Taken to it's extreme............


should requirements for certain jobs be more strict for instance should teachers have to be parents themselves and should midwives have to have given birth?

I accept that this could be fraught with problems but how can somebody empathise with another when they have not been through that experience themselves?

A midwife may be technically excellent at her/his job but how can they possibly know what it feels like physically and emotionally when they have never lived the experience and as any mum knows the whole emotional thing is mind blowing.

Teachers may be excellent at their job but I have no problem spotting the childless ones. They just lack a certain touch that teachers who are also parents have.

your suggestion might make it rather difficult for the male midwives out there... lol

(just teasing here...) - would a judge need to have been convicted before he could judge a case?

Would a hairdresser have had to endure a bad haircut?

Would a taxi driver have had to have been over charged or taken on an unnecessarily long route to his destination (London taxi cabs, I am looking in your direction! £10 for a mile and a half journey across camden!)

Would a shop assistant have to have been ignored, as s/he waited in a queue to be served?

Would a doctor have had to have had the disease in question before s/he could treat it? (could get interesting in genito-urinary medicine... *coff*)

The list goes on... (chuckle)

PT

so - should police officers have previously committed crimes? Paramedics been involved in an accident? Brain Surgeons had brain surgery? - could be interesting ...

Originally posted by Hels
so - should police officers have previously committed crimes? Paramedics been involved in an accident? Brain Surgeons had brain surgery? - could be interesting ...

Yes that was my thoughts exactly.... has someone had to have a broken leg before they nurse/carer treat one etc etc

Originally posted by Mo
Taken to it's extreme............


should requirements for certain jobs be more strict.....

Teachers may be excellent at their job but I have no problem spotting the childless ones. They just lack a certain touch that teachers who are also parents have.

Arguably that's what's wrong with society today. We expect teachers to do a parent's job. Anything that's wrong with kids is often blamed on the teacher. And most parents aren't so hot with kids either. Perhaps the question should be - should people be forced to have qualifications in certain aspects of life before they're allowed to experience it (eg. parenting)?

(Sorry Mo, that's not aimed at you, it's just something I've often wondered)

Great big tats! . . . isn't that the only requirement? - obviously not men as that is just plain silly and sexist.

Hey as I said 'taken to it's extreme' means just that.

I know that such requirements would never be made but just thought how much better equipped a person would be if they could directly relate to the people who they are working with.

You would never poo poo the idea of a reformed drug addict being a drugs counsellor because that makes sense or a gay man heading an HIV charity, so whats the differnce?

Originally posted by Mo

You would never poo poo the idea of a reformed drug addict being a drugs counsellor because that makes sense or a gay man heading an HIV charity, so whats the differnce?

The difference is the compulsory element.

Anyway, when you apply for a job, the people doing the appointing do take into account whether they think you can cope with the job.

And to take the example of teachers, just being a parent does not mean you are any good at parenting.

Originally posted by Mo
You would never poo poo the idea of a reformed drug addict being a drugs counsellor because that makes sense
I certainly wouldn't poo poo the idea, but I wouldn't make it compulsory either,

Originally posted by Mo
or a gay man heading an HIV charity, so whats the differnce?
and what's that supposed to mean, are you intimating only gay men would know about or have HIV ?

Originally posted by foo_fighter
I certainly wouldn't poo poo the idea, but I wouldn't make it compulsory either,


and what's that supposed to mean, are you intimating only gay men would know about or have HIV ?

Absolutely not. Hey I'm not anti-gay but you seem to have taken it that way. I am well aware that HIV is as much within the heterosexual population as the homosexual one nowadays especially amongst drug users so get down will you.

It makes little sense. Having experience something might make someone better at doing a job that is related to it.
But then again it might not, and there might be someone else, who never having experienced it, is still better at the job than an average person who has experienced it.

It ends up being a very hit and miss affair and would leave an employer wide open to allegations of discrimination (and rightly so).

Originally posted by Mo
Teachers may be excellent at their job but I have no problem spotting the childless ones. They just lack a certain touch that teachers who are also parents have.

I find this quite offensive, actually.

I'm a teacher, and don't have kids, and am bloody good at it too. (So OFSTED told me). There are teachers I know who have kids, and are sh*te.

The way I see it is that I am there to teach kids, not just my subject, but - and this is the cheesy bit - how to be a decent person, by example.

Yes, there maybe similar elements in the role of a teacher and the role of a parent. But I am certainly not there to mother them, to pick up their stuff, or to love them.

Originally posted by Strix
Perhaps the question should be - should people be forced to have qualifications in certain aspects of life before they're allowed to experience it (eg. parenting)?

A fabulous point. You read too many articles in the news about neglect of kids. Like the couple from Wincobank (?) who lived in relative luxury, whilst their kids lived in squalor, with animals, in the room next door. Why?? Why bother having kids if that's how you're going to treat them? :rant:

I hate this whole "you haven't lived until you a have been a parent" thing that some people have.

Originally posted by Mo
Absolutely not. Hey I'm not anti-gay but you seem to have taken it that way. I am well aware that HIV is as much within the heterosexual population as the homosexual one nowadays especially amongst drug users so get down will you.

You're the one who brought it up :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Miss
I find this quite offensive, actually.

I'm a teacher, and don't have kids, and am bloody good at it too. (So OFSTED told me). There are teachers I know who have kids, and are sh*te.

The way I see it is that I am there to teach kids, not just my subject, but - and this is the cheesy bit - how to be a decent person, by example.

Yes, there maybe similar elements in the role of a teacher and the role of a parent. But I am certainly not there to mother them, to pick up their stuff, or to love them.

And you clearly haven't read what I said.

I acknowledge that a teaher may be excellent at their job but I stand by what I said.

I have known teachers who openly admit that they don't like children, one eventually was made a Director of Education for an LEA not a million miles from here. These people should never have been appointed IMO.

Originally posted by fnkysknky
You're the one who brought it up :rolleyes:

To be totally honest, I got my Terrence Higgins Trust mixed up with my Stonewall :blush:

There I've admitted it now :blush:

Originally posted by Mo

I have known teachers who openly admit that they don't like children, one eventually was made a Director of Education for an LEA not a million miles from here. These people should never have been appointed IMO.

Why? If you like kids you become a nursery nurse, or even a reception teacher.

I know I didn't become a teacher out of love of children

i'd say that she has read your post and has seen it for what it is. Nonsense.

I went back and read it again in case i'd missed something, but it actually just raised another question.
What makes you think that part of the job of teaching is to empathise with parents or parenting. They are not the same job, so why should one be a requirement for the other?

Originally posted by Mo
Taken to it's extreme............


should requirements for certain jobs be more strict for instance should teachers have to be parents themselves and should midwives have to have given birth?

I accept that this could be fraught with problems but how can somebody empathise with another when they have not been through that experience themselves?

A midwife may be technically excellent at her/his job but how can they possibly know what it feels like physically and emotionally when they have never lived the experience and as any mum knows the whole emotional thing is mind blowing.

Teachers may be excellent at their job but I have no problem spotting the childless ones. They just lack a certain touch that teachers who are also parents have.

Originally posted by Mo
And you clearly haven't read what I said.

I acknowledge that a teaher may be excellent at their job but I stand by what I said.

I have read what you wrote... You said "...They just lack a certain touch that teachers who are also parents have...."

Which I think is total nonsense.

And I stand by what I have said.

PS... Cheers Cyclone. You were a bit quicker than me there! :D

Originally posted by Miss
Why? If you like kids you become a nursery nurse, or even a reception teacher.

I know I didn't become a teacher out of love of children


Nobody even mentioned love. I don't see how you can possibly do a good job if you don't even like and enjoy being with the people who you spend all your working day with.

Originally posted by Mo
I have known teachers who openly admit that they don't like children, one eventually was made a Director of Education for an LEA not a million miles from here. These people should never have been appointed IMO.

What does that have to do with them being a parent or not?

Originally posted by Mo
Nobody even mentioned love. I don't see how you can possibly do a good job if you don't even like and enjoy being with the people who you spend all your working day with.

Now you're just being an insy bit pedantic...

I do my job out of love of my subject, and yes I like some of the kids I teach, but I also dislike some kids too. On the whole, I would say that kids, as a group, are pretty unlikeable.

Irregardless of that, I'm still wondering what this "certain touch" is that I lack. Go on. I'm dying for this revelation. I really am.

I agree that a dislike of children would seem to conflict with a career of being a teacher.
But I fail to see how ensuring that only parents taught would actually solve that problem.
Maybe the basic interviewing and selection criteria should address why people are entering any career, rather than making up half baked requirements that don't achieve the desired aim.

Originally posted by Cyclone

What makes you think that part of the job of teaching is to empathise with parents or parenting. They are not the same job, so why should one be a requirement for the other?

Never said that. Why do you persist in saying that I did.

I don't know if you are a parent but picture your 4 yr old going to school for the first time. A whole school day without his mum/dad, new place, new faces, new routines etc. Would you rather he was looked after by somebody who knew what that child was going through because they have had children also, who cared for the way he was feeling and could offer some comfort to make the transition easier OR would you rather he be with somebody who didn't like children very much?

I did say that this wouldn't and probably couldn't happen, maybe even shouldn't.

I would agree that there are people doing the job who don't like children - I have several friends who have gone into the profession for the 'golden handshake' and intend to head off travelling around the world once they get it. But that doesn't make them bad teachers.

Parenting has absolutely nothing to do with teaching. Teaching is about having a passion for a subject (not for being around children) and the desire to pass your knowledge onto others.

There are terrible and excellent teachers who are also parents, and terrible and excellent teachers who aren't. They're completely mutually exclusive events.

I used to teach adults and to be honest I didn't like a lot of them, didn't mean I was rubbish at it.

Originally posted by Mo
Absolutely not. Hey I'm not anti-gay but you seem to have taken it that way. I am well aware that HIV is as much within the heterosexual population as the homosexual one nowadays especially amongst drug users so get down will you.
Hey, I'm not saying you're overtly anti-gay, but if I were you I'd take a long carefull look inside, the statement you made had to come from somewhere, and it was predjudiced.

Would you rather he was looked after by somebody who knew what that child was going through because they have had children

I think most people remember their first day at school & can empathise with the various different reactions children have to starting school. Even reception class teachers.

Most are even able to to get glimpses of insight as to how to plan lessons that enable the child to learn without even realising it :) (& cope with the frequent reaction of 'but they aren't having lessons they are just playing' comments of those outside the profession without hitting them over the head with that term's/ week's/ day's planning)

Empathising with parents finding it hard to cope with their feelings as their child starts school would be a different matter if you don't have children yourself but that's not the job of a reception class teacher.

Originally posted by Mo
Never said that. Why do you persist in saying that I did.

I don't know if you are a parent but picture your 4 yr old going to school for the first time. A whole school day without his mum/dad, new place, new faces, new routines etc. Would you rather he was looked after by somebody who knew what that child was going through because they have had children also, who cared for the way he was feeling and could offer some comfort to make the transition easier OR would you rather he be with somebody who didn't like children very much?

I did say that this wouldn't and probably couldn't happen, maybe even shouldn't.

you did say it, it's in your first post.

but how can somebody empathise with another when they have not been through that experience themselves

see.

Originally posted by Miss
On the whole, I would say that kids, as a group, are pretty unlikeable.


And, with comments such as the one above, I feel you should not be allowed in a school as a visitor, let alone a teacher!

I just hope you're not teaching one of our children with such an attitude. Just shows how desperate the LEA are for teachers.


Originally posted by Miss
Irregardless of that, I'm still wondering what this "certain touch" is that I lack. Go on. I'm dying for this revelation. I really am.


Understanding of children, perhaps???

Originally posted by Mo
but how can somebody empathise with another when they have not been through that experience themselves?



Sian made a good point earlier - this quote would apply to your hypothesis about midwives - but parenting has nothing to do with teaching. All teachers will have been taught at school at some point in their lives, so of course they can empathise!

Originally posted by sccsux
I just hope you're not teaching one of our children with such an attitude. Just shows how desperate the LEA are for teachers.

Given that she says children are unlikeable, not that she dislikes them, that comment is inappropriate. Unlikeable suggests that they don't do anything to invite a person to like them, which is largely true. Another description would be 'obnoxious', but that wasn't the phrase she chose.

Can we derive from your attitude that you are the parent of an unruly darling that the rest of us are expected to dote upon too?

So what about someone who starts teaching when they're young and single, then has kids a few years down the line? Do they instantly and magically become a better teacher?

Even those of you who are parents must know other people's kids who you don't like. Does that make it inappropriate for you to "even visit a school"?

Originally posted by sccsux
And, with comments such as the one above, I feel you should not be allowed in a school as a visitor, let alone a teacher!

I just hope you're not teaching one of our children with such an attitude. Just shows how desperate the LEA are for teachers.





Understanding of children, perhaps???

Oh. Dear. Me.

I am truly, truly lost for words. Did you even bother reading the entire of my post? Or did you just jump on the part that fits your own narrow view? :rolleyes:

Now, incase I wasn't clear enough the first time...

I do my job out of love of my subject, and yes I like some of the kids I teach, but I also dislike some kids too. On the whole, I would say that kids, as a group, are pretty unlikeable.

And I think I understand kids just fine. Perhaps it is you that does not? Only a fool would believe that all kids are devinely wonderful all of the time. They, and this may come as a shock to you, are just littler versions of adults some are lovely, some are not. Even the nicest kid, when with his or her peers can become not so pleasant.

Originally posted by Funky Dave
Even those of you who are parents must know other people's kids who you don't like.

You don't dislike the child, you dislike/question the parents skills.;)



Originally posted by Strix
Can we derive from your attitude that you are the parent of an unruly darling that the rest of us are expected to dote upon too?

You're free to derive whatever you wish;)

However, for the record, we have 4 children.

1 doing very well @ a good, local junior/infants school.

1 doing exceedingly well in her 1st year of secondary school (involved in many school groups & committees since junior school - same good local school @ child 1 above - strangely enough, where all the teachers seem to actually like kids).

1 16 nearly 17 year old - working;) :P

1 18.5 year old, with young daughter, own house, nice, normal partner with good job & prospects.

All are pleasent, courteous (in speech & manner), well behaved (in public ;)), concencious, honest (for the most part), tidy(ish)....



Originally posted by Miss
Or did you just jump on the part that fits your own narrow view? :rolleyes:

Nope. I've read all the posts (as I do in every thread I read - primarily to ensure I'm not posting the same as somebody else beforehand)!



Originally posted by Miss
Now, incase I wasn't clear enough the first time...

I do my job out of love of my subject, and yes I like some of the kids I teach, but I also dislike some kids too. On the whole, I would say that kids, as a group, are pretty unlikeable.

Oh, you were clear enough first time, thankyou! Which is precisely why I replied with the comments I did. There was a teacher @ the secondary school I went to and he was very open about his dislike of kids..... Lost his job in the end because his dislike started to "seap through" into his professional life (teaching)!



Originally posted by Miss
They, and this may come as a shock to you, are just littler versions of adults some are lovely, some are not.

No. They were an empty book, just had a bit of bad type-setting.;)



Originally posted by Miss
Even the nicest kid, when with his or her peers can become not so pleasant.

This is (again) a parenting issue.

A case of "Monkey See - Monkey Do".






If you don't like kids....... Go teach adults.

Simple.

if you believe that teachers should or do 'like' every child they teach then I think you're not thinking about it all that clearly.

Originally posted by sccsux
You don't dislike the child, you dislike/question the parents skills.;)





You're free to derive whatever you wish;)

However, for the record, we have 4 children.

1 doing very well @ a good, local junior/infants school.

1 doing exceedingly well in her 1st year of secondary school (involved in many school groups & committees since junior school - same good local school @ child 1 above - strangely enough, where all the teachers seem to actually like kids).

1 16 nearly 17 year old - working;) :P

1 18.5 year old, with young daughter, own house, nice, normal partner with good job & prospects.

All are pleasent, courteous (in speech & manner), well behaved (in public ;)), concencious, honest (for the most part), tidy(ish)....





Nope. I've read all the posts (as I do in every thread I read - primarily to ensure I'm not posting the same as somebody else beforehand)!





Oh, you were clear enough first time, thankyou! Which is precisely why I replied with the comments I did. There was a teacher @ the secondary school I went to and he was very open about his dislike of kids..... Lost his job in the end because his dislike started to "seap through" into his professional life (teaching)!





No. They were an empty book, just had a bit of bad type-setting.;)





This is (again) a parenting issue.

A case of "Monkey See - Monkey Do".






If you don't like kids....... Go teach adults.

Simple.

Originally posted by Cyclone
if you believe that teachers should or do 'like' every child they teach then I think you're not thinking about it all that clearly.


"Clarity of Thought" is my motto of the day:D


Merely responding to someone who should know better than post personal feelings about their chosen profession.;)

Originally posted by Mo
I accept that this could be fraught with problems but how can somebody empathise with another when they have not been through that experience themselves?

The opposite extreme could be taken. Nobody who is a mother can become a midwife because they may try to empathise with the patient and end up making bad decisions or mistakes.

Of course, I'm not saying they would, but basically you could say that anyone who has been in the position is more biased than someone who is impartial and objective and is less likely to be able to review the entire case.

Food for thought, although it's hardly likely to come to more than that, thankfully :)

i think the only possible candidate for this post is a driving instructor