In light of the recent Sheffield Economic Masterplan launch there has been a lot of discussion about the formation of a new 'northern super city' with improved links between Sheffield Manchester and Leeds making it possible for these three cities to rival London as an economic hub.

Is this possible? Do people WANT this?
Will this open the doors for one mass conurbation with the loss of all that is individual in each city?
Isn't the unique and honest character of Sheffield one of the city's strengths?

Opinions!?

There was an exhibition on this very subject on in Manchester last year, but i can't find a link anywhere!

Maybe this was it:
http://www.centreforcities.org/home.php
http://centreforcities.typepad.com/centre_for_cities/2008/01/northern-super.html

they'll be telling us we're gonna have an airport next.

well the idea is to improve transport links between the three cities - they are only 35 miles apart. a distance that takes 20 mins from reading to londonbut an hour from manchester to sheffield...

well the idea is to improve transport links between the three cities - they are only 35 miles apart. a distance that takes 20 mins from reading to london, but an hour from manchester to sheffield...

I think that'd be a great idea!

well the idea is to improve transport links between the three cities - they are only 35 miles apart. a distance that takes 20 mins from reading to londonbut an hour from manchester to sheffield...

I don't recall a mountain range between Reading and London.

I don't recall a mountain range between Reading and London.


The Pennines can hardly be described as mountains

I don't recall a mountain range between Reading and London.

I don't recall one between Manchester and Sheffield either, but i don't think that is the point. Links between all three cities could realistically be made far quicker.

Does anybody in their right mind think that road links between Sheffield and Manchester, let alone rail links, ever be invested in heavily in order to give this idea and credibility whatsoever? Nada.

I don't recall on between Manchester and Sheffield either

You'd better go and take a look then. It's been there for at least fifty million years; not quite sure how you missed it. :rolleyes:

Not again....

I remember Ten Dinners Prescott warbling on about this some time ago.

Geography is not our friend when it coems to competing with London.

I don't think the suggestion is for one large connurbation which swamps the whole of the north, more just an idea to improve both transport links and co-oporation between the three cities, which to be honest can be nothing but a good thing.

The main benifit would probably be the increase in the labour pool (within a certain distance). For Sheffield it would go from something like 700,000 within 45mins, to a couple of million.

Leg-end, I think the exhibition you're on about were Alsops idea for a northern super city (which were on display in URBIS in Manchester). This just shows, his ideas may have been weird, wacky and unrealistic on the surface, but the essence of it was quite a good idea.

And unfortunately you're right there Stormy, the government seems to want to invest little in public transport outside of London, and the option of a huge motorway through the pennines is completely unrealistic (without a huge tunnel - and big costs). However maybe with 3 core cities all pushing for it there may be a bit more weight behind any proposals.

Not again....

I remember Ten Dinners Prescott warbling on about this some time ago.

Geography is not our friend when it coems to competing with London.

...and neither is the government. Its beyond belief that people 'in the know' are saying that we could have serious investment in the rail links, when National Grid, who currently own the woodhead tunnel, are applying for permission (and it looks likely to be granted) to relay power lines through the tunnel. If it goes ahead, there will be no chance of that route (which is the only realistic chance of a decent line being opened) ever being re-opened.
Dont forget that the government has more important transport links to waste spend their money on. Crossrail, anyone? :rolleyes:
And does anybody think that in this day and age of carbon footpronts and little fluffy polar bears we will get a new road built across some of the most beautiful countryside in the country? It will never happen.

You'd better go and take a look then. It's been there for at least fifty million years; not quite sure how you missed it. :rolleyes:

Sorry, I was being flippant as you were!

Unfortunately, there is no universally accepted standard definition for the height of a mountain or a hill although a mountain usually has an identifiable summit. In the United Kingdom, a mountain must be over 600 meters (1969 feet) or over 300 meters (984 feet) if it's an abrupt difference in the local topography. However, some hills can be called mountains and some mountains can be called hills - it's just a matter of the original name given to the relief.

However, i think the terrain is still suitable for the road infrastructure to be greatly improved upon.

Leg-end, I think the exhibition you're on about were Alsops idea for a northern super city (which were on display in URBIS in Manchester). This just shows, his ideas may have been weird, wacky and unrealistic on the surface, but the essence of it was quite a good idea.

Paulmat, i think you might be right (www.urbis.org.uk), thank you.

Not sure really what to make of it really...are we really only 35 miles apart?

Also, admittedly the transport links could be improved but the M1 straight to Leeds is already there as are dual carriageways to manchester-- yet we are not part of a Northern Super City....
if each of the cities were to grow to the point that the outskirts touched then I can possibly see benefits of sharing facilities... but this is unlikely to happen...
Also, i think it is the wrong approach and attitude... rather than improve the infrastructure of Sheffield specifically i.e. build and maintain an international airport, we will just throw the blanket further and say that we have one in the Manchester region of the Northern Super City.
But on another note... what would it be called? Sheeffchester

What would it be called.... Sheeffchester?

Well its better than Manfields!

I'm with Stormy on this one!

And unfortunately you're right there Stormy, the government seems to want to invest little in public transport outside of London, and the option of a huge motorway through the pennines is completely unrealistic (without a huge tunnel - and big costs). However maybe with 3 core cities all pushing for it there may be a bit more weight behind any proposals.

I still don't think it would happen. Technically the North-east, North-west and Yorkshire are so underfunded per head of population by the Government that there should be plenty of cash for such a scheme if they were to redress the underfunding but frankly it's never going to happen. London-based Governments don't give a damn about the North and you'd hear the howls of protest if places like Scotland and London suddenly had millions taken away from their budgets even if they shouldn't have that money in the first place.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: we should have a dual carriageway along most, if not all, of the Stocksbridge - Woodhead route. They seem to manage these things in places like Switzerland and Austria:

Brenner Pass (http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u168/aquafine_album/BrennerPass.jpg)

There's a quango body called the The Northern Way which promotes ideas on links between the northern cities.

Better transport links are vital to the success of all the northern cities, both public and private but I don't think we need an M62 style motorway between Manchester and Sheffield. Simply widening the Woodhead Pass to a dual carriageway along it's entire length would surfice, including a Mottram/Tintwistle bypass, and reopening the Woodhead Tunnel for faster journey times for train users is all that's needed.

Hmmm...

Link up the citys with better roads and rail, then build a few factories and warehouses along the roads, then houses to supply people to work in the factories, then as the population grows, more factories and shops and a school or two, then a hospital and more homes to supply all of that, then as the population grows build more factories and schools and houses and...

Bye bye green belt...

Hmmm...

Link up the citys with better roads and rail, then build a few factories and warehouses along the roads, then houses to supply people to work in the factories, then as the population grows, more factories and shops and a school or two, then a hospital and more homes to supply all of that, then as the population grows build more factories and schools and houses and...

Bye bye green belt...

That's definately a nightmare scenario but it hasn't happened along the M62 corridor and that's been there for.......... how long?

well the idea is to improve transport links between the three cities - they are only 35 miles apart. a distance that takes 20 mins from reading to londonbut an hour from manchester to sheffield...

But to do those 35 miles in 20 minutes, you'd be travelling at 105mph :huh:

How fast do modern trains travel - I don't know, really.

But to do those 35 miles in 20 minutes, you'd be travelling at 105mph :huh:

How fast do modern trains travel - I don't know, really.

Fastest domestic is 125mph which would be about right when you take into account accelarating and braking times

I still don't think it would happen. Technically the North-east, North-west and Yorkshire are so underfunded per head of population by the Government that there should be plenty of cash for such a scheme if they were to redress the underfunding but frankly it's never going to happen. London-based Governments don't give a damn about the North and you'd hear the howls of protest if places like Scotland and London suddenly had millions taken away from their budgets even if they shouldn't have that money in the first place.

Yes Funky Gibbon dead right.

While ever the North votes Labour time in and time out it never will change. The Tories need London and know they have no chance in the North, and Labour needs Scotland to become the Government. Both of these regions get the cash bungs. The rest of the country can go hang because " we know we have your vote or will never get it - so go stuff yourselves".

:rant:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: we should have a dual carriageway along most, if not all, of the Stocksbridge - Woodhead route. They seem to manage these things in places like Switzerland and Austria:

Brenner Pass (http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u168/aquafine_album/BrennerPass.jpg)

There's a quango body called the The Northern Way which promotes ideas on links between the northern cities.

That looks great! - but I dont think british drivers could cope with it. Afterall people already moan that the Stockbridge bypass is sooooo dangerous.

That looks great! - but I dont think british drivers could cope with it. Afterall people already moan that the Stockbridge bypass is sooooo dangerous.

That's because it is not a dual carriageway, and consequently there's a lot of head-on collisions.

Yes Funky Gibbon dead right.

While ever the North votes Labour time in and time out it never will change.

I don't think voting Labour or Labour being a Northern Stronghold is to blame.

Manchester and Liverpool city centres are prospering at an incredible rate at the moment. Road links are superbly maintained and I'd imagine that the majority of the population of these cities vote Labour.

That's because it is not a dual carriageway, and consequently there's a lot of head-on collisions.

As a consequence of it not being a dual carriageway there are a lot of head on collisions?? Wheres the logic in that?

There's no middle barrier separating the two directions.

Getting idiots overtaking into the oncoming traffic all the time.

I hear that the country lane that is the Snake Pass is closed yet again today because it's "not safe to drive on". Can anyone remind me what century we're living in that a main route from two major cities has to be closed in this way. Wasn't it closed for half a day because of a jackknifed lorry last week?

but I don't think we need an M62 style motorway between Manchester and Sheffield. Simply widening the Woodhead Pass to a dual carriageway along it's entire length would surfice

Given the current traffic volumes, I'm not convinced that even a dual carriageway is required over the top. I saw old Derbyshire plans for a "improvement" of the bends along the route dating from the 1980's, which looked rather good value for money.

Given the current growth in the area, it wouldn't be a bad idea to plan for dual in the medium term right the way accross, but in the mean time, perhaps getting the Mottram bypass completed (as dual not the current single), getting rid of that damned roundabout at Tankersley and completing the 1980's Derbyshire CC proposals would probably be enough for the short term (5-10yrs)

But hey, we don't build roads anymore ! :rant:

Given the current traffic volumes, I'm not convinced that even a dual carriageway is required over the top. I saw old Derbyshire plans for a "improvement" of the bends along the route dating from the 1980's, which looked rather good value for money.

Given the current growth in the area, it wouldn't be a bad idea to plan for dual in the medium term right the way accross, but in the mean time, perhaps getting the Mottram bypass completed (as dual not the current single), getting rid of that damned roundabout at Tankersley and completing the 1980's Derbyshire CC proposals would probably be enough for the short term (5-10yrs)

But hey, we don't build roads anymore ! :rant:

Is there any chance you can provide a link so we can see these 1980's plans?
Thanks.

Is there any chance you can provide a link so we can see these 1980's plans?
Thanks.

I'm pretty sure they don't exist online... However...

From memory, it included;
1, A new bridge over Salter's Brook, about 100m north of the existing battered bridge - removing the s-bends
2, Sweeter curve over Hawthorne Clough
3, A better line over the Woodhead Tunnel mouth

This site is handy for OS plans to get an idea of names...
http://www.maptasm.com/ Defaults to Wandsworth !!!! grrr...

I have some photos of the proposed "M67" over the Pennines in my collection, plus something called the "Flockton Link" which cut the M1/M62 corner linking Haigh and Brighouse, I'll try to get them posted in the next few days...

Its fine for the Government to say they don't build roads. They don't build railways (outside of London/SE)) either. So what do we do? Rail fares are increasing faster than inflation, the cost of motoring is not. So more people use the roads. But then there isn't the space for the cars.

Hey ho.


But hey, we don't build roads anymore ! :rant:

Its fine for the Government to say they don't build roads. They don't build railways (outside of London/SE)) either. So what do we do? Rail fares are increasing faster than inflation, the cost of motoring is not. So more people use the roads. But then there isn't the space for the cars.

Up until recently I was "sort of" happy with the "not building roads" line, because government was putting money into public transport, rail upgrades etc... But, even that money is becoming thin on the ground these days.

Local Government has become bogged down in the fact that they don't get any funding for major infrastructure, without a 20yr crawl through government funding process... I can't recall any "Head of Service" being around for much more than 10yrs, so we have this "why bother, it will be the next guys problem" attitude ingrained in Local Government.

Solution ? Remove the principle road network from Local Control and set up more regional bodies (be it City Regions or the next big idea) in the style of the Highways Agency. Replace Local Member interference with central government accountability, to provide well managed, well maintained, capable and tolerant system of major roads that get people 90% of the way between home and work.... Leave the Motorways to do what they were designed for - taking goods and long distance traffic...

Funding ? Drop the madhouse idea to widen the M1 and use the £5Bn odd to make the major routes capable of doing what they need to do - getting people 10-15miles between home and work... The M1 wouldn't need widening if we had a decent major road network to complement the existing motorway network.

Hmmm...

Link up the citys with better roads and rail, then build a few factories and warehouses along the roads, then houses to supply people to work in the factories, then as the population grows, more factories and shops and a school or two, then a hospital and more homes to supply all of that, then as the population grows build more factories and schools and houses and...

Bye bye green belt...


We are talking about a direct through road. No need for any services or factories along a small stretch of road (35 miles is a small stretch in most countries) or this could be part underground tunnels to preserve the landscape. The only issue I see is Money!

I'm pretty sure they don't exist online... However...

From memory, it included;
1, A new bridge over Salter's Brook, about 100m north of the existing battered bridge - removing the s-bends
2, Sweeter curve over Hawthorne Clough
3, A better line over the Woodhead Tunnel mouth

This site is handy for OS plans to get an idea of names...
http://www.maptasm.com/ Defaults to Wandsworth !!!! grrr...

I have some photos of the proposed "M67" over the Pennines in my collection, plus something called the "Flockton Link" which cut the M1/M62 corner linking Haigh and Brighouse, I'll try to get them posted in the next few days...

Thanks.
I look forward to seeing those photos.
The only plan I can find is this one. http://www.mjpatch.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/route_large.gif

We are talking about a direct through road. No need for any services or factories along a small stretch of road (35 miles is a small stretch in most countries) or this could be part underground tunnels to preserve the landscape. The only issue I see is Money!

The A6 is similar to this near Chapel ENF.

As a consequence of it not being a dual carriageway there are a lot of head on collisions?? Wheres the logic in that?

A dual carriageway has opposite traffic flows separated by a barrier. The Stocksbridge bypass does not; it has three lanes, the centre one of which is sometimes for use in one direction and sometimes in the other.

On a dual carriageway, you can't get in a lane going the wrong way because there's a metal barrier in the way. On the bypass, you can, and people frequently do, leading to collisions.