Okay, after slogging through pages and pages of technical stuff and literature on the web, I'm still not 100% sure what I need, just wondered if anyone happened to know -

I've just set up a system which runs my guitar through my laptop as a signal processor. I need a pair of speakers on the other end of this, and I'm just wondering whether I'd be needing monitors, PA speakers, or something else, and what the difference between these actually is?

I'll be recording on it, but also using the speakers to gig - therefore not sure if monitors would be suitable due to the near - field / mid - field optimum listening distance. On the other hand, PA speakers are a little on the large and expensive side, and I'm not sure if the flat response thing that monitors offer is something I want or not. The software I'll be using is called Native Instruments guitar rig, and its an amp modeller as well as effects.

Sorry to be so convoluted about this. Basically what I'm asking is:

1. Would I need to have a flat response for this sort of thing - would PA speakers colour the sound too much?

2. Would studio type monitors be suitable for use at live performances? (venue sizes such as boardwalk, leadmill)

3. Can anyone recommend anything to me which would fit the bill, or give me an idea of what sort of characteristics I should be looking at in speakers?

I'd be appreciative of any insights!

Thanks, Chris

Urgh!
Might as well just get small PA and mess with the EQ to try to get a decent-ish live sound. Your trying to do 2 jobs that one would normally have totally different kit for, so your sound will be compromised whatever you choose for one application. At least has some good headphones handy for recording monitoring.

Sorry if that sounds negative - I'm not a big fan of computer amp modelers so bare that in mind with any advice from me!

laptop + speakers will sound crap whatever speakers you get... by the time you get the volume up to what you need for a gig you'll hear how badly modelling software sounds when your not just using it for recording...

Personally for recording I run all my stuff through my amp and then get the line-out on my amp into my soundcard for recording... I don't do gigs, but if I did I'd invest in a small PA system with my band members, then your gonna amplify everything... then again, my mates already have a PA in their basement that we use to jam :D

Well... what I'll do is put it through the PA where we rehearse and see if it sounds good or not... guess I could maybe do something similar at gigs if it does.

If not, I might go back to more traditional methods, forget about speakers and just use it as a recording system (or do something clever involving a line6 amp modeller and using the laptop just for effects) depending how rich I feel - not very at the moment!

The guitar rig software does sound a lot lot better than any of the other software amp modelling stuff I've seen... but I can't say for sure whether it'll sound as good as an amp, particularly for death metal.

Cheers for the advice anyway. I'll see how it goes!

You will never ever get a decent guitar sound live, unless you have a proper guitar amp. Guitar speakers are different to hifi speakers in that the edges of the cones are fixed rigid to the frame of the speaker on the outside end.
Whereas a hifi or PA speaker has a soft foam interface between the edge of the cone and the frame body of the speaker.
This is because you need the natural distortion of the cone material to get a guitar sound.
Even if you have some fancy guitar modelling digital signal processor, the sound will sound weak and processed from a hifi or PA speaker.

Another aspect to think about is the difference between a HIFI style amplifier, and a guitar or PA amplifier. A hifi amp of the type you might use with your computer is designed to be distortion free and to work on low to medium volume levels with a good sound.

A guitar amplifier and a PA amplifier, is designed to be operated loud and to be robust enough to be carted around gigs. In practice if you try to use a hifi amplifier in a live situation, it will probably overheat, and start shutting down, after about 20-30 minutes on loud.
Whereas a PA or GUITAR amp is heavier and full of massive heatsinks and has an extremely heavy duty power supply, and can happily be run on full for hours and hours, without damage or problems.

I have worked with several musiscians who have equipment in bedrooms and think they have a great sound without actually having a proper instrument amplifier. But when they try to play with other musiscians in a live situation, or try to put a gig on, the volume levels and flexibility are missing and they are either not heard or have an extremely tinny sound.

If you use close field monitor speakers at a gig, nobody will hear a thing at all. And yes they are a completely neutral response, and that is far from what you need. In a gig like the boardwalk you need a guitar amp which projects many times louder than this. Ideally a 100w valvestate for the kind of music you mention.

Okay, I didn't realise there was significant difference between the speakers in guitar amps and those in a PA, thanks for the information!!

I've just got back from band practice, and yes it did sound a bit odd through the PA speakers - a lot of it due to the fact that I haven't completely got the hang of the software yet and the presets I'd made by listening through headphones were far too distorted and over-EQ'd

I also seemed to get some sort of static while playing, this could just be to due to too much gain but I'll have to have a good play with it.

There's one more thing I was wondering if anyone could help me with - based on the advice you've given me it looks like my best bet is to buy a guitar speaker cab, or see if anywhere sells standalone guitar design speakers.

Would I need a power amp of some sort to drive these, or would my laptop / sound card (edirol FA-101) be sufficient? (I'd rather not buy a guitar amp head if it can be avoided, as putting amp modelling software through a guitar amp gives a nasty dual amplifier effect which is hard to compensate for)

Just a thought - I used to use a Line 6 POD (original one) through an older Marshall 8080 solid state amp. If you messed with the EQ's etc you could get a half decent sound that way - but it will always sounds very different live from recording.

Its a tricky one - I gave up and bought a new and more flexible amp (Marshall Valvestate 2000) and will buy pedals for effects.

Originally posted by Crayfish
listening through headphones were far too distorted and over-EQ'd

I also seemed to get some sort of static while playing, this could just be to due to too much gain but I'll have to have a good play with it.
Hi again Crayfish,
Right the higher the volume you go for the less EQ you will need. In large amplification situations, EQ is used to take out frequencies no to add them. You should be especially careful with 1kHz and it's multiples, 1K is the most annoying frequency to the human ear, you should make sure you don't have too much of it.

The static will probably be your computer. If you have an unshielded FM source [the data and address busses in your computer] near an amplified pickup you will get a nasty noise amplified. If the pickups on your guitar are single coil type it will be much worse, if you have humbucking PAF type then it will be much less of a problem. And in any case you need to play some distance from your computer. Obviously if your computer was a desktop or tower in a nice thick metal box then the shielding would be more effective than the foiled paper inside your laptop.

Listen to MuddyCoffee, he knows his stuff :)

Originally posted by Crayfish
my best bet is to buy a guitar speaker cab, or see if anywhere sells standalone guitar design speakers.

Would I need a power amp of some sort to drive these, or would my laptop / sound card (edirol FA-101) be sufficient? (I'd rather not buy a guitar amp head if it can be avoided, as putting amp modelling software through a guitar amp gives a nasty dual amplifier effect which is hard to compensate for)
There is no way that a computer sound card amplifier would be enough to drive a guitar speaker. Typical computer speaker amplifier is 2 to 5W RMS. Your Guitar needs to be round about 50W rms. If you under power any kind of speaker you will result in a sound with no quality at all, as the voltage developed across the voice coil will be too low and the cone will not move very much. A high proportion of the amplifiers output will be wasted in trying to overcome the inertia of the cone rather than driving it forward and backward. It will sound very tinny because low frequencies require more power.

If you have been having a problem with matching a computer output to a guitar amplifier then it is possible that you have been taking the wrong approach. You can't plug a loudspeaker output into where you would plug a guitar in because the impedence will be wrong, and the power will be too high.
You need to try it on an amp which has a connection which bypasses the guitar input stage. Some amps have a preamp input stage for rack mounted effects,[you can find these in the guise of an effect loop return jack] this is what you need. Guitar pedals can be plugged into the guitar in jack because they are designed to match the impedence of a guitar amp and have a realistically matched power output.

And a quick word about guitar amps. Guitar amps are generally better the more expensive they are. I have been in 20+ bands with guitarists and I have never known a guitarist to keep the same amp for very long they are always changing their mind about the right sound.
However if you can afford it, a valve amp is the best sound you will ever hear. Not a hybrid like a valvestate, a proper fully valve amp. The only problem with fully valved amps is you have to put new valves in them from time to time, and that can be quite expensive. Also a valve amp is way louder than a transistor amp, if you get one thats 25W / 50W switchable, you will never need to put it onto 50W!

Another good reason to have an amp is that you will hear what you are playing on stage when you are live. If you are playing live, you always have to put up with a terrible sound on stage, but if you can't hear yourself at all you wil get lost in your song and make a right mess, we've all had that experience!.

Originally posted by neeeeeeeeeek
Listen to MuddyCoffee, he knows his stuff :)

So does neeeeeeeek.
Hey Neeeeeeek,
what's the typical output power of a laptop speaker system, do you have one handy to check?

We use two JBL Eon's at our place, with a 1000W amp. The guitar is fed into it via a passive direct injection box. WE also have a bass (or base??) guitar which is fed into an ACTIVE DI box...The sound is ok on our new mixer (Behringer MX3282A) but the old mixer (Soundcraft Spirit Folio) couloured the sound too much. What you want to be careful of however, is that the bass frequency doesnt kill your bass driver on the speaker, which has happened to us before.

Let me know if this helps?

Originally posted by Avalon
We use two JBL Eon's at our place, with a 1000W amp. The guitar is fed into it via a passive direct injection box. WE also have a bass (or base??) guitar which is fed into an ACTIVE DI box...The sound is ok on our new mixer (Behringer MX3282A) but the old mixer (Soundcraft Spirit Folio) couloured the sound too much. What you want to be careful of however, is that the bass frequency doesnt kill your bass driver on the speaker, which has happened to us before.

Let me know if this helps?
Avalon, it sounds like your amplifier is too powerful for your speakers, if you are blowing bass drivers. Had a look at the JBL website and most of the portable eon PA speakers are not designed for that kind of power. Most are half that power.

http://www.jblpro.com/eong2/index.htm

Hmmm....never thought of that...i hasten to add it was not me who came up with the design of the system! I will double check the wattage of our amp....perhaps i have mis-read?

Thanks muddycoffee, I hadn't thought of that - I'll try standing a bit further away next time, hope thats all it is - the static noise is about as loud as my guitar sound at the moment and really doesn't sound nice, its nothing to do with the gain either because even the acoustic simulator sounds are affected by it.

I do use humbuckers and I know what you're referring to with the single coil buzz, have to say it sounds more high frequence and staticy than that but I'll give it a go!

Otherwise I might just give it up as a bad job and get a big amp!

Thanks for all the help.

Originally posted by Avalon
Hmmm....never thought of that...i hasten to add it was not me who came up with the design of the system! I will double check the wattage of our amp....perhaps i have mis-read?
Avalon, Ignore anything that says peak power. You need to compare "power out Watts RMS" on the amplifier with input power on the speakers, in watts RMS.
If you write down the exact model of the speakers, and the amplifier, I can advise you.

The Amp is a Peavy PV2000, and the speakers are JBL EON 15G2's

1000w amp sounds crazy powerful to me, I've dont think I've ever seen an amp that powerful... in hi-fi stack type amp's I've seen 300's... but most guitar amp heads are 100w as far as I'm aware...

most bands, even big ones just use whatever big 100w head and then its all PA'd up with tons of speakers, enough to sound the size of the venue... or at least thats the impression I'm under?

Personally I have a 30w amp, its plenty enough power for me because I only practise in my room... its probably just enough for basement band playing too... don't think I'd ever attempt to use it for a gig though, even something really small like a pub... I just like to play for personal pleasure anyways... would never consider playing for a living

Originally posted by Avalon
The Amp is a Peavy PV2000, and the speakers are JBL EON 15G2's
Avalon,
I think you have made a mistake,
because as far as I can see, EON12G2 is a powered speaker system, they have built in amplifiers. You wouldn't use them with an external amplifier.

Originally posted by xafier
1000w amp sounds crazy powerful to me, I've dont think I've ever seen an amp that powerful... in hi-fi stack type amp's I've seen 300's... but most guitar amp heads are 100w as far as I'm aware...

Xafier,
I think you are getting confused with guitar amps and PA amps. A 1000W PA amp is not large at all. A decent venue like boardwalk may have something like 4K.
I used to cart around a system with a pair of Peavy Hisis 4 speakers which could handle 1500w at full range, and if you wanted to go to town then you could get the subs to go with them to have speaker handling power of 3K, and they are not even considered as Pro quality.
Although I would say that 100w should be plenty for a practice room

Just go into the PA room at the back of the Academy of sound, you will see PA amplifiers galore.

Originally posted by muddycoffee
Avalon,
I think you have made a mistake,
because as far as I can see, EON12G2 is a powered speaker system, they have built in amplifiers. You wouldn't use them with an external amplifier.

Im fairly sure thats what they are...but i will double check next time im down there....