Imagine for a moment, yourself going into Sheffield town centre and began homing in on and randomly joining in all the conversations, would you be seen as mentally ill? What if you had a sign round your neck saying 'Forum'? What if there were lots of other 'subscribers' milling round with the same sign...? Any fool can imagine this would be a no win situation.

I browse (and sometimes join in) the topics on this forum and am starting to feel quite strange and depressed. Perhaps somehow I could somehow be tested for insecurities by some clever system...

I took this from a web page (linked by inputting 'internet interfacing communication psychology' into Google)

"No Face-to-Face Cues -- In the typed text of e-mail, you can't see other people's faces or hear them speak. All those subtle voice and body language cues are lost, which can make the nuances of communicating more difficult."

This may seem obvious, however, it troubles me in various ways, as to how so many people seem to try and communicate quite intense personal opinions, extreme politics, theories on sensitive subjects etc. in an extremely artifical environment. As we can plainly see, the 'moderators' of this forum have a difficult time, constanty issuing warnings, deleting and trying to shape the threads, trying to guide discussions etc. giving would be supporters of 'free-speech' and 'democracy' regular cause for confusion, often blaming their own 'leaders'... Sound familiar?

I say troubles me as I offer no theories or knowledge on the matter, only my own experience; even writing this I open myself up to the possibility of any one of thousands of a completely random selection of humans, deranged, malicious, genuine or otherwise, at any given moment.

Here's an ineresting quote from University of Florida paper called 'The Internet Regression'*

"Talking on the Internet, people regress. It's that simple. It can be one-to-one talk on e-mail or many-to-many talk on one of the LISTs or newsgroups. People regress, expressing sex and aggression as they never would face to face."

So on a practical (and personal) level, I am slowly realising that if I express in a discussion what I consider personally positive or constructive it is almost certain that I will be faced with the opposite (negative, deconstructive) from a 'regressive' source. That's why its depressing; there's a part of me that naturally wants to communicate with people, thats why I use the forum, but there's another part of me that is having to learn quite a hard lesson that many of the recipients of my posts will offer no nurturing (encouragement, support, etc.) and moreover, attempt to assert their own regressive characteristics by abusing and attacking any form of threat to their own agenda and status quo. It's not only troubling on a subjective level but troubling from an objective viewpoint too: ie. how many people are being mentally damaged by using an internet forum because they don't realise the subtle dangers? Many, perhaps naive people will imagine the forum is a fair representation of the 'people of Sheffield'. Even on a psychologically neutral dimension, using a computer for 'recreational communication' (which is what all opinion turns out as on a public forum as no genuine growth can occur in a predominantly regressive environment) can never be a substitute for genuine, physical contact, however trivial.

I have used this forum for many practical uses, buying, selling, information exchange etc. and from that side it has been useful.

I consider it incumbent on those responsible for internet forums to offer clear and simple guidelines and advice to users and would-be users, perhaps by researching the current problems which can lead to the inevitable damage of the individual and the community. I myself would certainly not like to be reponsible for a 'city internet forum' and will certainly be on my guard for these regressive influences, in the street as well. Speaking of which, its high time I got out into the 'real world'...

The Prophet Muhammad said: "Speak unto those according to their own level of understanding". The implications of applying this on the internet are far reaching.

Moodi

* http://www.rider.edu/~suler/psycyber/holland.html

There are many forms of communication, of which the internet forum is but one. Its only regarded as artificial because its a new medium. Far from being inherently or potentially damaging, uninhibited (or less inhibited) expression can serve as a useful outlet and release. Your post seems to suggest, implicitly if not explicitly, that some form of censorship of internet fora would be a good idea - whether this is done via a moderator or by some form of external legal constraint is not clear. This in my view is a very bad idea and is no different from the arguments against free speach and free expression that have been used and abused down the ages.

Why not just leave the forum for adults who know their own mind, what they are doing and what the obvious limitations are then?
If it troubles you stay away. My earilest post (googled) is back in 1997 - that's 8 years of posting to newsgroups and forums. Perhaps you are just inexperienced and have joined with some naive preconceptions as to how a forum compares to real life and have been dissapointed?

For the record, people who post to forums ALSO have real lives and debate the same issues with friends etc face to face. Your idea (which you have expressed in a previous but now deleted posting) that this is some sort of hideout for cowards is totally ill judged. There are many people on this forum who do know each other personlly. I have supplied my address to at least 5 people who regularly contribute (you can have it - just pm).

Your posting smacks of some feeble pseudo-intellectual attempt at taking some sort of moral high ground against us forum users who you view as hiding from the real world.
Your utterly wrong, and I think it is you who needs to get out more......

i can see the thread posters point of view in 18 months of using the forum i honestly belive it doesnt represent the views of the 'people of Sheffield' on the whole it can be very clique on here at times and to be honest theres no point arguing with a bunch of middle class know it alls on some kind of ego boost to be honest its just a waste of time

there ive said it:) :) :)

Originally posted by panda79
i can see the thread posters point of view in 18 months of using the forum i honestly belive it doesnt represent the views of the 'people of Sheffield' on the whole it can be very clique on here at times and to be honest theres no point arguing with a bunch of middle class know it alls on some kind of ego boost to be honest its just a waste of time

there ive said it:) :) :)

That's quite interesting that you see the majority as middle class?
I wouldn't have thought so myself.

I admit that there is usualy a polarisation of people - fascists on one side, lefty do-gooders on the other - on some threads. But then its a big forum and these do not occur on entertainment or sports threads for instance.

Again though, if its waste of time, why are you posting?

Actualy - I think I'll stop posting but for none of the reasons given in this thread.
The Mod's seem intent on ruining the forum by ****-poor moderation of threads. But it's their forum to do as they wish so enjoy it the rest of you!

Why should it be representative of the views of the people of Sheffield? It is an open forum and anyone can post.

Panda, as your your pejorative use of the term 'middle class', this is just a cheap and lazy way of avoiding a serious argument. Who are what is 'middle class' these days? i.e. in the era of post-industrialisation when well over 70% of the population work in the services sector. Are you suggesting that the views of 'working class' people (however defined and whoever they are) should be given some special status or should be regarded more favourably than thiose of the sp-called middle classes'?

Hmmmm.....

After 20 years os using different forms of computer mediated communication I don't believe I'm a worse communicator than when I started.

The lack of body language cues and such are there in letters / postcards (remember those) and I honestly think a loit of crap is written about these issues to generate academic research projects.

On the whole, I've usually found that although people may be more outgoing online - there's a lot more flirting and such, that's clear, and agression - people who behave like horse's arses on line also behave like that offline - and vice versa.

Joe

Originally posted by kilauea
Actualy - I think I'll stop posting but for none of the reasons given in this thread.
The Mod's seem intent on ruining the forum by ****-poor moderation of threads. But it's their forum to do as they wish so enjoy it the rest of you!

Usually when I see references to complaints about the standard of moderating it means that we've done smething an individual disagrees with....

Can you give some examples of how we ruin things? This is a genuine question - I like to try and take on board constructive criticism where I can.

Joe

As long as you still communicate with "real" people as well as over the internet, i think communicating via the internet can actually improve your communication skills. You practice expressing yourself concisely and accurately (well, except for my punctuation, that is always terrible!). It really is not much different to writing letters, just much quicker!
I have met up with people on the forum who were all as nice and normal as I expected them to be, and whilst there might be some weirdo's out there, I haven't met them (I don't think!).
Sometimes aggression does come out, but it is almost always pretty good natured, and a difference of opinion is to be expected, as it would if you met someone face to face.
If I were to go out tonight and meet some compelete strangers in a pub I don't see how that is much different. You really can't judge people by their appearances afterall.

The, ' inevitable damage of the individual and the community' happened years before all this forum stuff started. Try to stop thinking too deeply about it all.

If anything, the internet has enabled a new world community. I think it's good to read other peoples views on life, because let's face if you do it at work out loud you end up saying more things you have not thought through, than on this site.

Well,

Speaking for myself, I joined this forum (even though I'm probably the farthest thing from a Sheffielder) to "talk" and exchange ideas, and just observe how things and people are in another part of the world.

I've found in some ways they're very different, and in some ways, they're remarkably similar. There's cultural differences, to be sure! But people are people.

Sure, theres folks who are emboldened by being "anonymous" on the internet. But the same thing happens to some people when they drive their cars. They feel no qualms whatsoever about giving someone else the finger, or shouting an obscenity. Things they'd NEVER do if the person was standing right in front of them. (I try to remember that when someone's rude to me on the road, lol)

I do agree that something is missing when you can't talk to someone face to face, but that's the price we pay for this wonderful form of communication. It enables people who would never have met in real life to talk. And I think that's pretty cool.

And eventually, someone's true nature will come out. On the internet or in real life. They might be able to keep it hidden for awhile, but it ALWAYS comes out. I don't believe these people who express astonishment to find that they're married to a serial killer, or that their spouse has been having an affair. The signs were there. Maybe subtle, but they're there. They choose to ignore it.

I think overall, the Mods do a pretty good job. They can't be everywhere at once. I can only think of one instance when the Moderator obviously agreed with a certain poster's views, and let the thread go on, when another Mod would have either given warnings, or closed the thread.

They're sort of like the police. We may not agree with the way they handle every situation, but where would we be without them? And if a thread takes a turn I don't care for, I just stop reading. No big deal.


:) Sierra

I really do think that too many people take the forum far too seriously.

Just relax and enjoy - and dammit, it's free!

True.. any more bad dreams mate?

Strangely enough, I had a dream last night in which I was abroad on holiday and got got off with one of the girls I used to fancy at school, but I wouldn't class that as too bad, would you?

The thing is, it always seems to follow some sort of holiday theme. This has been going on for some six months now.

Have you ever considered you might actully need a holiday??

I was talking in my sleep last night, I was in fact having my same re-occuring dream too... it alway involves my old house that I lived in as a child. But I put it down to the wind last night keeping me awake. My boyfreind calls me an 'old cider women' coz I talk in my sleep... like a mad old drunk! ha ha

Oh yes, I need a holiday. Actually, we'd better carry on this discussion in the appropriate thread thus keeping this thread on topic.

I'd hate the Thread Bobbies to come knocking at our doors!

Perish the thought!

I find it interesting when someone on the Forum insults another member the put a smiley face on the end or says ********** then puts, Just Kidding !

Originally posted by JoePritchard
Usually when I see references to complaints about the standard of moderating it means that we've done smething an individual disagrees with....

Can you give some examples of how we ruin things? This is a genuine question - I like to try and take on board constructive criticism where I can.

Joe

I'll give you an example Joe.

If an individual has a genuine grievance with how the site is run, be it generally or a particular incident, if they start a thread about it, it usually always gets deleted and Geoff posts a message saying that site enquiries should be done in private via him.

Why must they be done in private? IMO, forumers would respect the moderating team more if issues were openly discussed and policies decided on as a result of member ideas and communication.

Instead, we get a 'nanny state', where far too much is censored, deleted and so on, usually with little/no explanation. Its like the mods are the teachers ant the rest of us are the kids.

I could understand it better if the grievance is based around a particular user, who would very much hate having a thread about them, but I think it should up to the 'victim' in question to complain if this is the case.

Rather than offend anyone, stuff just gets banned/censored, which limits the conversation and puts people off joining in.

Other forums I go on are moderated in a much more laissez-faire way and I prefer that style to the one employed here.

Any response to my previous post?

IMO, the internet, and the forum in particular is a marvellous way of interacting with people. I grew up on the Manor and as such my speech and mannerisms are 'common as muck'.
This has often meant that i start talking to people and they automatically look down me.

On the internet people can not hear me and put their own voice to me. This suites me fine as people will rarely do worse than i actually sound. The term 'Never judge a book by it's cover' springs to mind.

Originally posted by JoePritchard
Hmmmm.....

After 20 years os using different forms of computer mediated communication I don't believe I'm a worse communicator than when I started.

The lack of body language cues and such are there in letters / postcards (remember those) and I honestly think a loit of crap is written about these issues to generate academic research projects.

On the whole, I've usually found that although people may be more outgoing online - there's a lot more flirting and such, that's clear, and agression - people who behave like horse's arses on line also behave like that offline - and vice versa.

Joe

Mod:

1. You're entitled to your personal beliefs and they cannot be contended..!

2. When you write a letter it isn't written to 8000+ anonymous people! What a bad comparison sir! And to dismiss my reference to the Doctor's writing as 'crap' is highly questionable.

3. You basically agree with my point on regression it seems. NB* seems one or two people have confused regression with agression.

Some may imagine I started this thread as an attack against the users of a 'lesser or comparable method of communication'. This is typical, by its very nature, I expect no more.
There are no answers. There is only constant reasessment and clarification. Electricity is another form of energy, value it less than love.

moodi

Originally posted by dinp
Other forums I go on are moderated in a much more laissez-faire way and I prefer that style to the one employed here.
I like this one, and let's face it, we're a strong bunch of characters on here, discussing some contesious (can't spell that) issues, so we do need reigning in occasionally (shame the same doesn't happen to some of the political slagging matches :rolleyes: )

Originally posted by Aaarrrggghhh
...I consider it incumbent on those responsible for internet forums to offer clear and simple guidelines and advice to users and would-be users, perhaps by researching the current problems which can lead to the inevitable damage of the individual and the community. I myself would certainly not like to be reponsible for a 'city internet forum' and will certainly be on my guard for these regressive influences, in the street as well. Speaking of which, its high time I got out into the 'real world'...

The Prophet Muhammad said: "Speak unto those according to their own level of understanding". The implications of applying this on the internet are far reaching.

Moodi

* http://www.rider.edu/~suler/psycyber/holland.html

The associated articles made very interesting reading too. Interesting to see Vonnegut's snerts reprised in academic literature.

The regression factor is very common, and to some (myself included) almost irresistable on occasion.

The article you quoted was quite firmly rooted in Freudian psychology, and hence the term regression. I would just add that regression is not inherently positive or negative.

But I was interested to learn about the academic research that has been conducted in online "communities" - and how this is leading to some interesting conclusions about strategies to reduce the destructive effects of 'internet-regression' without locking out the benefits.

Interesting stuff.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
The regression factor is very common, and to some (myself included) almost irresistable on occasion.

You mean only on the internet I presume?


The article you quoted was quite firmly rooted in Freudian psychology, and hence the term regression. I would just add that regression is not inherently positive or negative.

How do you draw these conclusions?


But I was interested to learn about the academic research that has been conducted in online "communities" - and how this is leading to some interesting conclusions about strategies to reduce the destructive effects of 'internet-regression' without locking out the benefits.

Interesting stuff.

Really? But Dr.Holland's concluding point isn't very healthy: "I like this Internet regression. I find it a fascinating marriage of the most sophisticated human technology with our half-savage, half-animal psyches. I think it's something new and amazing and quite wonderful in the spectrum of human relations." Can you expand on your last point a bit?

moodi

Originally posted by vidster
IMO, the internet, and the forum in particular is a marvellous way of interacting with people. I grew up on the Manor and as such my speech and mannerisms are 'common as muck'.
This has often meant that i start talking to people and they automatically look down me.

On the internet people can not hear me and put their own voice to me. This suites me fine as people will rarely do worse than i actually sound. The term 'Never judge a book by it's cover' springs to mind.

I like this idea. On a Forum, at least to start off with, you are equal to all the others, regardless of professional or social status. It's then up to you as to whether you aspire to attain dizzy new heights, come crashing down badly, or just stay somewhere in the middle.

It's a new start in a different kind of World.

Originally posted by dinp
I'll give you an example Joe.

If an individual has a genuine grievance with how the site is run, be it generally or a particular incident, if they start a thread about it, it usually always gets deleted and Geoff posts a message saying that site enquiries should be done in private via him.

Why must they be done in private? IMO, forumers would respect the moderating team more if issues were openly discussed and policies decided on as a result of member ideas and communication.

Instead, we get a 'nanny state', where far too much is censored, deleted and so on, usually with little/no explanation. Its like the mods are the teachers ant the rest of us are the kids.
Other forums I go on are moderated in a much more laissez-faire way and I prefer that style to the one employed here.
I took an issue up, via PM (x2) to Geoff, nearly a week ago...

...still no response. So much for that idea. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Aaarrrggghhh
Really? But Dr.Holland's concluding point isn't very healthy: "I like this Internet regression. I find it a fascinating marriage of the most sophisticated human technology with our half-savage, half-animal psyches. I think it's something new and amazing and quite wonderful in the spectrum of human relations." Can you expand on your last point a bit?

moodi

When he talks about internet regression, he does touch on certain 'positives' (although it entirely depends on what view you take on the actual behaviour being exhibited as 'internet-regression'). e.g generosity - people giving up there time and energy, quite spontaneously, for the benefit of others with whom they have little or no connection - almost a kudos economy.

Granted this is not always due to pure altruism (solely(if such a thing even exists)) but it is a defining characteristic of successful internet communities and users.

The freudian comment is related to nothing deeper than the vocab used in the paper -
"The person you are talking to on the Internet is thought of as a machine, and the machine is thought of as a person. Then, at an anal level, if you will, who is living blurs into what is dead. At an oral level, one merges... "

"...In psychoanalytic terms, men's fantasies about computers are "phallic." In this context, "flaming" is a bit like giving other drivers the finger from inside a car."


I'm not using freudian in a pejorative sense here. just a general observation of where the author is coming from.

He concludes
The Internet regression is also temporary. Today's Internetting will change, maybe even by the time you read this. A huge influx of unskilled users is coming onto the Internet, people who lack the cheery openness that a hacker like Alex expresses. The technology too will change. Real Soon Now (as the computer magazines say), we will be able to replace today's "plain text" with digitized voices. Real Soon Now, we will be able to have pictures of speaker and hearer. Real Soon Now, computer technology will restore to the Internet the physical cues of face to face talk. Too bad, say I. The Internet Regression has been--still is--fun.

I think he's off on the wrong track there altogether. I think 'internet-regression' is as he says, a temporary phase that many new users go through, and old users revert to occasionally.

The disruption it causes seems to be able to be minimized with certain coping strategies, but I'm still looking for them.

It seems a coping strategy for you could be 'spotaneous (regressive?) acts of generosity' on the web?

Is the internet really 'the most sophisticated human technology'? Who's even to say we are a sophisticated race?

The dictionary and thesaurus says nothing about regression being positive and thats not what I meant originally.

Where are the sources you mention please:

'..interesting conclusions about strategies to reduce the destructive effects of 'internet-regression' without locking out the benefits.'

thanks

moodi

Originally posted by Aaarrrggghhh
It seems a coping strategy for you could be 'spotaneous (regressive?) acts of generosity' on the web?


No, coping strategies for dealing with flame fests, internet stalkers, other on and offline sociopaths. From the perspective of an admin, moderator, BOfH, etc.

Originally posted by Aaarrrggghhh

Is the internet really 'the most sophisticated human technology'? Who's even to say we are a sophisticated race?

Well, depends on what you mean by sophisticated really, quite a few definitions of that.


this one in particular

http://www.rider.edu/~suler/psycyber/badboys.html

but the whole site

http://www.rider.edu/~suler/psycyber/psycyber.html

is extremely interesting.

Originally posted by Aaarrrggghhh
The dictionary and thesaurus says nothing about regression being positive and thats not what I meant originally.

I'm talking about the regression referred to by the author of the article you quoted. If you value childhood perceptions and actions (spontaneity, unselfconciousness, naiveite, plastic reality etc) then regression can be positive.

Originally posted by foo_fighter
I took an issue up, via PM (x2) to Geoff, nearly a week ago...

...still no response. So much for that idea. :rolleyes:

But I thought everybody knew that PMing Geoff is pointless - You have to e-mail him! :rolleyes:

He has always answered me :thumbsup: sometimes takes a day or two, but he does.