue of interest to most people of voting age. Alongside tax / crime / social policy / foreign policy / social security and many other issues.

The far right have long made immigration "their issue".

Hence the need for the Tory campaign: "It's not racist to talk about immigration". Obviously public perception is that it is in some way racist. Or at the least an issue dominated by racists.

I followed this thread with great interest until it turned into overt bigotry - at which point it turned me off!

I simply think we should take the issue back from the far right and into the mainstream. The same way the Union Jack has been reclaimed from the far right. For all our benefit!

No you have the opposite end of the stick, to what I meant. Perhaps I was not clear enough. you have been defending yourself against someone who is stifling debate. Earlier on on this thread the same person gave up on arguing with me. For some reason his opinion as a business leader and his daily mail articles trump my broadsheet articles and nothing will change his mind. There really is no point in arguing with him. Ref (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=3342395&postcount=208)

No you have the opposite end of the stick, to what I meant. Perhaps I was not clear enough. you have been defending yourself against someone who is stifling debate. Earlier on on this thread the same person gave up on arguing with me. For some reason his opinion as a business leader and his daily mail articles trump my broadsheet articles and nothing will change his mind. There really is no point in arguing with him. Ref (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=3342395&postcount=208)

Of course there isn't.... he is so below you he knows nothing compared to you, you go off topic and keep quoting obscure sources to back up your arguments.... its easy to lose interest in you..... I read your comment the right way the first time.... not all of us get confused so easily.

It did come up :D



Never had a ban ;)

I don't dispute I argued with your alter ego. I did it! Guilty as charged! I also had the good grace to apologise! So what's your point? The posts I made which were not argumentative remain. None of your "other selfs" posts remain as they were all argumentative and not on topic or worth reading!

I live in hope that at least one poster who saw the thread at the time will back me up in saying you are an outright liar.... my partner didn't warrant having her posts removed, not by a long mile compared to yours.

You are showing me your true colours.... that's all I need to see really.

I actually liked some of your ideas on what you would do to control immigration.... thing is, I don't think your heart is really in it.

No you have the opposite end of the stick, to what I meant. Perhaps I was not clear enough. you have been defending yourself against someone who is stifling debate. Earlier on on this thread the same person gave up on arguing with me. For some reason his opinion as a business leader and his daily mail articles trump my broadsheet articles and nothing will change his mind. There really is no point in arguing with him. Ref (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=3342395&postcount=208)


Thankyou for the clarification! Sorry I misunderstood! :blush:
Yes it can be a little pointless arguing with someone who has a closed mind! Personally I love learning and having my views enhanced and developed through discussion! Life long learning and all that!

I have not changed my views and no matter how many obscure left/liberal links you add to your post's are not going to make me think any different than I do.

Ahh, yes - could well be a brick wall here .....

I see on Question time - Harriet Harmann and Tony Parsons have just agreed with me! Old Enoch's rivers of blood speech served only to tar the debate with a racist brush! Which as a concequence has made the subject taboo! The Maj of the panel agree now!:)

I'd start by tightening our social security system. Many people think we're a soft touch, we are. I'd extend the school leaving age to 18. More vocational courses, more trades taught. In an effort to increase ambition and opportunity.

I see the value in a points system like the Australians. Of course, we seem to need a lot of unskilled immigrants to do jobs that British people will not do.
Perhaps long term unemployed could be encouraged back to work somehow?
Suggessions please!

The current Govt initiative to deal with the problem of long term unemployment are employer partnerships (http://www.dwp.gov.uk/mediacentre/pressreleases/2007/jul/emp039-180707.asp).

We have a points system like the Australians with Visa applications and they are being toughened up. I have real concerns though that the restrictions being put on immigration are going too far. We already have desperate shortages of people working in care homes, in midwifery, locums and in construction. See the post that the rat disregarded for some references.


To aid integration of existing communities and reduce communalism - I would abolish all faith schools. Wearing overt religious symbols /dress would be banned. (a little cross or islam / buddhist symbol would be allowed but nothing more.

I would probably think up some more curbs on "religious freedom". as above - but only to encourage citizens to embrace what unites us! (Wearing full hijabs in public buildings for example could be banned). I feel children who are born here can often have their rights as British citizens restricted by religious parents who perhaps don't appreciate this country as much as they should. Or as much as their children do! i.e. The girls who are sent to be married in Pakistan etc.

I would ban faith schools and academies and anything else PFI/PPP funded.

I disagree on restrictions to clothing, unless it is a Health and Safety matter. I think the state intrudes on our personal freedoms too much and wouldn't want a precedent set.


Immigration is a positive thing when steered in the right direction I think!

I'd like the system fixed so people would actually feel kind generous and fair about the asylum we give to people who deserve it, instead of suspicious!


Umm... I'm stilll thinking of stuff... but.... what would you do?

Immigration is mostly a positive thing anyay. Yes there are negatives, but increased GDP has benefitted everyone.