Ken Livingstone is still refusing to apologise for his Nazi remark made to a Jewish reporter.

Do you think he should apologise?

It's not unheard to be sacked for comments like this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4266927.stm

Originally posted by Lickszz
Ken Livingstone is still refusing to apologise for his Nazi remark made to a Jewish report.

Do you think he should apologise?

It's not unheard to be sacked for comments like this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4266927.stm

He will have his sword for that one if it carries on much longer.

Newts or no newts - Ken slipped up big time this time. Fancy asking any reporter if they were a German war criminal.

Now I like Ken Livingstone - but I'm not going to defend him for acting as stupidly as this.

I can understand his anger, given the long standing enmity between him and the vacuous right wing rag that is the "Staaaaaaaaaaaaaahndd" but he's been in politics long enough to know that making insults of this nature, on or off the record, is political suicide.

The longer he stands by his words the harder it gets for him to back down and issue an apology - which is the correct thing to do.

From what he said it looks like he was just trying to think of another job which people do that is generally despised by everyone, it's unfortunate that he picked that job and said it to that journalist. It would have been equally unfortunate to say someone was like an abortionist to a pregnant journalist.

Is it worse to compare a Jewish person to a concentration camp guard than to do the same to anyone else?

I'd be quite happy to see him made to quit if the same would be done to any public official for insulting someone. Being hyper sensetive to offence caused to Jewish people is in itself one of the progenitors of anti semetism.

For example the so called "untouchables" in Indian society are actually the lowest denomination of the caste system. (I know thats not an exact parallel but it is similar)

I think the point he was making to the ES journalist was that like a Concentration Camp Guard, the journalist was only doing his job - and not taking personal responsibility for his actions.

The fact that some jews did serve as concentration camp guards, much to the horror of their fellow inmates makes the jibe even less acceptable.

If he has said that he is standing by his words then I don't see how he can apologise.

Yes he should.

Ken Livingstone has always been very 'right on' about the causes he espouses and has tended to come down hard on those who disagree with him.

He of all people should know that the name calling he indulged in was bound to cause offense.

The guy whold apologise with as much humility as he can muster and then get on with his job.

If he can't he should resign.

Joe

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
I think the point he was making to the ES journalist was that like a Concentration Camp Guard, the journalist was only doing his job - and not taking personal responsibility for his actions.

The fact that some jews did serve as concentration camp guards, much to the horror of their fellow inmates makes the jibe even less acceptable.

It is only unacceptable if the analogy was unfair. Given that it was an ES journalist I suspect that it was in fact fair comment.

Originally posted by Zamo
It is only unacceptable if the analogy was unfair. Given that it was an ES journalist I suspect that it was in fact fair comment.

Sometimes politicians have to keep their thoughts to themselves though.

He should just apologise, admit it was a stupid thing to say, and the whole thing would die down. Sometimes politicians are just too bloody minded to apologise.

Not really listened to this issue but if he did say this ere there any wittnesses.
Journalists are usually economical with the truth.
If he did say it then yes he should have known better and I'm suprised that someone with his inteligence should say it.

Originally posted by Zamo
It is only unacceptable if the analogy was unfair. Given that it was an ES journalist I suspect that it was in fact fair comment.

I see.....

So ES journalists beat people, herd them in to gas chambers, throw people on to electric fences, set dogs on women and children, pull gold teeth out of prisoner's mouthes....

Journalism has changed a lot in recent years.

That is such a fatuous statement, Zamo, that I really hope you're trying to be funny and have just forgotten the smiley.

Joe

Originally posted by Yodameister
Sometimes politicians have to keep their thoughts to themselves though.

He should just apologise, admit it was a stupid thing to say, and the whole thing would die down. Sometimes politicians are just too bloody minded to apologise.

I'm don't especially like KL but sometimes it is refreshing when politicians speak their mind.

Hands-up if John Prescot went up in your estimations when he smacked the bloke who lobbed and egg at him. :clap: :heyhey: :clap:

This is what always happens when public figures who let ther mouths run away with them and start name calling.

I bet he wishes that he was as eloquent with his initial comment than he is currently being with his explanation.
He should have spoke about his actual experience with this journalist rather than a name calling insult.

I hope he doesn't lose his job, but I think he's skating on thin ice

Originally posted by muddycoffee
This is what always happens when public figures who let ther mouths run away with them and start name calling.

I bet he wishes that he was as eloquent with his initial comment than he is currently being with his explanation.
He should have spoke about his actual experience with this journalist rather than a name calling insult.

I hope he doesn't lose his job, but I think he's skating on thin ice walking on ice more like.
I doubt if Ken Livingstone will lose his job due to his popularity but he sould apologise.
He is the guy responsible for bringing the Tour DE France to London next year so we must keep him until at least then.:hihi:

Originally posted by JoePritchard
I see.....

So ES journalists beat people, herd them in to gas chambers, throw people on to electric fences, set dogs on women and children, pull gold teeth out of prisoner's mouthes....

Journalism has changed a lot in recent years.

That is such a fatuous statement, Zamo, that I really hope you're trying to be funny and have just forgotten the smiley.

Joe

I'm not arguing for the gagging of the press. If anything, I was arguing for the right of free speech!

People often use analogies to emphasise a point. I don't think KL was seriously implying that the journalist was responsible for mass murder... don't be so fatuous! ;)

I can see why Ken doesn't want to apologise. His remarks were not anti-Semitic. They were a comment on the nature of the Evening Standard (ie virulently right-wing, with all the associated bigotry and a history of, er, anti-Semitism).

In effect he said (to paraphrase), "You work for the Evening Standard? That's like working for Nazi party".

The response comes, "But I'm Jewish".

To which Ken responds (in effect), "Ah, the 'just following orders' excuse".

Not the greatest example of a witty comeback, but hardly a clarion call for race/faith hate!

Ken has an admirable record in promoting inter-racial and inter-faith harmony. He is not anti-Semitic. Too many people (mainly with an anti-Ken axe to grind) have jumped on the phrases "German war criminal" and "concentration camp guard" and the fact that the reporter is Jewish, and have added 2 + 2 to get 5.

The only thing Ken should regret is that he was foolish enough to make the comments on record, since he must have realised they'd be twisted beyond recognition.

But as Joe has already said, tabloid journaists may be somewhere near the bottom of the pile when it comes to charm, journalistic integrity etc. but as far as I know they are not involved in mass murder.

Noone should be likened to mass murderers unless there is a fair bit of evidence that they are involved in something a bit worse than peddling a few half truths in their newspapers.

Originally posted by Yodameister
But as Joe has already said, tabloid journaists may be somewhere near the bottom of the pile when it comes to charm, journalistic integrity etc. but as far as I know they are not involved in mass murder.

Noone should be likened to mass murderers unless there is a fair bit of evidence that they are involved in something a bit worse than peddling a few half truths in their newspapers.

I really don't get all the fuss. I don't suppose the journalist is having sleepless nights about it! What an over-sensitive world this is becoming.

Originally posted by Zamo
I really don't get all the fuss. I don't suppose the journalist is having sleepless nights about it! What an over-sensitive world this is becoming.

IThis is obviously news to you, but journaists are people too.

How would you feel if you had been publicly condemned in this way?

Okay, a lot of the people in the media don't really care about this and are using it as a stick to beat Livingstone with, but two wrongs don't make a right.

Originally posted by Yodameister
IThis is obviously news to you, but journaists are people too.

Yes, you're right. He is no doubt seriously traumatised by the experience and tinkering on the brink of a nervous breakdown because of it. Shame on me for being so insensitive to his sensitivities.

Originally posted by Yodameister
How would you feel if you had been publicly condemned in this way?

Are you talking about KL or the journalist?

http://media.guardian.co.uk/site/story/0,14173,1415070,00.html

Originally posted by boyface
http://media.guardian.co.uk/site/story/0,14173,1415070,00.html

OMG!!!

Just as well the lottery funding board reviewed their decision about funding Sheffield Samaritans...they'll be hundreds of traumatised journalists needing them now! ;)

There is very little doubt in my mind that the ES is milking this as hard as possible.

But Ken knows better - and a successful politician learns to guard their Tonge (sic) against eventualities exactly like this one.

He simply cannot afford to give his enemies ammunition like this.

Originally posted by boyface
http://media.guardian.co.uk/site/story/0,14173,1415070,00.html

"How can he bring in the suffering of his family for 24 years? There is no comparison with what we went through. I would have gladly exchanged my suffering with his," she said.

I realise that all the people in the camps suffered in terrible ways but I don't think that gives them the right to constantly go round declaring that no-one else ever has, or ever will suffer, as much as them and everyone elses pain is somehow less painfull.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
There is very little doubt in my mind that the ES is milking this as hard as possible.

But Ken knows better - and a successful politician learns to guard their Tonge (sic) against eventualities exactly like this one.

He simply cannot afford to give his enemies ammunition like this.

I think it's a vote winner myself.

I don't think he should apologise. Maybe he should apologise to the Jewish community in London, but not to this reporter.
It was a stupid flippant remark - Livingstone makes stupid flippant remarks sometimes. But what he also does is fight for his city, the inhabitants of his city, the people who work in his city, and he fights passionately for the rights of minorities in his city, whatever their race, colour, creed, and sexual persuation. I would give anything to have someone like that working for us in Sheffield.
It would be a disaster for our capital city if he was forced out of his job following another of the media's disingenuous campaigns, no doubt to be replaced by some New Labour drone whose only interest is his career and sucking up to dear Mr.Blair.

Give the guy a break,he says what he thinks which in this day and age is getting vere rare indeed,anyway whats wrong with free speech??
The P C brigade are at it again.

Originally posted by Zamo
I'm don't especially like KL but sometimes it is refreshing when politicians speak their mind.

Hands-up if John Prescot went up in your estimations when he smacked the bloke who lobbed and egg at him. :clap: :heyhey: :clap:


was that the guy from wales with the mullet:D