Seeing as some people think Britain is all set to become an Islamic state, I thought we might want to discuss whether the the USA is on course to becoming the first Christian Fundamentalist state.

After all, they have a President who asks God for advice on running the country/world, who has prayers every morning with his cabinet and who tells us to beware of 'evil-doers'.

Anyway, I'm not having a go at Americans, just starting a debate............

You may want to add an 'already happened' option!

Originally posted by sham71
Seeing as some people think Britain is all set to become an Islamic state, I thought we might want to discuss whether the the USA is on course to becoming the first Christian Fundamentalist state.

After all, they have a President who asks God for advice on running the country/world, who has prayers every morning with his cabinet and who tells us to beware of 'evil-doers'.

Anyway, I'm not having a go at Americans, just starting a debate............
You also have the capital awash with right-wing christians who are lobbying to have the secular laws of the country reinforce their definition of right and wrong...or in other words to force their religious values on others. Bush has already made it clear that he wants to define abortion in religious terms and funnel welfare dollars through christian charities.

It's a very scary possibility, one that looks increasingly likely.

What's also frightened me recently is the way that the UK seems to be following along similar lines. Admittedly we're _way_ behind the US on this, and I don't think (I hope) it will reach the same level here, but the type of "moral outrage" in evidence recently over things such as the Jerry Springer opera make it seem as if the tide of tolerance has reached high water in this country and is now retreating.

My favourite quote on Geoge Bush talking to God, from an interview with Sam Harris (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/feature/-/542154/102-5766392-6376168):

The President of the United States has claimed, on more than one occasion, to be in dialogue with God. Now, if he said that he was talking to God through his hairdryer, this would precipitate a national emergency. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ludicrous or more offensive."

I imagine that when he was an alcoholic, the only time GWB talked to God was on the big white telephone!!

Originally posted by sham71
I imagine that when he was an alcoholic, the only time GWB talked to God was on the big white telephone!!
It's damn certain he didn't find god at the bottom of all those oil wells he dug!

Hey Georgie, maybe he's hiding in Iran!

I would have thought that given America's strong Jewish population who are very powerful in terms of voting power, I'd think a Christian Fundamentalist state would be highly unlikely.

Originally posted by DaBouncer
I would have thought that given America's strong Jewish population who are very powerful in terms of voting power, I'd think a Christian Fundamentalist state would be highly unlikely.
I don't think a fundamentalist state in the same terms as the musilm states that exist in the Middle East is possible in the US, but the sheer amount of power that the christian right can muster is either very impressive or very scary depending on how you view the situation personally.

Originally posted by DaBouncer
I would have thought that given America's strong Jewish population who are very powerful in terms of voting power, I'd think a Christian Fundamentalist state would be highly unlikely.

Only 1% of the population are jewish.

"Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10% (2002 est.)"

Source : The CIA World fact book (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#People)

Nomme

A christian fundamentalist state?

What, exactly, do you mean?

OK maybe I mistyped what I meant.
Strong jewish population wasn't meant to mean in terms of numbers, but the power that portion of the US hold.

E.g. It might only be that 1% of the actual people in the USA are jewish, but that 1% control or are in high powered jobs to control the way votes are cast and/or where government interest lies.

With that in mind, the USA becoming a state as suggested above is remote.

Originally posted by nomme
Source : The CIA World fact book (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html#People)


that is such a good site.

Comparative size of Monaco - "about three times the size of The Mall in Washington, DC "

Originally posted by DaBouncer
I would have thought that given America's strong Jewish population who are very powerful in terms of voting power, I'd think a Christian Fundamentalist state would be highly unlikely.
Christian Fundamentalists are strong supporters of the Jewish cause as they believe, from interpreting the Bible, that the Revelations / end times / apocalypse will only happen when the state of Israel has been fully re-established. Hence the USs almost unilateral support for Israel.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
A christian fundamentalist state?

What, exactly, do you mean?


I suppose I mean where the division between the state and the church disappears.

Where legislation is based on 'Christian morality' and the government is run by 'born-again' Christians with total belief in the word of the bible.

Originally posted by sham71
I suppose I mean where the division between the state and the church disappears.

Where legislation is based on 'Christian morality' and the government is run by 'born-again' Christians with total belief in the word of the bible.

Probably be a police state before there are forced prayers every morning, may be one day the one true religion will be established and every one will be happy.

I think Christianity has gone through its ruling and murdering stage, the problem is GWB and his team america trying to drag a few countrys out of the darkage and into the now, problem is I think these coutrys are happy where they are.

Or it could just be oil.

Originally posted by Carmine
I don't think a fundamentalist state in the same terms as the musilm states that exist in the Middle East is possible in the US, but the sheer amount of power that the christian right can muster is either very impressive or very scary depending on how you view the situation personally.

Exactly.

I am in the US at the moment, and i have to tell you it's very weird, a totally different experience to my last 3 years here.

The Evangelical groups have been VERY vocal since the election. It's estimated that 40% of the people who voted for Bush are part of the Christian right. They are very vocal, very active and very scary.

They believe in the Rapture. The comment on a Jewish state is Israel is exactly right. That has to be true for the rapture to be true. Censorship is all over at the moment. They even accused Sponge Bob of being a gay recruiting tool. There are states that have banned sex toys, states where they are attacking Evolution in the curriculum.

My wife works at a school and because the religious parents (of all denominations) are kicking up a fuss they cannot celebrate any holidays at all. There are reports of teachers scared to teach evolution in fear of causing trouble with the School boards.

The word "Liberal" is under attack.

There is not a day that passes without some media scandal where people are found to be paid by the neo-cons to propagate propaganda. The spin here in the media is just crazy, you think Blair has been bad? He's small fry compared to Rove.

Not trying to exaggerate, but it really feels like I am in the middle of some for of mass delusion. The country is so divided between Red and Blue states and the two ideologies most Americans have been brought up with. (i have never been so convinced that Democracies need more that 2 valid parties).

Bush split the country in two using Republican specialty "wedge issues", it's almost like two warring factions... everybody digging in the trenches for their individual ideology.

Scary times IMHO.

But i don't beleive they will become a fundamentalist state. I beleive that this will see the downfall of the Conservative movement, in much the same way as Thatcher did that in the UK.

You must be waiting in fear for Bush's new appointments to the Supreme Court.

Apparently he was going to ask Jesus himself, until someone told him he was dead.

(that was anti-Bush not anti-Christian, before anyone complains)

Well yeah i, but i really don't think Roe vs Wade (banning abortion) or protections for gays are really in danger. The constiutution protects both. Bush has ****** off the Evangelicals by giving up on his pledges to them (Gay marriage ban and abortion ban).

So i kind of hope thats the way it stays. He looses his support, he is still in the mood to further the neo-con agenda (deal with Iran, destroy Social Security, give big business as much freedom as possible etc). So i hope he continues and people finally get what he has been doing. The media are doing and excellent job of protecting him, the media in America is the worst i have ever come across. For the last 30 years a huge Conservative echo chamber has been developed, and it works very well.

BTW i am even more anti-christian now than ever. And i have no problem admitting it. They are working off some weird irrelevant moral code and trying to push their values on us, more than ever before. All the time supporting war, they will fight for the right of an unborn child, but once you are born they will send you to war to kill and destroy. Evil.

Originally posted by back2basics
Well yeah i, but i really don't think Roe vs Wade (banning abortion) or protections for gays are really in danger. The constiutution protects both. Bush has ****** off the Evangelicals by giving up on his pledges to them (Gay marriage ban and abortion ban).

So i kind of hope thats the way it stays. He looses his support, he is still in the mood to further the neo-con agenda (deal with Iran, destroy Social Security, give big business as much freedom as possible etc). So i hope he continues and people finally get what he has been doing. The media are doing and excellent job of protecting him, the media in America is the worst i have ever come across. For the last 30 years a huge Conservative echo chamber has been developed, and it works very well.

BTW i am even more anti-christian now than ever. And i have no problem admitting it. They are working off some weird irrelevant moral code and trying to push their values on us, more than ever before. All the time supporting war, they will fight for the right of an unborn child, but once you are born they will send you to war to kill and destroy. Evil.

I have to say I'm having a hard time staying neutral to the church too. I'll never hate Christianity itself - just like Islam and other major religions it is based on a good moral structure, etc. But the Catholic church has 'got my goat' on so many issues for years, and now the increasing evangelical churches.

I think it's extreme to say that the US will become a Christian theocracy any time soon, I mean this is even rare in the middle east for Islam, which is regarded as being far more religion-based. If it did become a theocracy, the constitution would be scrapped, abortion, divorce and many other of what we regard as civil liberties would be illegal.

Thing is, their fundamentalism isn't really fundamentalism. The term actually means a literal interpretation of the whole of the holy book, which would mean, for one, believing that the 10th generation of an unfathered child would go to hell for that reason, fig trees should be cursed for not bearing fruit out of season (aah, my favourite Bible story. good old vengeful Jesus), those who 'dash children against the rocks' are blessed.....etc

Originally posted by noseyrosie
Thing is, their fundamentalism isn't really fundamentalism. The term actually means a literal interpretation of the whole of the holy book, which would mean, for one, believing that the 10th generation of an unfathered child would go to hell for that reason, fig trees should be cursed for not bearing fruit out of season (aah, my favourite Bible story. good old vengeful Jesus), those who 'dash children against the rocks' are blessed.....etc

It would also make the consumption of prawns a sin, surely on a par with homosexuality. See http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/ for details. I never understood why Bush and his cronies weren't a little hotter on that one.

Here's a letter which really puts the fun into fundamentalism:

Dear ___________________,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s law. I have learned a great deal from you and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God’s Laws and how to follow them:

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not to Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states that he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that, even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this? Are there "degrees" of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them (Lev. 24:10-16)? Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws (Lev. 20:14)?

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.

Originally posted by noseyrosie
I think it's extreme to say that the US will become a Christian theocracy any time soon, ...

Thing is, their fundamentalism isn't really fundamentalism. The term actually means a literal interpretation of the whole of the holy book, which would mean, for one, believing that the 10th generation of an unfathered child would go to hell for that reason, fig trees should be cursed for not bearing fruit out of season (aah, my favourite Bible story. good old vengeful Jesus), those who 'dash children against the rocks' are blessed.....etc

I agree. I doubt the US will ever become a Christian state, but right-wing Christians do wield great influence over US domestic and foreign policy.

What is worrying is that the Christian right have absolutely no idea how to live as real Christians should.

On one hand they boast of worshipping Christ as the Prince of Peace and Saviour of the World while at the same time they support George Bush in his near-evangelical zeal to kill the Arabs of the Middle East (and let's face it, the Arabs have been living in the Middle East far longer than the white-skinned, blue-eyed adaptation of Jesus Christ).

PS: The poll should have an option for 'Right-Wing Partly Christian State'

The fundamentalist right in the USA appear to use Christianity as an excuse to excerpt wealth, power and influence on the promise of everlasting life.

So, it's business as usual for religion eh?

:suspect:

its a bit disappointing not to hear from some of our other American contributors. They tell us WE are turning into an Islamic country but seem to be steering clear of debates on their own country.

Anyway, thanks to back2basics for restoring my faith in the silent majority of sane people in the USA.

Originally posted by sham71
its a bit disappointing not to hear from some of our other American contributors. They tell us WE are turning into an Islamic country but seem to be steering clear of debates on their own country.

Yes...Right-Wing, Holier-Than-Thou Christian Fundamentalism does appeal to white people with a superiority complex and an inability to think criticially for themselves.

So just where are those American contributors. They aren't usually this quiet :D

Originally posted by sham71
Anyway, thanks to back2basics for restoring my faith in the silent majority of sane people in the USA.
I always wonder how the loons get into power in the USA; because all the US citizens I meet are polite, intelligent and open-minded...do the lunatics not travel abroad?

Remember, we only call those who float to the top the "cream of society" because we're nice...other things float that are far closer to the truth of most leaders.

Originally posted by Carmine
I always wonder how the loons get into power in the USA; because all the US citizens I meet are polite, intelligent and open-minded...do the lunatics not travel abroad?


I think you are right, the open minded Americans have generally travelled and seen the real world (as opposed to the Fox-world).

I can think of one lunatic who has travelled abroad though - I think he is in Slovakia today. Maybe it will do GWB some good too!!

Originally posted by Carmine
do the lunatics not travel abroad?


IMHO that is part of it. Looking at the polls you will find the bigger cities and populous areas all are more to the center or center left. Better education, more money, more of a mixture of people. They voted against Bush.

Then we have the Red States, more rural, more working class (who BTW Bush's policies hurt the most, which take you back to the media protecting him) and less traveled.

Its ironic these people voted on moral values, and protectionism and tax reduction. You won't get any terrorists hitting the biggest ketchup bottle in the World; they will target the big cities, the big financial areas. NY, Chicago, LA all of who did not believe Bush is doing a good job. Also the moral values, when you look at the figures, Evangelicals and red states have higher divorce rates, higher instances of abuse, violence etc. It seems the red states have projected their own problems on the rest of America and are worried about a terrorist attack which will never happen on their soil. They were also worst hit by the latest budget proposals. Many projects were cut, that helped farmers and people in poverty (more poverty in the red states as well). So they have been shooting themselves in the foot, for what appears to be very little indeed.

It can be argued that America is a theocracy now. Religion is pushing policy to a certain extent. It has been pushing policy for quiet some time.

America IMHO will split before it becomes a fundamentalist state. The blue states basically pay for the upkeep of the red. Government subsidies are much higher in red states and under Bush the gap got wider. There are reasons, red states are high in farming and manufacturing (oh and Oil), and we need our food, and farming is not really that profitable anywhere in the developed World. There are lobby groups wanting to split LA or NY away from the rest of America, only small, they stand no chance and I do not see it happening, but there is a movement.

What I think some people are realizing is the red states are pushing policy that they want on states that do not need or want that policy. If the red states try to alter the constitution, I think we will have a real issue. American states can have their own laws, but when a group tries to force their opinions on the whole of America you will see people in uproar.

b2b, I'm hoping you are a multi millionaire who went to Harvard and dodged the draft for Vietnam.

Maybe then you can stand for President and sort the country out!!

The real god in the US is money, and it's acquisition is helped enormously by belonging to the right (or even extreme right) Christian club.

Christianity in the US seems to have become a universal kind of 'beggar-thy-neigbour' free-masonry that is now essential to political and financial success. How long I wonder will it be before it's impossible to get a worthwhile job without having been baptised and confirmed in an approved 'church'.

It's pretty hard to judge from here, where we view religious conviction in our politicians as a form of eccentricity or even as a manifestation of hypocrisy that is the essential quality of a politician anyway. :D ;)