Now, an obvious response to all of this will be something along the lines of:

"You need to get a first life before you get a Second Life!! Hur hur"

Yes. OK, very funny.

Anyway, this thread is for those who are interested in the future of the internet, those who are interested in the future of communication altogether.

My prediction is this:

Within most of our lifetimes the internet will look different from how it looks now.

Let's take this forum for example:

What are the advantages of using this forum over meeting each other in 'real life' (we can argue about whether the internet is 'real life' or not later!)?

I see it's advantages being:

People who know each other in real life can send messages to each other.
People who don't know each other can send messages to each other.
Messages can be either sent in private or in a public forum.
There are people who look after the interests of those who use the forum.

OK, I think you probably get the point but where do we go from here? The internet is still relatively young but technology development and the uptake of new technology is happening very fast, particularly as we have more disposable income than ever.

So how will the internet change?

The way I see it is that the natural progression for the internet is that the internet interface we are used to will be replaced with what is essentially a very large online virtual world.

Instead of going to Curry's web site you will visit the Curry's online shop which will exist within a virtual world with other virtual shoppers and shop assistants. You will be able to search for the shop, teleport into the shop and wander around it. Unlike current online shopping you will be able to talk to other shoppers in real time.

The possibilities are endless and they are much richer in content than how we normally view the internet.

I guess it's fairly obvious where I'm going with this, I mentioned something called "Second Life" in the subject title for this thread.

I think that Second Life is a glimpse of the future of the internet.

How many of you are familiar with Google Earth? In Google Earth you connect to the internet and you can 'fly' around the planet looking at various geographic features, landmarks etc, what you can't currently do though is communicate with other Google Earth users. One day, possibly very soon, you will! When I company like Google does that things will change rapidly, those of you who are currently thinking "Christ this guy sounds like a nutjob" are probably right but in future you will think back to this and think "well actually, it seems Phill was right".

Of course, I could be wrong about the future of the internet, but what we can say is that the future of the internet is most likely to be revolved around each of us not just being an IP or email address, we will have our own 'avatars' which can look just like us, even have our own skin as a 'texture'.

Right so, Second Life? It's an online virtual world, it has about 2 million accounts but there is currently only about 51,000 online at once, that number is rising.

Anyone, from anywhere on the planet where there is an internet connection, can go on Second Life. What is more, the software is free and the basic account is free, so you only need access to a computer with the software on it.

The Second Life 'grid' is a virtual world (unlike our own world it is flat though!) there are two mainlands and lots of private islands but as the company who runs it upgrades their techology, so the world is upgraded to.

In this virtual world you can choose what you look like, even down to the size of your nose or feet (there are of course some limitations)

You can design your own virtual clothes or buy clothes that someone else has made. Buying stuff does use real money though! Your currency is converted to US Dollars and that is converted to an in world payment token (currency) called Linden Dollars. You get a lot of Linden dollars to the pound though. There are lots of freebies to pick up.

Because of this, many people now make a living from Second Life:

You could for example, buy some land, buy a shop or build your own shop to put on the land. Make your own virtual clothes and then sell them in your virtual shop to virtual shoppers with real money.

You could simply go into property/land sales. Buy some land when it's at it's cheapest, then sell it own and make a real profit.

Another advantage of this is that there are several different ways of communicating, much like real life but more so.

There is private chat (IM).
There is voice chat where you can use a microphone to talk to others.
There is body language (gestures)
There is in world chat.
You can play sound clips.

It's still a developing environment but there are already clubs you can go to listen to real live music for example, or 'dance' to DJs.

If you are into role playing or game playing there's plenty of that kind of thing too.

There are plenty of articles on the internet about Second Life, but if you are really interested then the best thing to do is give it a go. It's a little weird at first when you are 'born' (this doesn't involve anything as weird as real child birth though!) but you will get used to it quickly.

If anyone wants to discuss this or have a bitch about anything I have said then please feel free to do so, if you want to give Second Life a try I will be quite happy to help you out, just remember, be careful, as ever, don't give away too much information about yourself to complete strangers!

I took a look at Second Life and whilst I think that conceptually it's a super idea, the practicalities seem to be less than perfect.

You seem to need a very beefy PC and graphics card to run it - compared to some of the other Virtual Environments SL seems to require a lot of 'Umph'.

I've been online in one form or another for about 20 years, and about 15 years ago there was a lot of interest in Virtual Realities. I think that we're now at a point where that interest could be re-ignited.

However....isn't it odd that we take a communications medium in which geography is non-existent and time can be ignored (PMs, email, threads) or respected (chat, IM, IRC, etc.) and then construct an environment which re-introduces the concept of place and time?

OK - I appreciate that you're localising the geography through your PC, but when in SL or other similar environments you still have to 'be there' to interact. The UI is basically aimed at gamers.

Perhaps what we need to be looking at are user interfaces that rather than simulate the existing world leverage the potential of the Internet to remove the limitations of place and time, and make it easy to do stuff irrespective of technology at hand. For that it's STILL hard to beat email, IM and the Web. (Web 1.0, not even Web 2.0)

Just a thought!

Now - give it a few years and we get immersive Second Life, then things might be different. I can imagine how such an environment would offer all sorts of opportunities for us all.

The idea that people want to go to a virtual shop and walk around looking at virtual shelves is a bad one. The internet makes shopping easier. To start to recreate a real shop and have you interact via an avatar means that I may as well just go to the highstreet. I want to create a query and get back a short list of items, I want to compare quickly the prices of the items from various different providers and then I want to quickly and with no fuss order the chosen item. At no point do I want to pretend that I'm in a shop.

The idea that people want to go to a virtual shop and walk around looking at virtual shelves is a bad one. The internet makes shopping easier. To start to recreate a real shop and have you interact via an avatar means that I may as well just go to the highstreet. I want to create a query and get back a short list of items, I want to compare quickly the prices of the items from various different providers and then I want to quickly and with no fuss order the chosen item. At no point do I want to pretend that I'm in a shop.

Good point - in the time it takes me to 'walk' to a place in SL I can have completed the whole transaction through 'standard' web technology.

To me the way forward with current technologies is to look towards ways of transcending the old 'time and place' limitations of the 'real' world, not replicate them.

I dread the idea of First running busses in SL.... :)

Seriously, though - I regard SL as an interesting distraction but I wouldn't (yet) want to do business there.

Fair points. Is it a given that if something is easier it is better though?

I prefer having a sense of place and time as well, and I think it still exists in the current internet, it's just not so obvious.

High Street sales dropped this year whilst online sales went up. In practice shopping in SL is no slower than normal online shopping, of course, at the moment you can only buy virtual good in SL though (I think?).

I don't like going into shops in real life, I feel that there are lots of things all competing for your money, it feels like I am not treated for the person that I am and I am not able to hide from it all either. But there are advantages to going into a shop.

So, on that basis I would like to be able to go into a virtual shop, wander around, look at what other people are buying, ask for help if I need it etc.

There is a search facility in Second Life which works very well, if you want to buy cushions you just go to the search facility, type in Cushions, browse the list of cushion sellers as you would in Google, once you have found one you like the look of this is where it differs from searching a normal web site. You click on "Teleport" and you are transferred to the shop where you can wander around looking at the different types of cushion and trying them out. Not really much different in practice to how you would do it now! No real difference in the amount of type it takes to buy a cushion but the experience is richer.

Yes, easier is better.

Quite a few online shops are now offering interactive assistance if you need it, in the form of IM.

I just don't see any advantage in the SL model, why would I fire up the SL client, and go and shop (assuming that real goods could be had) for cushions when I could just go to google shopping, type faux suede cushion and set a price limit of £10 - £20, then quickly scan down a list of images and prices from various competing retailers.

The aggregation facility of google is more compelling than a virtual shop where I can only see the cushions that this particular retailer sells.

This is what google found
http://www.woolworths.co.uk/web/jsp/product/index.jsp?pid=50780736

Phill,

Don't get me wrong - I think Virtual Environments have a lot of uses in training, teaching, entertainment, etc.

I don't know whether you ever read Howard Rheingold's book on Virtual Communities - http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fr8bdUDisqAC&dq=%22howard+rheingold%22+virtual+worlds&pg=PP1&ots=uG3C_crZUg&sig=MP7K4gx0xlNrKJBhF5z1Rx6-mR0&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=%22Howard+Rheingold%22+virtual+worlds&btnG=Search&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail#PPR11,M1 - it's a bit old now, and I read it in the mid 1990s when I was researching the topic for an abortive book.

There was another really excellent book about 'Navigating Cyberspaces' from th same time. Unfortunately my study is currently in cardboard boxes whilst I get new bookscases in, so I can't find the details. But there was a lot in there about navigational models and paradigms.

My main concern with SL at the moment is that everything I can do in SL in commerce terms I can do more easily in standard Web space using Google, 'intellignt' agents, etc. Technologies that have less between me and my ultimate objective.

Yes, easier is better.

Quite a few online shops are now offering interactive assistance if you need it, in the form of IM.

I just don't see any advantage in the SL model, why would I fire up the SL client, and go and shop (assuming that real goods could be had) for cushions when I could just go to google shopping, type faux suede cushion and set a price limit of £10 - £20, then quickly scan down a list of images and prices from various competing retailers.

The aggregation facility of google is more compelling than a virtual shop where I can only see the cushions that this particular retailer sells.

Good point on aggregation, I can see in the future the SL search facility will do this too.

Regarding your other point:

When you want to search google you have to fire up a client.
When you want to search Second Life you have to fire up a client.
When you want to search google you have to type in search phrases.
When you want to search Second Life you have to type in search phrases.
When you want to visit an online shop in a google search you have to click a link.
When you want to visit a Second Life shop you have to click a link (teleport).
When you want to find a certain product in an online shop you would normally use a catagorised navigation menu which you can click on and it will take you to the appropriate page.
When you want to find a certain product in a Second Life shop you can use a catagorised navigation menu which you can click on and it will teleport you to the item.
When you want to pay for an item in an online shop you have to enter in all your details or log in to the site.
When you want to pay for an item in Second Life you simply click a button, the money you use has already been transferred to Linden Dollars and you are already logged in to the system so no need to have to log in or enter your details everytime you enter a shop.

You are less likely to get phished or scammed in Second Life than you are on the normal internet because there are more controls and regulation. This can sometimes be a bad thing but it's the way the internet is going anyway.

Phill,

Don't get me wrong - I think Virtual Environments have a lot of uses in training, teaching, entertainment, etc.

I don't know whether you ever read Howard Rheingold's book on Virtual Communities - http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fr8bdUDisqAC&dq=%22howard+rheingold%22+virtual+worlds&pg=PP1&ots=uG3C_crZUg&sig=MP7K4gx0xlNrKJBhF5z1Rx6-mR0&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=%22Howard+Rheingold%22+virtual+worlds&btnG=Search&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail#PPR11,M1 - it's a bit old now, and I read it in the mid 1990s when I was researching the topic for an abortive book.

There was another really excellent book about 'Navigating Cyberspaces' from th same time. Unfortunately my study is currently in cardboard boxes whilst I get new bookscases in, so I can't find the details. But there was a lot in there about navigational models and paradigms.

My main concern with SL at the moment is that everything I can do in SL in commerce terms I can do more easily in standard Web space using Google, 'intellignt' agents, etc. Technologies that have less between me and my ultimate objective.
It's OK I don't view this as some kind of battle of right or wrong.

The book sounds interesting. I am quite enjoying finding out for myself by taking part at the moment.

We shouldn't get bogged down in the commerce thing either, it's not even the most appealing bit about SL for me.

The really interesting stuff for me is in the interaction between those who use it.

The fact that there are many different people from different cultures and places who wouldn't normally meet each other.

Another aspect - Identity, I know someone who is disabled, she uses Second Life and on Second Life, unlike real life, she is equal (in that she is not confined by her disability).

The fact that anyone can look really 'good' in Second Life also makes things interesting.

Phill,

See what you mean about client software - the difference is that a browser connects me to virtually every web site in the world, is relatively thin, hardware indepndent (to some degree - the SL client is chunky and connects me to one environment.

As for scamming and such - SL have had a couple of srious breaches of security, and their grid has been hit a couple of times by malicious code that's basically rendrd the whole site unusable for brief periods of time.

You're also submitting your whole online life to Linden Labs. I'm sure they're nice folks but at the moment if I upset anyone except my ISP or Bank then I can continue with my life. If I started using SL as a 'total interface' to the Net, then apart from philosophical issues, a single ban from them and you're toast.

It's an application, not a paradigm of human-computer interface as far as I'm concerned. It's 'William Gibson' territory (pre-Matrix 'Matrix') and it's a 25 year old UI that's become feasible because the technology now allows it AND enough people have the access routes to it. It's not necessarily the best, just bcause it's new.

Phill,

See what you mean about client software - the difference is that a browser connects me to virtually every web site in the world, is relatively thin, hardware indepndent (to some degree - the SL client is chunky and connects me to one environment.

As for scamming and such - SL have had a couple of srious breaches of security, and their grid has been hit a couple of times by malicious code that's basically rendrd the whole site unusable for brief periods of time.

You're also submitting your whole online life to Linden Labs. I'm sure they're nice folks but at the moment if I upset anyone except my ISP or Bank then I can continue with my life. If I started using SL as a 'total interface' to the Net, then apart from philosophical issues, a single ban from them and you're toast.

It's an application, not a paradigm of human-computer interface as far as I'm concerned. It's 'William Gibson' territory (pre-Matrix 'Matrix') and it's a 25 year old UI that's become feasible because the technology now allows it AND enough people have the access routes to it. It's not necessarily the best, just bcause it's new.
Ah yes, sorry, I'm not offering Second Life as being the future itself, only something that may resemble the future.

It is scary the amount of information that the owners Linden Labs have about it's users but if you are a free user you can be completely anonymous! Well, they will have your IP address which could be linked to a specific internet account but that is about it.

At the moment, you can either browse Google without logging in or you can log in, the only real difference is that because you don't have to give payment details to Google they can't easily find out who you are.

Actually, interesting... Let's compare doing all your christmas shopping via Google to doing it all via something like Second Life:

You search google anonymously for online shops, everytime you visit an online shop the owner of the shop has no idea who you are (unless you log in using your real details) until you come to buy something, so each time you visit an online shop and buy something you submit real credit card or debit card details and your real name and address details.

Compare that to the virtual world scenario:

You only have to log in once, each time you buy from a shop you use your existing credits, you never have to give any real credit or debit card details, you never have to give your real name or address!

So, in that respect there would be less security risks involved with shopping in a virtual community than there are with normal online shopping.

For me, one of the most jaw dropping pieces of news was the arrest of a Dutch teenager for stealing virtual furniture. If I was the judge in that case, my ruling would be that anyone who knowingly buys fake goods for real money deserves to have them stolen. If there is a theft here, it's already been committed with the consent of the 'victim'.

For me, one of the most jaw dropping pieces of news was the arrest of a Dutch teenager for stealing virtual furniture. If I was the judge in that case, my ruling would be that anyone who knowingly buys fake goods for real money deserves to have them stolen. If there is a theft here, it's already been committed with the consent of the 'victim'.
'fake goods'?

What makes you say they were fake? How are they fake? They might not be real physical things but that doesn't mean they are fake!

So basically what you are saying is that if you for example were to spend many hours on creating a piece of art on your computer and in order to rightfully make some money for your troubles (as you would in real life) you sell copies of that piece of art on the internet but someone comes along and steals a copy from you, that's OK?

I think you'll find it is straight forward theft of someone's elses property. Whether you think that is right or wrong is a different matter.

To avoid misunderstanding, I was going to edit that to 'goods that don't exist' rather than 'fake goods' before you replied but it's much the same.

I don't care how long they spent designing it, it wasn't real. If you disagree with that, try sitting on a virtual chair. I can't help but think that if someone is daft enough to pay real money for something like that, they deserve what they get.

I'm not sure how I feel about the designer. Although part of me thinks that if someone is gullible enough to spend their money on that sort of thing then they deserve to be ripped off, another part of me thinks that the sellers are fraudsters and the buyers naive enough to warrant some sort of protection.

Nonetheless, the idea that moving a few pixels around counts as theft is ridiculous. If anyone was bothered about it that much, they should have put the person's avatar on trial in the silly game.

If I paid the owner of an imaginary chip shop £3.50 in real money for a thought about a plate of cod and chips then you pretended to eat them, would it be right to have you arrested for stealing food?

To avoid misunderstanding, I was going to edit that to 'goods that don't exist' rather than 'fake goods' before you replied but it's much the same.

I don't care how long they spent designing it, it wasn't real. If you disagree with that, try sitting on a virtual chair. I can't help but think that if someone is daft enough to pay real money for something like that, they deserve what they get.

I'm not sure how I feel about the designer. Although part of me thinks that if someone is gullible enough to spend their money on that sort of thing then they deserve to be ripped off, another part of me thinks that the sellers are fraudsters and the buyers naive enough to warrant some sort of protection.

Nonetheless, the idea that moving a few pixels around counts as theft is ridiculous. If anyone was bothered about it that much, they should have put the person's avatar on trial in the silly game.

If I paid the owner of an imaginary chip shop £3.50 in real money for a thought about a plate of cod and chips then you pretended to eat them, would it be right to have you arrested for stealing food?
The point is that the goods DO exist!

So I take it you think that nothing you have written on the internet actually exists then?

What about if you come up with a piece of writting on this forum and I claim it as my own then make loads of money out of it (unlikely I know but hey). I guess you wouldn't be bothered at all because it doesn't really exist.

The Second Life concept has huge potential.

What is happening with SL is but a small demo of what is to come. The biggest thing holding SL from becoming truly massive is SL itself. It's UI is awful and the avatar controls are very flimsy to say the least.

Right now, SL is a concept being pushed as ready for mainstream acceptance, when in fact it is nowhere near it.

There are countless tech articles about SL and that the rights consumers have with virtual goods is not known.

One problem is what laws and duristiction the goods are sold in, and what rights you have as a consumer. What if you buy something that isn't fit for purpose or doesn't work correctly. In the real world, you would be within your rights to take it back to the shop and claim a refund. In the virtual world, this isn't guarenteed, and a lot of vendors don't accept returns. In British consumer law, the stores are required to accept returns if the goods aren't fit for purpose or it was sold misleadingly.

So what do you do? Do you try to take action against the vendor? Or do you try to take action against the makers of SL, Linden Labs. What about a chargeback on your credit card? Would a court actually accept that virtual goods require the same rights as physical goods? Legally, this is a huge can of worms which has yet to be resolved in a court of law.

SL is nothing more than an experiment at this time. It needs to sort out issues, and once it has, a lot of virtual worlds in the style of SL will start springing up.

I wouldn't be suprised if SL2 would appear in the next couple of years once things are cleared up, because right now, SL is not at all user friendly. SL at the moment is just one huge experiment.

The bombardment of SL stories are nothing more than undue hype by journalists trying to make themselves out to be "with it" and "trendy". I see the potential for SL type worlds, but I feel that it won't be SL who get this truly in to the mainstream.

Good point on aggregation, I can see in the future the SL search facility will do this too.

Regarding your other point:

When you want to search google you have to fire up a client.
When you want to search Second Life you have to fire up a client.
When you want to search google you have to type in search phrases.
When you want to search Second Life you have to type in search phrases.
When you want to visit an online shop in a google search you have to click a link.
When you want to visit a Second Life shop you have to click a link (teleport).
When you want to find a certain product in an online shop you would normally use a catagorised navigation menu which you can click on and it will take you to the appropriate page.
When you want to find a certain product in a Second Life shop you can use a catagorised navigation menu which you can click on and it will teleport you to the item.
When you want to pay for an item in an online shop you have to enter in all your details or log in to the site.
When you want to pay for an item in Second Life you simply click a button, the money you use has already been transferred to Linden Dollars and you are already logged in to the system so no need to have to log in or enter your details everytime you enter a shop.

You are less likely to get phished or scammed in Second Life than you are on the normal internet because there are more controls and regulation. This can sometimes be a bad thing but it's the way the internet is going anyway.

The client for google though is much lighter, it's also running anyway since I spend a lot of time browsing.
I can use google checkout, so I only have to log in once, and the risk of being scammed when buying something is not significant.
If SL is just doing the same thing that I can already do and am already familiar with doing then it's going to fail as an online shopping interface. It needs to add something beyond what I already have, at the moment it doesn't.

Ah yes, sorry, I'm not offering Second Life as being the future itself, only something that may resemble the future.

It is scary the amount of information that the owners Linden Labs have about it's users but if you are a free user you can be completely anonymous! Well, they will have your IP address which could be linked to a specific internet account but that is about it.

At the moment, you can either browse Google without logging in or you can log in, the only real difference is that because you don't have to give payment details to Google they can't easily find out who you are.

Actually, interesting... Let's compare doing all your christmas shopping via Google to doing it all via something like Second Life:

You search google anonymously for online shops, everytime you visit an online shop the owner of the shop has no idea who you are (unless you log in using your real details) until you come to buy something, so each time you visit an online shop and buy something you submit real credit card or debit card details and your real name and address details.

Compare that to the virtual world scenario:

You only have to log in once, each time you buy from a shop you use your existing credits, you never have to give any real credit or debit card details, you never have to give your real name or address!

So, in that respect there would be less security risks involved with shopping in a virtual community than there are with normal online shopping.

You're going to find delivery very difficult if you don't give the retailer your name and address.
And whilst you don't give them a credit or debit card, you give them the SL equivalent where you have already had to provide some details in order to put linden dollars on it. You could just as easily argue that paypal makes a transaction more secure, in reality it's the opposite, credit cards particularly provide quite a few remedies for fraud and companies failing to deliver that I doubt you get if you pay using Linden dollars.

For me, one of the most jaw dropping pieces of news was the arrest of a Dutch teenager for stealing virtual furniture. If I was the judge in that case, my ruling would be that anyone who knowingly buys fake goods for real money deserves to have them stolen. If there is a theft here, it's already been committed with the consent of the 'victim'.

In that case I'd like to pop over and take the licenses to all your computer software. It's no more real than the license to a copy of a piece of virtual furniture (which is what was actually stolen, the license).
You buy software licenses, music licenses and DVD licenses, what makes it so difficult to understand a virtual furniture license?

All fair points regarding the technical issues with Second Life, hopefully these will be things that are being improved or at least on the radar to be improved. I'm not so bothered by the UI of SL, I find it easy to use (but it could be more versatile though.)

Good point about licenses as well, hadn't thought about that.

Yes the delivery issue has me stumped! I don't think there's a way around letting the vendor know your address, not unless there was one company doing all the distribution through SL, which would not logistically be practical. This does not really put SL at a disadvantage to usual online shops though does it?

Are the legal issues the same as other online shops? Maybe it would simply matter where the actual vendor is geographically located, so if the vendor is also a UK registered company then they would be bound by UK law?

Not at a disadvantage, just not at an advantage. Since people are now used to using a browser and an online shop there needs to be some compelling reason to change. There was a reason when it was online versus high street, convenience and price, but when SL just offers the same thing, but through a fatter client that will take longer to start... no one will bother to switch.

The locality issue is one without a solution in law at the moment. It's most easily solved by purchasing from uk companies, then it's pretty clear, I'm in the UK, they are in the UK, everyone knows what laws apply. If I buy from a US company with no UK presence though it's much less clear, they probably won't be aware of the UK laws regarding commerce and even if they are they probably won't think that they apply, and maybe they are right.
I'd definitely prefer to use CC over any sort of unregulated virtual money though, I know what my rights are under the consumer credit act, as paypal has proven several times though, people have very few rights to money deposited in that sort of unregulated account.

In that case I'd like to pop over and take the licenses to all your computer software. It's no more real than the license to a copy of a piece of virtual furniture (which is what was actually stolen, the license).
You buy software licenses, music licenses and DVD licenses, what makes it so difficult to understand a virtual furniture license?

That would cause me real inconvenience. I don't know what happens in the game but if the character dies of exhaustion or something because it can't sit down, surely it could be reactivated.

The point is that the goods DO exist!

So I take it you think that nothing you have written on the internet actually exists then?

What about if you come up with a piece of writting on this forum and I claim it as my own then make loads of money out of it (unlikely I know but hey). I guess you wouldn't be bothered at all because it doesn't really exist.

Good luck to you if you can. If I wanted to make money from writing, it wouldn't be wise of me to post it on message boards where it becomes public property.

Things that aren't solid (e.g. thoughts or love) can exist in a sort of abstract way but
someone who believes that a virtual object exists in a way that merits prosecution should it be moved, probably takes the Matrix too seriously and reads too much William Gibson. I'm all for people getting absorbed in that sort of thing but learning Klingon's one thing, subjecting someone to the force of the law for messing about with a computer game is another.

I don't see how playing around on a computer and drawing a sofa counts as work that should be highly paid and I don't agree that someone fooling around as a virtual burglar should be treated as a real one.

At the risk of repeating myself, if someone wants to pay good money to a a spiv for a fantasy armchair, fair enough but if they're daft enough to do that, I don't think the rest of us should take it remotely seriously if it goes 'missing'. The time and resources of the law certainly shouldn't be wasted on such things.

That would cause me real inconvenience. I don't know what happens in the game but if the character dies of exhaustion or something because it can't sit down, surely it could be reactivated.

I don't know if you're being obtuse, but the example clearly shows that a license to use intangible goods (intellectual property if you like) can exist, and that the license can therefore be stolen.
The fact that you think a virtual chair is a stupid thing to waste money on is neither here nor there, I might think that Microsoft windows is a stupid thing to waste money on, but I could still steal the license from you and you'd still call it theft.

Have to say, I doubt shopping in 'the flesh' will ever die out! More and more, it's become an actual hobby for people, as sad as it is!

Good luck to you if you can. If I wanted to make money from writing, it wouldn't be wise of me to post it on message boards where it becomes public property.

Things that aren't solid (e.g. thoughts or love) can exist in a sort of abstract way but
someone who believes that a virtual object exists in a way that merits prosecution should it be moved, probably takes the Matrix too seriously and reads too much William Gibson. I'm all for people getting absorbed in that sort of thing but learning Klingon's one thing, subjecting someone to the force of the law for messing about with a computer game is another.

I don't see how playing around on a computer and drawing a sofa counts as work that should be highly paid and I don't agree that someone fooling around as a virtual burglar should be treated as a real one.

At the risk of repeating myself, if someone wants to pay good money to a a spiv for a fantasy armchair, fair enough but if they're daft enough to do that, I don't think the rest of us should take it remotely seriously if it goes 'missing'. The time and resources of the law certainly shouldn't be wasted on such things.

Hmmm, having been a keen Sims player (read:addict) a few years back, I'd visit sites for extra content such as furnishings, skins and plants. Some would charge. That stuff actually takes people a lot of time and effort to create, and if they want some money for it, then it IS stealing to take it without giving them money.

Designing something on a computer is as much an Art or Craft as is painting a portrait in oils or spending time making someone a hand-crafted garden bench. You would not be happy if you did either of these, even as a hobby, and someone just took them, so why should it be different if someone steals something someone has taken time to create on a computer?

Good luck to you if you can. If I wanted to make money from writing, it wouldn't be wise of me to post it on message boards where it becomes public property.
That's not true, anything you write is copyright to you unless you have given up that right (which I don't think is part of the T&C's of this forum). Posting it in public in no way waives your copyrights.

Things that aren't solid (e.g. thoughts or love) can exist in a sort of abstract way but
someone who believes that a virtual object exists in a way that merits prosecution should it be moved, probably takes the Matrix too seriously and reads too much William Gibson. I'm all for people getting absorbed in that sort of thing but learning Klingon's one thing, subjecting someone to the force of the law for messing about with a computer game is another.
All I'm getting here is the impression that because you think buying a virtual chair is stupid you don't think that stealing it should be prosecuted.

I don't see how playing around on a computer and drawing a sofa counts as work that should be highly paid and I don't agree that someone fooling around as a virtual burglar should be treated as a real one.
Hacking the system and transferring ownership of licenses isn't fooling around as a virtual burglar, it's theft and computer hacking.

At the risk of repeating myself, if someone wants to pay good money to a a spiv for a fantasy armchair, fair enough but if they're daft enough to do that, I don't think the rest of us should take it remotely seriously if it goes 'missing'. The time and resources of the law certainly shouldn't be wasted on such things.
Like I've said, the fact that you think it's a waste of money doesn't alter anything.
You might have a hobby that I think is stupid, but I wouldn't try and use that opinion to justify letting someone steal items relating to that hobby.

I don't know if you're being obtuse, but the example clearly shows that a license to use intangible goods (intellectual property if you like) can exist, and that the license can therefore be stolen.
The fact that you think a virtual chair is a stupid thing to waste money on is neither here nor there, I might think that Microsoft windows is a stupid thing to waste money on, but I could still steal the license from you and you'd still call it theft.

That just sounds like legal flim flam. Whatever the law says, the furniture doesn't exist, it's a picture in a game. There are enough problems in society without wasting police time on that sort of nonsense.

The idea that people want to go to a virtual shop and walk around looking at virtual shelves is a bad one.

It does seem like a lot of messing about, the reason I shop online is because you don't have to fanny about with all the looking for the item and dealing with arsey shop assistants, you search for the item, select the size, pay, bish-bash-bosh job done.

If you want to browse around a shop go to a real one, it's more interactive.

That just sounds like legal flim flam. Whatever the law says, the furniture doesn't exist, it's a picture in a game. There are enough problems in society without wasting police time on that sort of nonsense.
Your statement above contradicts itself, you say it doesn't exist, then you say it's a picture in a game.

1. If it's doesn't exist, it doesn't exist. A picture in a game exists, therefore it exists. Using your logic no of this exists, this forum doesn't exist, you don't exist, I don't exist, this post doesn't exist, this thread doesn't exist. Erm... I think you get the picture.. or do you? Can you now go away and either prove that you exist or disprove that you exist?

2. It's not just a picture. It's a piece of work and it is someone's property. It probably contained a coded script, which is a piece of work in itself. I know more than one person (who doesn't really exist) on Second Life who makes a living from writing code which doesn't exist for objects like furniture which doesn't exist or to make guns which don't exist fire bullets which don't exist to kill other residents which don't exist.

3. Second Life is not a game, there is no plot to it, there is no goal, there are no points, it's a virtual community with real people (that don't exist) in a similar way to this forum (which doesn't exist)!

Hang on? Why do I keep talking to you anyway? You don't even exist.

What I'm really having trouble with understanding is why someone who doesn't even exist would want to go and make negative comments which don't exist about furniture that doesn't exist? What aren't you trying to achieve not here?

It does seem like a lot of messing about, the reason I shop online is because you don't have to fanny about with all the looking for the item and dealing with arsey shop assistants, you search for the item, select the size, pay, bish-bash-bosh job done.

If you want to browse around a shop go to a real one, it's more interactive.
Fair point but are you telling us that when you shop online you just click your fingers or something and automatically get what you want? Somehow I doubt it, so why is shopping on a normal online shop really any less complicated than shopping in a virtual world shop?

That just sounds like legal flim flam. Whatever the law says, the furniture doesn't exist, it's a picture in a game. There are enough problems in society without wasting police time on that sort of nonsense.

So presumably you don't pay for software then, it's just zero's and one's on a cd, and you don't buy music, just sounds in a file and you wouldn't pay for artwork, just a drawing on a computer or oil on a canvas.
If something can be owed, which a license can, then it can be stolen, it doesn't matter whether it's ownership of intellectual property or of physical matter. The only odd thing in this case was that rather than a breach of copyright, they actually stole the license and deprived the true owner of the use of the item.

Fair point but are you telling us that when you shop online you just click your fingers or something and automatically get what you want? Somehow I doubt it, so why is shopping on a normal online shop really any less complicated than shopping in a virtual world shop?

Because there's no desire to waste time and effort recreating a virtual shop, which frees the designers to do whatever is more efficient instead.

Fair point but are you telling us that when you shop online you just click your fingers or something and automatically get what you want?

Well, yes, for example, I go to Play.com, I search for what I want, they have it, I pick it, I pay for it, they deliver it - simple.

so why is shopping on a normal online shop really any less complicated than shopping in a virtual world shop?

The whole "virtual shop" is just added fluff and nonesense, it serves no purpose except to slow you down, if play.com was text only I'd still use it, I don't need to see a picture of a DVD box before I buy it.

[QUOTE=Phill Jarman;2976675]Fair point but are you telling us that when you shop online you just click your fingers or something and automatically get what you want?]

Well, yes, for example, I go to Play.com, I search fro what I want, they have it, I pick it, I pay for it, they deliver it - simple.



The whole "virtual shop" is just added fluff and nonesense, it serves no purpose except to slow you down, if play.com was text only I'd still use it, I don't need to see a picture of a DVD box before I buy it.
I don't know what it is about some people on this forum but you just seem to want to have an argument about something you aren't even interested in! It's not as if I've come up to you in the street and tried to sell you something, I'm not even trying to sell something.

Shall we just accept that your opinion is that a virtual shop is added fluff and nonsense and leave it at that because I can't see this going anywhere?

Because there's no desire to waste time and effort recreating a virtual shop, which frees the designers to do whatever is more efficient instead.
How long does it take to build a virtual shop?
How long does it take to build a web site?
Who decides that it's a waste of time and who defines what a waste of time is?

[QUOTE=nick2;2976689]
I don't know what it is about some people on this forum but you just seem to want to have an argument about something you aren't even interested in! It's not as if I've come up to you in the street and tried to sell you something, I'm not even trying to sell something.

Shall we just accept that your opinion is that a virtual shop is added fluff and nonsense and leave it at that because I can't see this going anywhere?

Erm, ok, calm down tiger, you're the one getting all arsey, not me.

Do you design virtual shops for a living or something ?

[QUOTE=Phill Jarman;2976695]

Erm, ok, calm down tiger, you're the one getting all arsey, not me.

Do you design virtual shops for a living or something ?
I AM CALM!!!!

No. I make my money from virtual land sales.

Essentially I buy something that doesn't exist using money that does exist then I sell something that doesn't exist for even more money that does exist thus making a real profit out of stuff that doesn't exist. It doesn't matter though because it's legal and no-one gets hurt.

How long does it take to build a virtual shop?
How long does it take to build a web site?
Who decides that it's a waste of time and who defines what a waste of time is?

From my point of view as a consumer it's a waste of time, maybe as a SL player you think differently (well, you do, we know that).
I just can't see any value add for a virtual store compared to a traditional (okay, maybe web 2.0) online store, and without that compelling reason to use it the traditional store will continue to be by far the more popular.

Your statement above contradicts itself, you say it doesn't exist, then you say it's a picture in a game.

1. If it's doesn't exist, it doesn't exist. A picture in a game exists, therefore it exists. Using your logic no of this exists, this forum doesn't exist, you don't exist, I don't exist, this post doesn't exist, this thread doesn't exist. Erm... I think you get the picture.. or do you? Can you now go away and either prove that you exist or disprove that you exist?

2. It's not just a picture. It's a piece of work and it is someone's property. It probably contained a coded script, which is a piece of work in itself. I know more than one person (who doesn't really exist) on Second Life who makes a living from writing code which doesn't exist for objects like furniture which doesn't exist or to make guns which don't exist fire bullets which don't exist to kill other residents which don't exist.

3. Second Life is not a game, there is no plot to it, there is no goal, there are no points, it's a virtual community with real people (that don't exist) in a similar way to this forum (which doesn't exist)!

Hang on? Why do I keep talking to you anyway? You don't even exist.

What I'm really having trouble with understanding is why someone who doesn't even exist would want to go and make negative comments which don't exist about furniture that doesn't exist? What aren't you trying to achieve not here?

Heheh! Of course, as my head-in-a-vat experiment, you were programmed to say that.

All this metaphysical stuff is good for entertaining, stoned-teenager conversation but things have gone a bit far when people are prosecuted on the basis of Terence Makenna style, psylocibin-frazzled gubbins.

Licenses for fictitious armchairs? Good grief, I hope the cyber-dogcatcher doesn't come for my Tamagotchi, I left my license in Tommy Vercetti's hovercraft.

People were prosecuted for computer hacking and the theft of software licenses, what's so difficult about that to understand?

Did anyone see the prog about Second Life? I read a preview of it yesterday in an old paper but it'd already aired.

Was just wondering what the tiger striped guy with the lip piercings was like in real life, when she finally got to meet him. As her avatar looked like Xena, and she didn't, bet he was a short, mild mannered accountant from Idaho or something :)

Did anyone see the prog about Second Life? I read a preview of it yesterday in an old paper but it'd already aired.

Was just wondering what the tiger striped guy with the lip piercings was like in real life, when she finally got to meet him. As her avatar looked like Xena, and she didn't, bet he was a short, mild mannered accountant from Idaho or something :)

Yes, some clown started a separate thread about it in general discussions (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=302073), so we've all been discussing it there!

Thanks Mester! I shall hasten to peruse it ...

He didn't quite look like his avatar, but he was different! Hadn't hit every branch on the way down that's for sure.

I'm really annoyed with my neighbour's video, as when the husband was talking about Forrest Gump when she'd got back to American (compelte with blonde hair again) the bloody thing went off!!!!!! My friend is trying to download it so I can see the end. Unless someone wants to let me know what happened. I think there was probably only about 5/10 mins missing.

People were prosecuted for computer hacking and the theft of software licenses, what's so difficult about that to understand?

Ah, computer hacking puts a different slant on it. It's the equivalent of climbing through a person's window, rifling through their laundry basket and reading their post. It's an intrusion and should be punished in some way. I'm not sure about the importance of licenses though, I only use a computer at work. Would the computer stop working if software licenses were removed?

The idea of a having to own a license for a picture of a chair absolutely boggles my mind but I'll drop the subject rather than labour the point further.

He didn't quite look like his avatar, but he was different! Hadn't hit every branch on the way down that's for sure.


So he was a bit of a disappointment, then? :hihi: