I recently read that Parents could face fines if they take their kids on holiday during term time. I mean, what do the people who dream up these ideas exepct the parents to do? Not have a holiday? Some people have to take their holidays when they can and cannot pick when to have them.

Dear Lickszz,
I agree with you 100 per cent, who do these people think they are? dictating to us who work all year, then tell us when and how long our children can have off school for the holiday's. There ought to be protest's on the street's and marches like the ones we have just seen against war in Iraq. :lol: :D :roll:

Sorry but I totally disagree. I just do not believe that with 13 weeks holidays per year, not to mention the 5 teacher training days that parents cannot manage to obtain time off from work which coincides with some of the school hols.
If you are taking 2 weeks extra per year off school you are robbing your child of 6 months education over their school life.
I do agree that the holiday industry does rip us all off but that is another issue and Government could and should address it.
The bottom line is how highly do you value your children's education.

Mo

Originally posted by "Mo"

Sorry but I totally disagree. I just do not believe that with 13 weeks holidays per year, not to mention the 5 teacher training days that parents cannot manage to obtain time off from work which coincides with some of the school hols.
If you are taking 2 weeks extra per year off school you are robbing your child of 6 months education over their school life.
I do agree that the holiday industry does rip us all off but that is another issue and Government could and should address it.
The bottom line is how highly do you value your children's education.

Mo

Perhaps you should get in the real world. Not everybody can afford to pay high summer prices when it's peak time. I think it's the amount of Holidays that kids/teachers have that is a seperate issue.

Prices depend on what you do - if you can't afford one kind of holiday do something else. I can sympathise with the situation where parents can't get time off during school holidays or where a certain trip can only happen at a certain time, but taking kids out of school to miss peak prices? Be more imaginative about where you go. Not everywhere suddenly becomes prohibitively expensive.

Originally posted by "Chris Wade"

Prices depend on what you do - if you can't afford one kind of holiday do something else. I can sympathise with the situation where parents can't get time off during school holidays or where a certain trip can only happen at a certain time, but taking kids out of school to miss peak prices? Be more imaginative about where you go. Not everywhere suddenly becomes prohibitively expensive.

What do you mean prices depend on what you do? No matter where you go prices are higher and it's more difficult to get booked during peak season. Obviously money is not an issue to you and you are used to been able to afford to pay whatever it takes, not everybody has this luxury. If a place doesn't fluctuate in price during peak season then I should imagine that there isn't any real demand to visit this place. This is just one issue the main one been is that some people simply can't get time off work during kids holidays. My point is that it would cost a family more money either way. They either go away and get fined or go in peak season when kids are off and pay inflated prices. Perhaps the poorer families should sacrifice thinking about any holiday for 16 or so years until their child has left school, that's if they only have one of course.

Where do you normally go on holiday?

i think you should pay for a lisence to have children in the first place, then if you have more than 4 you should be fined as there are are too many children in the world already. Why not consider adopting?

As for holidays, if everyone took their kids on holiday at the same time the resorts would be full and prices would be sky high. I was never taken out of school for holidays as we never went anywhere but the holiday itself can be of more educational use to the child than two weeks in a boring school environment.

Learning about different countries and cultures - geography & history, foreign money - maths, perhaps picking up new languages, or at least having something decent to write about when the teacher says "write about something you enjoyed at some point in your life".

I think it's disgraceful for parents to take their children on holiday when they should be in school. There's no excuse.

I've been taken out of school a few times to go on holiday. I must say that this has only been in years 5 and 6 when the lessons I'd missed would hardly leave me at a disadvantage. I have also been to see the teacher to get a folder of work to catch up with in the evenings when I had returned to school.

A family holiday is rather expensive these days, when booking with a reputable travel operator, but whats more alarming is that Travel operators know parents value their child's education, so they add a few more quid on the price of the holiday to make sure that they're cashing in.

I can't see no problem with taking a child out of school for a holiday. As long as the timing is suitable (no exams or major tests to be taken) I cant see that there'd be a problem. I know the teachers would be peeved when a child isn't understanding the classwork that the rest of the kids are doing, but what would be so terrible about taking a worksheet home explaining what has to be learnt?!

Originally posted by "Sidla"

I think it's disgraceful for parents to take their children on holiday when they should be in school. There's no excuse.

But it's okay for the school to close for a week because of building work or teacher training days? surely all the teachers don't have to attend the training at once? There is plenty of genuine/viable excuses, you are just not looking hard enough.

Originally posted by "Anonymous"

i think you should pay for a lisence to have children in the first place, then if you have more than 4 you should be fined as there are are too many children in the world already. Why not consider adopting?

As for holidays, if everyone took their kids on holiday at the same time the resorts would be full and prices would be sky high. I was never taken out of school for holidays as we never went anywhere but the holiday itself can be of more educational use to the child than two weeks in a boring school environment.

Learning about different countries and cultures - geography & history, foreign money - maths, perhaps picking up new languages, or at least having something decent to write about when the teacher says "write about something you enjoyed at some point in your life".

Couldn't agree more... afterall you only a child once, you need to be a child not stuck with your head in a book all the time. Kids are under enough pressures these days and a break can do you good.

Originally posted by "Chris Wade"

Where do you normally go on holiday?

I don't know if you are asking me or not here but I shall answer anyway. I don't see what this has to do with anything, if your angle is prices, well just take a look at any Holiday brochure from your local Travel Agent and see how steeply the prices rise during summer months compared to may/october time....imagine working with a bunch of people who all want the same months off, but you all can't have this time off due to the needs of the business, what are you going to do then? I suppose you'd say not have a holiday at all, right?

No, I'm saying you're bound to end up paying excessively if you rely on someone else to arrange your holiday for you (ie., a travel operator). Try something different - if you look beyond high-street holidays you'll soon come across things to do that are less affected or unaffected by peak prices.

Oh, and if you'd looked at the post above

Originally posted by "Chris Wade"

I can sympathise with the situation where parents can't get time off during school holidays...

you'll see I don't have a problem with kids taken out of school occasionally because of parents not being able to take time off. But this argument's going to look lame pretty quickly - unless you're the most downtrodden employee at your place of work I find it hard to believe you'll be forced to work during July/August every year.

Originally posted by "Chris Wade"

No, I'm saying you're bound to end up paying excessively if you rely on someone else to arrange your holiday for you (ie., a travel operator). Try something different - if you look beyond high-street holidays you'll soon come across things to do that are less affected or unaffected by peak prices.

Like what for instance? Most people actually find going on Holiday stressful enough without having to sort it all out yourself.

Lickszz I do very much live in the real world. With a couple of kids and only one income things can be tough and a list of priorities is often drawn up. We go on one weeks holiday in the school holidays instead of 2 weeks in term time....so this may be part of the answer. We also holiday in this country. I also agree with Chris Wade not everything that is enjoyable to do needs to be expensive.

Mo
Ps I know you are against guest posting but I am having technical probs [/quote]

I think schools are totally out of order to fine parents for taking children out of school for a holiday. In any case the fines will have to be enormous to discourage parents, otherwise even with a fine it'll still be cheaper to take the children on holiday during school time.

I can see it could be a problem if parents were taking their children out of lessons for two or three holidays a year, but I don't see it's a problem if it's one holiday of no more than two weeks.

Perhaps the schools ought to account for this and allow a two-week 'holiday allowance' for children to take off when their parents need them to.

As a parent myself I take my children on holiday during half-term, when it's not as busy as the main summer holidays, and not every school takes the same week off for half-term so it's not that busy. Unfortunately you don't get the best of the weather then.

Originally posted by "Lickszz"

I think it's disgraceful for parents to take their children on holiday when they should be in school. There's no excuse.

but it's okay for the school to close for a week because of building work or teacher training days? surely all the teachers don't have to attend the training at once? There is plenty of genuine/viable excuses, you are just not looking hard enough.
The school would work around these closures so that all the work would be delivered. If one or 2 people go on holiday the pupils will miss the work while they're away.

Originally posted by "Sidla"

I think it's disgraceful for parents to take their children on holiday when they should be in school. There's no excuse.

but it's okay for the school to close for a week because of building work or teacher training days? surely all the teachers don't have to attend the training at once? There is plenty of genuine/viable excuses, you are just not looking hard enough.
The school would work around these closures so that all the work would be delivered. If one or 2 people go on holiday the pupils will miss the work while they're away.

That's not quite true. I know a school that closed for building work recently and the pupils just had a extended holiday with no extra homework etc.

What was the background to this? I'd be interested to know some more information.

Originally posted by "Lickszz"

That's not quite true. I know a school that closed for building work recently and the pupils just had a extended holiday with no extra homework etc.
But the work would still have to be covered. Schools must by law cover all work on the sylabus.

Originally posted by "Sidla"

[quote="Lickszz"]That's not quite true. I know a school that closed for building work recently and the pupils just had a extended holiday with no extra homework etc.
But the work would still have to be covered. Schools must by law cover all work on the sylabus.

So how will this work be covered then? with more homework? is that a good idea? by the same principles then it shouldn't matter if a child takes a kid out of school to go on holiday so long as the work gets covered, yes?

Originally posted by "Chris Wade"

What was the background to this? I'd be interested to know some more information.

Is this in response to me?

Originally posted by "Lickzz"

Is this in response to me?

Yes. I wanted to know more about

Originally posted by "Lickszz"

That's not quite true. I know a school that closed for building work recently and the pupils just had a extended holiday with no extra homework etc.

as you'd not said enough about why this 'extended holiday' happened for me to be able to comment.

By law, schools have to maintain their buildings to a safe standard, but if you've ever seen a school's budget you'd know how difficult that is. Altering a building and paying for alternative teachers / teaching facilities at the same time is not always feasible simply because they don't have enough money. What happens here is that the work that needs to be undertaken is undertaken in a shorter space of time, putting teachers under pressure to teach more in a shorter space of time. They cover all subjects required by the national curriculum (which they have to do by law), but invariably the students miss out on time the teacher should have available to explain things in more detail or approach the subject in a clearer (but more time-consuming) way, eg., writing the history of Sheffield on a blackboard instead of taking them to Kelham Island. The fault of all this lies with the government and underfunding of schools. I don't know if it will be any better or worse with the new PFI schools - under the PFI agreement a contractor deals with the maintenance of a school over a 25 year period - whether the contractor would bother laying on alternative facilities during maintenance or simply close the school remains to be seen. The latter is, of course, cheaper for the contractor.

If you think teachers can be replaced by homework, you've either missed the point of teachers or have had some rotten teachers teach you (and yes, I do know some exist). Follow your argument and we could end up arguing whether we need teachers at all when there are books and curriculum plans to follow. Children need their time in school because the teacher's job is more than just regurgitating information. The teacher's job is to understand what needs to be taught and put this across in a way that is meaningful to the children they are teaching. Books can't do that because the author of the book doesn't know anything about the person reading it. All the book can do is lay out the information in as clear and logical manner as possible. Of course children need to be taught how to use books to gain information as that's an essential skill when they're older, but a 9 year old faced with just a book is likely to learn less than a 9 year old who has a teacher to explain what the book means.

Originally posted by "Chris Wade"

[quote="Lickzz"]Is this in response to me?

as you'd not said enough about why this 'extended holiday' happened for me to be able to comment.

I didn't explain anything about the holiday because I wasn't fully aware you were responding to me because you never quoted me.

Originally posted by "Lickszz"

Is this in response to me?

as you'd not said enough about why this 'extended holiday' happened for me to be able to comment.

I didn't explain anything about the holiday because I wasn't fully aware you were responding to me because you never quoted me.

I apologise. I didn't feel my post needed clarifying with a quote - it seemed to make sense without.

Do you have any more info about the circumstances that led to this 'holiday'?

Originally posted by "Chris Wade"

Oh, and if you'd looked at the post above

I can sympathise with the situation where parents can't get time off during school holidays...

you'll see I don't have a problem with kids taken out of school occasionally because of parents not being able to take time off. But this argument's going to look lame pretty quickly - unless you're the most downtrodden employee at your place of work I find it hard to believe you'll be forced to work during July/August every year.

I dunno...depends what you do....if you work somewhere which does huge amounts of business in summer, it's unlikely. I mean, I used to work for Forbidden Planet and with it's main business being done during vacation times, we ere stopped from having holidays between June and August. Too many sticky mitted kids. December was out, too.

If by some miracle, I ever had kids, that would cause a serious problem.

Originally posted by "Chris Wade"

[quote="Lickszz"][quote="Chris Wade"][quote="Lickzz"]Is this in response to me?

as you'd not said enough about why this 'extended holiday' happened for me to be able to comment.



I apologise. I didn't feel my post needed clarifying with a quote - it seemed to make sense without.

Do you have any more info about the circumstances that led to this 'holiday'?

ok, you seem to want to know the name of the school which I thought was not necessary but ok. The school is Chaucer School. Recently sold the top half of the school and had a complete new building built joining onto the old one. As I said, an extra week off for kids attached to the recent half term holiday. I know this because I know some pupils who attend and they had this extra week off.

Is there anything else you want to know?

Originally posted by "Chris Wade"

Oh, and if you'd looked at the post above

I can sympathise with the situation where parents can't get time off during school holidays...

you'll see I don't have a problem with kids taken out of school occasionally because of parents not being able to take time off. But this argument's going to look lame pretty quickly - unless you're the most downtrodden employee at your place of work I find it hard to believe you'll be forced to work during July/August every year.

Why do you find it hard to believe that it's not possible to always get July/August? Imagine this for example, working in a large retail store for instance. Somewhere large like this obviously needs a certain amount of people to run the business, imagine a small section you work in consists of about 7-10 people with the majority having kids, chances are that no more than 2 will be allowed holidays at a time. There is no way that you'll all be able to get 2 weeks off during any of those months. You'll be all fighting for the same months and someone is going to miss out.

Originally posted by "Lickszz"

You'll be all fighting for the same months and someone is going to miss out.

You're not trying very hard if you're the one who misses out and you manage to miss out every year.

Look, I'm open to people explaining why they have problems at work booking holidays during term time but your arguments aren't going to be believable unless you provide some detail, which you've only just done. And you don't help matters by listing excuses such as holidays taken during August being dearer! Despite the comment above, I do sympathise with someone in the situation you've given (so long as they do at least try to get holiday time during the school holidays). Your argument shouldn't be about whether you should be allowed to take kids out of school, but whether employers should take a more intelligent approach to holiday time - along with paternity leave and job sharing, employers are often pathetic at providing adequately. If you're a good parent then you wouldn't want to deprive your kids of their education because your employer doesn't understand the needs of a family - it strikes me in earlier posts that people don't really understand the value of their kids going to school.

Originally posted by "Chris Wade"

[quote="Lickszz"]You'll be all fighting for the same months and someone is going to miss out.

You're not trying very hard if you're the one who misses out and you manage to miss out every year.

Look, I'm open to people explaining why they have problems at work booking holidays during term time but your arguments aren't going to be believable unless you provide some detail, which you've only just done. And you don't help matters by listing excuses such as holidays taken during August being dearer! Despite the comment above, I do sympathise with someone in the situation you've given (so long as they do at least try to get holiday time during the school holidays). Your argument shouldn't be about whether you should be allowed to take kids out of school, but whether employers should take a more intelligent approach to holiday time - along with paternity leave and job sharing, employers are often pathetic at providing adequately. If you're a good parent then you wouldn't want to deprive your kids of their education because your employer doesn't understand the needs of a family - it strikes me in earlier posts that people don't really understand the value of their kids going to school.

Where the hell do I mention anything about this been about me? you keep continuing to mis quote me at every opportunity. I have never once said I had problems getting holidays myself and I have never once stated on this forum that I have children. Those are details that I currently consider to be private and choose to keep them that way for the time been. I was speaking from experience because I mix with a vast array of people from all different backgrouds and I know that these are very common problems. Good parent nothing. You only live once and your are entitled to a holiday, some rich people have 3-4 a year. The poor people have to do whatever they can. I have provided you with sufficent enough details, I even gave you the name of the actual school in question which I didn't feel was at all necessary. Holiday are more expensive in Peak times, this is fact, I have not made this up!. It is so obvious that you have no idea about what it's like to live on the type of budget I am talking about. Do you not understand what been a kid is all about? it's not about all work, it's about having fun and enjoying the best years of your life. You need time to be a kid. I have also provided ample facts as to where it's not always possible to get the holidays off that is required. The Employers are hardly going to be interested are they? Their primary concern is the needs of the business. Which brings me onto another issue, I have just learned that schools these days seem to be allowing kids a few more extra days off, this is like a parents day but happens after every holiday period. Parents are not obliged to attend. How many missed days does this add up to per year? You can't honestly talk about how vital it is to not miss days when things like this and total school closures are going off can you? When I used to attend school it used to be "Parents Evening".

There must be some way for the parents to proove that they cannot go at anyother time except term time.
If my memory is correct I'm sure that when my parents could not go during the school holidays I had to take a form home for my father to fill in.This would be back in the 1960's can anyone else remember this ?

I don't think the cost of holidays should be the excuse.I'm sure that a week out of term time (if that is the only time the parents can get time off work) should not do any harm to the education of a child.

P.S. If the parents should end up getting fined who or what will get the money?

Originally posted by "Tricia"

There must be some way for the parents to proove that they cannot go at anyother time except term time.
If my memory is correct I'm sure that when my parents could not go during the school holidays I had to take a form home for my father to fill in.This would be back in the 1960's can anyone else remember this ?

I don't think the cost of holidays should be the excuse.I'm sure that a week out of term time (if that is the only time the parents can get time off work) should not do any harm to the education of a child.

P.S. If the parents should end up getting fined who or what will get the money?

The logical thing would be to give it to that particular schools budget I would have though but perhaps that's just a little too easy.

Originally posted by "Lickszz"

Where the hell do I mention anything about this been about me? you keep continuing to mis quote me at every opportunity.

I didn't say it was anything to do with you once you mentioned it wasn't your kids and your job you were writing about. And I'm quite sure I haven't mis-quoted you - only argued against you, which involves taking a different view to you, not mis-quoting you.

I also didn't mean to imply that you have children. By 'your kids' I mean anyone's kids but mine - you're not the only person in the thread other than me. I guess I could say 'the children of the parents we are referring to', but that'll make these messages a right pain to read! I'll keep writing 'your child' or 'your kid' - just don't take it to mean your children personally.

Originally posted by "Lickszz"

You only live once and your are entitled to a holiday, some rich people have 3-4 a year. The poor people have to do whatever they can.

I agree, but you also only get one decent chance at going to school. Few people in this forum have even mentioned the value of school - if they're going to make an argument in favour of taking kids out of school then that should at least be considered.

Originally posted by "Lickszz"

I have provided you with sufficent enough details, I even gave you the name of the actual school in question which I didn't feel was at all necessary.

Maybe not, but without a bit of detail about why the school closed it's difficult for me to say whether I approve of their actions or not (and if I did think closing could have been avoided I'd have been on your side of the argument)

Originally posted by "Lickszz"

Holiday are more expensive in Peak times, this is fact, I have not made this up!. It is so obvious that you have no idea about what it's like to live on the type of budget I am talking about.

Transport and accomodation are the only essential parts of a holiday that are likely to be affected by peak prices and both of those depend on where you go and how you stay there. If you want to go abroad, airlines offer cheap flights all year round (not just out of peak) - if you stay in the UK this isn't an issue. Accomodation doesn't need to mean a hotel with a pool.

Originally posted by "Lickszz"

Do you not understand what been a kid is all about?

Of course I do - I'm only in my 20's. And I've got friends and colleagues who have kids. I like to see them enjoy their time together and know what that means to them.

Originally posted by "Lickszz"

it's not about all work, it's about having fun and enjoying the best years of your life. You need time to be a kid.

I agree. Which is why I deplore this government's attitude to child testing. Anyone - child or adult - learns best when the subject and the way it's taught appeals to their imagination. Sitting in front of a test paper doesn't achieve that, and neither does doing homework when you're 7 and you should be out playing with your friends after school. You don't have to go on holiday to achieve that time, though.

Originally posted by "Lickszz"

I have also provided ample facts as to where it's not always possible to get the holidays off that is required. The Employers are hardly going to be interested are they? Their primary concern is the needs of the business.

I also agree with this, which is why a change in attitude (and possibly law) is needed. It's nothing to do with your child's education, though - even though I sympathise with employees of narrow-minded employers, I still think your posts should recognise who is at fault here (the employers, not the schools).

Originally posted by "Lickszz"

Which brings me onto another issue, I have just learned that schools these days seem to be allowing kids a few more extra days off, this is like a parents day but happens after every holiday period. Parents are not obliged to attend. How many missed days does this add up to per year? You can't honestly talk about how vital it is to not miss days when things like this and total school closures are going off can you? When I used to attend school it used to be "Parents Evening".

I know the answer I'll get if I ask for further information. I'll go look this one up.

It should be recognised that schools don't set their illogical rules - more often than not it's the local education authorities and the government. The value of education should also be recognised - the narrow-minded attitudes of many employers seems to rule over this when it shouldn't. Now I agree that there is little that most people can do about this, and some people find holiday time difficult to come by, but parents are complaining at the wrong people if they complain at schools for imposing fines. It is merely schools (and the local authorities) laying down what is, quite rightly, law. It works exactly the same the other way round - take time off work when you shouldn't and you'll receive a penalty. Only in that instance the penalty is greater. If children were expelled from school for taking holidays during term time (not, I should point out, something I'm suggesting - I'm not even sure fines are an appropriate solution) and employers started fining parents for taking time of work when they shouldn't, I'm sure the argument at the start of this thread would have been against the employers, not the schools.

Originally posted by "Chris"


[quote]I know the answer I'll get if I ask for further information. I'll go look this one up.

It should be recognised that schools don't set their illogical rules - more often than not it's the local education authorities and the government. The value of education should also be recognised - the narrow-minded attitudes of many employers seems to rule over this when it shouldn't. Now I agree that there is little that most people can do about this, and some people find holiday time difficult to come by, but parents are complaining at the wrong people if they complain at schools for imposing fines. It is merely schools (and the local authorities) laying down what is, quite rightly, law. It works exactly the same the other way round - take time off work when you shouldn't and you'll receive a penalty. Only in that instance the penalty is greater. If children were expelled from school for taking holidays during term time (not, I should point out, something I'm suggesting - I'm not even sure fines are an appropriate solution) and employers started fining parents for taking time of work when they shouldn't, I'm sure the argument at the start of this thread would have been against the employers, not the schools.

I never said that schools were acutally to blame here, I am just totally against the idea of fining parents, I mean...it's like truency for example, there is only so much a parent can do to make a teenage child go to school but here we have parents up in court, if a parent has tried to get their child to attend school and totally co-operated with the school then in theory they shouldn't find themselves up in court but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't or couldn't still happen. I say this because fining parents for kids truency is the next logical step if we are determined to go down this road. Where does it stop? There has to be another way, perhaps term times need to be re-ajusted.

By the way Chris. I would be more than happy to provide you with further imformation but not on an open board. It would have to be via PM.

I just thought I'd bring back to life this old thread from 2003.

My daughter is 6-years old, in the first year of school. We have a couple of holidays booked, out of term. We have been refused permission by the school to take these holidays;

I will be fined - which doesn't bother me, cause the cost of holidays outside of term outway the outragous cost of summer holidays anyway.

If my daughter was 14 or 15 year old studying moch exams or her GCSE's, then I can understand, but I cannot beleive that a 6-year old will miss out on VITAL education during a 2 or 3 week holiday.

In fact, some of the places I take my daughter, provide her with a greater education (we don't just sit on a beach on our holidays). My daughter has been to more countries over the past 5-years than she can count which has provided her with a valuable knowledge.

What I appose is people who suggest that people who take their children out of school, have no regard for education. My daughter is ahead of most of her class in Reading, Writing and Math (and certainly Geography if they studied this at 6-year old).

In any event, I'll pay the fines and live with the 'unauthorised' absence.

Anyone else in a similar sailing craft.