First of all I apologise that this thread has probably been dealt with in part elsewhere but my searching hasn't yielded a single source.

I am interested in the families who have had the biggest influence on Sheffield. So many of the city's major buildings and landmarks, streets, etc. seem to bear the names of these families and as I understand they were significantly responsible for developing large residential areas of the city and giving it much of its current layout.

There are a couple of names that come to mind, the Jessops, Mappins, etc. but what other 'dynasties' have shaped Sheffield? Where did their power/money/influence come from? What did they do for the city (good and bad) and what became of them?

the Firths? (Sheffield steel magnates)

It's a big subject, and many of Sheffield's prominent and influential people have been individuals, rather than members of 'dynasties' as such, but the Dixon family (of the silverware firm of James Dixon & Sons) springs to mind. They lived at Hillsborough Hall (now the public library in Hillsborough Park), and the present-day park was originally the grounds of their house, as was much of the adjoining land. This was sold off for development, and some of the roads that were built on former Dixon land bear the names of family members, such as Dorothy Road, Lennox Road, Wynyard Road and Willis Road, as well as Dixon Road itself. The family firm was very prosperous and provided employment for a large number of local people. It is still in existence, manufacturing quality silverware, but I don't think any of the family are now involved.

That's great, thank you, I realised as I was typing this is potentially a very big topic taking in various different strands of history over a huge period of time. I suppose working at the University it is families like the Firths and the Mappins and Jessops who come most instantly to mind, but having lived in various parts if West Sheffield the families who effectively developed or commenced development of that part of the city are also very interesting.

Graves
as in Graves Art Gallery and Graves Trust Houses, Graves Park
hazel

Huntsman... owner of some of the first steelworks and charcoal production sites out in the East end.

Do the ancestors of these people still have local connexions? The Graves, Jessops, etc. still have monuments to their philanthropy all over the place, are they maybe involved with these? Any SF member with connexions?

What is required is for a list of names of people to be gathered. Then a small group made up of volunteers formed to raise funding to support anyone who would like to do a thesis on one of those people who have been listed. These would be published and obtained free from the Sheffield library or on the Forum.
Probably some thesis have already been written.
If Anyone is interested in getting this idea off?

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That's fascinating, hence Kenwood Road, etc. Swallow Hotel? Now the Marriott? I agree Albert, certainly a list would be a good start, seems there maybe many influential Sheffielders, I think your proposal is very interesting but we'd perhaps need some criteria for a list otherwise I feel it may end up being rather long.

I'm with you on this Albert, and I'm sure we can find funding for such a worthy cause.

Re Huntsman try here, this guy was the founding father of everything;

http://www.hrionline.ac.uk/huntsman/index.html

Perhaps the most famous of the residential developments was the area now known as Nether Edge. Most of it was the work of one man—George Wostenholm—the owner of a large cutlery manufacting operation. Piece by piece he bought up most of the land from Sharrow lane to Bryncliffe Edge and down to Abbeydale road. He built himself a large house in parkland called Kenwood (now the Swallow Hotel) and surrounded it with housing for the emerging middle classes of burgeoning industrial Sheffield.


I found this photo of the old Wostenholm IXL factory on the English Heritage site.

http://viewfinder.english-heritage.org.uk/search/reference.asp?index=25&main_query=sheffield&theme=&period=&county=SOUTH%20YORKSHIRE&district=SHEFFIELD&place_name=&imageUID=15744

Imagine the value of that if it was still standing in its prime location overlooking Devonshire Green and renovated as flats. It was very shortsighted to demolish it.

I have always wondered about the many references to the duke of norfolk there are in sheffield. Arundal,surrey,howard,mowbray,maltraves,fitzallen, just a few. Why was he such a influence in sheffield?

I have always wondered about the many references to the duke of norfolk there are in sheffield. Arundal,surrey,howard,mowbray,maltraves,fitzallen, just a few. Why was he such a influence in sheffield?

Because he owned all the land and is still the owner of quite a lot.
( Though I bought a bit once when I bought the leasehold of my home )!!

What we should do is make list all the people concerned in the creation of or from Sheffield.
P.M. your list to me and I'll get the young lady, who ghosts my letters and articles into readable English, to draw up a alphabetic listing.

In the New Year we can take it from their.

If anyone Fancy's a natter about this, whilst walking the Sheffield Canal Tow Path to Rotherham on 31 December, ( Details from Scoobz, in the Forum Walking Group section) I'd be please to meet you.

I found this photo of the old Wostenholm IXL factory on the English Heritage site.

http://viewfinder.english-heritage.org.uk/search/reference.asp?index=25&main_query=sheffield&theme=&period=&county=SOUTH%20YORKSHIRE&district=SHEFFIELD&place_name=&imageUID=15744

Imagine the value of that if it was still standing in its prime location overlooking Devonshire Green and renovated as flats. It was very shortsighted to demolish it.

The photograph makes me feel old. I remember it just how it is!!
I can remember people lived in houses in that area in building that were very similar also.
Have we got on the forum a former ex-resident ?

The photograph makes me feel old. I remember it just how it is!!
I can remember people lived in houses in that area in building that were very similar also.
Have we got on the forum a former ex-resident ?

Here's a picture I took of the same building in 1977 just before demolition.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a283/Alastairw/WostenholmeIXLWashingtonWorks1977.jpg

I had just arrived in Sheffield and used to walk past it every day on my way up to the university. I really liked the building and was dismayed when it was decided to demolish it and replace it with..... well nothing special.

There's some more info in this scan -

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a283/Alastairw/Wostenholme.jpg

I believe that the Wostenholmes bought the family cutlery business, the Burnands, who were famous in America too for their knives etc.

My Mom was talking to a decendent of the Wostenholmes who is a home Physio and got Mum chattering away about stuff. Strange how people are connected so easily.

Here's a picture I took of the same building in 1977 just before demolition.

http://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a283/Alastairw/?action=view&current=WostenholmeIXLWashingtonWorks1977.jpg

I had just arrived in Sheffield and used to walk past it every day on my way up to the university. I really liked the building and was dismayed when it was decided to demolish it and replace it with..... well nothing special.

There's some more info in this scan -

http://s13.photobucket.com/albums/a283/Alastairw/?action=view&current=Wostenholme.jpg

A little bt off the theme but the ' Photobucket ' photograh shows the tall chimney with thick black smoke puthering out. Almost all of the works in Sheffield had one of these before the clean air act became law.

The prevailing wind is North/West to South/West to east.

That is one of the reasons why most off the good residential homes, the former Employers homes, are at one side of the city. The working class joined to smoke and smog on the other side of the City.

My mother worked for Mrs. Wostenholm for about 30 years but I didn't know their connection with Nether Edge although that's where we lived. It was the same old story really we took everything for granted , never questioned anything. James Neil was a famous industrialist, his principle product was metal cutting tools, hacksaws, and their house was in Fulwood. I painted it for him and he caught me looking at some old blunderbuss in his garage and told me to take them, he had no use for them, no idea what happened to them because I was called up for N.S. so I wrapped them in oil cloth and hid them in the cellar and then forgot about them.

A lot of the highways in Sheffield are named after the cities well known people of years gone bye. I believe that over a short time period, probably because of political correctness, the city as lost a lot because this was not continued. This may also be a indicator that those who now have a controlling hand of the city, do not originate from it.

The main entry point to the city is named, ' The Parkway '. Why? Who thought of that name? Could it not have been named after someone who helped to create and maintain this city by ensuring that it had a Green Belt to frame it and had a Peak District National Park to attach its self to?
I believe Sheffield is the only city that does attach itself to a National Park.

I wonder about Bramhall Lane. A family in Plainville CT with that name are friends of mine, and say the family came from Sheffield way back when..

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Perhaps the 'Parkway' is named after Sheffield Park - ie the park that once belonged to the lord of the manor, as is Park Square ?

This may be one reason for the choice of the word 'Parkway' in Sheffield, but (at risk of going a little further off-topic...) the origin of the word apparently goes back to 1920s America, when it meant a specific (and rather different) type of road. Although many wide, well-landscaped roads are now called parkways, Bill Bryson writes in his book Made in America "The name parkway was significant. These roads were designed for leisure driving for the middle classes." .... "They were lavishly landscaped and endowed with graceful curves and wooded medians (i.e. central reservations) to enhance their aesthetics. Billboards, gas stations and other roadside detritus were ruthlessly excluded. They weren't so much highways as sylvan glades where you could exercise your car."

I quite agree that major new roads could commemorate notable Sheffield people, and a Albert suggests, the Parkway could have been named after someone who helped to create and maintain Sheffields green areas.

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Not sure but isn't Sheffield the only English city to have a National Park within its boundary ? - I live in Sheffield but I also live in the Peak National Park.

Parts of the Peak National Park are in Greater Manchester, but I'm not quite sure if that's the same thing as Greater Manchester is a metropolitan county.

This may be one reason for the choice of the word 'Parkway' in Sheffield, but (at risk of going a little further off-topic...) the origin of the word apparently goes back to 1920s America, when it meant a specific (and rather different) type of road. Although many wide, well-landscaped roads are now called parkways, Bill Bryson writes in his book Made in America "The name parkway was significant. These roads were designed for leisure driving for the middle classes." .... "They were lavishly landscaped and endowed with graceful curves and wooded medians (i.e. central reservations) to enhance their aesthetics. Billboards, gas stations and other roadside detritus were ruthlessly excluded. They weren't so much highways as sylvan glades where you could exercise your car."

I quite agree that major new roads could commemorate notable Sheffield people, and a Albert suggests, the Parkway could have been named after someone who helped to create and maintain Sheffields green areas.Parkways are still quite numerous. They are free of commercial traffic such as heavy trucks, or buses I believe. Many of them built during the 30s suffer from one big problem, the entry ramps are very short,and often with a full stop before yielding. There are lots of accidents when cars try to get on with cars going fast and both lanes full.

Hillsbro, - I expect your right about this, it was just a guess on my part. A happy coinidence then that an ancient road, a continuation of Dixon lane in fact, now well buried under Park Square was in 1736 known as 'Park Gate'.

Just like our council to get something right by accident :D


Actually not Greybeard;

The Parkway was named Sheffield Parkway in lieu of the desired effect of some sort of high class link road between the city and the new motorway at Tinsley.

Originally the Sheffield Parkway ended at Manor Lane and not Park Square, this was be for the Nunnery site was cleared and Cowleyshaws (sic) Pond had been filled in.

I can't remember a house on the corner of Cherry St. and Bramall Lane and I went to the oldest football ground in the world for the first time in 1938. Arnold Laver had his woodyard on one corner and a brick wall on the other corner with turnstiles in it.

I assumed the name simply fitted in with the general theme of 1950's and particularly 1960's urban re-generation, where projects like were seemingly intended to give the city and other cities a sense of general and homogeneous urbanisation, i.e. to an extent what Hillsbro is saying. I'm only speculating.

Did the 'big' Sheffield families always live in the suburbs or did they ever retain houses in the city centre? Were they all industrialists or was there 'old money' in Sheffield, was it that that that developed much of Broomhill, Crookes, etc.?

It depends how far back you want to go - Earl Waltheof, Roger de Busli and William de Lovetot were instrumental in founding Sheffield. Vickers claims William de Lovetot as the real founder of Sheffield as it was when he built the first castle in around 1150 and later the first cornmill and then a hospital that the town of Sheffield began to grow. When the estates were left to the 7 year old daughter Maud de Lovetot, she was made a ward of King Henry II then when she was 16 she was married to Gerard de Furnival, whose family held the Lordship for 180 years, and are now remembered in Furnival Street, Furnival gate and Furnival House. During a rebellion in 1266 the town was destroyed, with both the wooden castle and the Parish church being burned to the ground. Thomas de Furnival rebuilt the castle in stone, and it existed for 378 years until being demolished by the Parlimentarians in 1648. The third Lord Furnival granted a charter to the people of Sheffield to hold a market on Tuesday of every week, and also created the "Burgery of Free Tenants" granting freehold to tennants in return for a yearly fee. This made the tenants a free independant body of self governing people. The tenants took over various public duties such as improving roads and mending bridges.
By way of female descent and marriage the Furnival estates passed into the hands of John Talbot, later created 1st Earl of Shrewsbury. The Talbot family was very much associated with the growth of Sheffield in later years.

I have taken the above from a book called "A popular History of Sheffield" by J Edward Vickers, which pretty well covers every person who has been influential in the making of Sheffield - fascinating stuff.

There is also a list of useful books here:-

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~engsheffield/webpages/books.htm#vickers

The Wikipedia article for Sheffield is quite interesting too:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sheffield

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I understand that ' Lady's Bridge ' is the oldest structure in Sheffield and it was previously called ' The Bridge of Our Lady ' because a church or something was close bye and near the ' then ' Castle. Is this fact or fiction?

Mrsmills:- Most of the wealthy families of Sheffield lived on the North/Western, Western or South Western side of the city because all the industrial smoke from their factory's chimneys was carried by the prevailing wind, to where the workers lived.

A good example of this is the last air vent of Totley Tunnel. It should have been sited in Longshaw or near Grindleford. Instead its sited at the highest point on Totley Moors allowing its smoke to take advantage of the prevailing wind and take it over the city.

No I don't think that's right Albert.

Ladies Bridge got its name from the fact that is where the ladies of the castle would have their walks, being considered the least effective direction of attack give that the area to the left of the bridge was swamp land.

Sorry to chip in without contributing much (it's a really interesting thread, btw!), but I'd have to agree with Albert - can't say I've heard about the 2nd origin, but have of Albert's. Wikipedia agrees too (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady%27s_Bridge) although there is no source attributed to that information. I believe several resources on the subject do cite that origin although I can't be specific in which ones.

Putting both the above posting together. At that peiod the Church would have been involved somewhere so the lady's from the Castle may well have been Nuns!!
Has anyone else something to add?

Its been called Ladies Bridge since it was built, that article refers to the church being built over three hundred years later.

Besides wikipedia is very unreliable.

Sorry, over 400 years later.

Putting both the two above postings #036 & #037 together. Probably the ladies from the Castle who used the Bridge could be taken as Nuns in disguise.
So that solves that unless any one else can add anything?

Let me wish everyone ' A Happy New Year ' and resolve to live a quite life with no arguments!!.

You have a good sense of humor Albert.

I'll try and dig up the early history, we did once upon a time have a 'Sheffield Historian' employed by the city libraries who I got this story from, but I guess hes been cut back just like everything else.

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Vickers says this:-

"Lady's Bridge is the survivor of one of Sheffield's oldest landmarks. There was a wooden bridge at this crossing of the Don in the time of Henry II (1155-89), but in 1485 the first stone bridge was built. This happened when the Vicar of Sheffield, John Plesaunce, and William Hill, a Master Mason, agreed to build a "Bridge of Stone" over the "Watyr of the Dune Neghe the Castelle of Sheffield". It was known as "The Bridge of Our Lady" because of the chapel which existed at the foot of the bridge on the Wicker side. This chapel in later years was converted into Almshouses for four poor widows and was maintained by the Lord of the Manor and the Town Trustees. The Lord allowed one pound a year to each inmate. The chapel was demolished in 1767."

That's the exact same wording, cut and paste or what.

[QUOTE=wolfstalin;2978584]You have a good sense of humor Albert.

I'll try and dig up the early history, we did once upon a time have a 'Sheffield Historian' employed by the city libraries who I got this story from, but I guess hes been cut back just like everything else.[/QUOTE

Things have moved on in Sheffield. We don't just have a man (historian) but a whole Local Studies Library devoted to guess what ? Yes the history of Sheffield! With well informed professional staff who will direct you to the many fantastic resources that are available for the like of mrsmills it would be good if she/he actually visited studied and delivered her own thesis rather than leeching off you daft lot
HAPPY NEW YEAR AND WHY DONT YOU THINK BEFORE YOU POST

Go stick your rad fem crapola where it belongs, luv, and while you're at it research me up a cup of tea.

[QUOTE=wolfstalin;2978584]You have a good sense of humor Albert.

I'll try and dig up the early history, we did once upon a time have a 'Sheffield Historian' employed by the city libraries who I got this story from, but I guess hes been cut back just like everything else.[/QUOTE

Things have moved on in Sheffield. We don't just have a man (historian) but a whole Local Studies Library devoted to guess what ? Yes the history of Sheffield! With well informed professional staff who will direct you to the many fantastic resources that are available for the like of mrsmills it would be good if she/he actually visited studied and delivered her own thesis rather than leeching off you daft lot
HAPPY NEW YEAR AND WHY DONT YOU THINK BEFORE YOU POST

A very Happy New Year to you and all who reads this.

However why are we, ' A daft lot '? Actually I've always found that by their actions a number of intellectuals have questionable behaviour which would fall into your suggested category.

'HAPPY NEW YEAR AND WHY DONT YOU THINK BEFORE YOU POST ', like me? Bert Smith.

I assumed the name simply fitted in with the general theme of 1950's and particularly 1960's urban re-generation, where projects like were seemingly intended to give the city and other cities a sense of general and homogeneous urbanisation, i.e. to an extent what Hillsbro is saying. I'm only speculating.

Did the 'big' Sheffield families always live in the suburbs or did they ever retain houses in the city centre? Were they all industrialists or was there 'old money' in Sheffield, was it that that that developed much of Broomhill, Crookes, etc.?

Can I recommend a book I have just this morning finished (it was a Christmas present)?

The title: 'A History of Sheffield'
The author: David Hey
The publisher: Carnegie Publishing
ISBN 10: 1-85936-110-2
ISBN 13: 978-1-85936-110-8

David Hey is Emeritus Professor of Local and Family History at the University of Sheffield.

Did I get the impression you worked at the University? If so, you could either contact Professor Hey directly, or get his book from the library!

Joe

Joe you're right, I shall have to investigate it once back into work, cheers.

Cheers Albert, and a prosperous and happy new you to one and all.

Not forgetting the monument, this year is going to be a good one, so need the tax right off anyway.

Does 'happy new you to one and all' mean we all get a new body? new mind? new other bits and bobs?
A happy one to you too, wolfstalin!
Joe

I wish, feeling it these days, at least I don't work in freezing temperatures any more, building for Celebs has its advantages, not least that I don't have any compunction about giving them a 'really good service' if you catch my drift.

Keep smiling, its a new year, there's always better around the corner, and who know I may even make enough to get that full body transplant I've always hankered on.

Cheers,

Dave F.

At the time of the ' Cholera Epidemic ' the Lord Mayor was called ' Butcher '.( or Some other name. )
I think that for services to those effected by the disease, before he also succumbed to it, He stood out by helping them.
For this, I believe that on the Cholera Monument his name is mentioned.

At the time of the ' Cholera Epidemic ' the Lord Mayor was called ' Butcher '.( or Some other name. )
I think that for services to those effected by the disease, before he also succumbed to it, He stood out by helping them.
For this, I believe that on the Cholera Monument his name is mentioned.

There's an extra headstone-type memorial next to the main one in honour of him

It was actually John Blake, the Master Cutler, who died in the cholera epidemic and who is buried nearby under a conventional gravestone. See these sites, for example:

http://www.ukattraction.com/yorkshire/cholera-monument.htm

http://public-art.shu.ac.uk/sheffield/unk126.html

There's an extra headstone-type memorial next to the main one in honour of him
In the "Cholera Grounds" at Park Hill, there is a huge monument to the hundreds who died, including a memorial to the then Master-Cutler, who also succumbed.

I have always wondered about the many references to the duke of norfolk there are in sheffield. Arundal,surrey,howard,mowbray,maltraves,fitzallen, just a few. Why was he such a influence in sheffield?

he owned all the coal mineing rights which he leased off in 1805 ,one really big name in the coal industry when deep shaft mineing started is william jeffcock, i know a william jeffcock in sheffield know he comes from the park area where the one of the 1800s came from ,i wonder if they are related?.

Indeed, even when coal was nationalised the Duke got one half penny for every tonn extracted from both the Nunnery and Orgreave mines, that's every tonn of everything extracted not just coal, smart deal with an 18 inch seam, and that's why the coal board wouldn't cut a face higher than just enough for a man to crawl through.

The Duke also sold the land where the Manor Estate was built.

The one thing that I don't believe that he had his hand in Sheffield is that:-
He was not a foundation member of the Communist Party!!

He also sold the rights to hold markets and fairs to the council for £236,000 in 1899.
A lot of money in those days!!

He also sold the rights to hold markets and fairs to the council for £236,000 in 1899.
A lot of money in those days!!

It was indeed a lot of money, but according to the Sheffield markets website the old duke became richer by more than twice this amount:

"In 1899 the then Sheffield Corporation bought the markets and rights appertaining thereto from the then Duke of Norfolk for the sum of £526,000".

See:http://www.sheffieldmarkets.co.uk/sheffield-market-rights.php

It was indeed a lot of money, but according to the Sheffield markets website the old duke became richer by more than twice this amount:

"In 1899 the then Sheffield Corporation bought the markets and rights appertaining thereto from the then Duke of Norfolk for the sum of £526,000".

See:http://www.sheffieldmarkets.co.uk/sheffield-market-rights.phpOOPS, Even dearer than i thought. wonder where the council got that sought of money from?:confused:

Who gave him all these things to sell or rent to us, in the first place?

Who gave him all these things to sell or rent to us, in the first place?

The King - on 12th. november 1296.

It was indeed a lot of money, but according to the Sheffield markets website the old duke became richer by more than twice this amount:

"In 1899 the then Sheffield Corporation bought the markets and rights appertaining thereto from the then Duke of Norfolk for the sum of £526,000".

See:http://www.sheffieldmarkets.co.uk/sheffield-market-rights.php

It would have been the land and all the buildings on it plus all future rentals to be derived therefrom. Doubt the corporation/Council will have been out of pocket on the deal.

How much is the land alone worth now ?

The King - on 12th. november 1296.

Thank you. I've always thought my Dad (to the twelfth power) married into the wrong family!!

Actually, It was Acts like this that gives our country the stability that is lacking in most other countries.

A fact, whether we like it or not.

The divesting of land in this way is inherently a part of feudal land ownership, ultimately and theoretically even today all land is part of the crown estate (hence reversion to the crown in the case of intestacy of person with no heirs), it is not owned as such by anyone but the crown as a freeholder you merely granted the right to occupy the land for an indefinite period, as the feudal lords were. They were fiefdoms, which indeed brought the development of large towns and indeed stability and from their interest in the land they were permitted to then grant other lesser estates which today we would broadly identify as 'lease-holds' although these existed in various different forms (until 1925 when the creation of all but the 'modern' lease-hold estates was prohibited) - the system however, eventually became outmoded and made the alienation of land difficult and lacked surety of title for purchasers and allowed huge amounts of land to be tied up indefinitely.

The divesting of land in this way is inherently a part of feudal land ownership, ultimately and theoretically even today all land is part of the crown estate (hence reversion to the crown in the case of intestacy of person with no heirs), it is not owned as such by anyone but the crown as a freeholder you merely granted the right to occupy the land for an indefinite period, as the feudal lords were. They were fiefdoms, which indeed brought the development of large towns and indeed stability and from their interest in the land they were permitted to then grant other lesser estates which today we would broadly identify as 'lease-holds' although these existed in various different forms (until 1925 when the creation of all but the 'modern' lease-hold estates was prohibited) - the system however, eventually became outmoded and made the alienation of land difficult and lacked surety of title for purchasers and allowed huge amounts of land to be tied up indefinitely.


In my frequent, off the beaten track, Hiking Cycling Camping younger days, I could have done with the above posting, to show the Gamekeeper when he suggested, that we found elsewhere to enjoy a over night stay or have a discussion with his extra large size, thick fist or boot!!

The divesting of land in this way is inherently a part of feudal land ownership, ultimately and theoretically even today all land is part of the crown estate (hence reversion to the crown in the case of intestacy of person with no heirs), it is not owned as such by anyone but the crown as a freeholder you merely granted the right to occupy the land for an indefinite period, as the feudal lords were. They were fiefdoms, which indeed brought the development of large towns and indeed stability and from their interest in the land they were permitted to then grant other lesser estates which today we would broadly identify as 'lease-holds' although these existed in various different forms (until 1925 when the creation of all but the 'modern' lease-hold estates was prohibited) - the system however, eventually became outmoded and made the alienation of land difficult and lacked surety of title for purchasers and allowed huge amounts of land to be tied up indefinitely.

lovely post ,really enjoyed reading , thankyou.

Thank you. That is truly the only time land law has been of any use to me and of interest to anyone else! If you want to know more any decent land law text book or legal history textbook would run through it, IM me if you want some suggestions as to which.

As a little P.S. it's interesting to note that the estates which could no longer be created after the Law of Property Act 1925 such as fee-tails do still exist and still tie up large areas of land as they were particularly favoured by the landed classes who had an eye for posterity. These various titles only give the 'owner' the right to occupy the land for their lifetime, holding it on trust for future generations but lacking capacity to sell it or break it up. Then when their heir inherits they are incumbered in the same way, keeping land and the power, income and value that attaches to it in the family indefinitely and ensuring succession down the family line as failure to produce an heir would effectively lead to a loss of the estate (because the trust would fail for want of a beneficiary). I don't have the text to hand but I believe something like 5-8% of land in England (far more in Scotland) is tied up in this way, I would suspect that a great deal of the land historically owned by the Cavendish family, for example and almost certainly the main Chatworth Estate is tied up in this manner, but that is pure speculation.

Thank you. I've always thought my Dad (to the twelfth power) married into the wrong family!!


Well you never know....the one thing the medieval aristocracy were very free with was their wild oats. ;)

I believe a lot of the 19th. and early 20th. century terraced property in Sheffield remains in leasehold to the old landed families. Most of it probably to the Norfolk estate on 999 year lease.

When I lived in S5 I paid an annual ground rent to the heris of Mark Firth...£1.50 a year I think it was. I believe that leaseholders have the legal right to buy the freehold of their property, but with a term of 999 years many don't bother.

Very often they have the option, but it depends on the terms of the lease, at the end of the day it is just a specialised contract and so can contain to that effect if desired. I believe in Scotland, legislation has given rights to leaseholders to purchase the reversionary interest and thus become freeholders but I am not aware of that south of the border.

It's this sort of thing that makes this really interesting, as there are people out there, heirs of Firth, etc. who are still living off these peppercorn rents and of course the huge sums that would have been paid to allow development in the first place. Where are you all? It's interesting if you ever look at a really lnog lease and work out what the rent will be at the end of it, I remember doing it on a flat once and the ground rent was something like £100, at the end of 999 year lease it would increase to something like £900,000,000,000 p.a. - damn inflation!

In 1961 or 62, I bought the lease hold of my home on Archer Road, Sheffield.
At the time the price was to be agreed and fixed between Ten to Fifteen times the leasehold rent. If you could not agree with the freeholder you had the right to have it fixed at a tribunal.

Some years later I bought the lease hold at Springfield Ave under the same conditions. This came about because basically the freeholder would not allow me to build a garage unless I agreed to pay a re-negotiated leasehold.

If this law is still in existence or the Conservative Government altered it after 1980
I would like to know, especially the reason for alteration.

We're currently moving buildings, everything is on boxes, I'll look into when I get a moment.

Very often they have the option, but it depends on the terms of the lease, at the end of the day it is just a specialised contract and so can contain to that effect if desired. I believe in Scotland, legislation has given rights to leaseholders to purchase the reversionary interest and thus become freeholders but I am not aware of that south of the border.

It's this sort of thing that makes this really interesting, as there are people out there, heirs of Firth, etc. who are still living off these peppercorn rents and of course the huge sums that would have been paid to allow development in the first place. Where are you all? It's interesting if you ever look at a really lnog lease and work out what the rent will be at the end of it, I remember doing it on a flat once and the ground rent was something like £100, at the end of 999 year lease it would increase to something like £900,000,000,000 p.a. - damn inflation!

But the leasehold of £100 would be fixed. After 999 years what would £100 be worth?
It is the conditions enshrined in the land deed that is where the interest should be focused.

We're currently moving buildings, everything is on boxes, I'll look into when I get a moment.

Are you moving? If so where?

Oh sorry, work is moving, not me personally (most of my books are at work and thus currently all packed up) to different accommodation within the University, our current site is in a poor state of repair and we've hugely outgrown it, it is also out on a limb so to speak and not inkeeping with the trend to try to centralise the University estate. We're moving to nicer, currently vacant premises close to the Arts Tower. I am then moving to a different institution altogether in February.

I've noted the nice places down Encliffe Vale Crescent that are now being or have been built.