www.japanesebugfights.com

It is what it looks like.
I am curious what the feeling of the group is...

Cruel?
Does it matter, as they are only inverts?
Is it possible to be cruel to inverts...can they suffer?

EDIT:
No one should be able to see how you vote, so you can be completely honest :)

You got me on that one. I honestly can't answer. Are they fighting to hurt each other? (As I know nothing about the behavoir of these creatures). Would they colide naturally in the wild? (As I have no idea where each creature comes from). Can they feel pain? Do they get stressed? I would need a clearer picture to better judge.

I would say that phsically putting any creature in a confined space (i.e tiny tub) with the intention of them fighting is sick though. Cruel to me is causing unnecessary suffering, and I can't really say this is cruel because I don't know if they are suffering or not.

Some would meet naturally, some wont.

The whole idea of the fights is the 'bugs' that are used are predatory/naturally able to fight for whatever reason.

No doubt that unnecessary suffering is cruel... but are they suffering?

'stress' and 'pain' are subjective.
If the conditions in a spiders tank aren't right, the spider will behave differantly, within the spider keeping community that is often reffered to as stress behaviour.

That implies (not intentionally, term is just a description of behaviour) that spiders are capable of 'feeling'.

Does an animal need to be intelligent/conscious to suffer?
I think most people would agree that (most) inverts are not conscious entities.

I don'tknow enough about insects - they have a rudimentary nervous system and some are highly socialised, but as for pain and distress, I have no idea.

Having said that, if they do we're in so much trouble because if we don't keep the little blighters under control we'll starve. :)

I think it says a lot more about the human organsiers and participants...needing to impose power over small invertebrates like that...I bet they all have tiny willies. ;)


I think most people would agree that (most) inverts are not conscious entities.


Ever watched 'army' ants or termites?

It may be pheromonally conditioned but there's a lot of what looks like cognitive processing taking place.

Ever watched 'army' ants or termites?

It may be pheromonally conditioned but there's a lot of what looks like cognitive processing taking place.

Indeed, social insects can appear to have some collective conciousness ... but the step from apparent conciousness to accepting an animal *is* concious, is a big one.

I'm not sure about the cruelty aspect because my natural reaction is to anthropomorphicise the emotions going on- and that's even more inappropriate with invertebrates than it is with mammals. I know that my tarantulas could express preferences by not wanting to be round some people but refusing to be put down by others and had food preferences too, but I've never seen objective evidence either way round on whether invertebrates feel pain, fear or any other 'emotions'.

What I can say is that I don't enjoy watching humans boxing and would veto it happening if I could. I actively deplore dog fighting, bear and badger baiting and the like so notionally this is no different.

It is an abuse of our power as human beings to make these animals fight purely because we would like them to. They have the predatory powers and strength to enable them to eat to live or to defend themselves against other predators, not to provide entertainment.

I... I know that my tarantulas could express preferences by not wanting to be round some people but refusing to be put down by others and had food preferences too...
Do you think that is an active choice or a natural reaction to some other stimulii (eg. smell of detergent/perfumes on hand vs less strongly perfumed hand)

... They have the predatory powers and strength to enable them to eat to live or to defend themselves against other predators, not to provide entertainment.
Playing devils advocate for a moment...
Following that logic, is it wrong for the likes of sea-world to have performing dolphins?

What about tropical fish tanks at home...we keep them because they are interesting and in many cases colourful, ultimately they will die a futile death caused by our desire to enjoy them at home. Is that so differant?

Thought I would add for a bit of info about where I'm coming from, I have always found these anthropomorphic discussions very interesting to see reactions of 'the public' that may or may not have any real knowledge on the subjects (don't take that as a slur on any of you as you read this please!) .

One discussion I felt was missing from the Zoology course (BSc) I did so intend, eventually to study more through OU on this one :)

Being the sort of person who'd stop a wasp from drowning, I think it's cruel to force two creatures to fight for the entertainment of others.

Do you think that is an active choice or a natural reaction to some other stimulii (eg. smell of detergent/perfumes on hand vs less strongly perfumed hand)

I cannot answer that- I just know that they definitely knew the difference between people and continually chose the same people when they had the option.


Playing devils advocate for a moment...
Following that logic, is it wrong for the likes of sea-world to have performing dolphins?

As much as I love being able to see animals, I'd rather that places like Sea World and zoos didn't exist except to provide a home for animals that couldn't go back to the wild for their own safety. I also fundamentally disagree with choreographed performing for dolphins, although interaction can be important for enrichment, but as I said I would prefer that the dolphin was out in the ocean and not bored in the first place.

What about tropical fish tanks at home...we keep them because they are interesting and in many cases colourful, ultimately they will die a futile death caused by our desire to enjoy them at home. Is that so differant?

The same could be said for any pet really, and there are arguments that all pet ownership is wrong for those reasons. I think that it comes down to the sort of life, environment and stimulation that we can offer the animals. In a good aquarium the fish live a life as long and productive (literally) as they would have in the wild so it could be said that this isn't cruelty.

i feed bugs to my reptiles.

i feed bugs to my reptiles.

Another angle :thumbsup:

I feed to my lizards, spiders and scorps too.
Is that so differant really from the fighting of the critters?

Hmm... again, I don't know enough about them... personally I find it very distasteful but if it's not causing them stress or pain, I'm not sure I'd say it was cruel but how does anyone know whether an invertebrate is actually capable of feeling in that way?

Not sure how it makes me feel but I just wanted to say.. If a spider can run around the house when its got three legs missing, and its running just as it would with all it legs, does it feel pain? I don't know, the sight of it isn't appealing but doesn't make me cry like dog fights do.

I find that pitting any animal against each other to maim or kill is immoral.

Feeding crickets and locusts to reptiles is food not sport.

This is just another way round not being able to let dogs, Chickens or bears fight.

Are not all animals and life considered equal? no matter what species or type.

My feeling is that it is cruel. If two insects or any creature meets in the wild and fights to maim or death, then that is nature as much as it would upset me to witness it.

This however is not nature and in the wild the submissive creature would run off or back away, these insects I believe are in a fishtank (didnt watch the whole clip, only the first minute) so the submissive one is unable to run away and maybe survive another day.:(