i have a rottweiler he is 6-7 months old his parents are both pedigree but his father did not have any papers i am wondering if there are any tests i can have done at the vets so i can get the papers he has a perfect temperament and really loyal and well trained so i want to stud him when he becomes of age :help:

You cannot register a pup without papers from both parents.

what can i do???

Nothing you can do, pup is unregistered.

nothing i'm afraid ,in my experience anyway.you could perhaps enquire with the kennel club.

If dad has no papers they won't want to know. They might have done something if dad was registered but I can't see it without

as far as i know its down to the breeder to register any litter providing both parents are kc reg.
papers are a bit like a dog birth certificate, name the mother and the father and any previous lines.

I just got this from the KC site on google http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/415

Breed Register
To be eligible for entry onto the breed register, both the sire and dam must also be eligible for entry onto this register, and be of the same breed.

Pedigrees
When you collect your Kennel Club Registered puppy, the breeder may also supply a Kennel Club pedigree certificate. If not, you can order a range of pedigrees directly from the Kennel Club - it is a unique record detailing your dog's family tree. Further information on pedigrees.

So if you're certain that both parents are pedigree dogs and know the registered names of their parents, it looks from the above that you can get a pedigree direct from the KC?

I just got this from the KC site on google http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/415

Breed Register
To be eligible for entry onto the breed register, both the sire and dam must also be eligible for entry onto this register, and be of the same breed.

Pedigrees
When you collect your Kennel Club Registered puppy, the breeder may also supply a Kennel Club pedigree certificate. If not, you can order a range of pedigrees directly from the Kennel Club - it is a unique record detailing your dog's family tree. Further information on pedigrees.

So if you're certain that both parents are pedigree dogs and know the registered names of their parents, it looks from the above that you can get a pedigree direct from the KC?


yes you can ruby - but the father isn't registered.
that's the problem they've got. they would have to be the owner of the father of their dog to obtain a KC certificate, and then go through the process to obtain one for their dog.

yes you can ruby - but the father isn't registered. that's the problem they've got. they would have to be the owner of the father of their dog to obtain a KC certificate, and then go through the process to obtain one for their dog.
Yes I realise that, but if the breeder of the pup is claiming that it's a full pedigree, they must know the pedigree on the mother's side and the registered names of grandsire/dam on the father's side, wouldn't they? So if he could obtain the pedigree of his pup's grandsire/dam, and thus know the lineage for the sire, he could then get the pedigree for his dog. Hardly worth it I would have thought, he's obviously got a lovely pet and there are enough unwanted pups being bred by unregistered breeders as it is.

I seem to remember though that bitches are only allowed to have so many litters before the KC refuses to register anymore, in an effort to prevent bitches being worn out by breeding? So if there are no papers maybe that is a reason, other than the breeder not wanting the expense of registration?

Yes I realise that, but if the breeder of the pup is claiming that it's a full pedigree, they must know the pedigree on the mother's side and the registered names of grandsire/dam on the father's side, wouldn't they? So if he could obtain the pedigree of his pup's grandsire/dam, and thus know the lineage for the sire, he could then get the pedigree for his dog. Hardly worth it I would have thought, he's obviously got a lovely pet and there are enough unwanted pups being bred by unregistered breeders as it is.

I seem to remember though that bitches are only allowed to have so many litters before the KC refuses to register anymore, in an effort to prevent bitches being worn out by breeding? So if there are no papers maybe that is a reason, other than the breeder not wanting the expense of registration?

but if he was never registered with the kennel club in the first place they are not obliged to recognise him as being a full pedigree even if you know (or have been told) who his sire and dam were. There's nothing to prove it, unfortunately, only the word of hte breeder and you have to question why so many breeders are choosing not to register now- is it a cost cutting exercise or what? I see no sense in it- either you are breeding top quality dogs and have them recognised by the body that supports rsponsible breeding to temperament, type and conformation, or not.

There's nothing to prove it, unfortunately, only the word of hte breeder

I'm not arguing the toss here, but my interest is faintly piqued now. There's never really any proof but the word of the breeder on any dog, when you think about it. I bought a dog and was given a pedigree which I had to complete and send off with a fee to the KC. The parents could have been anyone, how would I ever know?

Does anyone who's in the dog world know about this rule about litters being limited? Or have I just made it up? :)

I'm not arguing the toss here, but my interest is faintly piqued now. There's never really any proof but the word of the breeder on any dog, when you think about it. I bought a dog and was given a pedigree which I had to complete and send off with a fee to the KC. The parents could have been anyone, how would I ever know?

Does anyone who's in the dog world know about this rule about litters being limited? Or have I just made it up? :)

no you're quite right. they can only have 1 litter per year IIRC.

no you're quite right. they can only have 1 litter per year IIRC.

I've mailed the KC to ask what their policy is on this. I've got a vague feeling that it's four in total :suspect:

I think the KC is all about money in the end. When you think that they have thousands of registrations per annum at however much per time, it's a lucrative business for them. They won't even come out against puppy farmers in any meaningful way iirc, because obviously they must be coining it in from them as well. "Commercial breeders" is the KC-speak for the practice, I gather.

your right they can only have 1 litter a year.
and i think can only be bred 4 times.

your right they can only have 1 litter a year.
and i think can only be bred 4 times.

come to think you are both probably correct , which will be why i rescued two 4 year old bitches. straight from a breeder. i'd never given it a second thought at the time.

i have a rottweiler he is 6-7 months old his parents are both pedigree but his father did not have any papers i am wondering if there are any tests i can have done at the vets so i can get the papers he has a perfect temperament and really loyal and well trained so i want to stud him when he becomes of age :help:

The fact that he is well trained and of a good temperament is fantastic and a credit to you I'm sure but why do you feel that you should breed with him just because of this? there are lots of other important factors to consider as well as those, and I hate always having to be the voice of reason in these things, but at 7 months he is still just a puppy... you don't really know how he will turn out yet, he would presumably have to pass the relevant health checks too before he could be used as a stud dog.
There are so many lovely rottis being abandoned, both them and staffies, there really is a massive problem, so much so that the dog trust have provided free neutering and spaying for the whole of this year to try and get the problem under control.
Even top class breeders are now having pups left on their hands, please don't add to the already massive problem :sad: can't you just enjoy your lovely dog as he is?

The fact that he is well trained and of a good temperament is fantastic and a credit to you I'm sure but why do you feel that you should breed with him just because of this? there are lots of other important factors to consider as well as those, and I hate always having to be the voice of reason in these things, but at 7 months he is still just a puppy... you don't really know how he will turn out yet, he would presumably have to pass the relevant health checks too before he could be used as a stud dog.
There are so many lovely rottis being abandoned, both them and staffies, there really is a massive problem, so much so that the dog trust have provided free neutering and spaying for the whole of this year to try and get the problem under control.
Even top class breeders are now having pups left on their hands, please don't add to the already massive problem :sad: can't you just enjoy your lovely dog as he is?

I agree with Moonbird on this one I'm afraid. I recently took the step of having my very very lovely and sweet GSD spayed, even though friends who show GSDs tell me how close to breed standard she is and how good her hips and topline are and I'm sure she would have made a fabulous mum.

There are just too many blameless and lovely GSDs ending up in rescue and I just couldn't have that on my conscience. If I couldn't let her have puppies only for families that were already on a waiting list and then offer a lifetime guarantee to look after them if things go wrong then as far as I'm concerned I wouldn't be looking after their best interests.

My house is just too small to have more than one GSD in it- and the average litter size for a GSD is 9, with anything up to 12 or so perfectly normal. Would you fancy trying to find 12 forever homes for the puppies? How about the damage that 12 growing puppies could do to the house? And what if a quarter of people find that they can't keep their dogs after some time? That would mean having 4 GSDs in a little terraced house.

I know that these issues wouldn't necessarily be an issue for you as the owner of the sire, but they merit consideration, whether you own a dog or a bitch before breeding.

Yes I realise that, but if the breeder of the pup is claiming that it's a full pedigree, they must know the pedigree on the mother's side and the registered names of grandsire/dam on the father's side, wouldn't they? So if he could obtain the pedigree of his pup's grandsire/dam, and thus know the lineage for the sire, he could then get the pedigree for his dog. Hardly worth it I would have thought, he's obviously got a lovely pet and there are enough unwanted pups being bred by unregistered breeders as it is.



What often happens is that a breeder sells a dog as a pet only / not for breeding. In this case it is a pedigreem but cannot be used for breeding, any offspring cannot be registered

I agree with Moonbird on this one I'm afraid. I recently took the step of having my very very lovely and sweet GSD spayed, even though friends who show GSDs tell me how close to breed standard she is and how good her hips and topline are and I'm sure she would have made a fabulous mum.

What you did, Medusa, was to take the step of being a caring, loving, responsible owner, in ensuring that Molly didn't go through the horror of "death by pyometra", or the trauma of the problems that might occur in labour. ( god forbid, loss of mum, or pups, or both)

What you have done is to ensure that your beautiful Molly-girl is going to have the happiest, longest and healthiest life, with you, in her forever home, potentially speaking, and for that, I applaud you.

You are so right in what you say. There are so many too many beautiful, perfect-breed-standard animals in kennels, needing their forever homes, who probably aren't going to get them.

You have been responsible in that you have ensured you are not going to be adding to the problem of the unwanted animals.

It is the only responsible thing to do, to have your dog or cat "done".

I asked a kc accredited breeder mate of mine he said 6 litters or 8 years old and kc refuse any more litters registered

I asked a kc accredited breeder mate of mine he said 6 litters or 8 years old and kc refuse any more litters registered

Ahhh! that sounds like what I'd heard but as you probably gathered I thought it was fewer litters. I wonder if some people just continue to use bitches as money makers and don't care about their health or wellbeing. Maybe that's why some, not all, dogs don't have papers?

I've heard of it happening with staffies, and people who don't know anything about breeding just putting any bitch to any random dog they know about and now the shelters are bursting at the seams with unwanted dogs.

It's all wrong and very upsetting for anyone that cares about dogs.

I have pedigree cats registered with the GCCF and a dog who is KC registered, however the KC and GCCF are just money grabbing orginations. Who care more about money than they do the animals that are registered with them. A pedigree or registration slip is absolutely no use to anyone in my opinion unless you are planning to breed from or show your dog or cat. Another one in Dog lovers register, I think it was Mayfield kennels (the puppy farm) that first invented it. Stay clear means sod all. What sort of orgination says it's alright for a dog to have 6 litters or be bred up until the age of 8 years old? One that is in it purely for greed!

no you're quite right. they can only have 1 litter per year IIRC.

That's interesting - I always thought it was 1 ilitter a 2 year period, that's suprised me and doesnt seem in a bitch's best interest at all.

That's interesting - I always thought it was 1 ilitter a 2 year period, that's suprised me and doesnt seem in a bitch's best interest at all.


my bitch is 10 now, we rehomed her @ 4 1/2, we only went on what the breeder told us at that time.
although she did have an unexpected litter whilst we had her @ 5,but that was a year after her last lot and when we registered the dog is wasn't questioned at all.