Bit of a rant I know, but I've got to say it...

It's really edited to "jolly well put me all of a jellywobble" (apologies RPG) how many kids these days are saying and writing should of when they mean should have. Check out the texts sent to the live late night coverage of I'm a Celeb or Big Brother if you've never noticed it before. I'm guessing that as opposed to being a trendy street slang thing, it's actually a sign of how little they read?

I presume that one person, having missheard the phrase a couple of years ago, started saying it to their mates; they in turn picked up on it and (not knowing any different because they'd never come across it in a book, never having read anything more advanced than Smash Hits), started saying it when talking to their mates.

The thing that's really tiddled [can't say ****** on the forum] me off though is hearing it being said by a kids tv presenter and one of the high-flying executive types fighting it out to become Sir Alan Sugar's assistant on BBC2's "The Apprentice".

There. Rant finished. Just read it back and it reads like a letter to Points of View. Think I'll phone Rony Robinson on Radio Sheffield. I'll mention me wheelie bin collection as well. And me gout.

I watched Trisha today (K shudders at the memory), and there was a girl on there who had a crack-addict boyfriend who kept stealing everything from her house. She kept on saying that he stole things "and solt them"

I wanted to physically harm her by the end of the segment! Perhaps that's a bit strong; maybe just spitting on her would have been okay :P :thumbsup:

K x

They say language is constantly evolving. It seems to be driven by dimwit schoolkids. Prps wll al 1 dy tlk lyk thz? God I'm depressed. Should of solt my dictionary years ago and lived in blissful ignorance.

Originally posted by Ant
They say language is constantly evolving. It seems to be driven by dimwit schoolkids. Prps wll al 1 dy tlk lyk thz? God I'm depressed. Should of solt my dictionary years ago and lived in blissful ignorance.

I know I get very anal about it! Check this (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28272) out if you want to have a myocardial infarction!

K x

How did I miss that thread? That's a classic. Thanks for brightening my day. I wouldn't say you were being anal - just trying to cling on to the basic principles of grammar and spelling. And vowels.

Now if this were my forum (come the revolution), I'd take a stand and do my bit for the english language by banning txt spk. I think it should be written into the Terms of Use that we take the p**s out of anyone attempting to use it. In a very irritating and childish way. Sounding as much like Homer Simpson as we can manage. Now that would be fun. :hihi:

Oh, and this tends to bug me as well:

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :hihi: :thumbsup: :clap: :clap:

... but that's probably just me being a party pooper.

I agree with everything you have said.

IMO, text speak is a useful tool when writing a text message; it shortens words to a level where a conversation can be truncated while still being understandable. Clearly, it costs more money to send longer messages, so I can see the reasoning!

Text speak on here is just damn annoying! The vast majority of people now have broadband or an unlimited tarriff, so IMO, they are just being lazy, or trying to look cool. In fairness, they just look like idiots!

Come the revolution, can I be a Mod :clap: :thumbsup: :hihi:

Just asking!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :hihi: :thumbsup: :clap: :clap:

K x

Come the revolution, can I be a Mod

Corruption would be the norm. Only bribes and sexual favours would interest me. Or bread and butter pudding, of which I'm rather fond.

Originally posted by Ant
Corruption would be the norm. Only bribes and sexual favours would interest me. Or bread and butter pudding, of which I'm rather fond.

Ant,

If you've read any of my other posts, you'll understand that I'm a boy (well, man actually!) Does this offer still count? If not, I really HAVE to change my avatar, as Bread and Butter pudding is an unknown to me!!!

K x

Yes, I know. But the bribes and bread and butter pudding are still on the table.

Will the Bread and Butter pudding get squashed if we use the table for non-food purposes?

I'm not a pedant about grammar and spelling - although as someone who's done a lot of proofreading these common errors jump out at me constantly - and I'm not saying I'm perfect either.

I would point out though, it's not just kids that say "of" when they mean "have". I have a friend who's just turned 50, she's a classroom assistant (!) she doesn't just say it, she types it too ... I've always put it down to her being a Southerner ;)

But it does beg the question, how can people go through an entire educational system and still come out at the other end without even the basics of speech and grammar?

On the thread about closing schools for snow, I did notice one of the teachers used "us" instead of "we". Hopefully, s/he teaches Maths and not English :).

Anne Robinson, she always says "thousant" on the Weakest Link ... why?

Equally bad is axe instead of ask. When I hear someone say "don't axe me", I could happily kick them.

I always tell my sister off for using "txt" speak on the internet......

Personally I rarely say "should have" when I'm talking, it comes out as "shuduv"... but maybe thats down tu mi yorkshir accent?

anyways, text speech is probably the most annoying thing on the net... I dont mind shortening words like 'cus instead of because... but some of the text speech things make no sense because they aren't even easier or quicker to type on a keyboard!

like 4eva... you've got to move up to the numbers and that moving out of the normal typing position is probably the time I could type the "for"... so whats the point? :P

and m8... thats never SEEN a word in it's life...

whenever I'm talking to anyone on the internet they lose my respect the more text they type... like there are lots of girls I talk to that are like 17, 18 and even 19 and they type like retarded 12 year olds... it's very depressing... it's certainly not impressive at all!

Your probably saying "should've" which is a perfectly acceptable way of writing reported speech.

I hate bad spelling and bad grammar. You don't have to be a brainbox to teach yourself the science of your mother tongue.

My partner does it and it drives me crazy. He's a southerner too!
As an about-to-resign teacher I feel that the majority of my students who actually write 'of' rather than 'have' really do not know any better. They write as they speak. One of the recent gems I encountered was 'eqspres' which looks rather like a french word but was actually the best effort of a 12 yr old writing 'express'.
I see it a lot on here and find it a shame that the education system cannot do better in teaching.... but this leads to many other comments I shan't make on this thread.

People who say "somethink" rather than "something" drive me insane too!

K x

Originally posted by Zebra
One of the recent gems I encountered was 'eqspres' which looks rather like a french word but was actually the best effort of a 12 yr old writing 'express'.

I once had a message left on my desk that a member of staff was not coming into work because they had "sisstytes"

I racked my brain for ages wondering what this terrible illness could be, but was not prepared to laugh as much as I did whe the person who wrote the note told me that they had meant "cystitis". :D

K x

Not being funny, but I dont really think we should be picking on people that cant spell properly.

Please leave them alone.

Originally posted by rubydazzler
I'm not a pedant about grammar and spelling - although as someone who's done a lot of proofreading these common errors jump out at me constantly - and I'm not saying I'm perfect either.

I would point out though, it's not just kids that say "of" when they mean "have". I have a friend who's just turned 50, she's a classroom assistant (!) she doesn't just say it, she types it too ... I've always put it down to her being a Southerner ;)


I'm no pedant either, but in my long, long ago days at school I would have picked up some red ink for "it's not just kids that say"; which properly should be "it's not just kids who say", - children being people....well some of 'em anyway :D

Similarly "it isn't" was preferred to "it's not",which I feel is a little pedantic. More an aquired pattern of speech than good or bad grammar.

Sadly neither universities nor employers these days seem to care much about literacy. I read somewhere that some universtities even provide remedial courses in basic English for first year students :P

Not being funny, but I dont really think we should be picking on people that cant spell properly.

No offence Angelus, we all spell the odd word wrong, but why can't people consult a dictionary for the harder words? Is that too much to ask? If it looks wrong, it probably is wrong. It's not that hard to open Word up and type the word in to see if it suggests an alternate spelling. Anyone that types "sisstytes" - unless they're dyslexic - deserves a slap round the head with a fresh trout.

I think everyone knows how much I hate bad grammar, spelling and punctuation. The "should of" phrase is one of my all time biggest hates. There is no verb 'to OF'. Please use "should have" or "should've", both verbally and in written form.

BEFORE I write my point of view. I apologize for the post that Kristian kinding pointed out & i'm really embarrased about it now.

Anyway...

My point. I think that the way we write is to do with our accent but can't prove that because I ain't got two different people with accents near me. lol

Also, you don't actually say something you say somethink. When you sing the song Something stupid without thinking about saying something rather than somethink. You say somethink. So why don't we just say spell something with a K. Ask the nearest person to sing it if you don't believe me.

You probly don't understand me but I tryed. lol
:confused:

x x msnutty x x

Originally posted by msnutty

My point. I think that the way we write is to do with our accent but can't prove that because I ain't got two different people with accents near me. lol

I doubt it. I think it has more to do with how well educated you are in the field of English language. How much you listened during English lessons at school Vs how much time you spent making paper planes and writing on the desk.



Originally posted by msnutty


Also, you don't actually say something you say somethink. When you sing the song Something stupid without thinking about saying something rather than somethink. You say somethink.

Speak for yourself by all means, but don't tell almost 10,000 people how they pronounce a word.

Originally posted by ANGELUS
Not being funny, but I dont really think we should be picking on people that cant spell properly.

My sister is dyslexic and I pick on her all the time! She's really bad, so spells everything phonetically but I can't help but find it funny! But then there's stuff I do that she takes the mick out of so it doesn't really matter.

Sorry to contradict you t020, but AIN'T is a non-standard contraction of ... 'am not'... 'are not'...'is not'...'have not'...'has not'

as defined in the Concise English Dictionary.


Edit: How come the sentence in your post, to which I have just replied, has now disappeared? Now I look proper stupid :(

I think I remember t020 retracting the "ain't ain't a word" argument a while back.

Nobody says "somethink" do they? :confused: It's spelt "something" because that's how you say it. It's also two words stitched together, some and thing, and it literally means "some thing".

"Ain't" is an Americanism and is non-standard use of English. I don't like to use it or to see/hear it being used.

Originally posted by t020
"Ain't" is an Americanism and is non-standard use of English. I don't like to use it or to see/hear it being used.

I wasn't giving an opinion on the rights or wrongs of the usage of the word 'ain't'. I was merely commenting on the terms for which 'ain't' is a non-standard contraction of. As opposed to it being a contraction of 'am not' alone as posted, then retracted, by you.

Originally posted by saxon51
I wasn't giving an opinion on the rights or wrongs of the usage of the word 'ain't'. I was merely commenting on the terms for which 'ain't' is a non-standard contraction of. As opposed to it being a contraction of 'am not' alone as posted, then retracted, by you.

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about. :huh: ;)

Originally posted by Ant
They say language is constantly evolving. It seems to be driven by dimwit schoolkids. Prps wll al 1 dy tlk lyk thz? God I'm depressed. Should of solt my dictionary years ago and lived in blissful ignorance.

Very true Ant – Language and accents are constantly evolving. The younger generation today are sounding more like American rap artists. This is a trend right across the country. I listened to an interview on the radio with an up and coming “hip hop” star. This 16 year old girl was born and still lives in the east end of London. I did manage to detect a slight cockney accent.

Originally posted by t020
I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about. :huh: ;)

You would have if the sentence you edited from your post was still there.

Now it is not there, my response to it doesn't make any sense.:(

...and you're not helping my confusion one bit!:suspect: :P

Ugh the "i leant it off so and so" really gets to me, or "i borrowed it her"!! I am always being picked up by my dad for saying "should of", he laughs at me and just says you "should have said should have" not funny at all, but i should speak better english lol.

Originally posted by Kristian
People who say "somethink" rather than "something" drive me insane too!

K x

I know someone who is 32 and says "wiv" instead of "with". I'm sure he is mimicking his 10 year old son.

It does my head in when my sons say "I've just 'lent' someone's stuff". Instead of 'borrowed'.

Now they'll read this and be embarrassed....I hope!

Originally posted by t020
"Ain't" is an Americanism and is non-standard use of English. I don't like to use it or to see/hear it being used.

"Ain't" is widespread in many English dialects and in informal speech and has been for centuries. Lewis Carroll used it in 'Through the Looking-Glass' (1872), and I doubt he'd seen many Roy Rogers films. ;)

Originally posted by Greybeard
I'm no pedant either, but in my long, long ago days at school I would have picked up some red ink for "it's not just kids that say"; which properly should be "it's not just kids who say", - children being people....well some of 'em anyway :D

Similarly "it isn't" was preferred to "it's not",which I feel is a little pedantic. More an aquired pattern of speech than good or bad grammar.

I did SAY I wasn't perfect ...... :D

Originally posted by stevie1957
I know someone who is 32 and says "wiv" instead of "with". I'm sure he is mimicking his 10 year old son.

I get annoyed when people mix up 'learn' and 'borrow' :rant: Drives me crackers!

K x

Originally posted by Greybeard
"Ain't" is widespread in many English dialects and in informal speech and has been for centuries. Lewis Carroll used it in 'Through the Looking-Glass' (1872), and I doubt he'd seen many Roy Rogers films. ;)

Yes, Ain't is something that is wrongly accused of being American... the list is a long one. Another that the grammar Nazis pick on is the construction 'different than', although this was used by Defoe, Addison, Steele, Dickens, Coleridge and Thackeray.

Also, if we are to properly follow the 'rules' of English (although there are no such things, just the rules of a language that died out a thousand years ago that some people think should be applied to English) then we should really say 'you was' when talking about a single person.

Right or wrong, "Ain't" is used widely in southern England. It crops up about 1,000 times in every episode of Eastenders, for example.

You might not like it and think it's stupid or whatever but people changed because of the trends when you where a teeenager so changes can be made now people like me are teenagers.

Let's face it, SOME of you, not all are been selfish. Does it really matter how we speak or write unless you really really need to read there writing.

AAAArrgh - I hope that's a joke with the spelling mistakes.
It is important, it is education. I think it's absolutely tragic that half of our own citizens cannot pass an exam about their mother tongue and furthermore that immigrants, visitors and students frequently have better English than some residents.
It's a disgrace.
Without language rules surely the language itself will change until the local dialect changes beyond recognition to the rest of the country.
I marked some work in school today, 13 year olds who responded to a written question with:

'It wood of been betta if we worked in ar grope.'

Translated as 'It would have been better if we had worked in our group.'
This was from a child for whom English is their first language.
Communication is essential for existence, perhaps we are losing the ability to do it effectively.

P.S. It isn't selfish, PC's have spell checkers, education is free, dictionaries are not expensive. Dyslexia is the one reason I can understand and perhaps not knowing any better or being unfamiliar, some words are rarely written and it's better to have a shot at it than not use it. Typing errors are frequent and normally obvious and never an issue.
Correct spelling is quite simple using 'would have' rather than 'wood of'. Basic literacy such as there, their and they're - if I can do it, why can't others?
Perhaps (Devil's Advocate here) you are the selfish one, expecting others to lower their expectations of language and modern youth and learn to read a non-formal language which is contrary to education standards?
Maybe some people should use their brains to write correctly rather than invent excuses?

Originally posted by msnutty
Does it really matter how we speak or write unless you really really need to read there writing.

I hope that was a deliberate mistake...hee hee

Originally posted by msnutty
You might not like it and think it's stupid or whatever but people changed because of the trends when you where a teeenager so changes can be made now people like me are teenagers.

Let's face it, SOME of you, not all are been selfish. Does it really matter how we speak or write unless you really really need to read there writing.

How can you judge whether or not you 'really need' to read someone's writing? A letter to a friend should be just as carefully written as a job application, in my opinion. If you get into the habit of sloppy writing then you'll never feel confident when it comes to the important messages.

Treat every written word as if a future employer may read it and you can't go far wrong.

Anyone notice how even newsreaders are having problems pronouncing the word secretary these days? There seems to be a randomness about where the 'r' goes.

Originally posted by t020
There is no verb 'to OF'.

Which put in place of the auxilliary verb 'have' renders it even more inexcusable.

I of been
You of been
they of been.....

Originally posted by msnutty
Does it really matter how we speak or write unless you really really need to read there writing.

The whole point of language is communication. If a group of people do not use a common set of communication rules then they cannot communicate. What you have effectively said is that it doesn't matter how people communicate unless you really want to communicate.

Well, unless you never want to communicate with anybody at all, you need to use a shared set of communication rules. This is nothing to do with being a Language Nazi or me forcing my views upon you, but just a universal fact of life.

There's no problem with people using specialised communication amongst other people where they know they share the same specialised communication, whether that be technical jargon or regional dialects. Go to a medical convention and I'd bet most people wouldn't have a clue what people were saying. First time I was in Stirling I couldn't understand the bus driver. But, when attempting to communcate outside the group that you know share your language rules you have to use the language rules of the larger outside group.

Our company was recently recruiting for secretarial staff, a job for which a high standard of English is essential. We had a number of interviewees who had English GCSE grades A or B and not one of them managed to complete a VERY basic test without mistakes. To make it worse, the test was done on a PC with the spell checker active so the mistakes were plain to see!

It pains me to say it, because it makes me feel so very old (I'm only 31)... but the education system seems to be seriously letting people down in the most basic subject!

Originally posted by max
Anyone notice how even newsreaders are having problems pronouncing the word secretary these days? There seems to be a randomness about where the 'r' goes.

You pronounce 'secetary' in a similar manner to 'libary' and 'febury'

Don't get me started on 'vetinarians'...

;)

Also, CongraDulations.

It's got a bloody "T" in it!!!

Originally posted by feargal
Also, CongraDulations.

It's got a bloody "T" in it!!!

That's an Americanism. As more and more American accents are heard on the TV, the substitution of the 'd' sound for the 't' sound is more commonplace.

Nowt funnier than an American saying 'duties' ;)

Originally posted by spiffymonkey
You pronounce 'secetary' in a similar manner to 'libary' and 'febury'


;)

No you don't. It should be pronounced as it's spelt. So should your other 2 examples.

Secretary:

sec·re·tar·y ( P ) Pronunciation Key

Feb·ru·ar·y ( P ) Pronunciation Key

li·brar·y ( P ) Pronunciation Key

That's as good as this forum allows phonetic spelling since the symbols used in the correct phonetic alphabet don't paste into this. Check yourself on dictionary.com though by all means.

And what about the American 'NUCULAR' defense programme?

NUCULAR!!.. What the hell is that?!!

How can N.U.C.L.E.A.R. be pronounced N.U.C.U.L.A.R??:loopy:

And aluminium which Americans frequently seem to say as ALOOMINUM, which, unless they have a product we are lacking, is just crazy.
Since it's frequently foil they are talking about maybe they should have the get-out-of-jail-free pronunciation of tin foil!
Incidentally, I say secretary and library with the r's in but I must admit that I say Febuary.

Originally posted by Zebra
And aluminium which Americans frequently seem to say as ALOOMINUM, which, unless they have a product we are lacking, is just crazy.
Since it's frequently foil they are talking about maybe they should have the get-out-of-jail-free pronunciation of tin foil!
Incidentally, I say secretary and library with the r's in but I must admit that I say Febuary.

actually they spell that one differently as well, and so technically they are pronouncing it correctly (although someone should have told them that they were spelling it wrong a long time ago).

I'm not a good speller by any means, although i find i can spell longer words better than short ones, i still have to say phonitics to myself when trying to read something out, my english schooling, but after almost 40 years in the States i still find myself spelling some things the english way, i have to stop and think which way to spell it.

Check Cheque
Plow Plough
Colour Color ?

Many more!

Originally posted by spiffymonkey
You pronounce 'secetary' in a similar manner to 'libary' and 'febury'

;)

I hope that was a sprat to catch a mackerel Spiffy,- 'cos if it was it worked very well :D

Originally posted by t020
No you don't. It should be pronounced as it's spelt. So should your other 2 examples.


Prize goes to t020 for not knowing that ;) means I'm kidding. I know perfectly well how to pronounce those words, hence the deliberate misspelling.

:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Greybeard
I hope that was a sprat to catch a mackerel Spiffy,- 'cos if it was it worked very well

Yes, it did, didn't it :)

Originally posted by spiffymonkey
Prize goes to t020 for not knowing that ;) means I'm kidding. I know perfectly well how to pronounce those words, hence the deliberate misspelling.

:rolleyes:



Yes, it did, didn't it :)

Oops. :| :D

8) Nah Den Ace....

I was talking to a posh lady who lived at one of those posh flats where the old Wards brewery was. She corrected my pronounciation of the district. She said it was called Eccleshall!

Oh dear!

Regards,

Spacehopper.

Originally posted by Spacehopper
8) Nah Den Ace....

I was talking to a posh lady who lived at one of those posh flats where the old Wards brewery was. She corrected my pronounciation of the district. She said it was called Eccleshall!

Oh dear!

Regards,

Spacehopper.

In which case you were both wrong, it's Sharrow. Ecclesall is several miles further out of town, although you're right about the pronunication..... ace.

I've just finished reading The Great Gatsby. I noticed that on at least three occasions, F. Scott Fitzgerald writes "would of" or "we'd of". Admittedly all three occurred in direct speech. So, what can we deduce from this? Is it that:

(1) There is a verb "to of".

(2) One of the greatest novels in the English language was written by a dunce wot didn't know his English proper.

(3) Fitzgerald had a crap English teacher. Standards were atrocious in them days.

(4) Things were different 80 years ago.

(5) Things are different for <spit> Americans.

(6) Fitzgerald was very subtly trying to point out to us the stupidity of three of his characters.

(7) Minor deviations from standard word usage are a lot less important than certain pedants would have us believe.

(8) They are important, but you can get away with it if you're a genius.

Or something else?

By the way, my copy was printed in 1973, almost 50 years after the books initial 1926 publication. You'd think a decent editor would have spotted the errors given that length of time.

Oh yeah, and speaking of Americans: SO, they speak a slightly different version of the English language. Get over it! It's not as if it causes any major breakdowns in understanding. And a lot of "Americanisms" are actually Englishisms, spellings and pronunciations which America have stuck with ever since the Eighteenth century while their former colonisers have adapted new ways of speaking and spelling.

Adapting new ways of speaking and spelling, now wouldn't that be a shocking thing? Know wot I mean?

Originally posted by Ant
They say language is constantly evolving. It seems to be driven by dimwit schoolkids. Prps wll al 1 dy tlk lyk thz? God I'm depressed. Should of solt my dictionary years ago and lived in blissful ignorance. I blame the footy pundits. GRRR!!! :rant: Football law :loopy: If that'd gone in it would've been a goal :loopy: And all those phrases and sayings they cross over and muddle up regularly. :rant: