This issue of vegetarianism seems to me to deserve its own topic. So for those who have just come here, the quote is from another topic. (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=17&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start= 0)

As a little into we have been discussing if it is morally right, or perhaps morally acceptable, to eat meat. I claim it is, Mr. Convert challenges us to slaughter our own meat. I'm not sure where this goes if you do it. For instance, If I kill the animal am I better than if I dont kill the animal yet still eat its meat? What happens if I kill an animal and then am so distraught that I cant eat it and all the food goes to waste, and the animal needn't have died? Which is the worse crime?

Donteatowtwieye said:-
RF - Do you know the first humans on earth DIDN'T eat meat as you so think they did, once we were a society of vegetarians! In the UK alone, 800 million animals are slaughtered for food each year. Then they're transported from factory farm, to livestock market, then to the horrors of the slaughterhouse.
Some have to endure the long, stressful haul to markets abroad, often in extremes of weather without adequate provisions such as food, water, air and light, to places where conditions are even worse. Livestock farming makes inefficient use of limited resources. Millions of people go hungry and thirsty in the developing world while grain and water is squandered on rearing animals to be slaughtered for food in the developed world. Plus the fact RF that millions of hectares of life sustaining rain forest are destroyed each year to create grazing pasture. This kills off and puts at risk animal species and indigenous human populations.
You may as well give up Mr RF as you have lost your argument, we have developed and come a long way, WE DO NOT NEED MEAT TO SURVIVE' in 2003, it's just unfortunately a habbit that people like you can't/refuse to break! :!: Just because we have been 'doing it for centuries' doesn't make it right!

I have quoted in completeness only because I decided to start a new topic.

In answer to Donteatowtwieye I disagree with the first statement, and agree with many others, but let me first say that a point I was trying to make though seems to have been lost. Say that the world becomes a vegetarian one and animals are no longer bred for food. Then we will not have as many farm animals in the world. Many of the farm animals have no protection from predators other than hamuns because they have been changed so much over the centuries by selective bredding. So here's the point Im trying to get to. Less animals will live, they will live in more danger out in the wild, where there are no humans to protect them. Where does suffering outweigh life. No animal should expect a pain free life. Everything has either a predator to fear or just plain old hunger and starvation, except us humans.

Whilst we are on the subject of what if's I would like to voice my disgust at what Donteatowtwieye calls "the horrors of the slaughterhouse," and I too wish that all animals die in serenity. This doesn't mean I wish to be vegetarian. I dislike too many ingreedients of a vegetarian's diet for one thing. (pasta and melted cheese mainly.)

I know that the natural world is a nasty place and we should be better and we aren't. There is nothing wrong with being vegetarian, so long as you dont do things such as lay mouse traps, and kill flies and spiders and the like, because obviously you would then be a hypocrite if you were to say killing animals is cruel. As a lifestyle choice I want to make it clear I have no problems with vegetarians and vegetariansim at all.

And just to make it clear to Mr Convert yes i would be able to kill animals for food if I had to.

Pasta and melted Cheese???? Never in 11 years of being a vegetarian have I ate pasta and melted cheese! Your view of vegetarianism is a very limited view RF. You are absolutely blind to the facts, you believe only what you want to believe, it's the carnivore's usual way of opting out of a logical and moral debate. You know full well that killing animals for the sheer hell of eating them, which we can healthily live without, is wrong and does not justify the right to fill your belly with their flesh.
In response to your spelling of 'Ingredient' I'm in full support of your spelling, in your position 'in'greed'ient' is exactly right.
I shall enter nothing more on the subject of Vegetairanism on this forum, and yourself no doubt will feel even more 'proud' to be able to have the 'last word' on the subject and feel you have somehow triumphed in the debate, you haven't RF. Your limited opinion in thinking that plumper chicken fillets were created by 'better looked after birds' is totally, beyond a doubt in the mind of a deeply misinformed human being.

I take this opportunity to give thanks for allowing me to express my feelings on the subject of animal welfare and vegetarianism.

I wish all contributors to this forum a peaceful 2003 where peace and love will find their hearts and fill them with the knowledge to know the difference between right and wrong.............blessings Donteatowtwieye X

Given that you haven't answered my questions, and you insult me and my typo's I ask you another question, have I fallen for a troll?

Humans have eaten meat for millions of years, it is highly likely that humans wouldn't have evolved into such a highly intelligent species without eating meat.

You can't say that it's wrong to eat meat, look at big cats and other natural carnivores, they don't have a problem with eating meat. I don't mind people eating meat as long as the animal is killed in a humane way. What is wrong is people who kill animals that they don't intend to eat, like fox hunters for example. That is such a cruel and barbaric sport that I'm very surprised it's still legal.

I'm disapointed Doneatowtwieye no longer wishes to contribute to this discussion, because it is somewhat a moot point.

Your Quote "You can't say that it's wrong to eat meat, look at big cats and other natural carnivores, they don't have a problem with eating meat". ------These don't have other choices of what to eat when they're browsing the supermarket shelves.
Couldnt vote as it doesnt explain how to!

The problem with the poll is now fixed - so please vote :)

Also, if you're not already registered yet (it's free!), then check out this page for the reasons why you should:

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=2

hello there,
sally here, when does the poll end? I am vegetarian and would like to cast my vote am I too late? thank you

As far as I am aware, unless otherwise stated it has no end date.

am a vegan i think that if humans are intelligent why do we still kill animals in a way which most painful. Cows are kept for milk and when there offspring is born he is killed straight away for veal. Why should we be drinking cows milk? its not nature. why do cows make milk? to feed there offspring, cows milk is for baby cows , not humans.

Link to small picture of a bloody and dead cows head (http://www.peta.org/pdfs/posterfoodface.gif)

http://www.peta.org/mc/banners/bannermilksucks.gif

My view is that this subject is too complicated for us to be able to sort it out in our lifetime,I was brought up to eat meat (when we could afford it),, most of the time we couldn't and before anyone makes snide remarks I am referring to the thirties,when poverty was rife(yes really)!. However,I am not callous and unfeeling and I do have sympathy for the animals,also I could very easily be a vegetarian.Meat eating is not healthy for human beings, as it is full of disease,a friend of mine finished up a cripple after a lifetime of eating it,and that statement came from his specialist. I much prefer to eat a healthy diet. :D

mmmmmm. something to get my teeth into :lol:

I eat meat - I enjoy eating meat. If given the opportunity I would have a go at killing my own food - because as far as I am concerned it should be part of the process and I am not 100% happy about the way in which our animals are kept for the most part.

As for this fluffy rubbish about how humans used to be a few millions years ago. People hold our ancestors up to be tree loving conservationists in tune with nature - but there is scientific evidence to the contrary that shows they actually turned large areas of the British isles into swampland due to over cultivation (this is waaaaay before the romans got here).

Do you think they bothered to consider the deers whilst raping and piliging the next tribe over? NOOOOOOOOOOOO.

If someone chooses not to eat meat and/or animal products fine, great super smashing. I just do not want a moral judgement and lecture when I am tucking into a nice large steak.

This not because I have a guilty concience(spelling?) but because I am enjoying eating a dead animal. It tastes good, especially with fried onions and mushrooms.

Moon Maiden

My opinion is that Humans are meat eaters and that meat is vital for the growth of us humans. If people don't want to eat it fine, but don't go protesting about protesting about people that do.

I don't think either 'yes' or 'no' ...

I think it's down to the invidual ... i.e. you decide yourself if it's acceptable for you ... and it's nobody else's business.

If I'm totally honest, I don't believe that an 'enlightened' species such as ours has any need whatsoever to visit gigadeath on animals reared for meat.

Like sun tans were in the 70s, meat has been a wealth indicator, such a rich foodstuff with valuable fats and proteins, not to mention a great taste.

Over the years, and centuries, this passion for meat (and a meaty diet does change your temperament) has swelled a gigantic meat industry that has forever altered the fortunes of the USA, Argentina, Uruguay, and other big beef producers.

In northern europe, the abscence of half a continent of rolling plain meant meat farming became intensified

To cope with rising demand (linked to increased wealth) this industry has had to resort to revoltingly industrial measures to slaughter the billions of animals required worldwide.

What is so repellent about this is that eating meat *is* a rewarding activity. The mouthfeel and taste of the food, and it filling your belly, releases all the dopaminergic pleasure chemicals in your brain.

Like sugar, much of the world is also addicted to meat.

Meat tastes good, because it is good, but with our perfect technological solutions to things, we have ended up to our necks in it, eating it 3 times a day in some cases. instead of maybe three days for a fortnight.

So I think a compromise should be struck with the animals:

Rural agrarian domestication only - animal habitat to closely resemble natural one.
50% of all eggs
All milk from mothers of stillborn calves, kids, ewes whales etc
a wool harvest
leather from natural death of animals
likewise fur, horns, bones, fat. (they are generally less sentimental than we are)
companionship

In return
security,
food,
shelter,
warmth,
medical insurance,
wider ecological commitments to biodiversity
renweable energy
a solution to the problem of the car (if there is one...)
global fishing moratorium (except in subsistence economies) for 50 years - with an option to extend.

I am not a vegetarian.

[i] Phanerothyme said:

So I think a compromise should be struck with the animals:

Rural agrarian domestication only - animal habitat to closely resemble natural one.
50% of all eggs
All milk from mothers of stillborn calves, kids, ewes whales etc
a wool harvest
leather from natural death of animals
likewise fur, horns, bones, fat. (they are generally less sentimental than we are)
companionship

In return
security,
food,
shelter,
warmth,
medical insurance,
wider ecological commitments to biodiversity
renweable energy
a solution to the problem of the car (if there is one...)
global fishing moratorium (except in subsistence economies) for 50 years - with an option to extend.

I am not a vegetarian. [/B]

er, thank you Dr. Doolittle. We'll be in touch. NEXT!

Originally posted by Jamie
I don't think either 'yes' or 'no' ...

I think it's down to the invidual ... i.e. you decide yourself if it's acceptable for you ... and it's nobody else's business.


Exactly...its our own choice,just like everything else we all choose what we want to do.
I eat meat because I like it,and want to eat meat,I drink beer because I want to,smoke because I want to.

All these these things have been done since the begining and we will continue to do them.
In the same token it is everyones right to protest against these things,afterall we do live in a free society that allows us to.

If you want to eat meat...do it
If you dont want to...dont


simple as that.

as people are starving in some parts of the world, what would happen if we all stopped eating meat? is there enough non-meat produce in the world to sustain everyone. don't know any facts, just curious thats all. also, dont know what my kids would say if i told them no more mcdonalds or KFC.

Originally posted by Jamie
I don't think either 'yes' or 'no' ...

I think it's down to the invidual ... i.e. you decide yourself if it's acceptable for you ... and it's nobody else's business.

Couldn't agree more.There seems to have been a lot of thread on this forum lately of this nature.

Not to sound to harsh,but if a cow/pig /chicken is killed for food,what great loss is it.They are bread to be eaten,if we didn't what else would they do??? A cow is never going to cotribute much to society,a pig never going to do anymore than eat and s*** all day,Babe was a film,its not real life you know.
I know its everyones right to make up ther own minds and i know a lot of people will disagree with what i wrote,but its a cruel world out there,for animals as well as humans.

yes, but who killed bambi and why?

Would a hungry lion or shark think twice about eating a human? We're part of the food chain too. It's a very natural process - being a vegetarian isn't, IMO.

Originally posted by Killian
as people are starving in some parts of the world, what would happen if we all stopped eating meat? is there enough non-meat produce in the world to sustain everyone. don't know any facts, just curious thats all.

An enormous amount of non-meat products goes to feed meat on legs. Without the meat trade there would be more than enough food to feed the world. So to answer your question, yes there is enough non-meat produce to sustain everyone.

Originally posted by max
An enormous amount of non-meat products goes to feed meat on legs. Without the meat trade there would be more than enough food to feed the world. So to answer your question, yes there is enough non-meat produce to sustain everyone.

okay, but what would happen to all the companies and jobs created by meat related products? how would this affect the economy (think i'm about to be baffled by science and figures here). also it doesn't answer the question of my kids and fast food outlets, not to mention the fact that most people would rather have roast pork than nut cutlets.

Originally posted by t020
Would a hungry lion or shark think twice about eating a human? We're part of the food chain too. It's a very natural process - being a vegetarian isn't, IMO.

A very good point. Although the PC brigade will probably try to argue that we humans should suppress our inherent animal instincts and live on muesli and sunflower seeds.

Most of the meat eaters seem to be saying that they are happy to eat something as long as it is 'humanely' killed. I don't really think its possible to kill something humanely. It seems to be a contradiction in terms. Lots of the meat eaten in this country is imported, without even the fairly lax restrictions that exist in GB. If you thought bullfights were cruel, you should see a Spanish abbatoir!

There is a further continuum with blood sports. I don't see any logical difference between killing something for the fun of killing it, and paying someone else to kill it for you for the pleasure of eating it.

I agree that humans are a part of the food chain, and that we evelved eating meat (on a more occasional basis than now, very probably). But uniquely among the animal kingdom, we have control over our instincts, behaviours and lifestyle. And just because we evolved with a behaviour, it does not mean that it is right and productive now. Plenty of sociobiologists think that polygamy was a key component in early human behaviour.

Arguments in favour of eating meat essentially boil down to
1. Habit. I've always done it.
2. It tastes nice.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,1151512,00.html

Are you for or against vegetarianism, and why. Are there any veggies on the board and do you feel better for it or not . owdlad.

it's not a for or against question.
I'm not against vegetarianism. I'm not one myself and haven't seen a valid argument yet to persuade me to change, but I have no objection other people being one.

It tastes nice, and provides an important part of our diet (yes, we can replace it, at some effort). So why shouldn't I eat meat.

Killing something in a humane way means without needless cruelty and suffering. Ie, as quickly and painlessley as possible.

people may think that this is wrong but i have voted yes it is acceptable to kill animals for food. and yes for anyone that may already know this, i am a vegitarian. in the end of the day, just because i choose not to eat meat myself, that is a personal preferance and i know it would not suit a lot of people who think a lot differently to me. animals have always been killed for food so i cant see why it would ever change, and other animals eat meat, humans have the same need to survive.

why dont i eat meat?... because i cant stomach the idea of putting something in my mouth that once had a life, feelings and a head!!!

I agree, it's a badly worded poll really - I'm a vegan, but I don't think it's wrong to kill for food - it's the manner in which we do it which disgusts me.

This brings to mind the question of why people are vegetarians. Is it because they don't believe in killings animals or just a dietary choice.

If it is the former, how many of these people are using by products? probably quite a lot. That, I think is hypocritical.

If they do not use these products they have my respect.

If it is a dietary choice, fair play, as meat can be very difficult to digest and can hang around in your intestine for weeks and create an "off" smell to the opposite sex.

To be a vegetarian or vegan and obtain the right balance dietary speaking can be an almost scientific study. I take my hat off to all that do this well.

Basically, so the theory goes, we are either hunter gatherer or farmer types. Live for the day or plan ahead.

well people who dont drink milk are unlikely to have heart attacks and to get 100% calcium RDA from milk you have to have nearly a litre which is also 30g of fat. Milk is one of the biggest killers in this part of the world, your probably all disagreeing with me but theres enough scientif evidence its also been linked to 11 medical conditions. I know animal fats are bad for you, but am not sure if meat is bad for you i thing its just an ethical question whether people want to eat meat because of the treatment and way of killing.

I've been a vegetarian for most of my life and I suppose that my reasons are mostly environmental. The beef industry contributes to mass deforestation, and the amount of land needed to graze animals can feed a mere fraction of the people from the same space farmed with crops.

People say 'we've always done it, it goes back hundreds of years'

So does sending small children down mines.

I am a vegetarian by personal choice, because I don't feel the need to kill and animal for my food or to pay someone else to kill an animal for my food. I don't tell other people whether or not to eat animals.

I do however draw a distinction between killing an animal for food and killing animals purely for enjoyment ... ie fox hunting, badger baiting, cock fighting, angling etc.. which to me seem to be rather sadistic pastimes, causing unnecesary suffering.

Originally posted by f_g
well people who dont drink milk are unlikely to have heart attacks and to get 100% calcium RDA from milk you have to have nearly a litre which is also 30g of fat. Milk is one of the biggest killers in this part of the world, your probably all disagreeing with me but theres enough scientif evidence its also been linked to 11 medical conditions. I know animal fats are bad for you, but am not sure if meat is bad for you i thing its just an ethical question whether people want to eat meat because of the treatment and way of killing.

how do semi-skimmed and skimmed fit into this?

Is milk only unhealthy because of the amount of fat or are there other factors i'm unaware of?

People say 'we've always done it, it goes back hundreds of years'


It certainly goes back a lot longer than hundreds, but that's not much of an argument. And tradition isn't either.

Liking the taste and it providing an important part of our diet, they are better arguments.

My opinion is this. If I could rear my own animals and feed them what I choose, and make sure they have a healthy happy life, then slaughter them myself in a humane manner then I have no problem with eating meat.
I was brought up on a farm and have worked on the farm for over 10 years. It has upset some of my friends that when they stay for a Sunday lunch my mother introduces the joint by his name!
Aren't we marvelously lucky to be able to have the choice of what we eat considering the number of people in the world who do not have enough to eat, and certainly don't have the luxury of choice we have?
I don't consider myself to be vegetarian, but eat meat only once or twice a month because I'm so fussy about where it comes from and how it was treated in life.

Of course eating meat is wrong! What is wrong with you people? It must be wrong.....cos Morrissey said, see.

tut tut.

and morrisey is who?

try http://milksucks.com/milkKills.html

I read your links f_g. Interesting, but it comes over as 'scare science', i'd be more inclined to change my diet when I see something in an independant scientific journal that has no agenda.

My milk intake is relatively low anyway, I put it in coffee, and have a glass of it maybe once a fortnight.

Originally posted by Cyclone
and morrisey is who?

Morrissey as in the singer of the smiths who penned the lyrics "Meat is Murder"

I was saying it in jest.,..when I ask most of my veggie mates why they're veggie...they usually put the moral argument then cough and mumble..."er...and...yeah, cos Morrissey said"

I am veggie by defualt as I live on "meat" products that come from Tesco in blue and white packaging.....the burgers are best, something like 15% water, 82% rusk, and 3% meat extract.

come on....tell me that doesnt make you hungry!

lol, sorry my musical knowledge is sadly lacking.

Interesting link, f_g, but surely it's not milk that's the problem here - it's the cows who've been genetically manipulated with growth hormones.

I'd hope that milk from an 'ordinary' dairy cow is quite safe.

Heres something to put you off fish..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/chemicalworld/story/0,14534,1214371,00.html

well it is the same with the milk you drink everyday, why not try cutting it out for a few weeks