I have just read this article and wondered what other people think:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4282257.stm

Personally i am a vegetarian and have always said that i would try to bring my children (not that i have any yet) up veggie. However if they wanted to eat meat i wouldn't mind.
I have always though being a vegan is possible but is much more difficult that being veggie and requires more planning and nutritional skills. However I think it would be very difficult to bring a chlid up vegan as they could miss out on vital nutrients easily.

I think it's like the other attributes that make a good parent; you should raise the children in line with your own moral values until a time when they are wise enough to form their own.

I am a vegearian, but am not the kind of person to inflict my views on others. I will happily inform people of vegetarianism if they are interested, but I don't get on my soapbox about it.

I would bet that kids raised on a good vegetarian diet would be far healthier than kids whose parents take them to MacDonalds frequently, and give them too much sugar, salt and saturated fat!

K x

Consult your doctor or a dietician. It is possible, but not usually advisable. Of course, persuading kids to eat what you've decided is good for them is another matter, so even if you have a comprehensive diet sheet - play it by ear and be prepared to give a little (but that goes for any rule you've pre-determined about kids)

Good luck, and don't be tempted to let your principles over-rule what's best for your child ;)

well better than telling parents to feed there kids cheese strings which contain calcium but humans can not digest the calcium in this form. The goverment gets money from the milk industry so its hardly going to anounce that its bad for people

I weaned my son as a vegan and it did him no harm.

As a baby, he had very bad intollerances to dairy products and eggs. I was at the time (but not now) a vegetarian. His diet consisted of all home made foods, lots of pureed fruit and veg, pulses, beans, tofu, cereals and things such as soya milk, yoghurt and cheese. I consulted my GP and health visitor about his diet but they had no experience what-so-ever of raising a vegan child, so could offer me no advice at all. All they said was my son was perfectly healthy, his development was normal and they had no issue with it at all.

After all, what could be more healthy for a develping child than home made food with no additives, sugar or salt? His food was cooked fresh and not full of fillers that are often used in pre-made babyfood.

He is now 7, can eat dairy and eggs and chooses to eat meat also.

I am mainly vegetarian, but not strictly. I don't eat meat at home because I don't like not knowing where it has come from, it is expensive and I generally just don't like it much! I also mainly use soya milk and yoghurt, but when I am out I will eat meat, and sometimes enjoy it!

When I was growing up, I was not allowed sweets at all, and only had milk, fruit juice and water to drink. Wasn't allowed cereals with sugar, only thigs like wheetabix and BranFlakes. We didn't have all that much red meat, but did have lamb occasionally, and had chicken, pork, and fish. At the time, me and my brother didn't understand why we couldn't have the things our friends had, but I am thankful now.

Kristian is absolutely right, that bringing a child up as a vegetarian has to be better than feeding them McDonalds all the time.

Personally, I think I will try and eat a bit more meat when I have kids, because I don't think it is easy to get them to eat things you don't. I would try and give them a varied, healthy and balanced diet, and if they don't want to eat meat that is fine.

Originally posted by FetishFairy
I weaned my son as a vegan and it did him no harm.

As a baby, he had very bad intollerances to dairy products and eggs. I was at the time (but not now) a vegetarian. His diet consisted of all home made foods, lots of pureed fruit and veg, pulses, beans, tofu, cereals and things such as soya milk, yoghurt and cheese. I consulted my GP and health visitor about his diet but they had no experience what-so-ever of raising a vegan child, so could offer me no advice at all. All they said was my son was perfectly healthy, his development was normal and they had no issue with it at all.

After all, what could be more healthy for a develping child than home made food with no additives, sugar or salt? His food was cooked fresh and not full of fillers that are often used in pre-made babyfood.

He is now 7, can eat dairy and eggs and chooses to eat meat also.

This is what I was tryng to say, but with less eloquence or experience!

It sounds to me like you made perfect choices!

K x

Originally posted by beckyaa
I am mainly vegetarian, but not strictly. I don't eat meat at home because I don't like not knowing where it has come from, it is expensive and I generally just don't like it much! I also mainly use soya milk and yoghurt, but when I am out I will eat meat, and sometimes enjoy it!

When I was growing up, I was not allowed sweets at all, and only had milk, fruit juice and water to drink. Wasn't allowed cereals with sugar, only thigs like wheetabix and BranFlakes. We didn't have all that much red meat, but did have lamb occasionally, and had chicken, pork, and fish. At the time, me and my brother didn't understand why we couldn't have the things our friends had, but I am thankful now.

Kristian is absolutely right, that bringing a child up as a vegetarian has to be better than feeding them McDonalds all the time.

Personally, I think I will try and eat a bit more meat when I have kids, because I don't think it is easy to get them to eat things you don't. I would try and give them a varied, healthy and balanced diet, and if they don't want to eat meat that is fine.

In fairness Beckyaa, I'm not strictly vegetarian either. I eat quite a lot of fish, and don't abstain from dairy, although I don't consume much.

I remember reading something that said to abstain from animal fat COMPLETELY was really bad for you, and could cause seroius depression. As a result, I have some toast with butter on once each week. Yum!!

In essence I eat a really sensible diet (apart from alcohol consumption. :blush: ) I almost always get my five-a-day fruit and veg, take multi-vitamin supplements, flax oil (look it up 'cos it's FANTASTIC) St John's Wort, to name but a few. I consider I can still make improvements, and worry how most folk are carrying on!

K x

Originally posted by Kristian
I would bet that kids raised on a good vegetarian diet would be far healthier than kids whose parents take them to MacDonalds frequently, and give them too much sugar, salt and saturated fat!

It's funny how the opposite of vegitarianism is McDonalds junky. At least, to a veggie it is.

I'm pretty sure that a kid raised on meat 'n' two veg, or a proper fish dinner (not fish and chips) gets far more nutritional value than veggies + supplements. It's also easier.

There are more ways to eat meat than to just fry it up or mulch it into a Big Mac!

I just find it easier to eat anything and everything rather than fanny about with vitamin tablets and other suppliments, which camn be realy bad for you too.

In the unlikely event that I found myself looking after a child I would give them meat, as from a nutritional point of view it's good for you, if at a later date they decided not to eat it for moral reasons then thats their decision.

I was about to say the same but you beat me to it spiffy.

Given that the 'research' was carried out by the research arm of the US Department of Agriculture (which has very strong ties with the US Meat and Dairy industries) it's unsurprising that it has concluded meat (and to a latter extent, dairy) are the answer to malnutrition.

It's a spurious claim and very badly carried out, using starving, malnourished children who exist on a diet of poor quality corn and beans becuase they HAVE to is a far cry from vegan and vegetarian diets in the developed world.

The Vegan Society has answers to Prof. Allens claims here (http://www.vegansociety.com/html/)

Originally posted by spiffymonkey
It's funny how the opposite of vegitarianism is McDonalds junky. At least, to a veggie it is.

I'm pretty sure that a kid raised on meat 'n' two veg, or a proper fish dinner (not fish and chips) gets far more nutritional value than veggies + supplements. It's also easier.

There are more ways to eat meat than to just fry it up or mulch it into a Big Mac!

I wasn't suggesting that everyone who eats meat must be unhealthy; I was trying to say that there must be a much bigger problem with kids eating bad diets involving meat, than bad veggie diets!

K x

and protein and carbs need to do stomach acids to digest so when people are eating a burger and a large coke (that will just dilute the stomach acid) the body cant digest the food well. I cant help drinking with meals just a habbit i cant get out of!

You can also read a Viva press release about the 'research' here (http://www.viva.org.uk/mediareleases/pr2005/05-12kids.htm).

also go to www.milksucks.com to find out how much cow puss your putting in your body and how many illnesses (inc cancer) it is linked to but like i said the goverment get money out a dairy

and if you watch adverts for cheese/milk products see how many jokes you find in it, its almost as if there laughing at the people buy in it

"Try frozen desserts like Soy Delicious, Tofutti, Rice Dream"

Sounds horrible.

think is they taste just as good if not better and you dont get loads of flem in your throat when youve eaten it

Originally posted by nick2
"Try frozen desserts like Soy Delicious, Tofutti, Rice Dream"

Sounds horrible.

Actually, they taste like the 'premium' dairy icecreams, but have virtually zero cholesterol and very low in fat/saturated fat. Another good brand is the Swedish Glace range. Sainsbury's also have their own toffee/pecan flavour in their 'Free From' range.

It's the thought of tofu in a desert, bleeuugh !

Originally posted by nick2
It's the thought of tofu in a desert, bleeuugh !

Lol, I know, ordinarily I loathe the stuff - it's spongy yet rubbery and slimy at the same time, try as I might I just cannot acquire a taste for it. :gag:

BUT

For some strange reason it makes really lovely icecreams, Tofutti cuties are delicious - little chocolate wafers (almost like a soft cookie texture) encasing smooth, rich, creamy icecream with little chips of dark chocolate - they are lush!!:D

Well we've been eating meat and consuming dairy products since the year dot (well maybe not quite) and we've managed to last a few years so I think I'll stick with it - bit of cow puss here and there adds to the flavour. If it tastes nice and there's a decent chance I won't drop dead within the week then I'll eat it :)

Prof. Allens study paid for by the National Cattlemen's Beef Association, read the full story here (http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/ncbs_vegan_study.htm) .

Originally posted by Rubysoho
For some strange reason it makes really lovely icecreams, Tofutti cuties are delicious - little chocolate wafers (almost like a soft cookie texture) encasing smooth, rich, creamy icecream with little chips of dark chocolate - they are lush!!:D

I might give it a try then.
Like you said it's such a horrible thing to eat normally, I once had it soaked in soy sause and ginger in some kind of sadistic chinese dish at a mates house, god it was awfull, but, being the perfect guest I ate it all, and even said what a "different" flavour it had.

and threw-up in a wheelie bin on my way home.

the cheese style spread its really nice to! and if you havnt tried soya milk and dont like the thought of getting the non flavour version try alpros chocolate soya milk, its high in fiber aswell

Originally posted by f_g
also go to www.milksucks.com to find out how much cow puss your putting in your body and how many illnesses (inc cancer) it is linked to but like i said the goverment get money out a dairy

and if you watch adverts for cheese/milk products see how many jokes you find in it, its almost as if there laughing at the people buy in it

the problem is a site with a name like that clearly has an agenda to push, just as much as the meat industry.

How much money do the government really make from dairy, is it enough to even register on their radar? They probably made more from the single speed camera in Nottingham that has raked in £4.6million in 5 years.

Originally posted by f_g
the cheese style spread its really nice to! and if you havnt tried soya milk and dont like the thought of getting the non flavour version try alpros chocolate soya milk, its high in fiber aswell

my main problem with soya milk is that you can't put it in tea, it goes all clumpy and horrible.

but milks bad for humans full stop its not disigned for humans and we cant digest it. Theses lots of sites about it

http://www.formerfatguy.com/articles/dont-drink-milk.asp

http://members.tripod.com/~josquin/milk.htm

my main problem with soya milk is that you can't put it in tea

i have it in tea and coffee and it doesnt go clumpy allthough when i first used to use it in coffee i remember it doing so.

Originally posted by f_g
but milks bad for humans full stop its not disigned for humans and we cant digest it. Theses lots of sites about it

http://www.formerfatguy.com/articles/dont-drink-milk.asp

http://members.tripod.com/~josquin/milk.htm

that's not quite true is it. Afterall, caucasians have an enzyme that specifically exists to digest cow milk....

I think they might have refined soya milk a little lately as it is much better in tea and coffee than it used to be, also to help stop it curdling don't pour it into a boiling hot drink - let the drink cool down slightly.

Oh Nick2 - good effort, I can only manage 3 small pieces of Tofu max before my gag reflex begins to kick in, don't know how you got through an entire meal - my hat goes off to you (seriously, well done mate!):clap:

Originally posted by Cyclone
that's not quite true is it. Afterall, caucasians have an enzyme that specifically exists to digest cow milk....

.....which begins to diminish after toddler/early-childhood.

, caucasians have an enzyme that specifically exists to digest cow milk

most people over 8 cant digest milk because the enzyme is not there
over 75% of the population suffer from lactose intolerance. 90% of asians dont produce the lactase enzyme.

Now i'm just confused! i think i'll stick to eating what i'm eating (veggie). the major thing that seems to come out of all the dicussion is that processed food is bad?
On the subject of tofu the only places that can cook it so its nice are chinese resturants. I've tried and failed to cook it myself it always tastes of nothing however much oil/soy sauce/ spices etc i put on it.

Originally posted by Sal22
On the subject of tofu the only places that can cook it so its nice are chinese resturants. I've tried and failed to cook it myself it always tastes of nothing however much oil/soy sauce/ spices etc i put on it.

I'm glad it's not just me, and that there are plenty of other people who have problems cooking tofu! No matter what I do to it, or what type of tofu I use, it's just horrible. But when I have had it abroad and in restaurants it is nice! :confused:

Originally posted by beckyaa
I'm glad it's not just me, and that there are plenty of other people who have problems cooking tofu! No matter what I do to it, or what type of tofu I use, it's just horrible. But when I have had it abroad and in restaurants it is nice! :confused:

The cauldron foods pre-marinated tofu is nice, try that one.

There was a thread on 'how do I cook Tofu' and I got told off for suggesting it was horrid :confused:

Originally posted by f_g
most people over 8 cant digest milk because the enzyme is not there
over 75% of the population suffer from lactose intolerance. 90% of asians dont produce the lactase enzyme.

Unless you happen to be white.

Lactose intolerance is an inability to digest lactose, a milk sugar. People who lack the enzyme lactase, which is normally produced in the small intestine, are unable to break down lactose into a form the body can absorb. Undigested lactose passes intact into the colon, where bacteria ferment it, producing gases. The undigested lactose also draws water into the colon, which can cause diarrhea. People who are deficient in lactase or in sufficient amounts of the enzyme may suffer discomfort when they drink milk and eat other dairy products, including ice cream and cheese.

This condition is widespread. It is estimated that 5 percent to 15 percent of the Caucasian population and more than 80 percent of people of African or Asian descent are affected. People of Northern European ancestry are least likely to be lactose intolerant. Researchers don't know why, but lactase production in people of African, Asian and Native American descent declines sharply with age. Certain gastrointestinal conditions such as celiac disease and inflammatory bowel disease can reduce lactase production.

but lactase production in people of African, Asian and Native American descent declines sharply with age

I woudl imagine thats because (for some African tribes anyway) milk is one of their staple foods.

Milk thru' lactose intolerance/allergies is the cause of many physiological illnesses and complaints.

For those that do not suffer intolerance/allergy they are still consuming a product that is full of growth hormones, antibiotics, pesticides, dioxins, cholesterol and saturated fat.

The only milk that is inherently compatible with human biology is human breast milk, and that is only intended for babies and infants.

Humans are the ONLY mammal that not only continues to consume milk past childhood thru' adolescence and into adulthood but also the ONLY mammal that consume's the milk of another species.

Be it from a cow, sheep, goat, pig, rat, or ass, that milk is only biologically suitable for that species offspring not for us.

for all those people that thing milks great for them why dont you not consume it for a week or 2 or maybe a month. I was told it was bad for me but thought it cant be its got calcium etc. untill i stopped having it for a while

Originally posted by Rubysoho
For those that do not suffer intolerance/allergy they are still consuming a product that is full of growth hormones, antibiotics, pesticides, dioxins, cholesterol and saturated fat.


Yes, but, chocolate milk shake, bechemel sauce, bread and butter pudding, ice cream, latte coffe ?
It's bad for you but it's nice. I just can't live my life denying myself the simple pleasures becasue they might be a bit bad for me. I gave-up smoking, I refuse to give-up anything else.

Originally posted by Rubysoho

Humans are the ONLY mammal that not only continues to consume milk past childhood thru' adolescence and into adulthood but also the ONLY mammal that consume's the milk of another species.


Which may well have been a considerable assistance in the evolution and development of modern Homo sapiens from the stunted hunter-gatherers we once were.

I'm also pretty sure that there are isolated examples of cross species feeding in other animals both in the wild as well as in husbandry

Originally posted by nick2
Yes, but, chocolate milk shake, bechemel sauce, bread and butter pudding, ice cream, latte coffe ?
It's bad for you but it's nice. I just can't live my life denying myself the simple pleasures becasue they might be a bit bad for me. I gave-up smoking, I refuse to give-up anything else.

But you can still make those things with milk substitutes like almond milk, rice milk or soya milk.

I'm not suggesting you give up milk nick, if you don't want to, but if anyone else wants to give it a try then you do get used to it. It does taste a bit different, but porridge (for example) made with soya milk is yummy.

Thanks Pacman, I'll give it a try! I think I also tend to overcook it, so I'll have o follow the instructions carefully!

Originally posted by Strix
There was a thread on 'how do I cook Tofu' and I got told off for suggesting it was horrid :confused:

I haven't seen that thread - will have a search for it!
It only seems to be horrid when I cook it, otherwise it's ok! I thought it was horrid too, until I tried some that was nice!

Originally posted by Rubysoho
Humans are the ONLY mammal that not only continues to consume milk past childhood thru' adolescence and into adulthood but also the ONLY mammal that consume's the milk of another species.
I'm sure I've seen a cat stealing from a cow on 'you've been framed'

Originally posted by nick2
I woudl imagine thats because (for some African tribes anyway) milk is one of their staple foods.

eh?
They can't digest milk because it's their staple diet???

It's because caucasians domesticated cattle first (around 10k years ago) that we have evolved to digest milk throughout our life.

As to it not being 'biologically compatible' that's hocum pocum.

We can eat a cow, but not drink it's milk, despite having an enzyme who's only purpose is to break down the primary sugar in milk.

Anything that our body can't digest or use is ejected, anything that it can is stored and used as appropriate. With the exceptions of certain compounds that poison us, and heavy metals which we've not evolved to deal with since they aren't common in our environment.

Saturated fat is the only point I agree with, and that's why semi-skimmed and skimmed milk exists.

Originally posted by Cyclone
eh?
They can't digest milk because it's their staple diet???

It's because caucasians domesticated cattle first (around 10k years ago) that we have evolved to digest milk throughout our life.


No, read what I replied to.

Someone said that the production of the enzyme is more so in African people, I said that might be because milk is part of their staple diet (so they need the enzyme to digest it).

Originally posted by nick2
No, read what I replied to.

Someone said that the production of the enzyme is more so in African people, I said that might be because milk is part of their staple diet (so they need the enzyme to digest it).

you replied to me.
And what I'd said was the production of the enzyme falls of rapidly after childhood in virtually everyone except caucasians. You misread it.

but lactase production in people of African, Asian and Native American descent declines sharply with age

So you did, I'm wrong.

But milk is a staple food for a lot of African tribes.

Originally posted by nick2
So you did, I'm wrong.

But milk is a staple food for a lot of African tribes.

unless their genetics differs from the norm they most likely can't digest it after about 8 years old. Must make it a very windy tribal gathering :P

Originally posted by Cyclone
unless their genetics differs from the norm they most likely can't digest it after about 8 years old. Must make it a very windy tribal gathering :P

LOL

I saw this program on the Discovery channel, some tribe or other lives almost entirely on cows milk and blood mixed together, and the odd root and grub they find. They must get some nutritional value from the milk or they would all starve ?

yes but cyclone -

For me and alot of people when you give up milk for a while you feel better milk is mucus forming so you get blocked up noses and flem. The natural enzymes which are in cows milk that help humans to digest it arnt in it because off the prosses it goes through. So if you want good quality milk why dont you go in a field and squeez it your self

To pull things a bit back on topic:

Over the years as a member of the Sheffield Vegan Society I've seen no end of kids brought up vegan, from toddler through to twentysomthing.
Scientific papers and case histories confirm that a well-balanced vegan diet is highly protective against the many diseases of western society.
With the typical meat based diet chronic diseases like fatty build up in the arteries start to manifest in childhood. Therefore to enable our children to have the best start in life, all health professionals should be advocating a much more plant-based diet. In fact noticing the general health of those around us we should all be seriously looking into our diet.

Cheers

I have been vegan for about 13 years now and have brought two sons up on the diet 1 now 14 and the other 12 and neither would ever want to change they diet, I also have a 19 month old daughter who is thrieving on a vegan diet, so the article is cr@p, probbably funded by some meat or diary company.

Originally posted by ewloe
I have been vegan for about 13 years now and have brought two sons up on the diet 1 now 14 and the other 12 and neither would ever want to change they diet, I also have a 19 month old daughter who is thrieving on a vegan diet, so the article is cr@p, probbably funded by some meat or diary company.

not exactly a scientific study. Where is your control child, without a control you have no 'normal' diet child to make comparisons with.

Originally posted by Cyclone
not exactly a scientific study. Where is your control child, without a control you have no 'normal' diet child to make comparisons with.

Of course, you're ALWAYS one to make statements based upon scientific fact! (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?postid=257018#post257018) :P ;)

K x

Originally posted by Cyclone
not exactly a scientific study. Where is your control child, without a control you have no 'normal' diet child to make comparisons with.

my control child would be me, my brother, my 3 sisters and 10 nieces and nephews, who were brought up as dead animal eaters.

my kids are a lot happier and healthier, and also much more well behaived than any of them including my self.

we also home educate so that may have something to do with the behaivour side.

Originally posted by ewloe
my control child would be me, my brother, my 3 sisters and 10 nieces and nephews, who were brought up as dead animal eaters.

my kids are a lot happier and healthier, and also much more well behaived than any of them including my self.

we also home educate so that may have something to do with the behaivour side.

sorry, that's not a control. They need to be identical in every way (or in as many as possible given human studies) to be considered a control.
For people this would mean a twin study, where one had followed the vegan, and the other a normal diet. No other differences.

Quite hard to set up, and still needs a large sample size to eliminate differences.

Kristian - wherever possible I do. I try not to state opinions or anecodotes as anything other than they are. I certainly wouldn't quote an anecdote as a fact. Find me an example where i've done such and i'll retract my statement.

Originally posted by Cyclone
sorry, that's not a control. They need to be identical in every way (or in as many as possible given human studies) to be considered a control.
For people this would mean a twin study, where one had followed the vegan, and the other a normal diet. No other differences.

Quite hard to set up, and still needs a large sample size to eliminate differences.

Kristian - wherever possible I do. I try not to state opinions or anecodotes as anything other than they are. I certainly wouldn't quote an anecdote as a fact. Find me an example where i've done such and i'll retract my statement.

I never said you quoted an anecdote as a fact; I simply pointed out to you that you made a definate statement without any factual basis, and I was able to provide factual evidence proving the opposite!

K x

Originally posted by Cyclone
sorry, that's not a control. They need to be identical in every way (or in as many as possible given human studies) to be considered a control.
For people this would mean a twin study, where one had followed the vegan, and the other a normal diet. No other differences.

Quite hard to set up, and still needs a large sample size to eliminate differences.


well that is impossible which parent in their right mind would, when knowing the harms a meat diet can do to you would feed it to one twin and feed the other with a much healthier and natural vegan diet?

Originally posted by ewloe
well that is impossible which parent in their right mind would, when knowing the harms a meat diet can do to you would feed it to one twin and feed the other with a much healthier and natural vegan diet?

lol
What parent in there right mind would partake knowing the harm that not having meat in the diet can do to a childs development.

Where do you get the idea that it's natural, we have incisors for a reason.

Originally posted by Cyclone
lol
What parent in there right mind would partake knowing the harm that not having meat in the diet can do to a childs development.

Where do you get the idea that it's natural, we have incisors for a reason.

Oh dear, I don't know about you Cyclone, but I would find it quite difficult trying to rip through the neck of a live cow, pig, deer etc with my teeny, tiny little incisors, or are yours different? Are you really a vampire (or even a lion/tiger human hybrid) with extremely large, sharp, pointy teeth just made for slicing through and ripping apart live flesh??

There are PLENTY of research articles/studies that show the BENEFITS of a vegan (and vegetarian) diet for both children AND adults if you care to find them, however seeing as you seem to spend most of your time nitpicking over the validity of them just because no-one has (of yet) commisioned one on a large number of twins.

Some examples of such research can be found

here (http://www.andrews.edu/NUFS/Vegan%20Children.html) , here (http://www.vegetarian.org.uk/reportschildrenshealth.htm) , here (http://www.scienzavegetariana.it/rubriche/cong2002/vegcon_infant_diet_en.html) andhere (http://www.purifymind.com/Vege.htm) .

Originally posted by Rubysoho
Oh dear, I don't know about you Cyclone, but I would find it quite difficult trying to rip through the neck of a live cow, pig, deer etc with my teeny, tiny little incisors, or are yours different? Are you really a vampire (or even a lion/tiger human hybrid) with extremely large, sharp, pointy teeth just made for slicing through and ripping apart live flesh??

There are PLENTY of research articles/studies that show the BENEFITS of a vegan (and vegetarian) diet for both children AND adults if you care to find them, however seeing as you seem to spend most of your time nitpicking over the validity of them just because no-one has (of yet) commisioned one on a large number of twins.

Some examples of such research can be found

here (http://www.andrews.edu/NUFS/Vegan%20Children.html) , here (http://www.vegetarian.org.uk/reportschildrenshealth.htm) , here (http://www.scienzavegetariana.it/rubriche/cong2002/vegcon_infant_diet_en.html) andhere (http://www.purifymind.com/Vege.htm) .

Well, they certainly aren't designed for ripping the life from a lettuce. Unless your teeth are from some sort of human/rabbit or human/cow hibrid.
I believe the theory is that humans were scavengers and hunters of smaller mammals. So ripping the throat out of a squirrel with my incisors, or chewing on a bit of dead meat, I expect they could accomplish that.

Obviously those are all completely unbiased websites, and i've no doubt that no matter how hard I tried I couldn't find 'studies' showing the opposite...

Interesting, I read the andrews one (assuming it to be the least biased). It says that a vegan diet can be healthy. It certainly doesn't come to the conclusion that being vegan is healthier than being omnivorous.

Kristian - sorry, I didn't follow the link before. Well done, you've pointed out that i'm not infallible. I misremembered a fact, and thus presented something incorrectly. So sue me ;)

why meat is healthy - links here (http://www.nutrition.org.uk/upload/Healthy%20Eating%20A%20Whole%20Diet%20Approach.doc ) here (http://www.homehealth-uk.com/index.html?f=body|fr=http://www.homehealth-uk.com/medical/healthybalanceddiet.htm|r) and here (http://familydoctor.org/297.xml).

There are plenty of other studies out there, just as I'm sure there are MANY that say meat is the better option - but every study will show bias one way or another depending on who paid for it/commissioned it, so I apologise most profusely for not putting up some completely unbiased material - which I am sure the pro-meat eating links (and the material contained within them)you put are absolutely 100% not contaminated with any sponsorship/funding etc from the meat and dairy industry.

As regards to the incisor thing, personally I wouldn't want to rip my teeth into the neck of a small mammal, would you?? One thing to go slaughter, gut and clean the animal yourself quite another to go buy a 'nice' piece of clean, safe, non-threatening, 'bears-no-resemblance to the animal it was actually taken from' piece of meat from the supermarket.

Given the choice between a diet that is good for my own personal health, good for the environment and helps towards the longevity and survival of the planet as a whole (doesn't contribute towards soil erosion, excessive water usage, deforestation etc), and a diet that is predominantly based on something that does contribute towards some (if not all) of the major diseases in the western world as well as quickly decimating the worlds natural resources in it's production and manufacture - I choose the first option every time.

This is my choice, if you want to contribute not only to your own ill health and the ailing health of the planet then that is entirely up to you, but do not denegrate my choice as being unhealthier than the propaganda given out by the oh-so-vested interests of the multi-billion pound/dollar meat and dairy (we give such impartial health advice, we do) industries.

I wasn't claiming that my links were impartial, just showing that providing links would prove nothing as there are always authorities on the subject claiming the opposite.

No, I'd rather use a knife. But given that we've progressed beyond a hunter gatherer society I'll do the work I do and use the currency I recieve to pay for some pre prepared food.
I have no qualms about having to kill in order for me to live, I don't have to directly, but I don't pretend that it doesn't happen.
As to the rest, it sounds like propaganda and fud to me. Is there credible evidence to support deforestation caused by animal husbandry?
And the last paragraph, I have nothing against you being vegan, why must you throw around accusations like "contribute not only to your own ill health". I'm perfectly healthy, well adjusted and fit thankyou, whilst i'll happily discuss my lifestyle i'd rather you didn't denigrate in the vein hope that I might change, or even just for the sake of it.

Originally posted by Cyclone
I wasn't claiming that my links were impartial, just showing that providing links would prove nothing as there are always authorities on the subject claiming the opposite.

No, I'd rather use a knife. But given that we've progressed beyond a hunter gatherer society I'll do the work I do and use the currency I recieve to pay for some pre prepared food.
I have no qualms about having to kill in order for me to live, I don't have to directly, but I don't pretend that it doesn't happen.
As to the rest, it sounds like propaganda and fud to me. Is there credible evidence to support deforestation caused by animal husbandry?
And the last paragraph, I have nothing against you being vegan, why must you throw around accusations like "contribute not only to your own ill health". I'm perfectly healthy, well adjusted and fit thankyou, whilst i'll happily discuss my lifestyle i'd rather you didn't denigrate in the vein hope that I might change, or even just for the sake of it.

So McDonalds didn't use deforestation of the rainforest to provide grazing land for their cattle - obviously that was some more propaganda and fud - even though they were found 'guilty' of it in the McLibel trial. So yes there is evidence of it (plenty of evidence) if you can be bothered to find it and read it.

I put links up for people who may be interested, not just merely as an argument for arguments sake.

As for the last paragraph, why is it acceptable for you to denegrate other's lifestyle choice and question whether it is healthy or sound (as you did with ewloe) and yet no-one dare level anything even slightly untoward back at you. I was not denigrating you in the vain hope that you might change your diet as it was fairly obvious from your stance taken throughout the thread that it is a change you are not open to.

Originally posted by Rubysoho
So McDonalds didn't use deforestation of the rainforest to provide grazing land for their cattle - obviously that was some more propaganda and fud - even though they were found 'guilty' of it in the McLibel trial. So yes there is evidence of it (plenty of evidence) if you can be bothered to find it and read it.

I put links up for people who may be interested, not just merely as an argument for arguments sake.

As for the last paragraph, why is it acceptable for you to denegrate other's lifestyle choice and question whether it is healthy or sound (as you did with ewloe) and yet no-one dare level anything even slightly untoward back at you. I was not denigrating you in the vain hope that you might change your diet as it was fairly obvious from your stance taken throughout the thread that it is a change you are not open to.

I think you'll find that all I said to ewloe that her anecdote is not evidence that being vegan is healthier than being omnivorous as she has no control to her 'experiment'. Unless you mean my response to this comment by ewloe
written by ewloe - knowing the harms a meat diet can do to you which i responded to by saying the opposite.

So, the attacks on one lifestyle or the other started with the vegan side of this argument. All I argued was that anecdotes are not evidence.
I'm completely open to change, but I can see no convincing argument from either side of the argument. I don't expect you to change and I don't intend too. If either side had a good argument then I'd expect one of us to reconsider.

The actions of one company do not make a trend or a fair generalisation to the entire meat industry, which is what you have clearly done. If I find a single farm that uses intensive farming techniques and has cleared forested land would you be happy for me to claim that growing crops for vegans is a cause of deforestation, I doubt it.

Originally posted by Cyclone
I think you'll find that all I said to ewloe that her anecdote is not evidence that being vegan is healthier than being omnivorous as she has no control to her 'experiment'. Unless you mean my response to this comment by ewloe
which i responded to by saying the opposite.

So, the attacks on one lifestyle or the other started with the vegan side of this argument. All I argued was that anecdotes are not evidence.
I'm completely open to change, but I can see no convincing argument from either side of the argument. I don't expect you to change and I don't intend too. If either side had a good argument then I'd expect one of us to reconsider.

The actions of one company do not make a trend or a fair generalisation to the entire meat industry, which is what you have clearly done. If I find a single farm that uses intensive farming techniques and has cleared forested land would you be happy for me to claim that growing crops for vegans is a cause of deforestation, I doubt it.

I have lived both sides of the coin, I ate meat until I was 16, then I became veggie, last year I became vegan - I know through personal experience of ALL sides which is the best lifestyle choice for me - can you say the same??

It is not a generalisation, I gave McDonalds as an example of just one firm that does it - are you so naive as to think they are the only one???