After our very successful recent TKD grading, we are pleased to announce that we are again opening our doors to new students. Male, female from 5 years old and upwards. As an internationally recognised Black Belt Academy, we are here to give you professional instruction in non political Freestyle Taekwondo. For all new starters, we are offering 'ONE WEEK FREE TRAINING!' Then after that we will give you your membership, insurance and your first TKD uniform for free! No catch! This saves you around £200.00 from the first time you walk through the doors.
Ladies kickbox workout and Korean Kickboxing sessions avaliable six days a week too! A new you is just acall away!

what organiseation is this with ?

what organiseation is this with ?

We are affiliated with 'British Taekwondo and Martial Arts Union' and also a part of 'EFC International Black Belt Academies'.

can i ask howe much 'membership' alone is? i know the rough cost of insurance and a uniform and they arnt close to £200..

surely to get insurance and uniform you have to pay upfront for a number of lessons? is this right? if so, how many lessons and how much will that be please

Depending on which package you decide to take up depends on how much you can save. The maximum you can save is £200.00 if you take the platinum package. The least you can save is £65.00. Still great value for money to train at a professional aademy.

We are affiliated with 'British Taekwondo and Martial Arts Union' and also a part of 'EFC International Black Belt Academies'.

I have heard of the British Taekwondo Union but What is EFC ?

Hi Mastertkd, EFC i believe are a funding company, i presume clubs that are with EFC would be direct debit. From what i have read about EFC they are a marketing firm with offices in the USA Canada the UK Ireland, Australia and New Zealand, the office in America is on Chevy Chase Drive i think that says it all. Hope that helps

Hi Mastertkd, EFC i believe are a funding company, i presume clubs that are with EFC would be direct debit. From what i have read about EFC they are a marketing firm with offices in the USA Canada the UK Ireland, Australia and New Zealand, the office in America is on Chevy Chase Drive i think that says it all. Hope that helps

thank you for the reply. I have just looked them up on Google and they appear to be a billing and contract company.

If you go to Pilsung (Hillsborough Leisure Centre, Concord Leisure Centre, Ponds Forge, 393 Club) you don't pay anything upfront. You just pay £4 each time you train.

You need insurance once you've decided you want to continue (about £30 for the year) and you can buy a suit from wherever you like, though the cheapest good-quality ones I've found were about £25-£30 from the instructor himself who buys them in bulk.

There's no yearly fee, no direct debits and no obligation to train in order to 'make up' what you're spending monthly or yearly.

I've been training there for years. I found it by chance and I'm VERY glad I did. Because otherwise I think I might have been severely ripped off by someone else.

Depending on which package you decide to take up depends on how much you can save. The maximum you can save is £200.00 if you take the platinum package. The least you can save is £65.00. Still great value for money to train at a professional aademy.

How much are your package plans ?

[QUOTE=Master_J;3266819] For all new starters, we are offering 'ONE WEEK FREE TRAINING!' Then after that we will give you your membership, insurance and your first TKD uniform for free! No catch! This saves you around £200.00 from the first time you walk through the doors.
QUOTE]

£200.00 for membership, insurance, uniform and one weeks training ?

This sounds like one of the martial arts schools who've adopted similar principles to commercial gyms where clients are pushed into paying upfront for future sessions by being offered discounts.

"The maximum you can save is £200.00 if you take the platinum package. "

The phrase 'platinum package' sets alarm bells ringing for me :)

There's plenty of martial arts groups out there who'll charge a fair and reasonable rate for one-off sessions (around £2.50 -£5.00 per session) and there's no need for anyone to be attending classes which put pressure on you to pay in advance for blocks of future sessions.

As none of the questions above have been answerd then i can only assume that onewheeldave is correct !

As none of the questions above have been answerd then i can only assume that onewheeldave is correct !

Wow!! After a great Easter break I can't believe what a reaction there has been. Thanks.
This is a great forum for all martial artists, and one that provokes so many different opinions. Come down and see exactly what you get when you train here. I will explain all then. Until then, don't judge any one as you have to get to know them.
I run a full time academy from 9.30am, it's my full time occupation, and some people require different training syllabus, so obviously there is going to be different prices!! ( duh!)
Every professional academy has different price structures. Of course they do!
Pay as you go worked for me when I first started out. You have to move on from that when you run a full time academy.
Try and buy a car and pay for it every mile you use it. See the staff laugh at you.
Pay as you go does work but only on a small scale school system. I don't knock it but it doesn't work for me now.
These schools that work on a 'non profit' basis are not telling the whole truth I think. What happens when there are enough students to pay for the rent of the school/church hall? Does the instructors share the rest of the money to the students that are left there? How do they buy kick pads etc? From the money that the students pay..hence from the 'profit' the club has made.
I have been there for 12 years trying to make ends meet. It's hard and does not reward fully the hard work that actually goes into running your own school. There is so much in the back ground that the average student does not see or realise. You need to be able to pay the rent etc. and be able to provide a service that the student 'has' paid for and the future students are going to pay for. Its called running a business! No one forces any student to pay monthly if they don't want to. I fully explain that we pay monthly here for certain sessions and in block booking for other sessions.
Nothing hidden here. Commitment and dedication is the key to a great martial art system. We have it here.
(phew that took some time....just checking for RSI now!!)

The thing to do then, I'd suggest, is simply post your range of prices for both monthly blocks and for single sessions- then people can decide if they want to give the training a go.

I think people do understand that there are background costs and that the instructors have to make a living, but, given that the prices are fair and realistic, there's no reason not to post what they are.

Especially since there have been threads on this board concerning at least two martial arts organisations that are, without doubt, scam operations, both of which use the tactic of insisting that students book blocks of lessons in advance.

By posting your range of prices, you distance yourself from those kind of organisations.

Personally, I'd also suggest you cease to use terms like 'platinum package'- it sounds like really dodgy marketing terminology. I think a lot of people interested in martial arts training are going to be immediately put off by terminology like that, cos they strongly associate martial arts with integrity and honesty, not marketing ploys.

The thing to do then, I'd suggest, is simply post your range of prices for both monthly blocks and for single sessions- then people can decide if they want to give the training a go.

I think people do understand that there are background costs and that the instructors have to make a living, but, given that the prices are fair and realistic, there's no reason not to post what they are.

Especially since there have been threads on this board concerning at least two martial arts organisations that are, without doubt, scam operations, both of which use the tactic of insisting that students book blocks of lessons in advance.

By posting your range of prices, you distance yourself from those kind of organisations.

Personally, I'd also suggest you cease to use terms like 'platinum package'- it sounds like really dodgy marketing terminology. I think a lot of people interested in martial arts training are going to be immediately put off by terminology like that, cos they strongly associate martial arts with integrity and honesty, not marketing ploys.

Well said dave, it sounds like another MCdojo. I mean come on Platinum package, since when have these kind of words been used in Martial Arts, maybe he should be in America, it's ridiculous, I bet he even has self defence classes for the unborn, pay nine months in advance,

To be fair though, the days of paying as you train are pretty much going to be in the past in a few years.

With cost of the renting of rooms, insurances (people sue if they fall on their a%se these days), CRB checks, courses that instructors have to attend..... the list goes on. I'm suprised any club can survive on a pay as your train basis.

Its not like the 1980s where training was cheap, and the only thing an instructor needed to do was rent a church hall (at very cheap rates).

A friend of mine rents rooms for events, and the costs of renting are rising sharply.

I think Onewheeldave is spot on with some of what he says.

I think people do understand that there are background costs and that the instructors have to make a living,

But it’s at what cost? I know some clubs that charge £90 + for classes and to me that’s WAY TO MUCH but if you brake it down to what it is per class and grading, membership, insurance its not look to bad it works out about £3 per class if you train 7 days a week if you deduct what some people charge for gradings and membership, insurance. BUT ITS NOT FOR ME  (masterj don’t charge £90 im using another club as an example)


So what is a good price for say unlimited classes per week?
I charge £31 for 3 classes per week.


I think it’s the morels behind what you are doing and how you run your school that counts.
To me 'platinum package' can sound a little like a marketing ploy but how would you put across pricing packages if you have more that one???


I would also like to say xpatsyx it’s a little off what you put when you don’t know the bloke and are only going from what’s on the post, why not go meet him and have a chat over a drink and find out what the bloke is like before commenting?
He came across very open and friendly with no hidden agendas, behind what he is doing when I went to meet him he didn’t try and sell me anything, get me to go to any of has classes or anything (he’s not trying to rip people off) unlike some other instructors that I have come across in Sheffield.

I think Onewheeldave is spot on with some of what he says.



But it’s at what cost? I know some clubs that charge £90 + for classes and to me that’s WAY TO MUCH but if you brake it down to what it is per class and grading, membership, insurance its not look to bad it works out about £3 per class if you train 7 days a week if you deduct what some people charge for gradings and membership, insurance. BUT ITS NOT FOR ME  (masterj don’t charge £90 im using another club as an example)


So what is a good price for say unlimited classes per week?
I charge £31 for 3 classes per week.


I think it’s the morels behind what you are doing and how you run your school that counts.
To me 'platinum package' can sound a little like a marketing ploy but how would you put across pricing packages if you have more that one???


I would also like to say xpatsyx it’s a little off what you put when you don’t know the bloke and are only going from what’s on the post, why not go meet him and have a chat over a drink and find out what the bloke is like before commenting?
He came across very open and friendly with no hidden agendas, behind what he is doing when I went to meet him he didn’t try and sell me anything, get me to go to any of has classes or anything (he’s not trying to rip people off) unlike some other instructors that I have come across in Sheffield.

No i dont know him, but i know the association he is with, (Buy Taekwondo Money Unlimited) money money money thats all they are bothered about and if you read majority of his threads they are all about money . If someone goes on about it all the time then what you meant to think. As for paying upfront or block sessions , no its wrong unless they will carry the ones on you have missed, but they dont . what if your ill your kids are ill you cant go, not you fault not through lack of dedication but more dedication to your family, or you just might not fancy it, you go away on holiday , whatever there are allways reasons why people cant make training, then your losing out and they are gaining, my opinion, everyone has one, and if you read majority of replies to him everyone elses opinions more a less reflect each others.

No i dont know him, but i know the association he is with, (Buy Taekwondo Money Unlimited) money money money thats all they are bothered about and if you read majority of his threads they are all about money . If someone goes on about it all the time then what you meant to think. As for paying upfront or block sessions , no its wrong unless they will carry the ones on you have missed, but they dont . what if your ill your kids are ill you cant go, not you fault not through lack of dedication but more dedication to your family, or you just might not fancy it, you go away on holiday , whatever there are allways reasons why people cant make training, then your losing out and they are gaining, my opinion, everyone has one, and if you read majority of replies to him everyone elses opinions more a less reflect each others.




If people don't turn up, the instructor still has to pay the room rent.

With all the costs instructors have to meet (simply to get the insurance) you don't need many low turn outs for a club to fold.

No i dont know him, but i know the association he is with, (Buy Taekwondo Money Unlimited) money money money thats all they are bothered about and if you read majority of his threads they are all about money . If someone goes on about it all the time then what you meant to think. As for paying upfront or block sessions , no its wrong unless they will carry the ones on you have missed, but they dont . what if your ill your kids are ill you cant go, not you fault not through lack of dedication but more dedication to your family, or you just might not fancy it, you go away on holiday , whatever there are allways reasons why people cant make training, then your losing out and they are gaining, my opinion, everyone has one, and if you read majority of replies to him everyone elses opinions more a less reflect each others.

Hi xPatsyx,
Me thinks that you have been very mis-informed about my self and my academy. Let me clear some things up for you.
If you block book lessons here, you get a card with the amount of your lessons on it. If you do not turn up for your recommended 2 lessons a week, then they roll over until you come again!!! (Pause and waits for the apology no. 1)
If you are paying monthly (which is the most ASKED for payement method) and you fall ill, then we can freeze your payments or refund you depended on how long you are ill! (pauses and waits for apology no.2)
On average we charge £40.00 per month for ( wait for it.....) unlimited training!
Thats for upto 12 hours a week!
I have 6 students that do train that much. That will cost them only £9.23 a week!
Tell me xpatsyx where else can you get upto 12 hours training for £9.23 a week? (waits and listens for apology no. 3)
There is a club near by me that only train 4 times a week and the students there will end up paying about £10.00 per week if they train at the four lessons avaliable. I rest my case.
Take davemantis' advice and come and see where and what we are (thanks Dave for the support)

After our very successful recent TKD grading, we are pleased to announce that we are again opening our doors to new students. Male, female from 5 years old and upwards. As an internationally recognised Black Belt Academy, we are here to give you professional instruction in non political Freestyle Taekwondo. For all new starters, we are offering 'ONE WEEK FREE TRAINING!' Then after that we will give you your membership, insurance and your first TKD uniform for free! No catch! This saves you around £200.00 from the first time you walk through the doors.
Ladies kickbox workout and Korean Kickboxing sessions avaliable six days a week too! A new you is just acall away!

so minus the 9.23 that leaves 190.77 for membership insurance and my tkd suit. So thats my saving when i first join, next year when my insurance and membership and suit needs renewing(because all the training ) it will cost me 190.77 for those plus my training fees .can you tell me the individual prices for insurance membership and suit please cause i really cant understand your calculations. Are your suits made by Prada. :confused:,.

Hi xPatsyx,
Me thinks that you have been very mis-informed about my self and my academy. Let me clear some things up for you.
If you block book lessons here, you get a card with the amount of your lessons on it. If you do not turn up for your recommended 2 lessons a week, then they roll over until you come again!!! (Pause and waits for the apology no. 1)
If you are paying monthly (which is the most ASKED for payement method) and you fall ill, then we can freeze your payments or refund you depended on how long you are ill! (pauses and waits for apology no.2)
On average we charge £40.00 per month for ( wait for it.....) unlimited training!
Thats for upto 12 hours a week!
I have 6 students that do train that much. That will cost them only £9.23 a week!
Tell me xpatsyx where else can you get upto 12 hours training for £9.23 a week? (waits and listens for apology no. 3)
There is a club near by me that only train 4 times a week and the students there will end up paying about £10.00 per week if they train at the four lessons avaliable. I rest my case.
Take davemantis' advice and come and see where and what we are (thanks Dave for the support)

AN apology you must be joking . I have just been PM'D and have been informed of your charges, fees ,equiptment all i can say is you must drink alot of horlicks . so no thanks i wont come along and see what i'm missing , got one mortgage already.

AN apology you must be joking . I have just been PM'D and have been informed of your charges, fees ,equiptment all i can say is you must drink alot of horlicks . so no thanks i wont come along and see what i'm missing , got one mortgage already.

Read the first reply explaining fees. All membership fees and insurances are all in your monthly fees. So you save even more on your training sessions!!!!! My equipment is from Bytomic. Quality counts. Charges...what charges???? Please show your intelligence and explain! ...and Horlicks???? eeewwwww

Bytomic, where i get my karate gee good quality for £8.50, i do believe the TKD one is £11.50, so where does the other go - the £9.23 training fee, anyways i know what your about so i'll finish this thread for you. its closed

Bytomic, where i get my karate gee good quality for £8.50, i do believe the TKD one is £11.50, so where does the other go - the £9.23 training fee, anyways i know what your about so i'll finish this thread for you. its closed

You just don't get it do you!!!!? £9.23 is what you end up paying per week if you pay £40.00 per month! i.e

£40.00 x 12 months = £480.00 per year.
£480.00 / 52 weeks = £9.23 per week!

FOR UNLIMITED TRAINING!!!!!!!!!!! (All prices include all memberships and insurances!)

If you train twice aweek that equates to £4.61 per session.
If you train three times a week that equates to £3.07 per session
If you train for four sessions a week that equates to £2.30 a session!!
All this in a professional academy! Not a church hall or a school hall or a leisure centre. A fully funtional professional academy dedicated to you the martial artist.
(Wow this seems cheap...should revise the price structure me thinks :huh: ...lol)
So where do you train then xpatsyx? We would all like to know just how much you pay per week for training TWICE a week? How much is your insurance EVERY year...and youR membership EVERY year!
Are you sure you got pm'd? Or just cant stop digging a hole. Don't worry..apology accepted!:hihi:

Hi

On average we charge £40.00 per month for ( wait for it.....) unlimited training!
Thats for upto 12 hours a week!
I have 6 students that do train that much. That will cost them only £9.23 a week!
Tell me xpatsyx where else can you get upto 12 hours training for £9.23 a week? (waits and listens for apology no. 3)
There is a club near by me that only train 4 times a week and the students there will end up paying about £10.00 per week if they train at the four lessons avaliable. I rest my case.
Take davemantis' advice and come and see where and what we are (thanks Dave for the support)

How much do you charge for a single lesson?

By which I mean, if I want to train at your club at times and regularity of my choosing, without paying upfront for block sessions, but simply turning up for one-off sessions and paying only for that session.

Hi
If you are paying monthly (which is the most ASKED for payement method) and you fall ill, then we can freeze your payments or refund you depended on how long you are ill! (pauses and waits for apology no.2)
On average we charge £40.00 per month for ( wait for it.....) unlimited training!
Thats for upto 12 hours a week!
I have 6 students that do train that much. That will cost them only £9.23 a week!
Tell me xpatsyx where else can you get upto 12 hours training for £9.23 a week? (waits and listens for apology no. 3)
There is a club near by me that only train 4 times a week and the students there will end up paying about £10.00 per week if they train at the four lessons avaliable. I rest my case.
Take davemantis' advice and come and see where and what we are (thanks Dave for the support)

I do appreciate your previously made distinction between a part-time local group and an 'academy'.

Nevertheless, there are groups like the wicker camp in thai boxing who also have dedicated premises, all day training, specialised equipment and tutors- basically an academy of thai boxing.

Yet, when i trained there they were always totally upfront about their prices (published on flyers) and always happy for students to 'pay-as-you-go'.

If I remember correctly, back then it was a very reasonable £3.50/session (I'm sure it'll have gone up since then)

They also offered good discounts for those wanting to train many hours a week and willing to pay upfront in advance- that's simply good business sense: but, like I say, they were always happy for people to pay for single sessions as-and-when.

I agree that £40/month for 48 hours training is very good value- but, most people are not interested in training 12 hours a week- they're after 1 or 2 sessions a week.

And they'd like to know in advance how much single as-and-when sessions cost, before making the trip down to check out your club.

I'll point out that the "come-down-and-see, before we give you basic info (like price)" attitude, once again, though initially reasonable sounding, is a standard marketing ploy used by scam-based industries; so you would be doing yourself a favour by showing you're not that kind of business and being totally open in disclosing your prices for one-off sessions in advance.

Hi master j
no matter what you print some people will always look to have a dig at you, when you are a proffessional martial artist, you put yourself on a platform and unfortunatly there are dozens of wannabe instructors out there who are jealous of a full time academys success.
£40 a month seems very reasonable to train, most places charge £5 per lesson so training for a full month would cost between £40 to £50 per month (some times there are 5 weeks in a month).

What people need to remember is you get what you pay for and martial arts is no exception.

The places that charge £2 / £3 per lesson well LOL

Quality training with a professional and good facilities cost £££
A local church hall limited equiptment and a part time instructor suits some people

Horses for courses

But before you believe what any one writes go and see for your self .

STEVE70
i charge £3.50 so ? what does that mean ?
Why don't you come along and try a £3.50 lesson?

Don't judge a club by price ...

Hi Oxma your classes may be very good, but £3.50 per class is cheap.

You are working in a service industry, and most people within the industry charge what they think they are worth, from plumbers, builders, joiners to the keep fit instructors, gyms and of course martial arts instructors, will all charge diffrent prices but will all charge what they think they are worth, when charging too cheaply 1 thing come to mind for the consumer and its 'he cant be very good, i.e.get what you pay for'

Look at cars they all do the same thing but some manufacturers believe there car is worth more, so a martial arts instructor should believe that what he /she has to offer is worth more than £3 or a packet of 10 fags, couple of pints, Mc Donalds, or what ever else costs £3 / £3.50 these days.


Ps no offence intended to any one just stating an opinion.

I can understand the fact it may cost more to train in dedicated premises, but I used to train at Bruno s Gym in Rotherham with some of the best equipment in the area for £5 A WEEK that entitled you to train as many times as you want.
I also train at a Thai boxing club with the ex european champion who has also trained many champions and he charges the same as me.
As for my prices I live in a (ex) mining village where people are not that affluent, so I am catering for the market I live in and give everyone the opportunity to train.
As long as my rent and expenses are paid with money to buy equipment then I am happy.
I really enjoy what I do and its all worth it when my students do well.

I can understand the fact it may cost more to train in dedicated premises, but I used to train at Bruno s Gym in Rotherham with some of the best equipment in the area for £5 A WEEK that entitled you to train as many times as you want.
I also train at a Thai boxing club with the ex european champion who has also trained many champions and he charges the same as me.
As for my prices I live in a (ex) mining village where people are not that affluent, so I am catering for the market I live in and give everyone the opportunity to train.
As long as my rent and expenses are paid with money to buy equipment then I am happy.
I really enjoy what I do and its all worth it when my students do well.

Well said.

Well said indeed- it's inspiring to know that there are still people teaching cos they love the art and want to pass on to others wheat they've gained from it.


Hi Oxma your classes may be very good, but £3.50 per class is cheap.

You are working in a service industry, and most people within the industry charge what they think they are worth, from plumbers, builders, joiners to the keep fit instructors, gyms and of course martial arts instructors, will all charge diffrent prices but will all charge what they think they are worth, when charging too cheaply 1 thing come to mind for the consumer and its 'he cant be very good, i.e.get what you pay for'

Look at cars they all do the same thing but some manufacturers believe there car is worth more, so a martial arts instructor should believe that what he /she has to offer is worth more than £3 or a packet of 10 fags, couple of pints, Mc Donalds, or what ever else costs £3 / £3.50 these days.


Actually, in my experience, most self-employed people determine their prices according to how much they need to cover hall rents, equipment costs, a reasonable hourly rate etc.

For many, money is not the be-all- they're in this cos they love teaching and, like ox ma, they'd probably rather have a class full of keen, enthusiastic but poor students, than be teaching well-off, but foolish, students who've fallen for the likes of 'we've got a platinum package but we won't reveal the cost of a one-off session' that it sounds like we may be getting at some of these plush 'academies'.

Back when I was 18, finding any martial arts club was a struggle- now, in sheffield, you're really spoiled for choice- a wide variety of styles (the only major style that seems to be missing is Kendo), at different clubs, with different attitudes.

As is obvious from this thread, and many others, high-quality tuition in Muay Thai, kickboxing, various forms of trad karate and Taekwondo, is available in the £3.50-£5.00/session range.

Now, if some prefer to pay more than that, or even join groups where it's not allowed to pay for a one-off session (ie you must book a months worth in advance), then fine- I've no problem with that.

I do, however, have a problem, when those running such 'academies', then try to put out some message that those teaching in church halls at affordable prices for the local community, are somehow inferior, that they somehow lack a sense of their own worth.

The reason that we do, today, have such a choice in quality martial arts traditional, is built on the foundation of a thousand such 'church-hall' clubs, started and maintained during difficult times when there was no other martial arts provision in this country, when most tuition was done for the love of the arts: well before anyone had even thought about putting together academies.

If anything in this world still retains a focus on the importance of honesty, honour, integrity and, remembering your roots and the roots of the art you practice- surely that's got to be traditional martial arts?

We live in an age when fleecing and scamming are the standard way of business in many industries- try buying a broadband service or mobile phone contract- what do you get- is it honesty, sincerity, upfront prices and good customer service?

No, it's small print, evasiveness, 'platinum price packages', lies and zero customer service: as the industry standard.

That attitude is pervading our whole business culture- and now, as is evident from discussions on this board, there are at least two sizable martial arts organisation who are openly using the same scam tactics to build up their membership.

Now i'm not saying that Master J's Taekwondo club is in the same category, but, from what he himself has posted here (and what he's not posted i.e. his postion/price for a non-block session), he's not, in my eyes, done himself any favours.

It's absolutely ludicrous that any martial arts club, when asked a direct question about the price of their sessions, gives only the information that it 'could-be-as-low-as £??.??' if you book a months worth, in advance, for £40.

It is, quite simply, evading the question- exactly what i'd expect from a seller of doube-glazing, but not from a teacher of an art where respect and honesty are integral.

The really sad thing, is that no-one with any real experience of martial arts is going to fall for such tactics- instead it's going to be the total beginners- mothers looking for something to give their child more confidence etc, who've going to get scammed into paying months worth of tuition, for sessions that will be wasted if the child decides he/she isn't really into it after all.

Or, worse, they like martial arts but, after a few sessions want to try another club/style/art and can't, cos they parent has learnt their lesson the hard way and now sees all martial arts schools as scams.

Well said indeed- it's inspiring to know that there are still people teaching cos they love the art and want to pass on to others wheat they've gained from it.



Actually, in my experience, most self-employed people determine their prices according to how much they need to cover hall rents, equipment costs, a reasonable hourly rate etc.

For many, money is not the be-all- they're in this cos they love teaching and, like ox ma, they'd probably rather have a class full of keen, enthusiastic but poor students, than be teaching well-off, but foolish, students who've fallen for the likes of 'we've got a platinum package but we won't reveal the cost of a one-off session' that it sounds like we may be getting at some of these plush 'academies'.

Back when I was 18, finding any martial arts club was a struggle- now, in sheffield, you're really spoiled for choice- a wide variety of styles (the only major style that seems to be missing is Kendo), at different clubs, with different attitudes.

As is obvious from this thread, and many others, high-quality tuition in Muay Thai, kickboxing, various forms of trad karate and Taekwondo, is available in the £3.50-£5.00/session range.

Now, if some prefer to pay more than that, or even join groups where it's not allowed to pay for a one-off session (ie you must book a months worth in advance), then fine- I've no problem with that.

I do, however, have a problem, when those running such 'academies', then try to put out some message that those teaching in church halls at affordable prices for the local community, are somehow inferior, that they somehow lack a sense of their own worth.

The reason that we do, today, have such a choice in quality martial arts traditional, is built on the foundation of a thousand such 'church-hall' clubs, started and maintained during difficult times when there was no other martial arts provision in this country, when most tuition was done for the love of the arts: well before anyone had even thought about putting together academies.

If anything in this world still retains a focus on the importance of honesty, honour, integrity and, remembering your roots and the roots of the art you practice- surely that's got to be traditional martial arts?

We live in an age when fleecing and scamming are the standard way of business in many industries- try buying a broadband service or mobile phone contract- what do you get- is it honesty, sincerity, upfront prices and good customer service?

No, it's small print, evasiveness, 'platinum price packages', lies and zero customer service: as the industry standard.

That attitude is pervading our whole business culture- and now, as is evident from discussions on this board, there are at least two sizable martial arts organisation who are openly using the same scam tactics to build up their membership.

Now i'm not saying that Master J's Taekwondo club is in the same category, but, from what he himself has posted here (and what he's not posted i.e. his postion/price for a non-block session), he's not, in my eyes, done himself any favours.

It's absolutely ludicrous that any martial arts club, when asked a direct question about the price of their sessions, gives only the information that it 'could-be-as-low-as £??.??' if you book a months worth, in advance, for £40.

It is, quite simply, evading the question- exactly what i'd expect from a seller of doube-glazing, but not from a teacher of an art where respect and honesty are integral.

The really sad thing, is that no-one with any real experience of martial arts is going to fall for such tactics- instead it's going to be the total beginners- mothers looking for something to give their child more confidence etc, who've going to get scammed into paying months worth of tuition, for sessions that will be wasted if the child decides he/she isn't really into it after all.

Or, worse, they like martial arts but, after a few sessions want to try another club/style/art and can't, cos they parent has learnt their lesson the hard way and now sees all martial arts schools as scams.

I have been watching this thread very very closely and onewheeldave its nice to see that there are still intelligent people out there. I my self run my club from a leisure centre and charge £3.00 per lesson for Taekwondo and £2.00 per lesson for kickboxing, not because i am crap and thats all i'm worth but the fact that i have pulled in more young 15year olds in to my club off the street, that the satisfaction i get from seeing that is all i want. My students have even said to me that it is worth more than i charge and if i put up my fees they will gladly still train and pay, i dont and wouldn't do that why should i , i cover the cost of the hall and every now and then i can go out and get either a set of focus pads or some other equiptment, but most of all when i have that student there and i know they cant afford to buy there suit or there sparring equiptment to go out and get them what they need is the most tremendous feeling to see that students smile on there face , and to see the effort they put in when they have had effort put in to them. Thats because i love the Martial Art not the money.

I have been watching this thread very very closely and onewheeldave its nice to see that there are still intelligent people out there. I my self run my club from a leisure centre and charge £3.00 per lesson for Taekwondo and £2.00 per lesson for kickboxing, not because i am crap and thats all i'm worth but the fact that i have pulled in more young 15year olds in to my club off the street, that the satisfaction i get from seeing that is all i want. My students have even said to me that it is worth more than i charge and if i put up my fees they will gladly still train and pay, i dont and wouldn't do that why should i , i cover the cost of the hall and every now and then i can go out and get either a set of focus pads or some other equiptment, but most of all when i have that student there and i know they cant afford to buy there suit or there sparring equiptment to go out and get them what they need is the most tremendous feeling to see that students smile on there face , and to see the effort they put in when they have had effort put in to them. Thats because i love the Martial Art not the money.

Do you teach at Concord by any chance?

Do you teach at Concord by any chance?

no mate, killamarsh. Pilsung i think train there. I am Sonbae tkd

no mate, killamarsh. Pilsung i think train there. I am Sonbae tkd

Thank you.

your welcome



www.sonbaetkd.co.nr

when people say that you get what you pay for then i would say check what you are getting. make sure that the gradings are Recognised by other groups and associations and not just in the club where you train.
many of the cheaper clubs offer the better qualifications so you are not always better paying more money !
in fact i would suggest that the ones that charge more seem to grade their members in their own sylabus so they cant go elsewhere.
if you want to make money then become a plumber not a martial arts instructor, its not about the money.

when people say that you get what you pay for then i would say check what you are getting. make sure that the gradings are Recognised by other groups and associations and not just in the club where you train.
many of the cheaper clubs offer the better qualifications so you are not always better paying more money !
in fact i would suggest that the ones that charge more seem to grade their members in their own sylabus so they cant go elsewhere.
if you want to make money then become a plumber not a martial arts instructor, its not about the money.

Why is it ok for a trades man to earn 25k a year but not a martial arts instructor????

All respect to oxma for teaching in the environment he does, but i bet most of you that have posted are part time instructors with a 'proper' day job.

If you ( no one in particular) thought that you were good at what you teach then you would have 200 plus students (especially teaching so cheap) so you could pack your day jobs in and teach full time academies/schools!

You cant deny that it would be every instructors dream to teach full time and earn a living from teaching MA, but its easier said than done!!

Dont be fooled in thinking that Clubs that are non for profit are some sort of blessing, most are funded by sporting charities, so the instructors only charge a small fee just enough to pay the churh hall but are actually paid to teach from grants and charitie donations (ie sport england grants or city council grants).

£40 a month = £10 per week for 2 lessons thats £5 per lesson which is reasonable.
After all as i mentioned earlier what would £5 buy you (A packet of fags, 2 pints of lager, mobile top up card?) try asking parents to smoke less, drink less, or get rid of the mobile phone so that there kids could train, and see how much diffrence your making to some peoples live then ??

Paying monthly can be a good motivator to parents and students,
think of this, A dad comes home late from work not had his tea yet, its cold and rainy out side, the little boy is on his play station and says 'dad i dont feel like going training tonight ' the dad thinks thats good cause i dont feel like taking you ive got other things to do, now you would be a liar if this had never happened to you before, be it MA, football, dancing, or some other activity that kids do, but if youve already paid for the lesson then the chances are you ARE going to tell you child he is going and thats that.

And as regards syllabus i dont think there are 2 Kickboxing classes in the UK (with diffrent instructors) that teach the same syllabus.

Why is it ok for a trades man to earn 25k a year but not a martial arts instructor????




It's not just MA instructors that don't earn 25K+ a year- teachers and nurses for example.

Most artists earn even less- why should MA intructors in particualr necessarily be entitled to a better wage than artists and nurses?

That said, if some MA instructors can earn 25K+ by running an academy, then fair enough- but, if, in doing so, they use marketing practices of dubious ethical value, then don't expect people not to discuss or critisise that.






Dont be fooled in thinking that Clubs that are non for profit are some sort of blessing, most are funded by sporting charities, so the instructors only charge a small fee just enough to pay the churh hall but are actually paid to teach from grants and charitie donations (ie sport england grants or city council grants).



So?

From the perspective of the paying student, what they're interested in is a good club with quality instruction and with an ethical attitude- if that exists in part because the instructor has had the foresight and immense patience necessary to secure regular community funding for their club, then well done to them.

Manyt students would rather be a part of a club based on integrity and respect, partly surviving via funding, than an academy financed entirely by its members being forced to pay monthly amounts in advance which only survives by using unethical marketing techniques.





£40 a month = £10 per week for 2 lessons thats £5 per lesson which is reasonable.
After all as i mentioned earlier what would £5 buy you (A packet of fags, 2 pints of lager, mobile top up card?) try asking parents to smoke less, drink less, or get rid of the mobile phone so that there kids could train, and see how much diffrence your making to some peoples live then ??

Paying monthly can be a good motivator to parents and students,
think of this, A dad comes home late from work not had his tea yet, its cold and rainy out side, the little boy is on his play station and says 'dad i dont feel like going training tonight ' the dad thinks thats good cause i dont feel like taking you ive got other things to do, now you would be a liar if this had never happened to you before, be it MA, football, dancing, or some other activity that kids do, but if youve already paid for the lesson then the chances are you ARE going to tell you child he is going and thats that.



I find it really arrogant that you're trying to force this 'motivating factor' on potential students.

Perhaps I don't want to be so motivated that I want to train 2 times a week, every week!

I am, after all, an adult, well capeable of deciding whether I want to pay for my sessions in blocks, in a advance, or, pay for sessions when, and only when, I'm there to train.

£40 a month is not £5 a session, unless, the student is actually training twice a week throughout the entire month.

If, one week, cos they've got other interests/committments, they train once a week- it's actually £10 a session.

If, one month, they only make 2 sessions, those sessions are actually £20 each.

and, while there are the afformentioned other clubs, offering excellent instruction and the option to pay only for the sessions you attend, as, when and if, you attend them, then clearly, in all respects, that is by far the better option for the student.

Maybe not better for the 'academy' instructor, but, then again, martial arts exist for the benefit of students and the community, not to guarantee an instructor a full-time living teaching MA for 25K+ a year!

And, for those students who do genuinely feel that they have a motivation problem that can only be corrected by paying for a months worth of sessions in advance, then they can always take the option of training at an academy that allows no other form of payment.

But, please, don't suggest that, for the rest of us, a refusal to allow us to pay for sessions one-at-a-time, is for our own good!!

I can understand the fact it may cost more to train in dedicated premises, but I used to train at Bruno s Gym in Rotherham with some of the best equipment in the area for £5 A WEEK that entitled you to train as many times as you want.
I also train at a Thai boxing club with the ex european champion who has also trained many champions and he charges the same as me.
As for my prices I live in a (ex) mining village where people are not that affluent, so I am catering for the market I live in and give everyone the opportunity to train.
As long as my rent and expenses are paid with money to buy equipment then I am happy.
I really enjoy what I do and its all worth it when my students do well.

I have been watching this thread very very closely and onewheeldave its nice to see that there are still intelligent people out there. I my self run my club from a leisure centre and charge £3.00 per lesson for Taekwondo and £2.00 per lesson for kickboxing, not because i am crap and thats all i'm worth but the fact that i have pulled in more young 15year olds in to my club off the street, that the satisfaction i get from seeing that is all i want. My students have even said to me that it is worth more than i charge and if i put up my fees they will gladly still train and pay, i dont and wouldn't do that why should i , i cover the cost of the hall and every now and then i can go out and get either a set of focus pads or some other equiptment, but most of all when i have that student there and i know they cant afford to buy there suit or there sparring equiptment to go out and get them what they need is the most tremendous feeling to see that students smile on there face , and to see the effort they put in when they have had effort put in to them. Thats because i love the Martial Art not the money.

It's good to see instructors with a good attitude, in it for what they can bring to the community, rather than purely to make a living from it.

I think it's often not recognised that clubs like this make a big difference to the communities they're in and, in this regard, they are at least as valuable and, probably far more so, than big academies where the priority is pulling in cash, in advance, from students fortunate to be able to front up a regular £40/month.

It's certainly undeniable that, for example, small local boxing clubs are of immense value- I've see so many interviews with boxers who've made it in the art, coming originally from deprived communites, in which they specifically mention that, had it not been for their boxing club, they believe they would have ended up, like many of their friends, in jail, or dead.

Kids in those communities generally could not afford to be paying £40/month upfront for sessions, so, the existence of boxing clubs and martial arts groups that share similar community-orientated principles, is invaluable.

Such clubs were turning out excellent martial artists for decades, before the rise of large 'academies' and, there's no reason to think that they won't continue to do so.

So, I congratulate you guys for having the integrity to do what you do and, I'd suggest that you and, all other instructors who are doing this for the love of the art, to remain alert, for when these academies start trying to dish dirt and call into question the value of small clubs like the ones you run.

Cos they will- once they've decided that the key to their success is to focus, not on offering quality training at good value, but, instead, on employing modern 'marketing techniques' to pull in those gullible enough to believe that the reason they have to pay in advance for sessions they may, or may not attend, is for their own good: the next logical step is for them to also try to convince their clients that the small local clubs who have to temerity to allow pay-for-sessions-as-you-have-them, are somehow of lower quality.

I think Onewheeldave is spot on with some of what he says.



But it’s at what cost? I know some clubs that charge £90 + for classes and to me that’s WAY TO MUCH but if you brake it down to what it is per class and grading, membership, insurance its not look to bad it works out about £3 per class if you train 7 days a week if you deduct what some people charge for gradings and membership, insurance. BUT ITS NOT FOR ME  (masterj don’t charge £90 im using another club as an example)


So what is a good price for say unlimited classes per week?
I charge £31 for 3 classes per week.




It's not so much the actual cost of the sessions that i'm taking issue with- if an instructor wants to charge £10 a session, then that's not a problem- if that's what they need to cover their operating costs and ensure an hourly rate they're happy with, then fair enough.

For example, a club operating in a prime location with massive premises costs, will clearly have to charge more than a low-cost-hire church hall in a deprived area.

And that's fair enough- if the charges are open and upfront, then students can decide which one they want to train at.

What I'm taking issue with is those instructors are totally evasive about the session costs and, to a lesser extent, those who refuse to allow payment-per-session.

especially when they then go on to imply that clubs who do permit pay-per-session, or who offer sessions at the £3.50-£5.00 level, are necessarily of lower quality.

Cos, as we all know, in terms of actual quality, many of those offering sessions at £3.50-£5.00, do compare very favourably indeed, to some of those academies who insist on upfornt fees of £40+ per month.




I think it’s the morels behind what you are doing and how you run your school that counts.
To me 'platinum package' can sound a little like a marketing ploy but how would you put across pricing packages if you have more that one???



There's no necessity to call it anything- it's basically just the training costs.

If it really needs a name, then how about 'discount cost for paying a month-in-adavnce'?

But, there's no excuse for 'platinum package' :)

To me and, I'd think, anyone else who's had to deal with this marketing rubbish that seems to be becoming an integral part of business life, it's an almost sure indicator of dodginess.

One wheel dave you didnt address the point i made about What can £5 buy you these days, and yes nothing wrong with a MA clubs instructor getting funding but not when they claim they teach for £2 /£3 on some moral basis,

And a full time Ma instructorshould be able to earn a good wage its not there fault that nurses or artists ? dont get that much.

The point being would you do something in your own time for nothing every week and perhaps sometimes pay for the hire of a hall out of you own pocket i think not

One week an instructor might go to a class with 10 students and the next 2 is this fair on the instructor - paying monthly can serve the purpose of you taking your training seriously, if its not for you then dont train.

This you are arguing over started with master j's platinum package.I myself used to be an instructor for master j before platinum packages was introduced into his club.since i have started my own club 15 of master j's students have joined me,and yes it was all to do with money,because he did no longer provide what they wanted,19 including my family and 20 with my disabled daughter which he said he could never get insurance for.I now no it was not that he couldnt get her insurance but was the fact he couldnt be bothered.the other 15 that left was because they wanted to carry on learning martial arts and no longer line his pocket for his own ego.So steve if you want to defend master j,go and meet him and judge him from yourself.

I can not believe what a response this has created.....one wheeldave, if you have read the posts, could I repeat that we do not do pay as you go training. It is explained to all new prospectus students.
I absolutely love my MA and the whole genre about MA's. If you cut me in half I bleed MA. I love teaching and still after all theses years get an extra heart beat every time a new students does a great kick or gets their new belt etc. I hardly have a drink, I dont smoke and don't do drugs....this is my life.
I truly believe that every one should do some thing to help keep or make them fitter and stronger no matter what age or financial situation they mey be in. That is why late last year we opened our doors to students for free sessions twice a week. Flyers distributed to local schools and communities. No catch, just free training for those who wanted to train in MA but would normally not bother. You want to know what happened.....we had 2 people walk through the doors over a 6 week offer. 2!!!! We closed the sessions and returned them to our timetable of training and we enrolled 10 people who train in that time slot! Go figure!
So to repeat...I don't have singular fee sessions. So I can't 'disclose' that figure...there isnt one.

[QUOTE=onewheeldave;3318079]


I find it really arrogant that you're trying to force this 'motivating factor' on potential students.

Perhaps I don't want to be so motivated that I want to train 2 times a week, every week!

I am, after all, an adult, well capeable of deciding whether I want to pay for my sessions in blocks, in a advance, or, pay for sessions when, and only when, I'm there to train.

£40 a month is not £5 a session, unless, the student is actually training twice a week throughout the entire month.

If, one week, cos they've got other interests/committments, they train once a week- it's actually £10 a session.

If, one month, they only make 2 sessions, those sessions are actually £20 each.

QUOTE]
I think that most of the MA clubs on here would really recommend twice a week training for furthering your knowledge etc. There are clubs that only allow you train for two sessions per week for a lot more than £40 p/m At ours you hav etotal unlimited training sessions for that. 99% of our students train 2-3 times a week, so yes it does equate to around the £3.50- £5.00 mark.
Just a straw poll here...how many instructors out there would love to do it full time in their own premises 6 days a week?

I think that most of the MA clubs on here would really recommend twice a week training for furthering your knowledge etc. There are clubs that only allow you train for two sessions per week for a lot more than £40 p/m At ours you hav etotal unlimited training sessions for that. 99% of our students train 2-3 times a week, so yes it does equate to around the £3.50- £5.00 mark.
Just a straw poll here...how many instructors out there would love to do it full time in their own premises 6 days a week?

Master_J- the 'quote' function on this board seems defective, if you edit your post and delete the semi-colon and following numbers/letters, it should display prorperly.

Fair enough, that you admit to not allowing payment for single sessions- it's your club and your choice.

You're right that at least 2 sessions a week would be recommended- just bear in mind that some people do not have the time to consistently appear for two sessions every week.

Personally, if I was looking for a place to train, having researched potential clubs, the first ones I'd knock off the list would be those who insist on payment in advance for blocks of sessions.

Why? because-

1. I'm an adult with freedom of choice and intelligence- I'll be the one to decide when and how often I train

2. Such clubs exclude those who can't afford £40/month, but, can afford £3.50-£5.00 for sessions as-and-when they have the cash: I have a bit of a thing about unnecessary exclusion of people on the grounds of finance

3. the afformentioned point that restriction of payment to in-advance-blocks, is a standard policy of most commercial (read 'not very good') gyms (weights/aerobics, not martial)), who get a significant portion of their running costs from people who've been duped into paying up to a year in advance, yet won't attend most of the sessions cos, it turns out, their committment level is not up to it. As the gym owners are perfectly aware of this, they are, IMO, not acting in their clients best interests, in fact, they are exploiting them.

Similalry, in-advance-payments and refusal to allow payment for the sessions the client actually gets, is a standard ploy used by the likes of broadband providers, mobile phone contract providers and the other 'legalised scam' operators.

For that reason alone, i will not train at a martial arts club that uses similar tactics.

But, you have every right to impose whatever payment restrictions you want at your own club- I wouldn't bother pushing the 'it's for the benefit of the students' line, cos we're not stupid :) You do it cos you think it's better for your own finances, yes?

If so, that's not even necessarily a bad thing- maybe you reason that, as it brings in more cash, you can plough that into making the club/equipment better.

Which is fair enough, there's room in this world for both types of club.

I'd sincerely suggest though, that you look up some of the threads on those previously mentioned martial arts associations that are, without doubt, scam operations that do rip-off gullible students- just so you can avoid going too far in the same direction.

And, of course, avoid the trap of putting down small local clubs, just cos they do offer pay-per-session and low hourly rates.


As for your poll, there's two instructors on this thread who, I reckon, if asked-

"Just a straw poll here...how many instructors out there would love to do it full time in their own premises 6 days a week?"

before saying yes, would probably be wanting to know exactly what is involved in that, asking if they'd have to give up teaching in their local (deprived) areas and, if they'd have to dissallow payment-per-session to make it financially available.

Because, as they've stated, they do it not for the money, but through love of the arts.

"Dont be fooled in thinking that Clubs that are non for profit are some sort of blessing, most are funded by sporting charities, so the instructors only charge a small fee just enough to pay the churh hall but are actually paid to teach from grants and charitie donations (ie sport england grants or city council grants)."

I have to disagree with you there Steve70 the parent organisation of Norton Dojo the I.O.G.K.F. (which I appreciate you've never heard of) is an international organisation from which Norton recieves not a penny. Norton Dojo,along with many other clubs, has to stand on it's own. Both entities are not for profit. I suppose you could argue "what is "profit"". But that can be left for another thread. The Sensei at Norton teaches Goju-Ryu because he believes it is beneficial to its practitioners and anyone who wants to study the art of Karate as it was intended to be used.

One wheel dave you didnt address the point i made about What can £5 buy you these days, and yes nothing wrong with a MA clubs instructor getting funding but not when they claim they teach for £2 /£3 on some moral basis,

And a full time Ma instructorshould be able to earn a good wage its not there fault that nurses or artists ? dont get that much.

The point being would you do something in your own time for nothing every week and perhaps sometimes pay for the hire of a hall out of you own pocket i think not

One week an instructor might go to a class with 10 students and the next 2 is this fair on the instructor - paying monthly can serve the purpose of you taking your training seriously, if its not for you then dont train.

£5 can buy you a session at the likes of the Wicker Muay Thai camp or, any number of locally run groups offering good quality tuition.

What it won't buy you is a session at master_j's academy, unless you can rustle up another seven £5 notes and are happy to pay upfront for a months worth of sessions.

This is not a difficult concept- £40/month for 8 sessions does not equate to £5/session- it equates to £40/8 session block.

And you're right- it's not for me: that doesn't equate to not training though, cos there's a host of excellent martial arts clubs of all types, that offer quality training AND allow payment-per-session, in the £3.50-£5.00 range.

In fact, as i'm not short of cash, i'd be happy to pay considerably more per session if I felt the club was outstanding- what I would never do is train at a club that insisted on up-front payments: nothing to do with cash, I just don't like the attitude.

This you are arguing over started with master j's platinum package.I myself used to be an instructor for master j before platinum packages was introduced into his club.since i have started my own club 15 of master j's students have joined me,and yes it was all to do with money,because he did no longer provide what they wanted,19 including my family and 20 with my disabled daughter which he said he could never get insurance for.I now no it was not that he couldnt get her insurance but was the fact he couldnt be bothered.the other 15 that left was because they wanted to carry on learning martial arts and no longer line his pocket for his own ego.So steve if you want to defend master j,go and meet him and judge him from yourself.

Right now i know the point of this thread which started by Master j advertising his club and has turned in to a lets have a go at him by his former students.

Price i respect what you do at norton do jo and we could proberbly start another thread on profit but i cant see how it works, once the hall fees are paid (£10 - £15) does the instructor give the rest back to the students ?
Does he take a wage out for teaching ?

I know by previous posts that Master js former students run on a similiar basis not for profit could some one explain how it works are the instructors volunteers ?

Back again just checked out you web site price and the training fees are £26 per month or £4 per session with £25 / £30 yearly licence and membership fees how does not for profit work?

Going round and round and round :D:D:D:D

How many people run a full time club and have full time jobs:huh::suspect::confused:
Its ok going on about I charge this and they charge that but you still have to live and I think £40 per month is ok better than say £90 some other full time places charge.

So if you were to teach full time then what would you charge?
Would you do it for free?
Would you just charge for the bills?
Would you need food?

I would also like to point out when I ran my club when I first came down to the area i was letting people off with fees when they could not pay for classes and giving out old t-shirts and uniforms to them that could not afford it.
Only to find those people worked full time £20.000 per year when i was on min wage, was sitting in the pub laughing with there mates at how they got out of paying for lesions that night, or in the pub with a pint when they told me there could not afford £2.50 for there kids class fees and i had to put the rent in out of my own ££££££££££.

So I got fed up with it and now I charge per month, if people can’t make it because they are ill, on holiday, work shifts or out of work then I work something out with them. But im sick of people taking the P*** with training that’s why I do it the way I do it now. I run a small club sometimes there is only 2 of 3 in each class some times more. At the end of the day I have bills to pay im not going to make excuses for that. If people don’t like it then so be it they don’t have to train.


I would also like to point out before you star with me, you don’t know me, you don’t know my background, you don’t know how much charity work I do or the work with anti bulling and so on i do. The point im trying to make in this RANT is don’t judge people by what other’s say or by what they put on a forum, go chat to them.


If you asked a martial artist was to fight a street fighter the martial artist would win.
If you asked martial artists to fight 1 street fighter then the street fighter would win.
Because the 2 martial artists would be to busy fighting each other.

I agree Dave, who gives a **** what clubs charge, if you don't want to pay the training fees, whatever they are, go to another club.

Can't see the point of all this argueing about fees :gag:

Craig.
www.kapapsheffield.co.uk

I agree Dave, who gives a **** what clubs charge, if you don't want to pay the training fees, whatever they are, go to another club.

Can't see the point of all this argueing about fees :gag:

Craig.
www.kapapsheffield.co.uk

By the same reasoning though- if you don't want to read arguments like the ones in this thread, go read another thread? :)

Seriously, as far as I'm concerned, this isn't argueing, it's discussion, on a topic which, obviously, some consider to be worthy of discussion.

And, it is a discussion board, after all.

For my part, i've stated clearly on multiple occasions than a tutor can charge however he/she wants at his/her club.

But, if they then go on, as some have done in this thread, to start implying that clubs that allow pay-per-session or have low rates, are somehow inferior- if they start taking the 'you get what you pay for' and 'pay peanuts, get monkeys' lines, then, IMO, that's bang out-of-order and, I'll feel very free to post my opinion on that.

No disrespect to you or Davemantis, i'm aware that you're both well into your respective arts and run decent groups.

How many people run a full time club and have full time jobs:huh::suspect::confused:
Its ok going on about I charge this and they charge that but you still have to live and I think £40 per month is ok better than say £90 some other full time places charge.

So if you were to teach full time then what would you charge?
Would you do it for free?
Would you just charge for the bills?
Would you need food?

I would also like to point out when I ran my club when I first came down to the area i was letting people off with fees when they could not pay for classes and giving out old t-shirts and uniforms to them that could not afford it.
Only to find those people worked full time £20.000 per year when i was on min wage, was sitting in the pub laughing with there mates at how they got out of paying for lesions that night, or in the pub with a pint when they told me there could not afford £2.50 for there kids class fees and i had to put the rent in out of my own ££££££££££.

So I got fed up with it and now I charge per month, if people can’t make it because they are ill, on holiday, work shifts or out of work then I work something out with them. But im sick of people taking the P*** with training that’s why I do it the way I do it now. I run a small club sometimes there is only 2 of 3 in each class some times more. At the end of the day I have bills to pay im not going to make excuses for that. If people don’t like it then so be it they don’t have to train.


I would also like to point out before you star with me, you don’t know me, you don’t know my background, you don’t know how much charity work I do or the work with anti bulling and so on i do. The point im trying to make in this RANT is don’t judge people by what other’s say or by what they put on a forum, go chat to them.

I'm not sure if you're referring to me? I'm certainly not 'starting with you' :)

As I said above, i'm simply expressing an opinion or two.

sorry to hear about you being taken advantage of, in this world we do need to watch out for those who will take advantage of what's offered charitably.

And I fully sympathise with tutors who feel that they must enforce pay-in-advance, simply to meet the bills.

All I'm saying is, that-

1. it's rough on the many genuinely poor potential students, who are honest and wouldn't take advantage in the way that, unfortunately, others do

2. that, for whatever reasons, many clubs do offer excellent facilities, quality tuition, low rates AND allow pay-per-session

How do they do that? I don't know, but, it's obviously not the case that pay-in-advance is the ONLY way to make a group work.



One thing I would comment on, is that several times in this thread it's been mentioned that classes can have extremely low turn-outs and that being the reason for insisting on pay-in-advance.

It just hits me very strongly, that it could well be the pay-in-advance requirement that, in some ways, could be a contributing factor in that?

I'm sure that, when a student signs up for the first blocks and hands over the cash, their turn-out will be pretty good- but, when it's renewal time, they could well be thinking twice about it.

Certainly, when I trained at the Wicker Muay Thai camp, which had low rates (£3.50) and was totally happy for payment-per-session (that's how most students did pay), what was noticable was that there was NEVER, while I was there, a low turn-out.

It always seemed to be, doing a quick estimate from memory alone, around the 25-50 mark.

And, of those students, by no means all were turning up religiously for 2/3 sessions a week. Some would dissapear for weeks, but, when they did show, they were as much part of the group as anyone and, no-one was ever made to feel bad for not turning up solidly.

In fact, that laid-back attitude was probably a good part of why the students loved the place so much (by laid-back, i'm obviously not referring to the training itself, which was at the standard of discipline you'd expect in Muay-Thai).

Maybe it is geneuinely worth asking yourself whether allowing pay-per-session could actually lead to an increase in numbers?

Whatever though, as far as I'm concerned and, I do consider myself a reasonable, intelligent and fair person, as far as I'm concerned, a club that insists on block payments in advance, is a club I, personally, would not train at.

I'm sure I'm not alone in that, so, that's a fair number of potential students who you lose out on if you insist on pay-in-advance.

And, like I said before, it's not cos I can't afford it, it really is just the principle of it.

No offence meant, no argument intended, it's just the way i feel about it.

Back again just checked out you web site price and the training fees are £26 per month or £4 per session with £25 / £30 yearly licence and membership fees how does not for profit work?

Like I said "what is "profit" ", in the context of which we speak?If you want to start another thread on that,do so. I'm sure it would be a lively debate. I suggest this isn't the thread to do it

I would like to point out that my numbers are low because that’s what people wanted they didn’t want to be in a class with 25/50 people they wanted a class with no more than 10 per class of 10 per instructor.
I ran a bug club up Newcastle with 30+ students in it and I get and the students I have get more satisfaction in only having smaller classes.
That’s not to say I don’t make exceptions i.e. I had a student train with my on Sunday that is only in the area once or twice a month I don’t charge him per month, I also give people the opportunity that want private classes to pay £15 per class or £40 a month upfront for 4.
And a lot of people that I know don’t do that that train lets say for non profit, I know one that charges £50 per hr no exceptions.


All im trying to say is its things like the rent of a full time place and all that’s in with that. That’s what makes people charge per month so they know they can keep the place open. And they attract the kind of people that they want to train there like people that want to train 2 + times per week.

At the end of the day they don’t want people that can’t afford the training they have a living to make like everyone.

I would like to point out that’s not to say that they don’t give free classes em (like a scholarship) to people that can’t afford to train that’s what i did.


ps I'm not sure if you're referring to me? I'm certainly not 'starting with you'

there you go moved it to
martial arts class fees
http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=327443

I would like to point out that my numbers are low because that’s what people wanted they didn’t want to be in a class with 25/50 people they wanted a class with no more than 10 per class of 10 per instructor.
I ran a bug club up Newcastle with 30+ students in it and I get and the students I have get more satisfaction in only having smaller classes.
That’s not to say I don’t make exceptions i.e. I had a student train with my on Sunday that is only in the area once or twice a month I don’t charge him per month, I also give people the opportunity that want private classes to pay £15 per class or £40 a month upfront for 4.
And a lot of people that I know don’t do that that train lets say for non profit, I know one that charges £50 per hr no exceptions.


All im trying to say is its things like the rent of a full time place and all that’s in with that. That’s what makes people charge per month so they know they can keep the place open. And they attract the kind of people that they want to train there like people that want to train 2 + times per week.

At the end of the day they don’t want people that can’t afford the training they have a living to make like everyone.

I would like to point out that’s not to say that they don’t give free classes em (like a scholarship) to people that can’t afford to train that’s what i did.



That makes a lot of sense- a student will always learn more in a small class and, given there's less students, obviously they'll have to pay more to cover the tutors costs and hall prices.

And, if a tutor wants to attract only students committed enough for twice weekly sessions, then it makes sense to have the monthly charge- though I still think it makes more sense to have the monthly charge as an option, with PAYG for those who prefer it.

Once again, I'd like to emphasise that what I've posted in this thread, is not having a go at genuine and sincere instructors, but, increasinlgy there are non-genuine and insincere instructors/clubs who are bringing the martial arts world into dispute.

Davemantis, I applaud you for starting your 'fees' thread, that (and your other posts here) indicates to me that you're one of the sincere ones and that you're genuinely interested in the circumstances of your students.

You'll no doubt have seen some of the references to Castle academy on your thread-

We'd prefer payg, our daughter had started at castle bba for a £400 life membership, which amazingly finished after 6 months ( Completely mis sold to us ) they then tried to sting us for a further £4000, i pretty much laughed in his face...Its a shame though as she was very good at it. We will be looking to put her into a pay as you go course soon.

and that is one of the scam operations I was talking about earlier.

When you hear that members of the public, on trying to get an intro to the martial arts world for their children, are so blatently ripped off like this, i think you'll understand why I get a bit concerned.

And, it seems, the one thing these scam operators have in common, is a refusal to allow pay-per-session, which is no wonder, because this tactic is rife in all industries which are essentially based on duping people.

Whilst I accept that there are non-scam motivations for insisting on up-front-monthly payments, the fact is, that one sure-fire way for good clubs to distance themselves from the scammers, is to simply allow pay-per-session, because all potential students then know that, if they have any dissatisfaction with the club, they can walk away and not lose out financially.

Whilst I accept that there are non-scam motivations for insisting on up-front-monthly payments, the fact is, that one sure-fire way for good clubs to distance themselves from the scammers, is to simply allow pay-per-session, because all potential students then know that, if they have any dissatisfaction with the club, they can walk away and not lose out financially.

I can understand what your reasons are for PAYG but what about tthe instructors time and effort put onto those students who then just walk away?
What would happen if one day that student turns up to train and the instructor does not turn up because he can't be bothered? His commitment didn't take him to class? I have trained many students and had a few who trained to teir Black Belts. When I changed to pay monthly, the comitment was huge and I ended up having trained upto 15 black belts from novices! They are proud for the work they have put in and their goal of being a black belt. All this and still keeping quality as the priority!

If the student wants to miss training or cease training, that is entirely up to them!

They're paying for a service (tuition) and, as human beings with choice, may wish to cease receiving that service.

If they walk away, then the tutor, assuming he/she has sets prices according to their requiements to cover costs and their own teaching fee, has obviously been paid for the work they've done- he/she can't expect them to be tied to them for ever, people move on a do different stuff.

The instructor, as a provider of that service, obviously takes on the responsibility to actually turn up for the sessions- that's part of what they're being paid for.

Think of other services- what if your window cleaner started insisting on a years charges in advance? What if he/she justifed it on the grounds that

1. PAYG doesn't cover his/her costs
2. his/her customers may 'walk away'
3. that he's found the 'loyalty' of his (doubtless, few remaining) customers increases when he/she dissallows them to simply pay for the windows cleaned?

Does it not worry you at all, that the previously mentioned martial arts schools who exist by blatently ripping off gullible memebers of the public, all insist on upfront payments and dissallow PAYG?

Or that every scam-based industry does the same.

Do you not see that when a school happily allows PAYG, that it almost eliminates the posibility that they are a scam operation, cos, the students can simply walk away?

You seem to be under the impression that a school can't be financially viable, without insisting on upfront payments. Yet, as is obvious from postings on this thread, there are many schools with quality tuition, large numbers of students and which must be financially viable, given they've been running so long (eg the wicker camp).

And, i do appreciate what you're saying about your 15 black belts trained from novices, that's an excellent result for both you and them- but, what's that got to do with not allowing PAYG- places like the Wicker Camp also produce many, many students of equivalent standard, whilst allowing PAYG.

If the student wants to miss training or cease training, that is entirely up to them!

They're paying for a service (tuition) and, as human beings with choice, may wish to cease receiving that service.

If they walk away, then the tutor, assuming he/she has sets prices according to their requiements to cover costs and their own teaching fee, has obviously been paid for the work they've done- he/she can't expect them to be tied to them for ever, people move on a do different stuff.

The instructor, as a provider of that service, obviously takes on the responsibility to actually turn up for the sessions- that's part of what they're being paid for.

Think of other services- what if your window cleaner started insisting on a years charges in advance? What if he/she justifed it on the grounds that

1. PAYG doesn't cover his/her costs
2. his/her customers may 'walk away'
3. that he's found the 'loyalty' of his (doubtless, few remaining) customers increases when he/she dissallows them to simply pay for the windows cleaned?

Does it not worry you at all, that the previously mentioned martial arts schools who exist by blatently ripping off gullible memebers of the public, all insist on upfront payments and dissallow PAYG?

Or that every scam-based industry does the same.

Do you not see that when a school happily allows PAYG, that it almost eliminates the posibility that they are a scam operation, cos, the students can simply walk away?

You seem to be under the impression that a school can't be financially viable, without insisting on upfront payments. Yet, as is obvious from postings on this thread, there are many schools with quality tuition, large numbers of students and which must be financially viable, given they've been running so long (eg the wicker camp).

And, i do appreciate what you're saying about your 15 black belts trained from novices, that's an excellent result for both you and them- but, what's that got to do with not allowing PAYG- places like the Wicker Camp also produce many, many students of equivalent standard, whilst allowing PAYG.

One word that you seem to miss out from many posting as do many others is 'commitment'.
PAYG does work for some, but not for my academy. So don't try and say that all academies that do not offer it are trying to scam people as I find that very offensive to my self, my instructors and my academy.
PAYG is great for the short term I think, but not for the long term any more. Times have changed and some peolpe are still looking back over their shoulders.
As for the window cleaning service senario, well that does not add up. Chalk and cheese to this thread.
As you now know we offer them 12-18 sessions free before making their mind up with no catches or pushy sales techniques. We tell them straight from the start the paying methods and they them selves make their own mind up, Not a friend making their mind up for them but their own.

One word that you seem to miss out from many posting as do many others is 'commitment'.
PAYG does work for some, but not for my academy. So don't try and say that all academies that do not offer it are trying to scam people as I find that very offensive to my self, my instructors and my academy.


I'm not- I've at no point said that ALL schools disallowing PAYG are scammers (I have said that the vast majority of scammers disallow PAYG, which is true).


PAYG is great for the short term I think, but not for the long term any more. Times have changed and some peolpe are still looking back over their shoulders.

Well, as pointed out many times now, PAYG works fine for many schools, in both the short term and the long term, with many PAYG schools turning out long-term, dedicated and committed students of high standard.

What do you mean by people looking over their shoulders?




As you now know we offer them 12-18 sessions free before making their mind up with no catches or pushy sales techniques. We tell them straight from the start the paying methods and they them selves make their own mind up, Not a friend making their mind up for them but their own.

I didn't know that- You've only just mentioned it?

How does the 12-18 free sessions thing work- is it literally a case of people just turning up and doing the sessions without having to sign anything or hand over any form of bank details? And then, if they've had the 12-18 sessions and dont want to continue, they just walk away having not spent a penny?

Times have changed and some peolpe are still looking back over their shoulders.
One word that you seem to miss out from many posting as do many others is 'commitment'.

firstly what does the first sentance mean ? sounds like a threat?
secondly the commitment thing ? are you stating that martail artists have to commit to money ?

I run a Taekwondo School which will be opening a full time dojang soon. The prices for that will be £3.50 per session or you can buy 10 for £30. This wont include grading fees or membership. Once all the time slots are running you can also take the option of paying £35 per month which will include grading fees.
The venue will have 150 meters of training space, Martial arts shop and coffee area and of course changing rooms.
I have trained in martial arts for over 20 years and hold a 5th Dan in TKD. People will always pay what they see is a fair price for what they get.

The membership fees will be £20 per year. (That will get you membership with the national governing body as well)
The grading fees will be £25.
Students will have 3 options on how they wish to pay. No contacts which make you pay even if you dont train.
You pay a month in advance so if you are on holiday dont pay that month and buy a bulk session ticket. You must use these within 8 weeks
If your ill then sorry but we are trying to make a fair syatem for all which includes the Academy.
We will be opening soon. Look out for Sheffield Mudo Academy
www.sheffieldmudo.co.uk