Do you think there should be some sort of compulsary test, like the driving test :-), or atleast training that has to be undertaken before been let loose with a computer and the internet? It seems there are loads of people out there who really haven't got a clue about PCs and leave them selves open to all sorts of problems, particularly on the net. If you dont get yourself setup with Anti Virus and Firewall software you could not only end up with a PC that doesnt work, but various other problems such as having your credit card details stolen. It's not the fault of the individuals as if nobody has ever told you how are you supposed to know.

The problem seems to stem from places like PC world who sell people computers without really telling them anything about what they are buying. People don't really understand how complex they are and expect them to be no more complicated than a VCR.

Hey, don't knock it march.

I'm pretty comp literate, but haven't got a clue where the VCR is concerned. I've only just mastered how to set 'record':help:

That was a bad example wasn't it! They tend to be the least "user friendly" things on the planet, VCRs. Swap VCR for toaster, that sounds better!!

Another bad example march. Last time I used the toaster to make beans on toast it took the wife two hours to clean the beans out of it...bless her.:thumbsup:

Know what you mean though, but I can't imagine PC World (or whoever) warning about the drawbacks, as they probably make a fortune putting these problems right.:suspect:

Anybody can own a gas fire. It's up to them if they choose to stick their hand in it :hihi:

I know what you mean, but there are millions of jobs created by the necessary helplines created by the demand for hand-holding on the journey through tinternet surfing

Yes, there should be. Then Id get a lot less stupid questions at work from people whove just bought them without a clue what theyre doing. Example:

Me: What web browser are you using? Internet Explorer or Firefox?

Idiot: Google. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by slh73
Yes, there should be. Then Id get a lot less stupid questions at work from people whove just bought them without a clue what theyre doing. Example:

Me: What web browser are you using? Internet Explorer or Firefox?

Idiot: Google. :rolleyes:

So it's not just me this happens to then! I dont think I go through a day without someone amazing me with the lack of knowledge when it comes to PCs. People should be taught the basics so they can atleast ask for the right help!! Have you noticed on here how most computer questions take atleast 2 pages to answers as it takes about 6 replies to get the proper information from people. I aren't trying to have a go at people, as how are you supposed to know if you are never shown.

Transcript from tech support call -

Tech Support - OK if you can double click on "My Computer" and tell me what comes up
User - Erm... Erm... Erm... but... erm... how can I click on your computer?

I don't think it would be possible to have a basic computer test. There are just too many areas to be covered by one test alone.

Example:

My older brother is an IT Tutor earning 3 times more than me. He can make certain programs 'dance' if he wants to but as soon as something goes wrong that is out of his field of speciality, he is dropped straight back down to a novices level and has to seek advice from someone like me.
On the other hand.
If i were to take part in a test that involved Word or Outlook Express, i would be lost!. I have NEVER used them and wouldn't know the first thing about even setting a page up.

Does that mean i can't have a computer? :suspect:

There should be some sort of test about security because why should I put up with constant probes of my routers security from some numbnuts who hasnt patched his computer to stop all the trojans etc taking it over?

When I lived in america my broadband provider solved this quite nicely- they checked if peoples computers were running trojans (I forget how they did this) and if it was they simply blocked your computer until you could prove the problem was fixed. Then you got your connection back.

Originally posted by nightrider


When I lived in america my broadband provider solved this quite nicely- they checked if peoples computers were running trojans (I forget how they did this) and if it was they simply blocked your computer until you could prove the problem was fixed. Then you got your connection back.

That sounds similar to what Microsoft are going to start doing. Although Microsoft are going to ask if you want them to do the removing for you :D .

Check out the story.....

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-5577202.html?tag=zdfd.newsfeed

A couple of years ago I was a complete and utter non starter when it came to computers and I was beginning to feel left behind. I found a nice centre that taught Learndirect courses which started with the basics and gradually progressed to actually doing things. Obviously nowadays i can use words like 'desktop' or 'search engine' , in fact one friend now asks me for help and advice.
Luckily I've also got friends who spent time explaining the importance of anti virus and don't touch the key registry, [Oooops] I also now use the computer for lots of things other than playing games which I think is one of the most pointless endevours ever. I've also discovered with a bit of work on my part I can usually find answers to problems or queries on the net or another really good source of info is the 'ask an expert' section on this forum.
I'd advise everyone to do a course though if you're just starting out.

I know at our school we were all made to do a compulsary computing qualification which tested word processing, spreadsheet and paint (god knows why paint but it was actually harder than it sounded!) so i think it is slowly being phased in in a fashion.

no there should not.
the driving test is not to protect the driver, but to protect everyone else.

Government intrusion into peoples lives should be minimised, which means no tests for riding a bike, swinging on a swing, owning a pc, owning a toaster or owning an tunnelling electron microscope.

It's up to the person buying the device to learn how to use it. As long as they aren't going to kill people by not understanding how to use it there's no rational for enforcing basic learning.

Originally posted by march
Do you think there should be some sort of compulsary test, like the driving test :-), or atleast training that has to be undertaken before been let loose with a computer and the internet? It seems there are loads of people out there who really haven't got a clue about PCs and leave them selves open to all sorts of problems, particularly on the net. If you dont get yourself setup with Anti Virus and Firewall software you could not only end up with a PC that doesnt work, but various other problems such as having your credit card details stolen. It's not the fault of the individuals as if nobody has ever told you how are you supposed to know.

The problem seems to stem from places like PC world who sell people computers without really telling them anything about what they are buying. People don't really understand how complex they are and expect them to be no more complicated than a VCR.

Originally posted by Cyclone
no there should not.
the driving test is not to protect the driver, but to protect everyone else.

Government intrusion into peoples lives should be minimised, which means no tests for riding a bike, swinging on a swing, owning a pc, owning a toaster or owning an tunnelling electron microscope.

It's up to the person buying the device to learn how to use it. As long as they aren't going to kill people by not understanding how to use it there's no rational for enforcing basic learning.

I agree mostly with what you are saying but is it really fair to let some one loose with a computer when they really have no idea about them? They could easily end up losing all their money, having their identity stolen and loads more not particularly nice things. This really isn't going to happen when you buy a toaster. The other areas are obviously not too important, such as knowing what things are called or how to use a particular piece of software. However if you are already doing a test simple instuctions for the basics would save a lot of time down the line when you need help. If only so people can actually learn that the big bit next to the screen is actually the computer, not the modem, hard drive, monitor, box, grey thing etc that I have heard it be called. Plus it would stop people going it to dummy mode when getting computer related help, people who are usually sensible come out with the most rediculous things when some one is trying to help them with a computer problem.

I think we should go back to the days when compters were realy difficult to use and only people who went to university and had a beard were allowed near them, these days every tom, dick and harry is using one (even children and old people !).

We in the IT industry who "know about computers" have worked hard to get to the possition where were we can snigger at anyone who doesn't know the difference between XML, HTML, SQL and TCP/IP, we even make-up these abreviations to confuse the less mentally gifted and make us look clever.

All these thick people just buying a computer, turning it on and learning how to use it through trial and error are erroding our control, soon we will be just like ordinary mortals.

It is our duty to supervise these people and keep them from harm.

I understand where you're coming from, March... My boyfriend's parents did not have a clue about internet security, and had been happily surfing the world wide web. When I went over to see them, I downloaded spybot and ad-aware and unearthed alot of frightening stuff. And then, talked them into getting anti virus software and a firewall.

Now these are intelligent people, but they had no clue about the potential pitfalls and dangers of the net.

I agree to some extent with Cyclone also... It is up to the users of said computer to protect themselves. However, if places like PC World, and other computer stores, were to perhaps hand out a small leaflet explaining why they might need the basics of a firewall and anti virus software, it makes a lot of sense, both for the user and the store. This way the user gets some basic information which they could do with as they please, and the computer store would get an add on sale should they decide to buy said protection...

Whether the user buys or not, they've been offered the choice, thus getting a better customer service experience. And, lets face it, in this day and age it's a bonus.

Originally posted by nick2
I think we should go back to the days when compters were realy difficult to use and only people who went to university and had a beard were allowed near them, these days every tom, dick and harry is using one (even children and old people !).

We in the IT industry who "know about computers" have worked hard to get to the possition where were we can snigger at anyone who doesn't know the difference between XML, HTML, SQL and TCP/IP, we even make-up these abreviations to confuse the less mentally gifted and make us look clever.

All these thick people just buying a computer, turning it on and learning how to use it through trial and error are erroding our control, soon we will be just like ordinary mortals.

It is our duty to supervise these people and keep them from harm.

That is exactly what I was trying to avoid sounding like I was implying I assume what you say is tongue in cheek. I aren't saying people shouldn't be allowed computers just warned or taught of the dangers to avoid bad stuff happening.

We are given a driving test mainly to make sure we aren't likely to go out and kill ourselves and more importantly others. Yet with a computer you can easily be tricked in to indirectly giving money to people who wont be doing good things with it. The reason for this is a lot of people think of the internet as a safe place as you access if from your own home. You wouldn't walk down the street with a see through bag full of money yet you happily use Internet banking with all sorts of trojans and malicous code running on your PC which is far more dangerous. People seem to not have "common sense" when they are using computers as they just assume everything is safe.

I realise more and more people are aware of these sort of risks now but I would imagine there are still more that aren't than are.

I do think the danger from viruses/trojans/spyware etc is exagerated, mainly by the people who sell software to remove the "threats". My dad bought a computer and went for a year with no firewall, no anti-virus or spy-ware software, no nothing, buying stuff with his credit card and selling things on E-bay, nothing bad happened.

Yes there are viruses that can destroy your PC, but the chances of catching some of these viruses is very small when you consider how many PC's are actually connected to the internet.

Install a basic firewall, pop-up blocker and inti-virus, but beyond that there is no need to panic about it, you are more likely to get robbed by something built into the cash dispenser at your local bank, someone going through your rubbish and finding your credit card bill or a waiter swiping your card twice than via the internet.

maybe people shouldn't be allowed credit cards either, or postal mail with their address and name on it.

Not without a license anyway, as if they aren't careful someone can steal their identity and take all their money.

Hmmm, cash, actually that's risky, lets license people to carry cash, otherwise how can we know that they won't fall for some sort of scam, or even more stupidly just loose it.

You cannot and should not legislate for problems like this, offer computer courses for sure, but licensing makes it compulsory and that is unneccesary government interference in the everyday lives of people. Government should be as unobtrusive as possible.

Many things in life carry risk, unless that risk is to someone else we let people get on with it and assess the risk for themselves. All we should offer is advice and help where it's wanted.

Originally posted by march
[B]So it's not just me this happens to then! I dont think I go through a day without someone amazing me with the lack of knowledge when it comes to PCs. People should be taught the basics so they can atleast ask for the right help!!

Given that there aren't any compulsory tests, it begs the question 'how did you learn your computer skills, march?'
Surely you must have made the same idiot mistakes that we all do on this techie journey? :)

the danger is exaggerated to some extent.

But independant tests have shown that within 30s an unprotected pc connected to the internet is generally infected with at least 1 virus.

Within a few days it generally has some sort of trojan or root kit installed that allows complete remote access by an unauthorised user.

The onus should be on software companies to produce software that is secure by default rather than the opposite.

Originally posted by nick2
I do think the danger from viruses/trojans/spyware etc is exagerated, mainly by the people who sell software to remove the "threats". My dad bought a computer and went for a year with no firewall, no anti-virus or spy-ware software, no nothing, buying stuff with his credit card and selling things on E-bay, nothing bad happened.

Yes there are viruses that can destroy your PC, but the chances of catching some of these viruses is very small when you consider how many PC's are actually connected to the internet.

Install a basic firewall, pop-up blocker and inti-virus, but beyond that there is no need to panic about it, you are more likely to get robbed by something built into the cash dispenser at your local bank, someone going through your rubbish and finding your credit card bill or a waiter swiping your card twice than via the internet.

Originally posted by nick2
I do think the danger from viruses/trojans/spyware etc is exagerated, mainly by the people who sell software to remove the "threats". My dad bought a computer and went for a year with no firewall, no anti-virus or spy-ware software, no nothing, buying stuff with his credit card and selling things on E-bay, nothing bad happened.

Yes there are viruses that can destroy your PC, but the chances of catching some of these viruses is very small when you consider how many PC's are actually connected to the internet.

Install a basic firewall, pop-up blocker and inti-virus, but beyond that there is no need to panic about it, you are more likely to get robbed by something built into the cash dispenser at your local bank, someone going through your rubbish and finding your credit card bill or a waiter swiping your card twice than via the internet.

nothing bad happened to him maybe. But there is a good chance hte pc was infected with a trojan and was helping to wreak havoc on other peoples systems...you would never know unless you actually checked. Thats the whole point of a trojan - you dont know you have it!

Originally posted by Cyclone
the danger is exaggerated to some extent.

But independant tests have shown that within 30s an unprotected pc connected to the internet is generally infected with at least 1 virus.

Within a few days it generally has some sort of trojan or root kit installed that allows complete remote access by an unauthorised user.

The onus should be on software companies to produce software that is secure by default rather than the opposite.

The problem is windows was never designed to be connected to the internet. Thats why IE can call code in the main part of the os (this doesnt matter if you arenot on the internet) and thats why you can get hacked into just by running IE. Until they make a completely new os (isnt that what longhorn is for?) the problem wont go away.

Originally posted by nightrider
The problem is windows was never designed to be connected to the internet. Thats why IE can call code in the main part of the os (this doesnt matter if you arenot on the internet) and thats why you can get hacked into just by running IE. Until they make a completely new os (isnt that what longhorn is for?) the problem wont go away.

xp is based on the nt core, which was designed to be connected to a network from scratch.

Most of the security holes in xp come from bad coding, buffer overruns and the like.

Originally posted by nightrider
The problem is windows was never designed to be connected to the internet. Thats why IE can call code in the main part of the os (this doesnt matter if you arenot on the internet) and thats why you can get hacked into just by running IE. Until they make a completely new os (isnt that what longhorn is for?) the problem wont go away.

That is why Firefox is better, it is not as tied into Windows.

Originally posted by Cyclone
xp is based on the nt core, which was designed to be connected to a network from scratch.

Most of the security holes in xp come from bad coding, buffer overruns and the like.

But nt must be based on older windows to some extent? If it was from scratch why on earth did MS allow IE access to functions in the core os? Surely it was known by the time nt was released this is not a sensible idea from a security perspective?

Originally posted by nightrider
But nt must be based on older windows to some extent? If it was from scratch why on earth did MS allow IE access to functions in the core os? Surely it was known by the time nt was released this is not a sensible idea from a security perspective?

NT 3.5 was released in something like 86, it wasn't based on 3.1 in any way as far as i'm aware. It has had a seperate codebase from 9x all along (which was as we know based on DOS and 3.1).

The reason for the mistakes are that security was not a priority, in fact it barely made it onto the list of objectives at all.

Originally posted by Cyclone
NT 3.5 was released in something like 86, it wasn't based on 3.1 in any way as far as i'm aware. It has had a seperate codebase from 9x all along (which was as we know based on DOS and 3.1).

The reason for the mistakes are that security was not a priority, in fact it barely made it onto the list of objectives at all.

oh, I see. So the code was new, but the philosophy with respect to security was not .

Originally posted by Draggletail
Given that there aren't any compulsory tests, it begs the question 'how did you learn your computer skills, march?'
Surely you must have made the same idiot mistakes that we all do on this techie journey? :)

Yes I did, and I remember people getting annoyed with me. I aren't "picking" on people for lack of knowledge as so many people do who consider them self knowledgable, which I dont as I cant even spell it! Just pointing out that there are a lot of dangers related to computers that people aren't made aware of. Like I said in the rest of life most people use common sense but stick them in front of a computer and they revert to dummy mode.

Something like 1 in 10,000 of those phising emails pretending to be from banks are succesful. When you consider you can send millions a day that is a lot!

Originally posted by Cyclone
maybe people shouldn't be allowed credit cards either, or postal mail with their address and name on it.

Not without a license anyway, as if they aren't careful someone can steal their identity and take all their money.

Hmmm, cash, actually that's risky, lets license people to carry cash, otherwise how can we know that they won't fall for some sort of scam, or even more stupidly just loose it.

You cannot and should not legislate for problems like this, offer computer courses for sure, but licensing makes it compulsory and that is unneccesary government interference in the everyday lives of people. Government should be as unobtrusive as possible.

Many things in life carry risk, unless that risk is to someone else we let people get on with it and assess the risk for themselves. All we should offer is advice and help where it's wanted.

My original point was not really saying there should be a computer license, notice the smilley, but just some sort of basic training. Even if it was just a leaflet or some questions that had to be answered when the PC was first put on, to draw your attention to the dangers.

I was prompted to start this thread by a number of question I have seen about setting up wireless networks. All asked by people who clearly considered themselves newbies to computers. There is an expectance that you can just buy a box plug it in and it will work. This really isn't the case and highlights why there should be some basic training to atleast make sure people know when to ask for help.

I can further prove my point by taking my laptop walking down a steet and happily start downloading illegal music on someones wireless internet connection as they have set it up without knowing anything about security. Next thing they know they have the police knocking on their door. I'm sure the police will love the excuse "I dont know anything about security, so it isnt my fault.

If you dont believe me try this yourself if you have a laptop, I guarante within ten mins of walking you will have picked up atleast 10 networks. From inside my house I can get 3.

I'm lucky if I can detect my own wireless network from inside my house.

Originally posted by march
I was prompted to start this thread by a number of question I have seen about setting up wireless networks. All asked by people who clearly considered themselves newbies to computers. There is an expectance that you can just buy a box plug it in and it will work. This really isn't the case and highlights why there should be some basic training to atleast make sure people know when to ask for help.

I can further prove my point by taking my laptop walking down a steet and happily start downloading illegal music on someones wireless internet connection as they have set it up without knowing anything about security. Next thing they know they have the police knocking on their door. I'm sure the police will love the excuse "I dont know anything about security, so it isnt my fault.

If you dont believe me try this yourself if you have a laptop, I guarante within ten mins of walking you will have picked up atleast 10 networks. From inside my house I can get 3.

in an apartment block I used to live in people always went round to this one persons flat because you get someone elses wireless there. That guy must have had no bandwidth. I will never understand how he didnt find these people out.

i'd be pretty surprised if the police turned up, given that it's a civil matter, not a criminal one.
And if (no one has been yet) you were taken to court in this country, not having the music on your pc would be an adequate defence.

You can't force people to have basic lessons, not without effectively licensing the owning of a pc. Afterall, what are you going to do if they buy the pc and decline the lessons? How does someone at the shop know for sure that i'm telling the truth when I say i've been using a pc for longer than they've been alive?

So smiley or otherwise, you are talking about licensing it.

Originally posted by march
I was prompted to start this thread by a number of question I have seen about setting up wireless networks. All asked by people who clearly considered themselves newbies to computers. There is an expectance that you can just buy a box plug it in and it will work. This really isn't the case and highlights why there should be some basic training to atleast make sure people know when to ask for help.

I can further prove my point by taking my laptop walking down a steet and happily start downloading illegal music on someones wireless internet connection as they have set it up without knowing anything about security. Next thing they know they have the police knocking on their door. I'm sure the police will love the excuse "I dont know anything about security, so it isnt my fault.

If you dont believe me try this yourself if you have a laptop, I guarante within ten mins of walking you will have picked up atleast 10 networks. From inside my house I can get 3.

Originally posted by Cyclone
i'd be pretty surprised if the police turned up, given that it's a civil matter, not a criminal one.
And if (no one has been yet) you were taken to court in this country, not having the music on your pc would be an adequate defence.

To be honest that was just an example do you really think there is no way you can get in to trouble by letting ANYONE use your Internet connection. If someone was doing some serious hacking or distributing illegal pornographic material the police computer crime dept. would be very interested. Not having the material on the hard drive may not be a valid excuse as it is possible to do low level formats that really do wipe everything.

Originally posted by Cyclone
You can't force people to have basic lessons, not without effectively licensing the owning of a pc. Afterall, what are you going to do if they buy the pc and decline the lessons? How does someone at the shop know for sure that i'm telling the truth when I say i've been using a pc for longer than they've been alive?

How about a brief leaflet/contract you agree to at the time of purchase. Yes I know people could just sign it anyway, but it would atleast draw the attention to the security and other risks of owning a PC. Even some widescale advertising may be adequate, governement or computer manufacturer sponsored. At the minute many people have the attitued of it wont happen to them.

I cant seriously believe from what I have said you think I want people to have to carry a license to use a PC. Meaning if you were caught using one without it you could end up in jail?? Just think some sort of basic computer education should be given, in whatever way, to people who are going to use a PC at home. Assuming if using one at work you are already protected by the companies policies and software.

Thought this might be of interest -


Taken from http://www.ebcvg.com/articles.php?id=259
And very worryingly, if your connection is used for illegal activity such as accessing illegal images on the Internet, you or your business could be held responsible, even if you have no idea who actually did it. This is because the activity will have been carried out from your address, using your connection.

O.K if we all helped each other and schools helped by adult training at night. Then we would be much more P.C. Literate. Other countries have managed to learn more than we have. Maybe it is because we are an idle society. I help an 86 year old to use a P.C. Also a kiddie as young as 4. What makes me scared are the young people in Africa and other places, They use P.C's donated by ourselves to defraud on a large scale. One recent arrest under the Nigerian 419 scams was a ten year old African. He has netted close to 3 milion pounds before being caught. No not a test, But more help to stop internet fraud , Sex Sites, and importantly the access by kids to gambling sites. Many of these are also fraud sites. The servers could assist in this if they all got together. Yahoo is responsible for many e-mail that we get that are fraudulent. But remember we are , Or we were at one time a free country. Not so much now. But we have restrictions placed upon us every day by this Government and Councils. We have Fraud and corruption on a massive scale. Yet there are those that would restrict P.C users , Make them take a test, Many of us that are adept at using a P.C. would fail. Britain has more restrictions than Soviet Russia. I am not joking. Just Count the things we could be fined for, The restrictions on what we can do with our own homes and land, The Political Correctness that plagues us. We do not need all these laws and regulations. All we need is common sense. and a respect for others.

That is why Firefox is better, it is not as tied into Windows.

IE doesn't suffer from quite the same memory probs as Firefox though.

My original point was not really saying there should be a computer license, notice the smilley, but just some sort of basic training. Even if it was just a leaflet or some questions that had to be answered when the PC was first put on, to draw your attention to the dangers.

What about the booklet that comes with most new PCs? Y'know the one that says "Getting Started with Microsoft Windows"?

IE can call code in the main part of the os"main part of the os"? You mean the kernel, right? Every program written since roughly 1968 gets the kernel to do things when it runs. Why does IE calling kernel code bother you? thats why you can get hacked into just by running IEYou can get hacked by running IE as its an awfully designed program whose bugs are not patched for a long long time. Firefox has had remote exploit holes too, you know, but they tend to be plugged within hours.

Yes, there should be. Then Id get a lot less stupid questions at work from people whove just bought them without a clue what theyre doing. Example:

Me: What web browser are you using? Internet Explorer or Firefox?

Idiot: Google. :rolleyes:


so firefox then :D

Computer Driving License...

http://www.bcs.org/server.php?show=nav.5829

Not comprehensive by any means but if studied properly it would give most new PC users a reasonable grasp of the basics.

Meh, I still reckon FF is overrated.

And no, I am not trolling. I just prefer IE over Firefox.

The problem is windows was never designed to be connected to the internet. Thats why IE can call code in the main part of the os (this doesnt matter if you arenot on the internet) and thats why you can get hacked into just by running IE.

UNIX wasn't designed with The Internet in mind either, although it /was/ designed with being a primarily multi-user OS (rather than MSDOS and its derivatives which were modelled on single-user CP/M). TCP/IP was being developed at more-or-less the same time as UNIX, but the TCP/IP protocol stack (and the Berkeley sockets API it relies on) wasn't commercially available until the 1980's.

Until they make a completely new os (isnt that what longhorn is for?) the problem wont go away.

Problems with hacking and exploits to do with poor coding are unlikely to disappear with the introduction of Longhorn. If anything more secure OSs are more likely to make dedicated hackers more creative (especially against MS who suffer in this respect from being the big fish in the world's pond), and if poor coding is created by Microsoft's business model (which would seem to be "Ship product, then test it") then that's unlikely to disappear overnight either.

I don't think that there should be a computer test as such. Though, I do know that many people who works in the local government or NHS are encouraged to take the EDCL.

I think for many people, they fear the PC too much even before using it. Basically, you cannot be cheated or you cannot be tricked if you don't let others do so. The so called scams that exists are by email circulations. If you don't know a person and have not met them, and never given them your details, then how can they be "real" or "true"? They're fake! A lot of social engineering scams work online, and I don't know how it can... :huh:

As to credit card frauds and debit card frauds.. if you don't use your credit cards online to buy anything, then you're pretty much safe.

The problem seems to stem from places like PC world who sell people computers without really telling them anything about what they are buying.

It's hardly fair to expect them to tell customers what they are buying when they don't even know what they are selling :suspect:

It's hardly fair to expect them to tell customers what they are buying when they don't even know what they are selling :suspect:

so true its unfunny... i remember one guy trying to tell me that ddr 2700 was a lot faster than ddr400?? i tried explaining but he wouldnt have it :rolleyes:

Do you think there should be some sort of compulsary test, like the driving test :-), or atleast training that has to be undertaken before been let loose with a computer and the internet? It seems there are loads of people out there who really haven't got a clue about PCs and leave them selves open to all sorts of problems, particularly on the net.

Then they expect you as a friend to fix said problems for free! The next time a plumber friend asks you to fix their PC ask them to first come round your house and plumb your bathroom for free and see what they say :D

But more importantly, these people are the ones with the zombie PC's causing so much spam / worm and virus problems on the net.

It's hardly fair to expect them to tell customers what they are buying when they don't even know what they are selling :suspect:

Very true, never NEVER buy from a retailer unless you know what you are buying, otherwise you are ripped off more often than not. Take your nearest friendly IT friend with you at the very least!

Problems with hacking and exploits to do with poor coding are unlikely to disappear with the introduction of Longhorn.

Any step towards a more secure OS such as Vista is always a good thing. The new feature stopping apps running without admin rights is very useful if not a little OTT is some cases. And yes I do know Linux has done this for years, one of the only parts of Linux worth copying IMO :D

Any step towards a more secure OS such as Vista is always a good thing.

Thoroughly beta-testing their code would be a better idea: If they wrote & tested, wrote & tested they mightn't get quite so many hacks! :hihi:

The new feature stopping apps running without admin rights is very useful if not a little OTT is some cases. And yes I do know Linux has done this for years, one of the only parts of Linux worth copying IMO :D

Well I don't particularly want to get into the "Which is better: Linux or Windows?" debate - everyone knows it's Linux which is the best. ;)

Well I don't particularly want to get into the "Which is better: Linux or Windows?" debate - everyone knows it's Linux which is the best. ;)

And that’s why Linux is such a dominant force in the market :hihi:

I remember back in 1998 Linus himself saying Linux is 5 years away from being an alternative to the Microsoft OS's. Hmm, its been almost 10 years now and we are still waiting :huh:

And that’s why Linux is such a dominant force in the market :hihi:

:o Sinner! Heretic! Deviant! :D

I remember back in 1998 Linus himself saying Linux is 5 years away from being an alternative to the Microsoft OS's. Hmm, its been almost 10 years now and we are still waiting :huh:

I doubt Linux'll ever compete in the same market on the same terms as the Windows family as MS products are just too well-established. For that to change you'd have to be looking at some dramatic new innovation that Windows just can't cope with, or for MS to make a mistake of some kind, or for economic collapse in the US or something.

To be honest I'd say the Mac way of doing things is the best way for home users who don't want to muck around with their box o'tricks much, but personally I think Macs are a little overpriced and I hate, hate, hate their mice.

Not that any of this has much bearing on whether I think there should be a computer test.

Today (had a lot of no-brainer queries this am) I'm thinking Yes - there should be a computer test. There should also be a clause that allows technical staff to beat other users over the head with a foam rubber mallet when they ask the same bloody question they've been asking for the past three months and expect a civil answer.