After watching the tv programs this week on the treatment of chicken in this country i was wondering if it had made an impact with people and would they consider paying a pound or two more for free range.

If I ate meat, then I would always buy free range. It amazes me how meat eaters are so ignorant on how there food is raised and killed.

Yes and it amazes me as to how ignorant people are as to peoples food budgets, many people cant afford to pay for free range chicken as was highlighted on the Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall programme and he just came across as a bit of a prick having a go at that single mother he had been working with for going back to the cheap chickens, if at the end of the day you have little money and need to feed your children then you have no choice but to go for the cheaper option.

I'll be looking for free range when I go shopping next time, but I can understand why people with lower incomes can't afford to. The Hugh F-W programme highlighted not only the difference in the quality of the chickens' lives, but also that he simply doesn't understand that an extra couple of quid is a big mark-up for some people. And that, unfortunately, would have turned a lot of lower-income people off from what he was saying because it made him sound condescending.

I would love to buy free range, however the moneys well tight at the moment!

I agree with 3 kids its all about making your money go as far as you can, perhaps if supermarkets werent so greedy then I could afford free range stuff.........the farmer gets paid 3p (yes 3p):rant: by the supermarket for each chicken he rears and sells.......so if they were so compassionate then we could all afford free range items.......odly enough only 1 supermarket turned up to this programme !

I thought I read that more than 1 supermarket contributed material to the producers, but only one got interviewed on screen? It's easy to edit programmes to make your own point...
I'm undecided on the free range stuff to be honest. If there's an offer on and it's the same price as non free range, I'll go for it. Or if I know it'll taste better. But if it's not the same price, I'll take the view that food is food, chicken or lettuce, farmers grow it to be harvested, quality of life isn't all that important.

I don't eat chicken, but i would try to buy free range where possible if i did. Whenever i buy eggs i make sure they are free range.

Thing with Hugh FW is that you shouldn't and can't guilt trip people into paying more for free range. Yes its sad that the chicky wicks get treated badly but if its a choice of that or feeding the kids then anyone sensible is going to see their kids right.

On the flip side, if you can afford free range then do so. The more people buy it the more the price falls

I'm not bothered either way. At the end of the day the animal is being reared for me to eat....why should I care if it led a good life or not?

maybe they should do a programme with HFW attempting to live on our budget for 6 months.

When it comes to feeding my children I am going to give them what they need and if I failed to feed them properly because I'm concerned about a chickens welfare I'm sure the dr's and social services would be up in arms.

Of course I would love to buy FR and I do as much as possible but when you are skint and you need to feed 5 hungry mouths 2 chickens for £6.00 seems like a good deal.

This all smacks of victorian times when only rich people could afford to eat meat .

It also seems unfair that when people are dying because hospitals are dirty or sleeping in the street that the nation is going on a crusade to "save the chicken"

Free range every time. No arguments.

If you're worried about the price, buy a pheasant. They're more than just free range, they live in the hedgerows and fields. The hunting industry subsidises them as they are bred for game and the high prices charged to hunters to shoot them covers a lot of the cost. The pheasants are then sold fairly cheaply to butchers.

Baldocks in Woodseats sell them for £4 each, a lot less than a free range chicken of the same size and a lot tastier too :thumbsup:

after seeing the programme iv started to buy free range eggs,and i will also buy free range chicken when i go shopping next.
if everyone else did the same im sure the price would come down

all down to supply and demand.

I've always bought free range chicken and eggs. I'm no animal rights activist - but that programme really did tug on the heart strings. I can deal with watching animals killed for food no problem, but to see them being raised in those conditions, we're showing utter disrespect. For those who talk about not caring about the cruelty of it - what about the fact you're eating a chicken that has chemical burns from sitting in it's own faeces? That's enough to put me off my dinner.

In my opinion, if you can't afford it, don't eat it at all. By continuing to buy standard chickens you're ensuring that there's no motivation for change. If more people bought free range/freedom food standard (cheaper than free range) the prices will drop. One farmer even admitted he didn't want to keep his chickens in those conditions - but he's forced to because it's all the supermarkets will buy because of consumer demand.

I did my shopping online with Tesco last night. A whole, free-range chicken was £7.98 compared to an intensively farmed bird at £3 or "2 for a fiver". The birds were the same weight so those claiming it's only a couple of quid difference are wrong.

I didn't buy either.

I try and buy free range wherever possible. I have no problem killing and eating meat but there is a degree of respect needed if you are going to be "harvesting" animals in their millions. There is a difference between a lettuce and a chicken, or a pig, or cow.

I think the treatment of animals and the ignorance that goes with it is quite sad, especially considering the staggering amount of food waste. Animals raised in vile conditions and killed for their meat, and that meat wasted.

It would probably serve us right if a vastly superior alien species decided to battery farm humans for their meat in the same way that we do chickens and other animals :D

Does the fact that we are used to getting meat so cheap mean that it is right to do it that way? What if someone offered you cheap dog, or cat? Would you feed your family on that as well? For some reason, cheap dog burgers don't seem to be quite so socially acceptable....

There are other options than the giant supermarkets.

If you want the farmer to get more money for his chickens, shop local, find out places like coppice house farm or whirlow hall farm.

Buying free range isn't just about making sure the chicken had a two week holiday at butlins before you eat it, it's also about the crap food they're filled with not to mention fillers and additives in the case of intensively reared.

I watched Lies of the Land (?) the other night, and according to that battery farms are going to be illegal in 4 years anyhow, so maybe the sudden peer pressure is to get you used to what you will have no choice over in a few years anyhow.

If you're worried about the price, buy a pheasant. They're more than just free range, they live in the hedgerows and fields. The hunting industry subsidises them as they are bred for game and the high prices charged to hunters to shoot them covers a lot of the cost. The pheasants are then sold fairly cheaply to butchers.

Baldocks in Woodseats sell them for £4 each, a lot less than a free range chicken of the same size and a lot tastier too :thumbsup:
Now that's a good plan!

I don't eat meat but always buy free range for the kids, I try amd save money on other bog standard stuff so at least I can make sure what we eat is good clean well farmed stuff and local as much as possible

The jamie oliver programme last night had a real effect on me...i was surprised by what i saw and i will definatley put more thought into what kind of chicken i buy...

QQ: Does anyone know if the fresh roast chickens in morrisons and tesco's are battery or free range as i buy these all the time....

Also eggs used in products i buy....but i suppose there's nothing we can do about this!

after seeing the programme iv started to buy free range eggs,and i will also buy free range chicken when i go shopping next.
if everyone else did the same im sure the price would come down

all down to supply and demand.

If we all bought free range could they supply the demand though?

QQ: Does anyone know if the fresh roast chickens in morrisons and tesco's are battery or free range as i buy these all the time....
I'd doubt very much they're free range.

Free range - I'd rather have the occasional free range chicken as a treat than eat battery farmed chicken regularly.

I always buy organic meat and do not eat chicken in restaurants etc or at anyone's house unless i know it is organic, or know the farm that it's been raised on. For those people who object to it on the basis of budget, it would seem a good compromise to eat less chicken and make sure that what you do buy is free range. Children do not need to eat chicken all the time so it's a poor argument to blame it on 'mouths to feed'. You can cook a healthy and balanced diet for a family that includes meat as part of that, but treat it as a luxury rather than a daily necessity, which it isn't.

Plus, a lot of people who say they can't afford it seem to be able to buy 20 cigarattes per day, have Sky+ at home and take family trips to McDonalds once a week, so it's really more a matter of prioritising. It's a shame animals have to suffer as a result.

I'm on a very tight budget and so don't eat much meat because of the cost, but when I do have meat, I make sure that it's British (preferably local) and free range. It just tastes better - those value bags of frozen chicken breasts that you can get from Tesco just taste of water :gag:

I always buy organic meat
Be grateful you're in a position to be able to afford this option, many aren't.

'Be grateful you're in a position to be able to afford this option, many aren't.'

Yes, I am grateful that i am able to buy organic, but i'm not suggesting that everyone does this, just that they buy free range as a minimum. I'm not loaded but i do tend to spend on quality food and wine as i'm very into cooking and eating, so i buy the best wherever possible. I've grown up with a mother who was very into organic food and animal welfare well before it became so media friendly, so it's something i have had instilled into me from a young age, which i am extremely grateful for. As a result, some other things in my life are limited because i can't afford to do everything. I just feel that some things are more important than others and people should think about things more, rather than just using an old and convenient excuse.

'Be grateful you're in a position to be able to afford this option, many aren't.'

Yes, I am grateful that i am able to buy organic, but i'm not suggesting that everyone does this, just that they buy free range as a minimum. I'm not loaded but i do tend to spend on quality food and wine as i'm very into cooking and eating, so i buy the best wherever possible. I've grown up with a mother who was very into organic food and animal welfare well before it became so media friendly, so it's something i have had instilled into me from a young age, which i am extremely grateful for. As a result, some other things in my life are limited because i can't afford to do everything. I just feel that some things are more important than others and people should think about things more, rather than just using an old and convenient excuse.

I think i'm going to start buying me meat locally, someone suggested the coppice farm shop.

Any other places where you can buy locally produced meat??

x

I'm not loaded but i do tend to spend on quality food and wine as i'm very into cooking and eating, so i buy the best wherever possible. And that is your choice. What others spend their money on is their choice.

just that they buy free range as a minimum. Unfortunately many aren't prepared, or can't afford to spend twice as much for free range.

I just feel that some things are more important than others and people should think about things more, rather than just using an old and convenient excuse. And in the scale of things, the welfare of chickens isn't particularly important to a lot of people.

Plus, a lot of people who say they can't afford it seem to be able to buy 20 cigarattes per day, have Sky+ at home and take family trips to McDonalds once a week, so it's really more a matter of prioritising. It's a shame animals have to suffer as a result.


Yes you also have to take into account new shoes ,school uniforms, 5 children is a lot of work and before you ask neither of us smoke my husband works full time and it is till hard work . No my children do not have to eat chicken but why should they be denied it ? If everyone is so concerned maybe the government should work towards a totat ban on any chicken being farmed this way instead of allowing it to happen then guilttripping poor families into buying something that they can not afford.
Maybe people should worry more about child welfare then chicken welfare

maybe the government should work towards a total ban on any chicken being farmed this way instead of allowing it to happen then guilttripping poor families into buying something that they can not afford.


this is very true and he onus should really be on the goverment to stop this. Yes we can make a different if EVERYONE stopped buying battery chicken/eggs but as in life alot of people won't/can't or don't care enough to make this difference

I always buy organic meat .

I read somewhere that your 7 times more likely to get food poisoning from organic meat because it hasnt had all the inoculations (thats put in feed) .......... or something like that

I did my shopping online with Tesco last night. A whole, free-range chicken was £7.98 compared to an intensively farmed bird at £3 or "2 for a fiver". The birds were the same weight so those claiming it's only a couple of quid difference are wrong.

I didn't buy either.

They might be the same weight to start with but by the time you've cooked the battery chicken and it's lost gallons of water you haven't really saved!

I'm not bothered either way. At the end of the day the animal is being reared for me to eat....why should I care if it led a good life or not?

...perhaps because you're a human being, who hopefully has some compassion for non-human, living, sentient creatures, and wouldn't want them to be suffer unnecessarily just so you can eat them (especially when you can survive perfectly well without eating meat)?

Just been up to Stocksbridge to the greengrocers there and got a huge bag of fresh local fruit n veg for £6.

Then walked onto crashaws and bought a fresh Pheasant £3.50 and a big fresh barn reared chicken for about £6.

Can't complain, would have cost alot more in a supermarket for frozen alternatives, and it's supporting local businesses, thanks for putting the pheasant idea in my head, hope it's yummy!

Maybe people should worry more about child welfare then chicken welfare

Whats wrong with worrying about both, I manage to?

maybe they should do a programme with HFW attempting to live on our budget for 6 months.

When it comes to feeding my children I am going to give them what they need and if I failed to feed them properly because I'm concerned about a chickens welfare I'm sure the dr's and social services would be up in arms.

Of course I would love to buy FR and I do as much as possible but when you are skint and you need to feed 5 hungry mouths 2 chickens for £6.00 seems like a good deal.

This all smacks of victorian times when only rich people could afford to eat meat .

It also seems unfair that when people are dying because hospitals are dirty or sleeping in the street that the nation is going on a crusade to "save the chicken"

Don't get me wrong, i'd never suggest that anyone should regret having however many kids but it seems mad to me to have such a large family if you can't afford it?!?

Why not have 1 or 2 kids and be able to afford to give them the best?

I always try to buy organic wherever possible. Mainly because of the hormones & things given to animals. I am not loaded & have 4 kids to feed. I don't want all this crap passed onto them thats all. Most organic stuff isn't that much dearer - I think chicken is the exception. To be honest I was put off organic chicken by a programme a few months ago which said that many were still raised in conditions similar to battery chickens. I think it was one of Tonight with Trevor MacDonald. It was probably a bit of scaremongering but it put me off altogether & I have started using quorn instead. If its cooked in sauce it tastes just as nice & its much healthier & cheaper.

I have been meaning to but locally farmed meat for a while & will definitely start now.

...perhaps because you're a human being, who hopefully has some compassion for non-human, living, sentient creatures, and wouldn't want them to be suffer unnecessarily just so you can eat them (especially when you can survive perfectly well without eating meat)?

Sorry, but I look at it from another point of view. Do I find it better to take the life of somnthing that has a miserable existence, or to take the life from something which is having a wonderful time.

As for trying to throw the veggie guilt trip on me - last I checked I still had incisors and canines for cutting and ripping flesh. I am an omnivore and glad to be such. I would gladly hunt and kill my own meat if I had to, and have no qualms about how my livestock raised for my consumption are treated. There are plenty of other issues of greater concern to me than whether the roast dinner on my plate was happy before it died. If I can afford more expensive food, i will buy it. If I can't, I don't care, I will cook and eat what I like.

In addition, yes I could survive perfectly well without eating meat, just like I could survive perfectly well without drinking wine, playing computer games, reading books, listening to music, watching films, etc. But you know what? Just like all those other activities, i enjoy eating meat....a lot. It tastes good!

Sorry, but I look at it from another point of view. Do I find it better to take the life of somnthing that has a miserable existence, or to take the life from something which is having a wonderful time.



That's exactly what i thought.

In some ways it seems worse to kill the happy chicken than the one which would appreciate being put out of it's misery.

:huh:

But if you look at it from a totally selfish point of view, surely eating something that you know isn't pumped full of additives and has lived eating god knows what crap should be enough to make you look for a better source of food for you and your kids, without even beginning to think about the animals welfare?

Sorry, but I look at it from another point of view. Do I find it better to take the life of somnthing that has a miserable existence, or to take the life from something which is having a wonderful time.


Great...torture animals throughout their lives so they're grateful to be dead! Interesting attitude.

As for trying to throw the veggie guilt trip on me - last I checked I still had incisors and canines for cutting and ripping flesh..

When was the last time you ripped apart raw meat? True omnivores and carnivores relish the idea of eating fresh, uncooked meat.
I will cook and eat what I like.
Nobody is stopping you. Just thought you might like to think about the welfare of other things on the planet.

When was the last time you ripped apart raw meat? True omnivores and carnivores relish the idea of eating fresh, uncooked meat.

Since I have my steaks blue (as in barely even shown the flame) and also am partial to Steak tartare (when I can find it and afford it), it is safe to say I do like to rip and tear raw meat whenever i go out for a meal.

Yes and it amazes me as to how ignorant people are as to peoples food budgets, many people cant afford to pay for free range chicken as was highlighted on the Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall programme and he just came across as a bit of a prick having a go at that single mother he had been working with for going back to the cheap chickens, if at the end of the day you have little money and need to feed your children then you have no choice but to go for the cheaper option.

But, HFW did make some interesting points such as how the families were only using half the chicken then throwing the rest away. He showed them how to properly strip the chicken and they were all gobsmacked. He then made a chicken risotto from what he'd saved and they all said it was delish.

With regard to the single mother, I know this might be a bit below the belt, but judging by the size of her I would say that she spent more than the extra couple of quid it would have cost her to buy free range on other rubbish food. You dont get to be that size by swallowing air.

I understand that buying free range is considerably more expensive, however using the cost is not an entirely valid excuse. It's all about a lifestyle choice, if you really feel that the way standard chicken is reared is not acceptable then either 1) DOn't buy chicken or 2)buy free-range or the RSPCA freedom food and compromise on other food bought like snacks if your budget will allow. You wont starve just because you don't eat chicken.
I personally prefer not to buy standard as every single one you pick up has burns or sores on it's legs and I don't think eating something that has been sat in it's own excrement is particularly good to eat. Therefore, if i had children i don't think i would want feed them standard chicken for these reasons alone.
I can't afford to buy free-range every week but so i don't eat a lot of chicken these days. But when I do i can get 6 meals out of one bird which then doesn't seem so bad.

I agree with previous posters about the 'cost being too much to change' idea being a load of rubbish.

Most people don't understand how to properly get as much as you can out of your food - the attitude of 1 chicken = 1 meal isn't right! Unless you have a family of 8+ you CAN get more than one meal out of a chicken!

One the battery chickens are roasted they shrink down so much you have to buy 2 anyway!

I'm not bothered either way. At the end of the day the animal is being reared for me to eat....why should I care if it led a good life or not?

because its a living thing and all living things deserve at least some compassion wheter it be food or not!!!

If money was no object i'd buy the very best of everything. But, no matter how skint I am, I don't buy anything less than free range chicken. When I can't afford it, I don't have it. I'm quite fussy about what I feed to babybonny, and although we're very much meat-eaters, he rarely has meat and isn't that bothered about when he does have it.

I suppose what the programmes highlighted was that some people don't know or care much about what they're eating. Most people don't eat the recommended 5 portions of fruit and veg each day but your basic fruit and veg isn't expensive.

I buy both. If I'm having chicken as a main meal, I will buy Organic Free Range. If I'm making a curry, I'll probably use normal chicken breast fillets.

I always buy Organic Free Range Eggs though (£2.39 for 6) - simply because they taste better.

Just been up to Stocksbridge to the greengrocers there and got a huge bag of fresh local fruit n veg for £6.

Then walked onto crashaws and bought a fresh Pheasant £3.50 and a big fresh barn reared chicken for about £6.

Can't complain, would have cost alot more in a supermarket for frozen alternatives, and it's supporting local businesses, thanks for putting the pheasant idea in my head, hope it's yummy!

Hope you like it, I'll be interested to hear how it was :)

£3.50 is great value.

When was the last time you ripped apart raw meat? True omnivores and carnivores relish the idea of eating fresh, uncooked meat.



Not so - we're all true omnivores, and I doubt many of us relish the idea of eating uncooked meat. I don't - do you?

Hope you like it, I'll be interested to hear how it was :)

£3.50 is great value.

Well we just cooked it in the pressure cooker with a little stock some leeks and carrots, and had it with mashed potatoes, and it was lovely, just enough for three I'd say and I was suprised how much meat came off it as it only seemed small.

As for taste, it was nice, will have it again, would I sound odd if I said it reminded me of fresh tuna?

We are what we eat. Regardless of the welfare issues (and, although I don't agree, I can appreciate that some may think that as long as the food is produced, the process is irrelevant) what concerns me about animals bred in such unnatural, unhealthy conditions is that I am then eating them, hormones, scabs, antibiotics and all, and that that is then building the cells of my body:gag:. I'd be interested to see what fine specimens of human beings some of the individuals advocating that it makes sense to eat dross food are....

As for taste, it was nice, will have it again, would I sound odd if I said it reminded me of fresh tuna?

Not just odd.....unique! :hihi:

Glad you liked it. They are good plain roasted too, especially earlier in the season.

I can afford to look after my 5 children very well thankyou very much but like most people I have to live on a budget .

What a ridiculous thing to say unisol .

Meat should be a treat - we don't need to eat it every day. Me and my partner eat meat about 2-3 times a week max with other meals being made up from fish, beans and dairy. All these provide protein. We don't eat ready meals as we love food and cooking and in no way trust the supermarkets or any other producers to cook for us!!

I don't know about anyone else but I find eating too much meat really messes with my body. The bloated feeling after Christmas, i think, isn't just down to too much booze and mince pies. I think the overload of meat adds to it.

So if you reduce the amount of meat you eat, you can afford to spend more on it. We shop at Waitrose and because i'm happy with their welfare policies i am happy to but their free range pork, free range chicken and normal British beef and lamb. Previously we shopped at Tesco and we bought all organic meat, because i am not happy with Tesco policy. We also buy free range eggs, organic cheese and milk.

People are not joking when they say organic/free range tastes better. The difference is amazing, just give it a go!! We should be more responsible about what we eat and what we feed kids. The thought of eating a manky chicken which has grown too much and too quickly so it can't walk and just sits in its own mess makes me feel ill. It hasn't led a healthy life and must be so full of fat, and god knows what drugs and hormones, that it's verging on being a man made product rather than a natural living animal.

That's my opinion anyway!! I think HFW should be giving people a few more alternatives to meat too whilst persuading people to eat organic/free range.

Not so - we're all true omnivores, and I doubt many of us relish the idea of eating uncooked meat. I don't - do you?

Predictably, I'm a veggie and have been for 23 years, so no, I certainly don't fancy eating raw or cooked meat. By true omnivore, I was referring to the differences seen in our digestive systems, which is a more accurate distinguishing factor. Humans have a digestive system more similar to a herbivore than anything else (long, with digestion commencing in the mouth), and our teeth are actually ill-designed to tear into flesh or chew bone. We have just adapted to eating meat, and hence find it more palatable if cooked. A chimp, for example, as a true omnivore, is quite happy to eat meat raw.

To bring things back on topic, I think the TV coverage of what goes on in intensive farming is a good thing. It was learning of such cruelty that prompted my decision to give up meat, as I would consider myself a hypocrite otherwise. I did not want to pay someone to keep animals in appalling conditions and then kill them for me, which is what you are doing if you purchase intensively reared animals. The health implications to the consumer, as pointed out by previous posters, are also of great concern. Intensive/horribly artificial production methods have a way of coming back to haunt us, as it did with BSE, when we fed naturally herbivorous cows bits from other cows.

I'll certainly be eating less chicken and the chicken I do eat will be at minimum, the RSPCA welfare standard. They have it in Sainsbury's and two breasts cost about 70p more than the standard and whole chickens are about £1.00 more, it's worth paying in my opinion!

I've been buying free range chickens for the last 6 month or more and a free range turkey for Xmas. After seeing Hugh's programme last week I'm happy we've switched and happy to pay the extra.

I went to Morrisons today and was amazed how many people were shoving loads of standard chickens in their trolleys as they were cheap and chicken breast were on offer. Obviously not seen the programme or been bothered by it.

Morrisions had NO free range chickens or free range chicken breasts and when I asked the lady stocking the shelves she just said NO we dont have em!

Needless to say I bought no chicken cos if its not free range I dont want it. I even scrubbed the hot ready roasted chickens off my list as at their price they must be the standard chickens!

Although they did have free range eggs on offer.

I voted 'No' but that's 'cos I woudn't poison my body with dead animal not 'cos I would buy factory reared birds.

I've always bought free range chicken and eggs. I'm no animal rights activist - but that programme really did tug on the heart strings. I can deal with watching animals killed for food no problem, but to see them being raised in those conditions, we're showing utter disrespect. For those who talk about not caring about the cruelty of it - what about the fact you're eating a chicken that has chemical burns from sitting in it's own faeces? That's enough to put me off my dinner.

In my opinion, if you can't afford it, don't eat it at all. By continuing to buy standard chickens you're ensuring that there's no motivation for change. If more people bought free range/freedom food standard (cheaper than free range) the prices will drop. One farmer even admitted he didn't want to keep his chickens in those conditions - but he's forced to because it's all the supermarkets will buy because of consumer demand.

I completly agree twiglet. I have made a concious decision to only buy chicken when I can afford to buy free range chicken. If money is tight, I do without the meat. I am fine with watching animals being slaughtered for meat, infact I would think of myself as hypocritical and closed minded if I chose to ignore it and yet continued to eat meat. But I am against the cruel conditions such as those shown on Hugh FW's programme. I am also aware that perhaps free range standards are not upheld to the level that we would like - it's difficult to police. But in order to make the necessary changes and ensure our food is bred humanely from birth through to the plate, we all have to make these informed choices. Ignorance is not an option.

If I do eat meat again, it'll be free range for sure. I was sickened and repulsed by what was revealed! In fact the trailers were enough to make me stop and look at my habits

Any person whining that they "can't afford" not to buy the cheapest meat I'm sure will make sure they can still afford beer, fags, the lottery, gossip magazines, pop, crisps, confectionary, etc etc etc.....

You can afford it, and its all about priorities and doing a little bit of reorganising. A bird that costs a few quid more than the cheapest will do at least two meals, and a delicious soup as well.

And it aint just about the bird when it was alive - it is also about the quality of food you are feeding to yourself and your family.

We don't need meat every day. The industry have fooled you well if you think you do ;)

.

No my children do not have to eat chicken but why should they be denied itDenied it? That makes it sound like some kind of human 'right' to consume a relatively nutritionally sh*te protein source which lived a miserable tortured existence before being hung upside down, electrocuted, having its throat slit and then dunked in a faeces and feather hot soup mix - all so children aren't 'denied' putting it in their mouths and using it to build and nourish their growing bodies and minds?? :huh:

I'm not bothered either way. At the end of the day the animal is being reared for me to eat....why should I care if it led a good life or not?

I can barely believe you said that mate.

Did you really mean it or was it something you 'just said?'

I can barely believe you said that mate.

Did you really mean it or was it something you 'just said?'

I mean it. It is livestock, reared for my consumption. I simply think there are far more important issues to concern myself about than whether my food was happy. Sorry if this makes me seem heartless and inhuman to some people, but hey, that's life. I'm not going to put on fake compassion for something that I am going to be quite happy carving up and devouring! The only people who can truely say they show compassion for livestock welfare are vegetarians. Any meat eaters who try to kid themselves that they care should, perhaps, stop eating meat too (after all, if you really cared for the animals you wouldn't ever want them dead at all...would you?)

I'm not bothered either way. At the end of the day the animal is being reared for me to eat....why should I care if it led a good life or not?



Absolutely same with all animals we eat as long as they are cheap and taste ok why care?

I can afford to look after my 5 children very well thankyou very much but like most people I have to live on a budget .

What a ridiculous thing to say unisol .

Why?

You suggested you were skint. I think we'd be skint if we had 5 kids too!

Don't be a hypocrite.

I mean it. It is livestock, reared for my consumption. I simply think there are far more important issues to concern myself about than whether my food was happy. Sorry if this makes me seem heartless and inhuman to some people, but hey, that's life. I'm not going to put on fake compassion for something that I am going to be quite happy carving up and devouring! The only people who can truely say they show compassion for livestock welfare are vegetarians. Any meat eaters who try to kid themselves that they care should, perhaps, stop eating meat too (after all, if you really cared for the animals you wouldn't ever want them dead at all...would you?)

You never mention your thoughts on the crap and chemicals your 'devouring' when your eating the cheapest poor quality meats available?

As i've said before, the animals welfare isn't the only concern, you and your families welfare is also important don't you think?

Animal welfare is important to me, but i'm not fooled into thinking that livestock would be happier if we didn't eat them, if we didn't, they wouldn't be here at all - which some people would think is better than being here living a life of misery for a few weeks then being slaughtered and eaten.

I can see both sides of the argument, as i'm sure most people can.

Hi, Im joining this one pretty late so apologies if this has been mentioned before.

What we need to consider is that free-range is not just "a couple of quid" dearer. It may be in some places but in Morrisons you can get 8 "cheap" chicken breasts for the price of 2 free-range. This was checked out after I watched the programme in question.

Whilst there is this big price difference no matter what campaigning is done people (on the whole) will go for the cheaper option.

The public on the whole are being well educated regarding the food industry and what they do/dont put into the food we eat. When making choices about fresh/organic then these are often more accessable (especially now). The price of organicis often not much more, free-range eggs are not that much different.

While the difference in free-range/cheap chicken is so huge you will never get the masses converting. My suggestion - buy quorn!!! Full of protein, cheap and tasty.

Dont forget - noone has to eat meat. People choose to eat meat.

Why don't some of you price whingers spend less on the <blank> and <blank> you and your kids will no doubt be eating these days, and spend a bit more on properly reared meat! (if you eat meat).
You don't have to look far to see money wasted these days on all sorts of junk food!
some of you have stated you dont care a jot about animal welfare..............the best place for your sort is in the back of a skip!

You never mention your thoughts on the crap and chemicals your 'devouring' when your eating the cheapest poor quality meats available?

As i've said before, the animals welfare isn't the only concern, you and your families welfare is also important don't you think?


I'm not sure at what point I said I only buy the 'cheapest poor quality meats available' in amongst this thread. My first post stated that I am not bothered either way, as in I buy what I like and don't really care whether my food was happy or not. I buy what I can afford, and do not eat meat every day. I am not much of a fan of chicken, prefering beef, pork, lamb or duck. We rarely buy frozen food (the cheapest options), only resprting to stocking the freezer when money is tight due to bills etc. I prefer to eat quality foods, and love to cook good meals. If the meat I am getting is free range or not, I don't care or pay attention to the fact - I buy what I can afford, and what I want to eat... and if you read the post on what i like to eat at restaurants you would garner that certainly don't settle on cheap options (never understood why uncooked meat at a restaurant tends to cost more than cooked - one of those mysteries of catering).

Simply put, I have not brought price into the arguement at all - other protesters have used that excuse. I have simply stated my thoughts that the way my food is reared has little importance in my selection of meats.

FYI: My family probably eat better than a heck of a lot of others, as I love to cook good meals, experiment with different tastes, and think that kids should not be raised on a diet of frozen chips and beans-on-toast. Fresh foods, a good balance of meals, no dodgy economy burgers (you know, 5% meat, the rest onion and water), always have fruit in the house.

WELL TALK ABOUT THIS ITS IMPORTANT (yes I am shouting)

What every body has missed that has not been stated on tv about cheap chicken

IS

Those chickens forced to grow at super rates are bad for our HEALTH and CHILDREN
They are full of hormones and growth promoters ( how else do they make the weight so quick, its in what they eat!!!!)

THIS IS BAD FOR US...

This is why girls start periods at 8 and boys / Girls are so out of proportion ( Fat) for their set ages and cant loose weight
THINK ABOUT IT

Growth hormones in food are just bad news

Dont eat quick growth food you are consuming all those bad growth hormone chemicals into your own body

Help the chickens and help yourself its a crap way to produce food and for £5 you are just as good as buying hormone drugs to harm your body, fertility and hormone balance

Ask why you cant buy CAPON chickens anymore they were full of hormones to change the sex of the bird!!!!!!! and we were eating them till it was banned

See web link

Diethylstilbesterol
It was also used in farming to caponise chickens and increase weight gain in livestock grown for meat. It was also prescribed to transsexuals, ...
www.gender.org.uk/about/04embryo/47_comnt.htm

I buy freerange chicken or freedom foods if freerange isn't available.

I'm not so bothered about organic but much prefer my the meat that I eat to have had a happy life. I buy pork that has lived in woods eating apples, nuts etc.

I keep chickens in my garden for my eggs and believe me you can really taste the difference. The Chavs your welcome to half a dozen as soon as they come on lay again.

I'm now seriously considering raising a few table birds for my family.

I believe that we are on the verge of a huge food revolution in this country. This was highlighted to the masses by HFW and he has been helped by Jamie Oliver and Gordon Ramsey. Allotments are seeing a huge resurgence in popularity and this is all down to people really caring about what they eat.

i've always bought free range and always will as for the freedom range i think it stinks :mad: yeah they have more room yeah they have a few more days to live but they aint free are they ???
i wont eat anything unless i know its been free and lived well.
even tho it's bred for food it should always live well

[QUOTE=While the difference in free-range/cheap chicken is so huge you will never get the masses converting.[/QUOTE]
i think it will ive seen alot of people checking for free range in morrisons this morning and coutless people put the cheap chickens back down

I recall that one of the major changes in the latter half of the 20th century was in the spending habits of the average family. I'm generalising here, but the basic point was that in the 50's/60's the average family spent a 1/2 of the monthly income on food. Now it is more like 1/5. Other luxuries are eating away at the food budget, with the result that families are willing to feed their children poor-quality food and perpetuate poor welfare standards, in return for the HP on the plasma and the new fashion each month.
As food is one of our vital sustenances (along with water and energy) perhaps it should get more priority in our monthly spending?

I am generalising hugely here, but the general impression i get is that a lot of people are willing to lower their standards relating to the food they eat in return for buying each kid a tv and the latest computer game from BrightHouse as well as their fags and booze.
I know what's more important for me.

Animal welfare is important but its not the only issue.

For those that think because of a tight budget its ok to feed kids cheap chicken consider this.

Latest government fugures show that up to 15% of 15 year old are obesce.

There are many factors to this but one has to be the quality of food you eat. If a chicken come to full wait in 38 days how do you think its put that weight on? its not muscle its a huge amount of fat.

Many people think that chicken is a low fat meat. Wrong... a free range chicken that our grandparents knew might be because its bulk is through muscle and natural growth. Battery chickens grow so fast that they are extremely high in saturated fat. Over the last 25 years fat content of pork has dropped. This means that you might as well each what is classed as a fatty meat if your going to buy battery chickens.

So if you don't care about animal welfare thats up to you. You should care about your health and certainly you should care about your childrens health. If you have fat little balls of lard watching the x box, you only have yourself to blame. Drop the packet of chocolate biscuits and use the money to buy a better quality of food for them.

I'm afraid i really don't hold with the "we can't aford it" arguement. Your using budget to justify causing potential damage to your own and your childrens health. That just nonscense.

If you say you can't spend that little extra then post your shopping bill. If your honest you know there will a £1 that could have been saved on crap to spend on good food. Did you really need the donuts? was the ready meal really necessary? Do the kids really need crisps if they are being fed properly?

Its scary when you look in peoples shopping baskets and see some of the mountains of rubbish they have.

!! fresh eggs Sanman. Hmmmmm now your talking.

I recall that one of the major changes in the latter half of the 20th century was in the spending habits of the average family. I'm generalising here, but the basic point was that in the 50's/60's the average family spent a 1/2 of the monthly income on food. Now it is more like 1/5. Other luxuries are eating away at the food budget, with the result that families are willing to feed their children poor-quality food and perpetuate poor welfare standards, in return for the HP on the plasma and the new fashion each month.
As food is one of our vital sustenances (along with water and energy) perhaps it should get more priority in our monthly spending?

I am generalising hugely here, but the general impression i get is that a lot of people are willing to lower their standards relating to the food they eat in return for buying each kid a tv and the latest computer game from BrightHouse as well as their fags and booze.
I know what's more important for me.
this is true basically you get what you pay for :D
i agree totally

I wanted to buy free-range chicken today in Asda - but there wasn't any. Lots of the cheap nasty stuff, but no free range.

Instead of keeping schtum, which is pointless if you're attempting to effect change, I expressed my displeasure at the Customer Services desk.

'We're working on it' I was told.

So, umm, pasta it is then.

but you went for free range and didnt go for the nasty option so my star badge of the month goes to STAGEWALKER weldone mate for having pasta instead of a nasty chicken
any pasta left thats spare :D

Hehe - I always cook enough to feed a small Army anyway :)

I've got to be honest and say that this time last week I would have probably bought regular chicken - but after watching Hugh F.W and taking some time to think about the issues presented - I'm now converted.

I don't care if I'm not a chicken - what (we're) doing to those birds is just plain wrong!

One man cannot change the world - but he can change the world for one man.

your quote is now my signature i love it :D:D

and may i say stagewalker a big well done for not caving in and going for the cheap option ;):)

Glad to be of service Mr Bag.

Better get back on topic or we'll be in trouble. :)

I'm going to watch Jamie Oliver's egg programme thing tonight - so we'll see what that's like. I'm sensing a bit of a revolution though - and not before time.

Well done Hugh F.W

we will lol i'll get banned i'll be watching the egg thing tonight too :D and plz call me andi not MR BAG :D:D:D:D

WELL TALK ABOUT THIS ITS IMPORTANT (yes I am shouting)

What every body has missed that has not been stated on tv about cheap chicken

IS

Those chickens forced to grow at super rates are bad for our HEALTH and CHILDREN
They are full of hormones and growth promoters ( how else do they make the weight so quick, its in what they eat!!!!)

THIS IS BAD FOR US...

This is why girls start periods at 8 and boys / Girls are so out of proportion ( Fat) for their set ages and cant loose weight
THINK ABOUT IT

Growth hormones in food are just bad news

Dont eat quick growth food you are consuming all those bad growth hormone chemicals into your own body

Help the chickens and help yourself its a crap way to produce food and for £5 you are just as good as buying hormone drugs to harm your body, fertility and hormone balance

Ask why you cant buy CAPON chickens anymore they were full of hormones to change the sex of the bird!!!!!!! and we were eating them till it was banned

See web link

Diethylstilbesterol
It was also used in farming to caponise chickens and increase weight gain in livestock grown for meat. It was also prescribed to transsexuals, ...
www.gender.org.uk/about/04embryo/47_comnt.htm

any comments

Q: what grading is chicken??

i buy class a chicken from morrisons and tescos, is this battery or free range? i'm just really rethinking my eating habits but i have frozen chicken in the freezer and at the moment not to keen on eating it! (programmes re stuff like this dont normally bother me but this time its realyl put me off!!)

x

It appears to have had some impact, there were no free range or organic chickens left in Tesco Infirmary Road this morning! Lets just hope it's not a fad.

Q: what grading is chicken??

i buy class a chicken from morrisons and tescos, is this battery or free range? i'm just really rethinking my eating habits but i have frozen chicken in the freezer and at the moment not to keen on eating it! (programmes re stuff like this dont normally bother me but this time its realyl put me off!!)

x
have a look on the label mel it should give you some idea if the chicken is free range not caged
there is also a chicken called freedom range which is endorsed by the rspca which is basically a chicken that is kept in a barn with more room but still basically sick
in my eyes the chicken should be free to roam in a natural enviroment and live a kind of life it was meant to have :)

Predictably, I'm a veggie and have been for 23 years, so no, I certainly don't fancy eating raw or cooked meat. By true omnivore, I was referring to the differences seen in our digestive systems, which is a more accurate distinguishing factor. Humans have a digestive system more similar to a herbivore than anything else (long, with digestion commencing in the mouth), and our teeth are actually ill-designed to tear into flesh or chew bone. We have just adapted to eating meat, and hence find it more palatable if cooked. A chimp, for example, as a true omnivore, is quite happy to eat meat raw.

To bring things back on topic, I think the TV coverage of what goes on in intensive farming is a good thing. It was learning of such cruelty that prompted my decision to give up meat, as I would consider myself a hypocrite otherwise. I did not want to pay someone to keep animals in appalling conditions and then kill them for me, which is what you are doing if you purchase intensively reared animals. The health implications to the consumer, as pointed out by previous posters, are also of great concern. Intensive/horribly artificial production methods have a way of coming back to haunt us, as it did with BSE, when we fed naturally herbivorous cows bits from other cows.

Hi,

I agree with your second point, that there are health issues in how we raise our animal foods, but disagree on your first point; the arguments go back and forth about what we are designed to eat and digest, and there are plenty of arguments for meat-eating as an essential part of human evolutionary development, so I guess we'll just disagree on this.

Ade

Hi,

I agree with your second point, that there are health issues in how we raise our animal foods, but disagree on your first point; the arguments go back and forth about what we are designed to eat and digest, and there are plenty of arguments for meat-eating as an essential part of human evolutionary development, so I guess we'll just disagree on this.

Ade

Happy to disagree on that point Ade65 :) It's the issue of whether animal welfare matters or not that I wont compromise on. I'm saddened by the few posts from people who obviously don't care two hoots, but such is life :(
Don't know how representative the poll is, but am heartened by many of the above posts from folk that genuinely seem determined to improve the lot of chickens by insisting on free range.
I was in Netto today and the chilled chicken cabinet was hock burn city; it really turned my stomach :gag:

WELL TALK ABOUT THIS ITS IMPORTANT (yes I am shouting)

What every body has missed that has not been stated on tv about cheap chicken

IS

Those chickens forced to grow at super rates are bad for our HEALTH and CHILDREN
They are full of hormones and growth promoters ( how else do they make the weight so quick, its in what they eat!!!!)

THIS IS BAD FOR US...

You might wanna stop shouting and read the posts.... For example http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=3019801#post3019801

It was nice to see all the people on the HFW program telling the camera they couldnt possibly afford to buy free range chicken, pleading poverty, while sat in the pub.

Must be one of those free pubs.

Price checked on asda website;

Free Range: £3.00 per kg
Standard: £2.28 per kg

Really breaks the bank eh? Wouldnt want people to have 1 pint less, or half a pack of fags!

Q: what grading is chicken??

x

The grade a to c doesn't have any bearing on how the chicken is reared. It is to do with the quality of the end produce.

Grade A - top quality - no broken bones or torn skin or bruised meat
Grade B - minor tears and bruises. A break or two
Grade C - low grade. Very bruised/damaged/broken. Usually only good for deep-frying techniques of cooking as used by many southern frieds or KFC (the frying softens the broken bones, lessening the chance of choking, whilst also disguising the bruises)

If an item is free range it will say so elsewhere on the label.

Happy to disagree on that point Ade65 :) It's the issue of whether animal welfare matters or not that I wont compromise on. I'm saddened by the few posts from people who obviously don't care two hoots, but such is life :(
Don't know how representative the poll is, but am heartened by many of the above posts from folk that genuinely seem determined to improve the lot of chickens by insisting on free range.
I was in Netto today and the chilled chicken cabinet was hock burn city; it really turned my stomach :gag:

For animal welfare I certainly don't like to see pictures of intensively-farmed chickens. From a human health point I don't like to hear about growth hormones being added to animals.

Ideally we'd go back to free-range foodstocks. The problem ultimately comes down to feeding the population though; without modern farming methods could we produce enough food of animal and vegetable stock to feed a modern populace? - I don't know and I've not seen any studies. I do know we could all probably eat a bit less :) But could we produce enough to feed us all if we reverted to older farming methods?

Free range animals should also theoretically be better for us as they would have a lot lower fat content.

Organic is a seperate issue.....anyone reading the weekend FT can only have had their eyes opened as to what 'organic' can be depending upon the source. And there is also the argument that 'organic' as a word has just been hijacked in this context.

Ade

I'm suprised that some people were unaware of how chickens (and other food) is produced, did they have visions of picture-postcard farms with happy animals skipping through green fields ?

definately on the free range foods now. There are no excuses not to be:

twenty cigarettes - £5
nice whole free range chicken - £5

I'm not alluding to anything, but i think you get my point.

I wonder if Sainsburys put Mr Oliver up to doing these programs to help shift their organic products ?

It does seem odd to slag-off supermarkets and be paid (a hell of a lot) by one at the same time.

I'm suprised that some people were unaware of how chickens (and other food) is produced, did they have visions of picture-postcard farms with happy animals skipping through green fields ?

That's the power of advertising for you. Imagine my horror when I discovered that the 4 synchronised dancing cows on the Anchor Butter adverts was only one dancing cow made to look as if there are four of them. It sure opened my eyes, I can tell you.

I love the way nobody cared until Jamie Oliver said we should do...

Check out Sheepdrove.com which is an organic farm you can shop online with. My mum orders a big batch every so often and it all comes frozen so she fills the freezer with it. It's a big outlay to do it in one go, but once you've got it, you don't need to buy any more meat, so your weekly shopping bill will come down. It tastes fantastic as well.

Another good place is Heatherhill Farm meats, it's the butchers in Dore Village. Not organic this one, but a very good and reputable farm which is local. Well worth a look at it for the red meat.

We only ever eat free ranged chicken, if it isnt we don't eat it, the butchers behind Nonas Ecci rd is fantastic, yes i pay between £10 and £13 for a chicken, but i also pay that for a joint of beef lamb etc,

and as for never cared till Jamie oliver did, isnt true at all all he has done is heightened awareness to a problem that has been around for years that many people do know and have always cared about, if it has made more people care since for their own health and walfare of animals he has hardly done a bad thing has he?

I love the way nobody cared until Jamie Oliver said we should do...

I don't think that's true; these things take time. There were successful campaigns against veal and fois gras in this country. The free range thing's being going on for years, the BSE crisis raised a lot of awareness.

A large number of chef's such as HFW and Rick Stein have been changing attitudes about the quality of food for ages. The school dinners programme was the most effective vehicle there's ever been by a long way though; pure genius.

Well I always buy free range or at a minimum RSPCA welfare chicken and have always bought free range eggs. What I hadn't thought about though was the egg in other products, and will be looking on labels for that and avoiding battery eggs where possible, or not buying the product instead.

This probably isnt going to be a very popular vote, but I could care less where my chicken came from, I just dont want to pay through my nose for it.

I mean seriously, I've far more important things to worry about then whether the chicken that made my kiev had access to a playground with free sky tv and access to the shopping channels.

Also, another good one that we buy on line from is lowerhurstfarm.co.uk - no chicken there but very good lamb and beef - all organic and it's near Buxton so local to the area. This comes frozen to stock your freezer.

Sheepdrove.com might come fresh actually, but you can buy a selection box and freeze it.

This probably isnt going to be a very popular vote, but I could care less where my chicken came from, I just dont want to pay through my nose for it.



I kind of agree, I would buy free range oganic chickens if they wern't £13 a throw. They cost nothing like that much on the continent so why are they so expensive here, unless they are just cashing in on the latest fashion and taking us consumers for a ride ?

We have being buying free range chicken and eggs for years. Will try to convert the couldn't care less brigade with this, they taste far better so why eat tasteless crap when you can get the real deal? :confused:

It's what gets served up when eating out that bothers me, how many menu's offer free range?

I kind of agree, I would buy free range oganic chickens if they wern't £13 a throw. They cost nothing like that much on the continent so why are they so expensive here, unless they are just cashing in on the latest fashion and taking us consumers for a ride ?

Nail.Head.Hit.

I think the difference in attitude on the continent probably plays its part too. I cant imagine the French/Spanish/Germans etc. being that bothered about the conditions that their poultry are being kept in.(Probably a massive generalisation, I know)

Whereas in this country, with its fanciful notions of animal welfare, producers know that we will pay over the odds for meat if they can imply in some way that the animal was 'happy' prior to its killing.

I think we need some specific guidelines on what "free range" means too.

I think the difference in attitude on the continent probably plays its part too. I cant imagine the French/Spanish/Germans etc. being that bothered about the conditions that their poultry are being kept in.(Probably a massive generalisation, I know)

Well they have veal crates and force fed geese, so perhaps not.

The reason factory farming was invented was to meet the huge demand for chickens with the limited space the Uk has (no so much of a problem on the continent), what will happen if everyone wants free range, how will the farms produce enough without turning large amounts of farmland into chcicken runs ?

We don't buy 'free range' but the middle option is well affordable, where the hens are less intensively farmed and have an outside run. (R.S.P.C.A welfare)We've had these for years and the difference in taste and texture is very noticable.

I'm pretty sure that with a little imagination, anybody could modify their budget to allow for the extra quid or so that these hens cost. Try dropping the odd cream cake, bag of crisps or air freshener from the list, the difference will soon be made up.

As for the extra space that would be required to convert the whole industry to this kind of farming, what with the trend towards meat imports (E.U.) most U.K. farms are extremely land rich often being paid sizeable sums for 'set aside' where the farmers are on a really good number for doing virtually nowt.

Mr Fearnley Whittingstall and Mr Oliver showed true courage by screaning their recent progs.

As Mr Oliver has already found to his dismay, some housewives take great offence when they're advised not to feed their kids utter trash that most SENCIBLE people wouldn't give to a dog. After all, who do they think they are? Mere men, second rate chefs, who don't have the slightest idea how difficult it is to raise a family these days!
Anyway, isn't it time we faced the fact that if we are going to eat meat we have a moral obligation to, at least, not torture the animals before we slaughter them? We are after all, an intelligent and compassionate species - aren't we?

P.S. At least in this country, with our 'FANCIFUL notions of animal welfare', we have a massive number of people working against wanton cruelty and have had for DONKEYS years.

Anyway, isn't it time we faced the fact that if we are going to eat meat we have a moral obligation to, at least, not torture the animals before we slaughter them? We are after all, an intelligent and compassionate species - aren't we?

Nail.Head.Hit.
:)

Mr Fearnley Whittingstall and Mr Oliver showed true courage by screaning their recent progs.


As long as they don't both cash-in with a book of recipes based on the programs, like Oliver did after he "exposed" school dinners, then thats fine.

We don't buy 'free range' but the middle option is well affordable, where the hens are less intensively farmed and have an outside run. (R.S.P.C.A welfare)We've had these for years and the difference in taste and texture is very noticable.

I'm pretty sure that with a little imagination, anybody could modify their budget to allow for the extra quid or so that these hens cost. Try dropping the odd cream cake, bag of crisps or air freshener from the list, the difference will soon be made up.

As for the extra space that would be required to convert the whole industry to this kind of farming, what with the trend towards meat imports (E.U.) most U.K. farms are extremely land rich often being paid sizeable sums for 'set aside' where the farmers are on a really good number for doing virtually nowt.

Mr Fearnley Whittingstall and Mr Oliver showed true courage by screaning their recent progs.

As Mr Oliver has already found to his dismay, some housewives take great offence when they're advised not to feed their kids utter trash that most SENCIBLE people wouldn't give to a dog. After all, who do they think they are? Mere men, second rate chefs, who don't have the slightest idea how difficult it is to raise a family these days!
Anyway, isn't it time we faced the fact that if we are going to eat meat we have a moral obligation to, at least, not torture the animals before we slaughter them? We are after all, an intelligent and compassionate species - aren't we?

But what evidence is there that feeding your children free-range chicken has any benefit to their health?

As for the moral argument, well, I'm happy to decide on my own moral boundries, rather than have some middle-class cook (HF-W) tell me what I should and shouldnt feel when it comes to the living conditions of my food.

And besides, according to this (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/15/nhens115.xml) report, the chickens themselves dont seem too affected by their living conditions either.

(PS im not happy about some of the terminology used in the report. I think use of words like 'Happy' in reference to the mental state of an animal is unhelpful)

But what evidence is there that feeding your children free-range chicken has any benefit to their health?

As for the moral argument, well, I'm happy to decide on my own moral boundries, rather than have some middle-class cook (HF-W) tell me what I should and shouldnt feel when it comes to the living conditions of my food.

And besides, according to this (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/15/nhens115.xml) report, the chickens themselves dont seem too affected by their living conditions either.

(PS im not happy about some of the terminology used in the report. I think use of words like 'Happy' in reference to the mental state of an animal is unhelpful)

That would be the report by Proff J.Downing who in his research groups anuual report said.

"On behalf of the Foundation I wish to thank RIRDC Chicken Meat Programme and the Australian Egg Corporation (AECL) for their financial support over the years"

If you see a report that goes against the norm always look behind the report to see who funded it. It like a climate change report being funded by BP and Ford. Do you really expect it to bite the hand that feeds.

No bias there then. :suspect:

What evidence is there; well alot. If nothing else they are higher in saturated fat because of the excesive weight gain.

And we wonder why kids are obesce. Never mind just keep filling the trolly with chincken nuggets and cola.

Went Shopping at Sainsbury's yesterday.

Couldn't see a single free-range chicken and didn't look like any empty gaps for them either.

Ended up buying some corn-fed skinless breasts - approx. £3.50 for 2 which is pretty steep!

Had one for lunch today and it tasted MUCH better than the pumped with water cheapo stuff of previous.

Bit surprised at Sainsbury's - i thought they had the better attitude on JO program?!?

Going to try Waitrose next week.

don't eat chicken but I do buy free range eggs and have done ever since a few years ago when I cracked a caged egg into the pan to fry and it was completely red with blood :gag: haven't used caged since

[QUOTE=Annoni_mouse;3025258
But what evidence is there that feeding your children free-range chicken has any benefit to their health? [QUOTE]

You may not have quite understood me, - it is primarily the health of the ANIMALS that concern me in this instance - not the health of we poor humans. Though, there are a number of ways in which more 'naturally' produced foodstuffs are healthier.

As for the 'middle class cooks' who, as you point out, have no right to tell you what to eat - I don't blame you for being indignant; who do they think they are? I'm sure you are a far more knowledgable and (well) rounded person than they are.
Perhaps you might like to team up with a few of the imbeciles who enjoy pushing beefburgers through railings to their overweight and undernourished offspring - the nerve of these goody goodies, they should mind their own business..............................

Going to try Waitrose next week.

Get ready to spend then, yesterday it was £10.50 for 4 small chicken breasts.

That would be the report by Proff J.Downing who in his research groups anuual report said.

"On behalf of the Foundation I wish to thank RIRDC Chicken Meat Programme and the Australian Egg Corporation (AECL) for their financial support over the years"

If you see a report that goes against the norm always look behind the report to see who funded it. It like a climate change report being funded by BP and Ford. Do you really expect it to bite the hand that feeds.

No bias there then. :suspect:

What evidence is there; well alot. If nothing else they are higher in saturated fat because of the excesive weight gain.

And we wonder why kids are obesce. Never mind just keep filling the trolly with chincken nuggets and cola.

Ah, but is not the problem there with pre-prepared food rather than whether the chicken used is free range or not? If the chicken in the chicken nugget were free range, they would still be deep fried and battered - negating any health benefit of using a free range bird in the first place (If any even exist).

To suggest that ethical treatment of animals will have any bearing on the obecity crisis is at best disengenius, I feel.

As for the bias of the report, well, frankly, I'd be impressed if you could show me a report/study which wasnt funded by one group or another to further a political or moral view point. That would be a rare bird indeed:)

As long as they don't both cash-in with a book of recipes based on the programs, like Oliver did after he "exposed" school dinners, then thats fine.

why not? that's the way they make their money, that's their job, they're just doing it! Imagine if someone was indignant at you making money for doing something worthwhile, why should all good things be done for free? Surely it should be the other way round! Anyway, I'd find it quite useful to know things like how to make the most of a whole chicken. I bought a free range one the other day and had a lovely roast but I know I wasted loads after by chucking the leftovers, because I wasn't sure what to do with them. In the past people would make the most of a bit of meat!!

[QUOTE=Annoni_mouse;3025258
But what evidence is there that feeding your children free-range chicken has any benefit to their health? [QUOTE]

You may not have quite understood me, - it is primarily the health of the ANIMALS that concern me in this instance - not the health of we poor humans. Though, there are a number of ways in which more 'naturally' produced foodstuffs are healthier.

As for the 'middle class cooks' who, as you point out, have no right to tell you what to eat - I don't blame you for being indignant; who do they think they are? I'm sure you are a far more knowledgable and (well) rounded person than they are.
Perhaps you might like to team up with a few of the imbeciles who enjoy pushing beefburgers through railings to their overweight and undernourished offspring - the nerve of these goody goodies, they should mind their own business..............................

How do you know I'm NOT a more well rounded person? And for that matter, who are you to judge?

Quite how you got from my statement regarding not being told what to eat to putting me in league with the (Killamarsh?) school mothers is quite beyond me?

Except that again, you are making the mistake of linking poor eating habits, which is in my opinion a social and cultural issue, to this one, when there is no link between the two.

why not? that's the way they make their money, that's their job, they're just doing it! Imagine if someone was indignant at you making money for doing something worthwhile, why should all good things be done for free?

Sorry, I'm not a fan of people getting personally rich on the back of a cause.

It's like going on a charity run then taking half the money you raise as your fee for doing the run.

IMO.

Except that again, you are making the mistake of linking poor eating habits, which is in my opinion a social and cultural issue, to this one, when there is no link between the two.

No, what they are saying is if you don't feed your kids organic, free range, wholemeal, fair trade food you are a very, very bad parent.

No, what they are saying is if you don't feed your kids organic, free range, wholemeal, fair trade food you are a very, very bad parent.

I think you might be right:)

What difference does it make if they make some money out of it? I think they should be rewarded for the effort and work that goes in to the programmes which try to educate the public on issues that would otherwise stay in the background. I understand a lot of the profits from Jamie Oliver's cookbooks go to his Fifteen Foundation which is a charity to help disadvantaged young people, so he is putting something back.

Also, these cookbooks help to further promote their cause. If you look at HFW's book 'Meat', it's 30% cookbook, 70% education and information on farming / slaughtering etc. It's a fantastic book for anyone with an interest in better understanding where our meat comes from.

Sorry, I'm not a fan of people getting personally rich on the back of a cause.

It's like going on a charity run then taking half the money you raise as your fee for doing the run.

IMO.

I think that's an odd way of looking at it. They care about food and where it comes from. They want to highlight an issue. They are also successful business people who know what interests the public and how to make money. If you do something for charity of course you do it for free. They are not doing this for charity, they're doing something worthwhile for animals and public knowledge, I think they deserve to earn a bit for that! I think it's more of an outrage the money stupid celebrities earn- what do they contibute to society?
I think it's odd that as a society the general opinion is that the most caring jobs should receive the least money and it is seen as right that worthy work should be poorly paid, what an odd way of showing how we value something.

Seven pages in and the depth of casual ignorance and mis-information on the thread is astounding, even after apparently seeing a telly program that explained it. :shakes:


How many people think that they are actually buying battery chickens to eat?

Sorry, I'm not a fan of people getting personally rich on the back of a cause.

It's like going on a charity run then taking half the money you raise as your fee for doing the run.

IMO.

I must admit I was initiallt taken in....it seemed that Jamie and Hugh were just personally angry about animal welfare....until Hugh blubbed in his "standard" chicken house. He earlier quite happily broke baby chicks necks with joyful enthusiasm.

I must admit I was initiallt taken in....it seemed that Jamie and Hugh were just personally angry about animal welfare....until Hugh blubbed in his "standard" chicken house. He earlier quite happily broke baby chicks necks with joyful enthusiasm.

I think joyful enthusiasm was the exact opposite of what he felt.
Hugh's passion for animal welfare is genuine, and that should gain him respect for what he does even if you do not share it.

They are also successful business people who know what interests the public and how to make money.

I think thats the relevant part.

But replace "interests" with "scares"

BTW I've seen a few of Hugh's programs and he's never bludded after killing anything before.

I think thats the relevant part.

But replace "interests" with "scares"

BTW I've seen a few of Hugh's programs and he's never bludded after killing anything before.

So cynical! Do you think they don't really care about animals then or want the general public to actually think about where their food comes from and what they are putting into their bodies?
Or are financial gain and good work mutually exclusive in your book?

I think joyful enthusiasm was the exact opposite of what he felt.
Hugh's passion for animal welfare is genuine, and that should gain him respect for what he does even if you do not share it.

He started off quite happily wringing necks...and then my impression was that he thought it might not look too good and seemed to change direction. "Joyful enthusiasm" might have been a bit of poetic licence...I'll give you that ! I am wondering why these two are doing it though - I feel sure they will be making money out of it somehow, and that does dilute the message in my view.

I actually agree with the main point however, and all this stuff about not being able to afford organic or free range is feeble. If you cannot afford free range meat, just eat less meat. It is probably bad for your health to eat every day. You can eat even organic veg cheaply.

So cynical! Do you think they don't really care about animals then or want the general public to actually think about where their food comes from and what they are putting into their bodies?
Or are financial gain and good work mutually exclusive in your book?

If they had been banging on about it for the last 10 years I would think differently, but they haven't, all of a sudden. now free range stuff is becoming more popular, and supermarkets are selling it, they launch into this campaign, one of them even works for a supermarket.

I am cynical, yes.

He started off quite happily wringing necks...and then my impression was that he thought it might not look too good and seemed to change direction. "Joyful enthusiasm" might have been a bit of poetic licence...I'll give you that ! I am wondering why these two are doing it though - I feel sure they will be making money out of it somehow, and that does dilute the message in my view.

I actually agree with the main point however, and all this stuff about not being able to afford organic or free range is feeble. If you cannot afford free range meat, just eat less meat. It is probably bad for your health to eat every day. You can eat even organic veg cheaply.

I've seen quite a few of Hugh's programmes where he has been involved in the slaughter of animals he has reared, and it always upsets him a great deal. However in the case of his own animals he knows that they have been reared humanely, are a quality product and the end is justified.
I think what prompted the 'breakdown', shall we call it, was the sheer volume of birds he had to kill each day, and the fact that they had a poor quality life due to the choices he made for the programme.
Killing even day-old chicks is not easy at all. He would definitely not take it lightly.

If they had been banging on about it for the last 10 years I would think differently, but they haven't, all of a sudden. now free range stuff is becoming more popular, and supermarkets are selling it, they launch into this campaign, one of them even works for a supermarket.

I am cynical, yes.

Hugh FW has been banging on about it for his whole career virtually - since his first book was published in 1994 anyway.

I wonder if people would feel the same about farmed fish, what fish not being cute and fluffy like lambs, chicks and calves.

If they had been banging on about it for the last 10 years I would think differently, but they haven't, all of a sudden. now free range stuff is becoming more popular, and supermarkets are selling it, they launch into this campaign, one of them even works for a supermarket.

I am cynical, yes.

I get your point but I guess I'd rather buy into that spin which encourages people to think about the origins and sort of "goodness" of what they are eating rather than the other money making schemes out there which are based on nothing of any substance.

You mean those fish that are systematically drowned in the nets, or perhaps the shrimp, prawn and crab that are dismembered whilst still alive? Perhaps you mean the farmed fish that are fed growth enhancers in their cages? Or perhaps just the millions of tonnes of fish that are chucked back dead into the sea because they happen to be the wrong species or too juvenile?

You mean those fish that are systematically drowned in the nets, or perhaps the shrimp, prawn and crab that are dismembered whilst still alive? Perhaps you mean the farmed fish that are fed growth enhancers? Or perhaps just the millions of tonnes f fish that are chucked back dead into the sea because they happen to be the wrong species or too juvenile?

yes those, do you think people will be blubbing at the death of a few hundred crabs ?

yes those, do you think people will be blubbing at the death of a few hundred crabs ?

The ones eaten by vegetarians ?

I think there are quite a few different groups of people, some of which are motivated by fluffyness and don't want to see things killed.
I'm motivated by wanting to eat a high-quality meat product from an animal that has been raised in humane conditions and preferably with minimal environmental impact.
I have no problem with animals being killed for me to eat, but I only eat meat and fish when I can afford it.
I think a lot of people are the same.

Handily though I have an uncanny streak of luck at meat raffles in my parents local. Fills the freezer a treat!

You'll be pleased to know that Jamie show us all how to cook live lobster in his Naked Chef book series :)

You'll be pleased to know that Jamie show us all how to cook live lobster in his Naked Chef book series :)

I asume it's very humane ?

We TRY and eat only free range chicken .. they come from the local butcher in the village who always lets you know the name of the farmer and farm that bred them .. (This is mainly becasue of the taste - but now, after watching the "chicken" programmes last week, I'm kinda glad we do)

As humane as a captive bolt, electrocution or havign your neck pulled.

Bog standard chicken from supermarkets just doesn't cut it with me, I was once told "There's no such thing as cheap chicken, just very expensive water". It's still true.

I just don't think the cheap meat options in supermarkets are nice, the exception is maybe the chicken wings.

Don't get me started on the stringy tough rubbish that supermarkets call minced beef. It doesn't break up when fried. My local butchers cheapest mince is so much tastier and better than the dearest mince I've ever bought from a supermarket. I've tried Tesco, Sainsbury's and Waitrose's mince, all are terrible.

I would suggest to those who can, go to your local butcher, I've raved about the Butcher near Hunter's Bar Roundabout for years. (Not Roneys, who are far too expensive, the other one).

Bog standard chicken from supermarkets just doesn't cut it with me, I was once told "There's no such thing as cheap chicken, just very expensive water". It's still true.

I just don't think the cheap meat options in supermarkets are nice, the exception is maybe the chicken wings.

Don't get me started on the stringy tough rubbish that supermarkets call minced beef. It doesn't break up when fried. My local butchers cheapest mince is so much tastier and better than the dearest mince I've ever bought from a supermarket. I've tried Tesco, Sainsbury's and Waitrose's mince, all are terrible.

I would suggest to those who can, go to your local butcher, I've raved about the Butcher near Hunter's Bar Roundabout for years. (Not Roneys, who are far too expensive, the other one).

I (briefly) worked in a butchers in my teens. The stories I could tell you about minced beef and 'fresh' meat would make your eyes bulge:)

I asume it's very humane ?

when cooking live lobsters you usually put them in the freezer beforehand so they "go to sleep" then when you cook them they cannot feel a thing

Definatley would only buy free range. Or just from waitrose as they seem the most ethical.

I watched Jamie's programme and got really annoyed with some lardy woman who clearly eats whatever is put in front of her and then some who said she didn't care and she was on a low income blah blah blah...

I would much rather my kids ate healthy meat from free range chickens than absolute rubbish. People like her act like it's a human right to eat meat that costs under a fiver- it isn't.

I watched Jamie's programme and got really annoyed with some lardy woman who clearly eats whatever is put in front of her and then some who said she didn't care and she was on a low income blah blah blah...


I also like the way they have imbedded the though in peoples minds that if you don't eat the expensive free range stuff you will definately get fat and so will your kids.

Thats very persuasive.

I think there are quite a few different groups of people, some of which are motivated by fluffyness and don't want to see things killed.
I'm motivated by wanting to eat a high-quality meat product from an animal that has been raised in humane conditions and preferably with minimal environmental impact.
I have no problem with animals being killed for me to eat, but I only eat meat and fish when I can afford it.
I think a lot of people are the same.

Handily though I have an uncanny streak of luck at meat raffles in my parents local. Fills the freezer a treat!

Absolutely Beckelina.
Though, those who accuse rational, fair minded people of being motivated by 'fluffyness' are just demonstrating how weak their arguments really are.
Is it really too unthinkable to pay a couple of quid more for a better quality product that has at least been able to exercise basic instincts and to see the light of day?
I do wonder why these junk eaters are getting so upset and emotional, maybe they resent opening their wallets for ANY reason - let alone for the welfare of another life form.

All of this nonsense about Hugh 'happily' killing birds with 'joyous abandon' and then crying (for the camera) at killing a few chickens.
The point is completely lost for them. Which was that the high death rate of these birds was completely unnecessary and caused by there rapid weight gain and unnatural living conditions. (He really is a wimp though isn't he, that Hugh?) Crying - ha - what a wimp.

People who can tolerate the appaling treatment of livestock in this way just for the sake of a couple of quid really are as bad as the Killamarsh junk food mothers in that they really don't give a sh*t - about their own health, the health of their families or the welfare of animals generally.

Definatley would only buy free range. Or just from waitrose as they seem the most ethical.

I watched Jamie's programme and got really annoyed with some lardy woman who clearly eats whatever is put in front of her and then some who said she didn't care and she was on a low income blah blah blah...

I would much rather my kids ate healthy meat from free range chickens than absolute rubbish. People like her act like it's a human right to eat meat that costs under a fiver- it isn't.

Again the fallacious link between animal welfare and obesity:huh:

It may not be a human right to eat cheap meat, but the decision to do so should be left to the individual, not the whims of the media forwarding the latest cause du jour.

I do wonder why these junk eaters are getting so upset and emotional, maybe they resent opening their wallets for ANY reason - let alone for the welfare of another life form.


Surely if you realy cared you would be vegetarian ?

Smugly tucking into a free range lamb that had a good life still required another life form to be slaughtered.

There isn't a link between animal welfare and obesity, but I think there's a real likelihood that there is a link between food & nutrition awareness (and dare I say it responsibility)and obesity, along the lines of people knowing how to prepare food using fresh fruit and vegetables, reducing additives, salt, sugar and processed foods, as well as home economics.
I think certain 'celebrity' chefs can teach us a lot about how to get the best nutrition (and therefore address health issues and obesity) through being more aware of food sourcing, quality and usage and also how to cook.
Even if people are determined to buy cheap, lesser quality produce then don't spurn all the knowledge and information that is out there - we can all benefit by eating nicer food, getting a healtheir diet and maybe saving money!

I think certain 'celebrity' chefs can teach us a lot about how to get the best nutrition (and therefore address health issues and obesity) through being more aware of food sourcing, quality and usage.


The Two Fat Ladies are my favourite celebrity chefs.

Surely if you realy cared you would be vegetarian ?

Smugly tucking into a free range lamb that had a good life still required another life form to be slaughtered.
You make it sound like when the animals are slaughtered it's some kind of blood bath! There is a big difference between being vegetarian and having a moral issue with killing animals for meat, and being a meat eater who is happy that animals are raised for food but wants to make sure they are raised properly in good conditions and slaughtered locally with minimal stress. If they are killed properly by people who know what they are doing, it is done very quickly and without pain, so the image of a poor animal being hacked at is simply not true.

Surely if you realy cared you would be vegetarian ?

Smugly tucking into a free range lamb that had a good life still required another life form to be slaughtered.

It's about approaching it in a practical way.
I want to eat meat, therefore animals have to be killed.
However, I can do what I can to ensure that the animals were reared with the minimum distress, in order to give them a better life and to get me a nicer end product.
It might cost more, but then I love food and happily spend most of my small income on it, and besides, that's what quality costs.
Buying British is also something I do.

I also like the way they have imbedded the though in peoples minds that if you don't eat the expensive free range stuff you will definately get fat and so will your kids.

Thats very persuasive.

Slightly seperate point bt organic milk has a much higher Omega 3 content so there is a good chance that organic chicken or other products have similar benefits.

Slightly seperate point bt organic milk has a much higher Omega 3 content so there is a good chance that organic chicken or other products have similar benefits.

Perhaps, but drinking organic milk won't make you thin if you're also stuffing organic chocolate cake down you neck by the spadefull.

Thats the problem, they try to make out that organic = healthy, organic chips and organic white bread butties will still make you fat.

Again the fallacious link between animal welfare and obesity:huh:

It may not be a human right to eat cheap meat, but the decision to do so should be left to the individual, not the whims of the media forwarding the latest cause du jour.

Personally, I would ENCOURAGE you to eat the cheapest meat posible - the consequences could be truly pleasing.

That you can so easily treat the genuinely well intentioned efforts of Hugh F.W. and
Jamie O. not to mention millions of animal rights activists and millions more ordinary people as 'media whim' says it all - about you.

Perhaps, but drinking organic milk won't make you thin if you're also stuffing organic chocolate cake down you neck by the spadefull.

Thats the problem, they try to make out that organic = healthy, organic chips and organic white bread butties will still make you fat.

I don't think they ever said anything different, they have said that they caged chicken's have a high fat content so they will be worse for you.

Surely if you realy cared you would be vegetarian ?

Smugly tucking into a free range lamb that had a good life still required another life form to be slaughtered.

I NEVER eat meat 'smugly' only with great relish (no not Hendersons) and fervour.

Your argument is sad and unsound as well as being miles off topic.
Try to pay attention - we are talking about the rearing of hens and the small extra cost the would be necessary to rear them in a more humane way.

I don't think they ever said anything different, they have said that they caged chicken's have a high fat content so they will be worse for you.

But they don't give you proper figures, what amount of fat is "high", it might be higher than a comparable organic chicken, but that doesn't mean it will kill you after one mouthfull. If you have a properly balanced diet you can eat anything, no matter how "high" in fat it is, if you eat it in moderation, they never say that though, it's always "this is bad - don't eat it, ever, eat this organic version instead, it's great for you"

Personally, I would ENCOURAGE you to eat the cheapest meat posible - the consequences could be truly pleasing.

That you can so easily treat the genuinely well intentioned efforts of Hugh F.W. and
Jamie O. not to mention millions of animal rights activists and millions more ordinary people as 'media whim' says it all - about you.

Millions of animal rights activists? really?

Millions of animal rights activists? really?

Can't say whether you're surprised at there being MILLIONS of animal rights activists who have been concerned re the rearing of hens for MANY years or if you are suggesting that I might be wrong.
Which?

If you can't afford to eat free range chicken breasts then buy thighs instead. I've just bought 3 thighs (which feed two of us) from the butchers in Crookes (Dickinson's I think, opposite Punchbowl) and it only cost £2.15.

Chicken thighs are delicious in currys and casseroles and free range thighs are far superior in taste to supermarket breast fillets. I once put both in a curry and you could really tell the difference. I vowed never to eat supermarket and to stick with free range again.

I don't think they ever said anything different, they have said that they caged chicken's have a high fat content so they will be worse for you.

Are you confusing meat birds with egg birds?

You see this is where the arguments get much more confused. You don't buy a chicken at the supermarket that has been a battery laying bird. That's not so convenient for Jamie's campaign though, so perhaps he's happy to let confusion reign. I wonder when the next book is coming out? ;)

Are you confusing meat birds with egg birds?

You see this is where the arguments get much more confused. You don't buy a chicken at the supermarket that has been a battery laying bird. That's not so convenience for Jamie's campaign though, so perhaps he's happy to let confusion reign. I wonder when the next book is coming out? ;)

I was just pointing out that other dairy products which are organic have been proven to be better for you. I did say it was a seperate point.
:)

Fair enough :)

I'd certainly not argue that some meat is better than others but I feel that there is massive cynical manipulation going on here... all the in the name of TV and book deals.


For the record, I didn't see the program but I bet I've spent more time in chicken sheds than 99.9% of folk on SF... or Jamie Oliver.

Personally, I would ENCOURAGE you to eat the cheapest meat posible - the consequences could be truly pleasing.

That you can so easily treat the genuinely well intentioned efforts of Hugh F.W. and
Jamie O. not to mention millions of animal rights activists and millions more ordinary people as 'media whim' says it all - about you.

What a thoroughly unpleasant person you are.

I wouldn't concern myself with the consequences of my eating cheap meat if I were you - If there is any justice in the world, your smug sense of self importance and intolerable pomposity will finish you off long before the effects of eating Asda smart price chicken do for me:wave:

So much personal abuse flying about. I would but free range chicken if I could afford to. My children like chicken in all shapes and forms. The only free range chicken usually available is a whole chicken. I'm not much good at chopping it into bits to make chicken kiev etc.. so unless companies start making free range fried chicken etc the only chicken my children would get would be roast and meals made with the bits after. If there was free range prepared chicken not much dearer I would buy it. I always buy free range eggs but they are reasonably cheap and easy to find. I try and give my children a healthy diet several kinds of fruit and vegetables, keeping fat and sugar to a reasonable level, no snack food except fresh or dried fruit. I can't afford free range prices. I hate the thought of cows who suffer pain all their lives because their udders are too big. I'd like all pork to be free range too. I don't buy cod or haddock as the stocks are endangered. I do my best but my children have to come first. What with fare trade, pesticides on fruit and veg. If I tried to be totally ethical my children would starve. All those smug people who always buy free range and organic do know that it has been proved that many of the products are shipped in cheaply from abroad and then labled free range organic because they can make a terrific profit. Ask me to lobby my MP to ban all intensive farming and give the farmer a fair price so he/she doesn't have to over produce to make a living and I'm with you all the way.

when cooking live lobsters you usually put them in the freezer beforehand so they "go to sleep" then when you cook them they cannot feel a thing

Has a lobster verified this?!

Has a lobster verified this?!

ahhh i love the Sheffield Forum! :hihi::hihi:

Can't say whether you're surprised at there being MILLIONS of animal rights activists who have been concerned re the rearing of hens for MANY years or if you are suggesting that I might be wrong.
Which?


I'm suggesting you may very well be wrong in your assertion that there are millions of animal rights activists. People who are vaguely interested in the notion, yes; activists, no.

Why would i buy it if its free :D

I haven't seen the tv programme referred to, but last November I bought "Meat" by Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall in which he advocates buying free range chickens.

I duly bought one, cooked it and ate it. I confess it tasted delicious, and it bore no comparison with the bland-tasting 2 chickens for a fiver that I usually buy. However, it cost almost twelve quid!

I'm on a limited budget, and other posters have remarked on the necessity of feeding children on similar tight budgets. I will buy free range chickens again, but unless the cost reduces drastically, it will only be for special occasions..... unless I win the national lottery!

we buy free range poultry every time. We can't afford to buy it often but when we do have it, we appreciate it twice as much as the dull tasting/cruelly bred poultry available otherwise.

[QUOTE=dragon32;3021818]WELL TALK ABOUT THIS ITS IMPORTANT (yes I am shouting)

What every body has missed that has not been stated on tv about cheap chicken

IS

Those chickens forced to grow at super rates are bad for our HEALTH and CHILDREN
They are full of hormones and growth promoters ( how else do they make the weight so quick, its in what they eat!!!!)

THIS IS BAD FOR US...

This is why girls start periods at 8 and boys / Girls are so out of proportion ( Fat) for their set ages and cant loose weight
THINK ABOUT IT

Growth hormones in food are just bad news

Dont eat quick growth food you are consuming all those bad growth hormone chemicals into your own body

Help the chickens and help yourself its a crap way to produce food and for £5 you are just as good as buying hormone drugs to harm your body, fertility and hormone balance

is no body bothered about this aspect of cheap chickens ??????

Free range every time. No arguments.

I agree. and if I can't afford it I will just buy veg, cheaper that a cheap chicken.

They are full of hormones and growth promoters ( how else do they make the weight so quick, its in what they eat!!!!)


Do you have any proof of this? Is this fact or simply scaremongering? Are there any links you could provide. I was under the assumption that they gained weight fast because of the combination of lots of food fed (constant feeding), lack of excercise, and probably the nutritional content of the food.

But if you can provide some kind of evidence to back up these claims then i'd definately be a little concerned.

Fair enough :)

I'd certainly not argue that some meat is better than others but I feel that there is massive cynical manipulation going on here... all the in the name of TV and book deals.


For the record, I didn't see the program but I bet I've spent more time in chicken sheds than 99.9% of folk on SF... or Jamie Oliver.

Jamie Oliver made very clear distinction between egg laying birds and meat birds - they were two distinct parts of the programme. He demonstrated the difference between battery, barn and free range egg birds and standard, 'freedom food' standard and free range birds.

EDIT: Just wanted to add, for all those that think 'humane' is expensive - all M&S Oakham chicken is RSPCA Freedom Food standard. An average size whole chicken is around £2.50.

There is not that much difference in price between a standard chicken and free range.

You can, if you want pay a lot more - just like if I wanted a bottle of wine I could pay a fiver for a nice bottle, or even a tenner.

As with many things in life - you get what you pay for.

If you want dirt cheap chicken, enjoy eating your dirt cheap chicken. Just dont **** and moan that you only eat the cheap stuff because you cant afford it - when we could be talking about the price of a pint or less at most.

If people really can't afford it then buy it less, it's modern phenomenon that meat is a staple, or the best parts of a beast are staples, this was never the case, so much is wasted and it's not necessary to have meat all the time, I would rather have really good meat from time to time. When you raise an animal and deny it any free-will as limited as that might be for a chicken, you deny it the right to eat and even move as it chooses you become responsible in a moral sense for it.

A question to meat eaters then:

What part of an animal wouldn't you eat.....

and why not?

A question to meat eaters then:

What part of an animal wouldn't you eat.....

and why not?

The bones.....too crunchy and risk of choking.

Feathers....they tickle the throat and don't digest well.


Heck, I eat sausages, which pretty much covers all the bits not used for the prime cuts. I've not tried eyeballs yet, but am willing to try anything once.


EDIT: Can I just add in bile ducts! I had the misfortune of one erupting on me when gutting a chicken once - I learnt pretty darned fast never to have my mouth open when doing that again!

A question to meat eaters then:

What part of an animal wouldn't you eat.....

and why not?

I think I've eaten most parts of various animals.

I've eaten stewed chicken feet in a Chinese restaurant. You pop a whole chicken foot into your mouth, suck off the edible bits, then spit out the bones into a communal dish. You can also get these frozen in
Chinese supermarkets, as well as frozen duck feet. Fairly tasteless in my opinion - but then the Chinese try not to waste any part of an animal's carcasse.

All animal and bird bones make excellent stock - as do fish heads, tails and scales.

Pigs trotters are a lovely delicacy - very nice when gently stewed with oinions, but hard to come by. Pigs cheeks are nice too.

I also like cockles, whelks, and winkles (oft times referred to as 'old men's snot'). I adore mussels - had a huge plate of these at my favourite restaurant in Anglesey only last November.

Snails are another delicacy, especially cooked in garlic butter.

I like all kinds of offal. Devilled kidneys are particularly delicious.

I agree with Beakerzoid though - feathers are difficult to digest.

people do realize that the "free"range chickens you are all on about aren't true free range they are just farm assured,that means they have a little bit more space than normal and come farm fresh.
the person who i work for found out just yesterday that there is only 1 place in the uk where you can buy fresh true free range chicken and to be honest at the prices she would have to charge it is plain ludicrouis,a fresh chicken is going to cost just over £2 a lb,chicken fillet £3.85 per lb,where as normal birds cost far less chicken fillet about £2.50 lb,and before you all start the other thing you are failing to realise is that now every place that slaughters animals have vets on site every day that are there from D.E.F.R.A.(THE GOVERMENT)to make sure the animals are looked after and are not kept in the conditions they used to be,and they have been around slaughter houses and most catering butchers like us for over 10 years now,they are like a health inspector that comes to butchers every single week and if things aren't right they do have the power to shut you down with immediate effect.

1. starting puberty earlier is because girls are heavier than they were. The trigger for girls to start puberty is their body weight. I started puberty early before there was the cheap chicken available because I was heavy. Polution from packaging is more a problem as it alters male fertility.
2. Intensive farming and overproduction is the big problem. This is the responsibility of big supermarkets such as Sainsburys Asda etc who have imported massive amounts of cheap food and forced down the price in this country. This is bad for everybody as developing countries are also swamped with cheap food and unable to get a fair price for their produce and British farmers have to overproduce to make a living. Ban intensive farmed goods both imports and locally produced and the price will even out.
3. This is not only a problem about meat. In developing countries the pressure to make cheaper food means that rainforest is lost to soya production. Pesticides and high nitrate fertilisers used to increase production is damaging both the farmers health as well as our planet. In Italy the production of oil producing plants has taken over from Wheat growing which means after a bad harvest for wheat there is a shortage of their staple diet. Pressure for so called green options and vegetarian options cause damage too. What is needed is balance not either or.

I was under the assumption that they gained weight fast because of the combination of lots of food fed (constant feeding), lack of excercise, and probably the nutritional content of the food.
The prime reason that the birds grow quickly has little to do with food or excercise. The broiler strains have been developed to grow quickly, and the other aspects while important are secondary as I recall. The breeds don't do well outside, in the sunshine and the cold.

Slow growing breeds are used for high quality birds, some of which might go outside.

But, it's important to remember that sick, malnourished birds don't grow well so farmers make efforts to make sure the crops are performing to their optimium... which means that they have to be looked after well.

I think I've eaten most parts of various animals......



The bones.....too crunchy and risk of choking.


What I'd call 'honest' meat eaters, you two ;)

I get niggled with folk who can only eat the 'sanitised' packaged 'looks like it's never seen a slaughterhouse' meat but can't face a bit of offal.

Can't argue with you too though :D

people do realize that the "free"range chickens you are all on about aren't true free range they are just farm assured,that means they have a little bit more space than normal and come farm fresh.

Not true. To be labelled 'free range' a chicken has to have had access to the outdoors for half its life, with space of more than 1m square per chicken in the outdoor run. They must also be a slower growing type slaughtered after 56 days, as opposed to 'standard' chickens which reach slaughter weight in 38 days. They are also fed differently.

people do realize that the "free"range chickens you are all on about aren't true free range they are just farm assured,that means they have a little bit more space than normal and come farm fresh.
the person who i work for found out just yesterday that there is only 1 place in the uk where you can buy fresh true free range chicken and to be honest at the prices she would have to charge it is plain ludicrouis,a fresh chicken is going to cost just over £2 a lb,chicken fillet £3.85 per lb,where as normal birds cost far less chicken fillet about £2.50 lb,and before you all start the other thing you are failing to realise is that now every place that slaughters animals have vets on site every day that are there from D.E.F.R.A.(THE GOVERMENT)to make sure the animals are looked after and are not kept in the conditions they used to be,and they have been around slaughter houses and most catering butchers like us for over 10 years now,they are like a health inspector that comes to butchers every single week and if things aren't right they do have the power to shut you down with immediate effect.

(my bold)
I personally know of more than one place I can buy true free range chicken.
I think Hugh's programme made the point quite effectively that the cheapest standard method of production means that welfare standards for chickens are much lower than the next step up (i.e. barn-reared with access to outdoor space - Hugh's 'alternative').
Even just this small step up means a much improved life for the birds, a better quality product with only a small increase in cost.

Hugh's programme also made the point that lots of intensive chicken farms DO abide by agreed minimum welfare standards - the issue is that the minimum standard is too low and still means poor living conditions for the birds. The stocksman in the programme went to great lengths to ensure that all standards were adhered to in terms of cleanliness, light, food water and so on. DEFRA won't shut down well-run farms that adhere to the minimum agreed standard.
However there are standards that mean better welfare for the birds (RSPCA freedom Food for example) without the extra costs of complete free-range & organic at the other end of the scale.

Surely just improving our minimum welfare standards by a small amount is not too much to ask?

It's not an either/or choice, organic free-range or intensive-reared minimum welfare chemical chicken, there's a spectrum of choices...

I agree. and if I can't afford it I will just buy veg, cheaper that a cheap chicken.

Veg will be next big thing, expect horror stories about chemical laden carrots and carcinogenic cucumbers.

No doubt everyone will be totaly suprised/shocked/scared/confused and rush to buy the organic alternative.

Kerching !

What I'd call 'honest' meat eaters, you too ;)

I get niggled with folk who can only eat the 'sanitised' packaged 'looks like it's never seen a slaughterhouse' meat but can't face a bit of offal.

Can't argue with you too though :D
Yeah, I know which types you mean. So happy to eat the food but show them how it is produced and they squirm and shrink away. Or give them something to eat, watch them enjoy it, tell them it was tongue, trotters, or even testicles, and suddenly they hate it! They are the kind who pull faces whenever I mention haggis, but are more than happy to ram economy sausages into their gobs (much worse than haggis).

Having visited an abattoir, and worked in a chicken factory, I know darned well where my meat comes from - and still eat it. As stated I am always up for trying new experiences with food, and will never turn down a plate.

(my bold)
I personally know of more than one place I can buy true free range chicken.
I think Hugh's programme made the point quite effectively that the cheapest standard method of production means that welfare standards for chickens are much lower than the next step up (i.e. barn-reared with access to outdoor space - Hugh's 'alternative').
Even just this small step up means a much improved life for the birds, a better quality product with only a small increase in cost.

Hugh's programme also made the point that lots of intensive chicken farms DO abide by agreed minimum welfare standards - the issue is that the minimum standard is too low and still means poor living conditions for the birds. The stocksman in the programme went to great lengths to ensure that all standards were adhered to in terms of cleanliness, light, food water and so on. DEFRA won't shut down well-run farms that adhere to the minimum agreed standard.
However there are standards that mean better welfare for the birds (RSPCA freedom Food for example) without the extra costs of complete free-range & organic at the other end of the scale.

Surely just improving our minimum welfare standards by a small amount is not too much to ask?

It's not an either/or choice, organic free-range or intensive-reared minimum welfare chemical chicken, there's a spectrum of choices...

i work with in the meat trade and i can honestly tell you that there is only supplier of poultry THAT ARE TRULY FREE RANGE BIRDS,the ones you buy from the supermarket are farm assured meaning they are raised on the farm in a barn,farmers give them a little more space than normal that is the only diffrence, iknow this to be fact as my gaffer spent the day on monday talking to suppliers about this matter,THE ONLY BIRDS THAT ARE TRULY FREE RANGE ARE PRODUCED BY FREEMANS POULTRY!!and as for organic i wouldn't touch with a barge pole they may have been reered without anything added but they will also have all the germs that can make you very poorley.and defra and the mhs can shut down a factory if the standards aren't met,everyone has to have a hygenic and safe enviroment!!if you want to start on anyone for the way in witch they treat meat and animals then just look to the asian butchers that i see regulary without refridgerated vans that are absolutly fithly inside,have a look at those butchers and then you would have something to complain about

What a thoroughly unpleasant person you are.

your smug sense of self importance and intolerable pomposity will finish you off long before the effects of eating Asda smart price chicken do for me:wave:

Look back on your own posts if you need to see examples of 'self importance and pomposity' - and, 'unpleasant' would be tantamount to a compliment if applied to you, for you are the one who, but for a couple of quid, would condemn poultry to the miserable and cruel conditions in which it is kept.

It is you who refers to the well meaning and thoroughly decent Hugh F.W. and Jamie O. as 'middle class cooks - you are far too clever to be influenced by ANY mind but your own, regardless of moral/humane imperatives.

What a thoroughly opinionated self serving creature you are - if there is any justice you will reincarnate as an overweight lame broiler clucking its way through its p*ss soaked life in a stinking shed.

What a thoroughly opinionated self serving creature you are - if there is any justice you will reincarnate as an overweight lame broiler clucking its way through its p*ss soaked life in a stinking shed.

Best quote of the day!:)

You seem to be conferring human qualities on very very stupid chickens.

You seem to be conferring human qualities on very very stupid chickens.

yes they are tony!

i understand what hfw and jo are trying to do, apart from raise their profile and make a few quid for themselves, and it is commendable....but people should keep things in perspective.

chickens have brains the size of a pea. and though i like them as animals and wouldn't wish to harm one, the inordinate amount of emotion that is being channelled here, is a little perplexing.

the ole 'animal-loving, people-hating' british public again, i guess

:D

I don't really totally understand the 'not enough money' argument. Really, eating chicken is a privilege and not a 'right' as many appear to be suggesting. Why not eat free range chicken less often and on other nights, eat pulses and beans (for example). They are really really cheap if you buy they dry and soak them yourself, super nutritious, lots of protein. I would rather eat free-range chicken less often and know a) that the meat I am eating is good quality and tasty and b) that the chicken had a nice life. It is clear that the chickens on Hugh F-W's programme in the free-range side had a much nicer life than the 'standard' chickens but also were much more active and lively and therefore, more tasty (it ain't rocket science). Also, it was clear from the reaction to his using ALL the leftover bits of meat on the chicken plus the bones to make stock, that he uses every single bit of the chicken meat to make food. Most of the people on the show apparently did not do this at all. So they could easily buy half as much chicken (free-range at twice the price) and get just as many meals out of it.

I'm suggesting you may very well be wrong in your assertion that there are millions of animal rights activists. People who are vaguely interested in the notion, yes; activists, no.

It may be better then to be more forthright in your messages - it saves so much time.

I would say that there are MANY MILLIONS of animal rights activists - if we consider the many movements that are in place now have existed for decades.
Were we to consider world wide activity in the protection of animals then my assertion is almost certainly factual.

However I have little interest in hair splitting pettiness, perhaps you could amuse yourself by finding the exact number of 'activists' rather than 'the vaguely interested; the latter of which I've no doubt you are a member. -
Whatever - such nit picking has absolutely NO bearing on the 'MEAT' of the argument (pun intended) but if it satisfies your need for precision please feel free.

What is a "nice life" for a chicken, do they actually look happier outside, do they smile more, or are they so dim they are oblivious to where they are and what they are doing ?

Are people just trying to make themselves feel better about killing and eating them with "oh well, it had a nice life" ?

Well, they get to run around, be outside, peck at the ground - in short, do what chickens are *supposed* to do. Not just live in such crowded conditions and get so fat from constant eating that they can barely move and get burns from sitting in their own ****. I mean, it's fairly obvious which is 'nicer'.

i work with in the meat trade and i can honestly tell you that there is only supplier of poultry THAT ARE TRULY FREE RANGE BIRDS,the ones you buy from the supermarket are farm assured meaning they are raised on the farm in a barn,farmers give them a little more space than normal that is the only diffrence, iknow this to be fact as my gaffer spent the day on monday talking to suppliers about this matter,THE ONLY BIRDS THAT ARE TRULY FREE RANGE ARE PRODUCED BY FREEMANS POULTRY!!and as for organic i wouldn't touch with a barge pole they may have been reered without anything added but they will also have all the germs that can make you very poorley.and defra and the mhs can shut down a factory if the standards aren't met,everyone has to have a hygenic and safe enviroment!!if you want to start on anyone for the way in witch they treat meat and animals then just look to the asian butchers that i see regulary without refridgerated vans that are absolutly fithly inside,have a look at those butchers and then you would have something to complain about

That may be true for large suppliers and producers, but I can buy free-range organic birds from a range of different people.
Or eat the free range organic chickens my parents rear.
I agree that any producer who doesn't meet the minimum standards for cleanliness, welfare etc should be shut down, but I don't agree that organic birds contain germs that are likely to make you ill. That's more to do with the storage, prep and cooking.

Are people just trying to make themselves feel better about killing and eating them with "oh well, it had a nice life" ?

Yes....................................

I would love to keep chickens on our back garden for own use....but alas the deeds to the house won't allow it. It's about time there was all this publicity re: the truth about how meat animals are kept, maybe we should all take note and try and make things better for the poor animals. I for one will think twice the next time I buy a chicken or eggs.

I have definitely changed my view on Free Range etc. I only ever used to buy free range eggs and whole chickens, but used to just buy normal fresh breasts etc. After the HFW and Jamie Oliver programmes, I absolutely will never buy intensively farmed or battery farmed products again.

Yes there is a welfare issue for the animals, but more importantly to me, is the fact that the intensively farmed birds aren't healthy, they p*ss and sh*t on each other, they loose feather etc etc and I for one do not want to be eating products from an animal in that state.

I also will NOT be shopping in Tesco, again (I never would shop in Morrisons or Asda due to the poor food quality). I was appauled by their attitude and ignorance on the programmes and by their lack of free range products in the local stores. Its now Sainsburys all the way.

Those programmes and the educated and informed views of their presenters were excellent and welcomed.

Also, it was clear from the reaction to his using ALL the leftover bits of meat on the chicken plus the bones to make stock, that he uses every single bit of the chicken meat to make food. Most of the people on the show apparently did not do this at all. So they could easily buy half as much chicken (free-range at twice the price) and get just as many meals out of it.
We discussed this programme at work, and I was shocked to hear a colleague say that she certainly couldn't afford to buy 2 free-range chickens a week as she does with "normal" chickens to feed her family. She then went on to say the family only ate the breast meat, and the rest was all binned - no leftovers, no soup, no stock, nowt. :o She didn't think she should have to "throw her money away" by being forced to pay more for FR chicken.

feargal.... it just goes to show that some people are nearly as stupid as chickens :D


Well, they get to run around, be outside, peck at the ground - in short, do what chickens are *supposed* to do. Not just live in such crowded conditions and get so fat from constant eating that they can barely move and get burns from sitting in their own ****. I mean, it's fairly obvious which is 'nicer'.

Even if all that was true, it's still assumes that they are sentient creatures, which they are not. They are very very stupid birds who have no idea of their own consciousness, never mind whether they would prefer to be outside in the summer breeze.

Its now Sainsburys all the way.


Mission accomplished.

Best quote of the day!:)

:wow::thumbsup:

Even if all that was true, it's still assuming that they are sentient creatures, which they are not. They are very very stupid birds who have no idea of their own consciousness, never mind whether they would prefer to be outside in the summer breeze.

We know that chickens are unlikely to get many physics degrees but why this would exclude them from living an, at least partly natural and pain free life, I really don't know.

i work with in the meat trade and i can honestly tell you that there is only supplier of poultry THAT ARE TRULY FREE RANGE BIRDS,the ones you buy from the supermarket are farm assured meaning they are raised on the farm in a barn,farmers give them a little more space than normal that is the only diffrence, iknow this to be fact as my gaffer spent the day on monday talking to suppliers about this matter,THE ONLY BIRDS THAT ARE TRULY FREE RANGE ARE PRODUCED BY FREEMANS POULTRY!!

This really is complete rubbish. The birds you are referring to are RSPCA 'Freedom Food' standard birds which have slightly better conditions than standard birds and are still raised indoors.

'Free Range' is a Special Marketing Term (SMT) which means a bird CANNOT be labelled free range unless it meets a strict range of criteria (see my earlier post) set down by DEFRA, including living half its life outdoors with space of 1m squared per chicken and being a slower growing bird.

We know that chickens are unlikely to get many physics degrees but why this would exclude them from living an, at least partly natural and pain free life, I really don't know.

Because they are not human. They have no idea of their own being, of consciousness, of pain or pleasure. They are walking, clucking, eating, defecating, bone, flesh and gristle automatons, programed by nature and with no independent thought or reason.

Animal welfare is not about what you think might be cruel, it is a science best left to those who understand it, not those who wonder 'what would it be like to be a barn chicken?' over a cup of tea a remote control and a keyboard.

[QUOTE=Mopsy;3028703]
I don't really totally understand the 'not enough money'argument.QUOTE]

We four have plenty of meat from a 2 kilo bird and as you describe have a lovely meal of broth the following day from the left-overs.
About 60 pence per meal if you're paying a fiver for the chicken.
Chicken - even the more expensive ones go - CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP.

Because they are not human. They have no idea of their own being, of consciousness, of pain or pleasure. They are walking, clucking, eating, defecating, bone, flesh and gristle automatons, programed by nature and with no independent thought or reason..

Just because they may not have "independent thought or reason" does not mean they don't feel pain or discomfort.

Look back on your own posts if you need to see examples of 'self importance and pomposity' - and, 'unpleasant' would be tantamount to a compliment if applied to you, for you are the one who, but for a couple of quid, would condemn poultry to the miserable and cruel conditions in which it is kept.

It is you who refers to the well meaning and thoroughly decent Hugh F.W. and Jamie O. as 'middle class cooks - you are far too clever to be influenced by ANY mind but your own, regardless of moral/humane imperatives.

What a thoroughly opinionated self serving creature you are - if there is any justice you will reincarnate as an overweight lame broiler clucking its way through its p*ss soaked life in a stinking shed.

I see no pomposity in what I posted. I stated that I didnt care whether a chicken was free range or not. That was my opinion and its one I stand by. I even opened my first post with 'this wont be popular but'.

Now you on the other hand are so desperate to convince us of your concern for the welfare chickens(!) that you imply that my ill health would give you pleasure, simply because you disagree with my pov. Bearing in mind that I have never met you, I find that an incredible sentiment, and frankly it says shed loads about your mentality.

Lets cut to the chase here, SUPERTYKE, this little tirade in my direction has little to do with chickens now, has it? If your honest, you'll admit that it has more to do with a certain other thread in which we've clashed.

I doubt you and I will ever get on (nah, scrub that you and I WILL never get on) but I had hoped that since last we crossed paths that you may have learned how to debate as an adult, instead of relying on the tactics of a schoolyard bully, with your childish name calling and verbal threats.

Guess not. I'll repeat now what I posted then. If that all you bring to the table, toddle off and let the grown ups talk.

Because they are not human. They have no idea of their own being, of consciousness, of pain or pleasure. They are walking, clucking, eating, defecating, bone, flesh and gristle automatons, programed by nature and with no independent thought or reason.

Animal welfare is not about what you think might be cruel, it is a science best left to those who understand it, not those who wonder 'what would it be like to be a barn chicken?' over a cup of tea a remote control and a keyboard.

That all animals bar primates are unconscious of themselves is enough reason for you to commit them to this appalling treatment is it?

You say they have no sense of pleasure or pain - please do some basic biology; the reproductive process would stop fairly quickly if there were no pleasure incentive involved. And survival for even the most basic life form would prove somewhat difficult - perhaps you are joshing us in a trolling sort of way?

It's only appalling to humans. Chickens couldn't care less.

I see no pomposity in what I posted.

Lets cut to the chase here, SUPERTYKE, this little tirade in my direction has little to do with chickens now, has it? If your honest, you'll admit that it has more to do with a certain other thread in which we've clashed


I'll repeat now what I posted then. If that all you bring to the table, toddle off and let the grown ups talk.

You, pompous -- never. Goo gooo goo goo.

You don't see anything but absolute corectness and human goodness in YOUR OWN posts do you?

I do not hold ANY grudges to ANYONE on here, our 'clash' was tame compared to some of the fireworks that happen on here; and guess what, I'm not the only one who can get overheated. But so what? If you weren't such a intransigent opinionated ruffian I wouldn't mind.
But the world is full of people who are riddled with misconceptions and inner turmoil don't worry you'll get over it - maybe.
No hard feelings Annony, SLEEP WELL.

You, pompous -- never. Goo gooo goo goo.

You don't see anything but absolute corectness and human goodness in YOUR OWN posts do you?

I do not hold ANY grudges to ANYONE on here, our 'clash' was tame compared to some of the fireworks that happen on here; and guess what, I'm not the only one who can get overheated. But so what? If you weren't such a intransigent opinionated ruffian I wouldn't mind.
But the world is full of people who are riddled with misconceptions and inner turmoil don't worry you'll get over it - maybe.
No hard feelings Annony, SLEEP WELL.

This forum would be an incredibly dull place if people werent opinionated, nes pah?

Quite frankly, I dont see being opinionated as being a negative, I think the problem with you is that you cannot conceive of any reason why anyone wouldn't want to agree with you.

But OK, in the spirit of reconciliation I will gladly agree that I do fly off at the handle at times, and I think its fair to say that you and I suffer from a clash of character (I would say personality, but for that to be true, you'd first have to acquire one:D).

No hard feelings, ST.

PS I quite like being deemed a ruffian though :thumbsup:

Yes, but not if it stays at almost twice the price of 'normal' chicken!

the reproductive process would stop fairly quickly if there were no pleasure incentive involved. And survival for even the most basic life form would prove somewhat difficult

Are you suggesting that barnacles, worms, and snails (for example) enjoy sex ?

Thats going a bit too far.

It may be better then to be more forthright in your messages - it saves so much time.

I would say that there are MANY MILLIONS of animal rights activists - if we consider the many movements that are in place now have existed for decades.
Were we to consider world wide activity in the protection of animals then my assertion is almost certainly factual.

However I have little interest in hair splitting pettiness, perhaps you could amuse yourself by finding the exact number of 'activists' rather than 'the vaguely interested; the latter of which I've no doubt you are a member. -
Whatever - such nit picking has absolutely NO bearing on the 'MEAT' of the argument (pun intended) but if it satisfies your need for precision please feel free.

Thanks, your level of condesenscion brings a lot to the thread. It is nonesense to say - as you did - that there are millions of animal rights activists; got even the slightest shred of proof? Show me. Of course, you'll say you aren't bothered blah blah blah, but that's because you can't show that proof.

And when it comes to being on thread or not, you may recall that you first raised these millions of animal rights activists - and whether they exist or not, or have an opinion that agrees with the topic of the thread or not - is irrelevant to the question posed by the OP.

Ah, but I'm sure you'll have a smug, self-satisfied comeback.......

Why does something that should have been a serious debate always end up with name calling and good points on both sides disregarded?
I don't think any animal should have unnecessary suffering and that includes humans.
I could take the moral high ground on everything my children ate but I honestly can't afford it.
Why do people on low incomes have to take all the blame, just as developing countries are blamed for polution.
I'm not going to spend every shopping trip feeling guilty about doing the best I can for my children. I buy organic, free range and fair trade when I can afford it but if the money is too short that week or its not available in free range and organic I'm not going to have the family do without. I'm not going back to them like Jack and the Beanstalk with a handful of beans (there's plenty of moral dilemas there too). They are growing children and need a varied diet. They are not major meat eaters and don't like the vegetarian options for protein except dairy products and eggs (dairy products are yet another moral dilema). Eggs being free range always is the only part of their diet I'm near guilt free except they are high in cholestrol. The extra for free range may be the price of a pint, I wouldn't know I don't drink.

2 quick points and 1 question:

1. eat less, eat better: I know sometimes it's impossible due to some people living below the poverty line (as I have done in the past) but for most of us it's a question of having meat a couple of times a week instead of nearly every day and buying better stuff. Fill ourselves with other things like veg., pulses, carbs.

2. "free range" may not be the answer either. What we all want is a traditionally farm reared bird fed good stuff (not other animals' bones and crap) and allowed to exercise its muscles for lovely firm meat. So animal rights and meat lovers' desires go hand in hand (except for the killing bit, he he).

Question: where can one find such tasty birds? I've tried chicken from butchers in Hillsborough, Crookes and some farm shops... I'd quite like a good poultry specialist in the area with turkey, pheasant, chicken and eggs

I don't really totally understand the 'not enough money' argument. Really, eating chicken is a privilege and not a 'right' as many appear to be suggesting. Why not eat free range chicken less often and on other nights, eat pulses and beans (for example). They are really really cheap if you buy they dry and soak them yourself, super nutritious, lots of protein. I would rather eat free-range chicken less often and know a) that the meat I am eating is good quality and tasty and b) that the chicken had a nice life. It is clear that the chickens on Hugh F-W's programme in the free-range side had a much nicer life than the 'standard' chickens but also were much more active and lively and therefore, more tasty (it ain't rocket science). Also, it was clear from the reaction to his using ALL the leftover bits of meat on the chicken plus the bones to make stock, that he uses every single bit of the chicken meat to make food. Most of the people on the show apparently did not do this at all. So they could easily buy half as much chicken (free-range at twice the price) and get just as many meals out of it.

What a thought provoking post Mopsy.

I've decided to take up your challenge next week (nb I've already purchased my food supplies for this week). I intend to buy a free-range chicken at twice the price, and see how many meals I can get out of it. On other nights, I shall eat pulses and beans (I already have a stock in the kitchen cupboard) - and see how I fare.

What a thought provoking post Mopsy.

I've decided to take up your challenge next week (nb I've already purchased my food supplies for this week). I intend to buy a free-range chicken at twice the price, and see how many meals I can get out of it. On other nights, I shall eat pulses and beans (I already have a stock in the kitchen cupboard) - and see how I fare.

You'll fare very well, I imagine! Free-range chickens are much better both in taste and value :)
It was a thought provoking post. Also, I haven't seen the programme but I can well imagine the waste of chicken that occurs...

It's got nothing to do with living outside... the chicken doesn't care, the chicken doesn't know, the chicken isn't aware that life can different. The fact that it's a completely different breed might have something to do with why it tastes different. ;)

By all means buy better quality food and make best use of it. Nobody can be knocked for doing that!


But rather than bend over and accept the 'free range' scam I'd rather people put their efforts into getting the supermarkets to pay the farmers what the birds are worth so farmers can grow better quality birds for everyone.

Animal welfare is not about what you think might be cruel, it is a science best left to those who understand it, not those who wonder 'what would it be like to be a barn chicken?'

In what way, and why should it be only of interest to those who understand science?

The broiler strains have been developed to grow quickly, and the other aspects while important are secondary as I recall.

How have they been developed to grow quickly? By what scientific method?

But rather than bend over and accept the 'free range' scam I'd rather people put their efforts into getting the supermarkets to pay the farmers what the birds are worth so farmers can grow better quality birds for everyone.

What 'free range' scam? I thought price was determined by production costs and profit margin, so the best way to get the supermarkets to pay the farmers for quality birds would be to demand the supply of better quality birds-by buying them.

Because they are not human. They have no idea of their own being, of consciousness, of pain or pleasure. They are walking, clucking, eating, defecating, bone, flesh and gristle automatons, programed by nature and with no independent thought or reason.

Animal welfare is not about what you think might be cruel, it is a science best left to those who understand it, not those who wonder 'what would it be like to be a barn chicken?' over a cup of tea a remote control and a keyboard.

i disagree, on the grounds that your assumptions are unfounded.

Indeed, there might be very little that the chicken brain shares with the human one...but, as rational, empathic creatures, we should understand that the potential of such justifies the benefit of the doubt.

In other words, we have the choice and fortune to act ethically...any behaviour contrary to this is simply ignorant.

If there isn't a scam being operated by some suppliers of organic and free range products how come the price is so variable? If it was just a reflection of cost of rearing a free range product why can prices vary by several pounds. Plus there are the battery eggs that are relabled free range. The local produce which is actually shipped in and then unpacked and sold in farm shops. I'm not saying all retailers do this or even most but it does happen. It's like designer lables. Put the right lable on it and you can bet there will be plenty of mugs that'll pay over the odds for it, without checking the source.

Do you have any proof of this? Is this fact or simply scaremongering? Are there any links you could provide. I was under the assumption that they gained weight fast because of the combination of lots of food fed (constant feeding), lack of excercise, and probably the nutritional content of the food.

But if you can provide some kind of evidence to back up these claims then i'd definately be a little concerned.

glad you have taken this on board. you would have to contact the chicken feed supplier and they would say whats in the food OR NOT
but its funny they never said one way or another what it was the food the fast growers ( chicken) were eating
organic simple grain is best, but no good for quick growth

See the web links about capon chickens which are now banned in human food production.

I believe most live stock is full of hormones from the food they eat to gain quick weight.
Its common knowledge at cattle markets.

metaphoria: Different breeds and strains grow at different rates regardless of food or surroundings. It's a genetic certainty exploited and refined by breeders.

johnbradley: there is no 'benefit of the doubt' about whether chickens are intelligent or sentient. I've explained why. If you want to know more it's up to you to learn. I'm not spending hours explaining it if you can't seperate human and chicken 'intelligence'.

Anthromorphisation isn't for me.

metaphoria: Different breeds and strains grow at different rates regardless of food or surroundings. It's a genetic certainty exploited and refined by breeders.

johnbradley: there is no 'benefit of the doubt' about whether chickens are intelligent or sentient. I've explained why. If you want to know more it's up to you to learn. I'm not spending hours explaining it if you can't seperate human and chicken 'intelligence'.

Anthromorphisation isn't for me.

your Cartesian approach to the make-up of animals is, like the great man's other ideas, hopelessly outdated.

I'm not going to trawl the net this morning looking for studies which support my view, but here's a news repor (http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/sciences/story/0,12243,1432159,00.html)t that took me about three seconds to find:

Pain and discomfort are not uniquely human, and it is quite possible that chickens and other farmyard creatures suffer from them, when there is little need. This isn't anthropomorphism, this is empathy. Perhaps you need more time to understand the difference.

It is only the ignorant, or the naive, who wouldn't want this situation changed. The former through willful denial, the latter through a lack of education.

Which one are you, Tony?

It's got nothing to do with living outside... the chicken doesn't care, the chicken doesn't know, the chicken isn't aware that life can different. The fact that it's a completely different breed might have something to do with why it tastes different. ;)

.

The difference between birds reared exclusively indoors and those reared with access to outdoor spaces comes down to three factors
: length of time taken to reach maturity, diet and exercise. All three of these factors affect the taste and texture of the meat of the finished product.
Outdoor birds take longer to grow to weight as they don't put on fat as quickly so the flesh is denser. The greater exercise develops firmer flesh, particularly the red meat of the thighs and legs (and also the breast meat is firmer due to being able to flap their wings). They also have access to a more varied diet than the exclusively barn-reared bird and this has an impact on the taste of their meat.

Chickens may not be able to tell any different if they haven't been outside their whole lives, not many animals would, but they still exhibit stress symptoms and develop painful physical conditions as a result of their confinement.
Outdoor birds are not automatically a different breed from indoor birds either.

metaphoria: Different breeds and strains grow at different rates regardless of food or surroundings. It's a genetic certainty exploited and refined by breeders.


If it is just about exploitation, and refinement of breeders, then I'd prefer to pay more for ones that aren't, as at least there's comfort of knowing what you are paying for.

Forgot to 'quote' you Annonimous. But I'm sure you know it's you who the post is ascribed to. - Anyway, - It's you who said that we britsh have "fanciful notions of animal welfare"..

It's you who steamed in with the spiteful suggestion that Hugh F.W. and Jamie O. are "a pair of middle class cooks", in it for their own gain. It was you who was so quick to suggest that my arguments against yours were based on past greivances that I had with you.

Of course I wouldn't expect you to agree with anything that I say - and couldn't care less.
But don't imply that I am a lone railing voice, as clearly, many people and I, do agree.

As I said before, I have no 'ignore list' and of the many heated arguments I've had on this and other sites, I bear no resentments or ill will to ANYONE - not even to you.
I would never take an opposing stance to an argument merely because I have previously disagreed with a person. My arguments are based on the point(s) being argued and no more.

I have no wish to see you die of food poisoning due to your peculiar taste for cheap meats - but making out that my dark humour is meant literally, and that I am therefore some kind of fiend, is lost on most forummers who are way ahead of you.


Anyway, enough time spent on you - back to chickens.

I still want to know more about barnicles enjoying sex.

Are you suggesting that barnacles, worms, and snails (for example) enjoy sex ?

Thats going a bit too far.

I'm saying that barnacles and snails 'respond to stimuli' (as do goats as you should know)
Lower organisms are averse to being killed you see - they don't like it at all, anymore than you or I do.
Whether it be a pheromone slime trail, or an earfull of Channel number five, it serves the same end. (Pun intended)!

i always buy chickens in asda (their own lable) ... its got a picture of a jolly looking farmer bloke on and says something about 'asda and farmer .... whatever ... are working in partnership to bring succulent chickens blah blah blah' ... and with the picture of the farmer on it, at 1st glance i would have presumed they were free range, however after that tv programme and this discussion i decided to ask a staff member ... who looked at me as if I'd got 2 heads? ... said 'wait here a min' and disappeared. He came back shortly with a tray of 6 'asda extra special free range chickens' ... £5.96 (asdas own were only 2 for £6) .. the 6 he brought to put in the fridge didnt last long, everyone seemed to be reading the lables (bet they watched the programme too) ... but i must say, it tasted LOVELY

I'm saying that barnacles and snails 'respond to stimuli' (as do goats as you should know)


you said they get "pleasure", how can anyone know that, it's not like barnicles are very expressive.

Responding to stimuli is not the same thing as being concious, plants respond to stimuli but they are not concious (unless they are triffids)

whos trying to seduce a barnicle?

Thanks, your level of condesenscion brings a lot to the thread. It is nonesense to say - as you did - that there are millions of animal rights activists; got even the slightest shred of proof? Show me. Of course, you'll say you aren't bothered blah blah blah, but that's because you can't show that proof.

And when it comes to being on thread or not, you may recall that you first raised these millions of animal rights activists - and whether they exist or not, or have an opinion that agrees with the topic of the thread or not - is irrelevant to the question posed by the OP.

Ah, but I'm sure you'll have a smug, self-satisfied comeback.......

How quickly you 'up your game' when you sense a 'pile on', Bit animalistic that Ade.
And if you were not so far down, in terms of meaningful replies to serious issues, maybe I wouldn't have to trouble myself in lowering myself to your level.

Your middle paragraph gets a wee bit confused - is it Horlicks time already?
You see, when I referred to 'amimal rights activists', it was justified in the context of the posts at that time. So now you can go and find some other barely revelvent minutia to argue about,
Is that smug and self satisfied enough for you?

Hi

I have been to Sainsburys on Archer Road tonight and the shelf for organic chickens is totally empty, however the shelf below was full of "regular" chickens at a reduced price, I asked the assistant who told me since the programmes last week they cannot meet demand and are having to source new suppliers.

Basically, there are sickos, prickos and thickos. And then nice folk. End of.