Did anyone read the star on 3/02/05. apparently the council wants to take Mainline off the streets if it doesn't improve its services and instead replace it with other companies. can it do this?
i thought that the first company was private, wasn't it?
If Mainline goes the only company that will be left will be Yorkshire Terrior, which operates a low frequency service and which does not go to all parts of Sheffield.
Do people really want this?

If this were to happen, then im pretty sure that more buses would be put on in place of the buses, dont forget theres also the stagecoach, john powells and is it tmb, i think theres wilfreeda behive as well...

If this is true, maybe this is the kick up the backside that first need, to make them think about customer service rather than think they can do what they like because they have the monopoly.

Susie
xx

Someone must be able to get Mainline to improve their service, it so bad in some (less profitable?) parts of the city thats it's a joke to call it a "service" at all.
I'm so glad I no longer rely on the busses.

Originally posted by Sadz
Did anyone read the star on 3/02/05. apparently the council wants to take Mainline off the streets if it doesn't improve its services and instead replace it with other companies. can it do this?
Do the council provide a licence to operate? They have to issue the taxis with licences. :confused:

Originally posted by Sadz
Did anyone read the star on 3/02/05. apparently the council wants to take Mainline off the streets if it doesn't improve its services and instead replace it with other companies. can it do this?
i thought that the first company was private, wasn't it?
If Mainline goes the only company that will be left will be Yorkshire Terrior, which operates a low frequency service and which does not go to all parts of Sheffield.
Do people really want this?

I stand to be corrected on this but I believe it is the Traffic Commissioner at Leeds who has the power to revoke,modify,reduce the number of vehicles allowed to operate in Sheffield and believe me these powers are and have been used in the past in other parts of the country.I think the problems in Sheffield are two fold Traffic congestion and staff retention the latter will only happen if the conditions of employment are vastly improved and staff are treated as individuals and not just some mere number on a computer.

with the most expensive prices in Sheffield you would expect to see First with the best service wouldnt you? but personally I think Yorkshire Terrier have a MUCH more reliable service...

where I live the 120 (YT) and 41 (First) are the main busses near me... the 120 runs every 20 mins, and it litrally does do that, every 20 mins a bus comes... the 41 is supposed to be every 6 or 7 mins during the day, so why do I generally wait 10 - 15 mins for a bus? and sometimes upto 25mins?

Thankfully I only pay £8 a week for my pass because I'm at Uni, but if I was paying £12 or £15 for a South Yorkshire weekly pass I'd be really cheesed off!

You're right about the Traffic Commissioners.

Also, the council cannot bankrupt soemone because they fail to deliver a service.

You can only be bankrupted if you fail to pay debts of a certain size and have an order placed against you.

Even if you're in breach of contract you have to be sued and such before you can get anywhere near bankruptcy proceedings.

Joe

The last people who should be instructing businesses to 'improve their services' are Sheffield City Council.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Originally posted by Ousetunes
The last people who should be instructing businesses to 'improve their services' are Sheffield City Council.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Gotta agree there! :thumbsup:

And given that First Mainline is a division of a multinational company I doubt that being removed from the streets of Sheffield (if that were even possible) would result in their bankruptcy.

Routes are set to tender by the council, companies bid for them, the bids including things such as frequency and types of bus as well as how much they will pay for them.

The Council has no direct influence on who wins the bid, the passenger executive does this (I think, unless i've got it backwards).

It seems highly unlikely though that it would be legal for them to turn down all first bids for routes just because they want too.

Sueing them for breach of contract if they fail to fulfill the bid afterwards might be a more sensible option.

Well something needs doing... First buses are very unreliable, they never on time, always come in 3`s... how many times do you see loads of No 52 buses behind each other .... surely it would be best to use these buses on other routes.... and I was amazed how much bus fares have gone up.. we obviously now paying for their strike they had....

.... thankfully I don`t catch a bus much ... and the tram is a godsend now.....

Originally posted by peter41
Well something needs doing... First buses are very unreliable, they never on time, always come in 3`s... how many times do you see loads of No 52 buses behind each other .... surely it would be best to use these buses on other routes.... and I was amazed how much bus fares have gone up.. we obviously now paying for their strike they had....

.... thankfully I don`t catch a bus much ... and the tram is a godsend now.....

Yeah but what about people who don't live on Tram routes? Like me, the nearest Tram route to me is Malin Bridge or Hillsborough, which means I still have to get a bus down there to get to the Tram, so if they take First Mainline buses away, us up here in Stannington and other somewhat isolated areas are stuck with no bus services!

Never have a problem with the 60's except when I'm trying to get into town!

Was on the way into work last night, and 5 60's were heading out of town up towards broomhiill, and a not a single one was heading into town. Ended up walking all the way.

Although as for the prices and reliability. I used to live up on Teesside, and Arriva provide the transport services up there, the buses never turn up, and when they do they're some crummy 16 seater that's full, and if you do get on it, it can cost you up to £2.50 to travel 3 miles!!!!

its the usual Star Journalism, First are part of a National company so if they (not the council) pull the services out of sheff really dont think it will affect them that much

The council dont have the say, As Joe (as he should know given his past) rightly confirmed it is the Traffic Comissioner that oversees the companies that run buses and implement fines for poor running etc....

Sheff council telling people to improve hmmmmm thats richer than an ex alsylum seeker running a sweat shop!

Plus would you really want to get on a powells bus more than a first

If sheff council drives them out does that mean all the services from Roth and donny would have to stop atMEadowhall and everyone get off

Get facts right Sheff Star and stop going for tacky headlines

It's all talk, good PR for the council to talk tough.
They talked tough about that company responsible for housing benefit ( who had an appalling record) but never did anything, even though they could have hit them with massive financial penalties for their various failures

Originally posted by Rich
Yeah but what about people who don't live on Tram routes? Like me, the nearest Tram route to me is Malin Bridge or Hillsborough, which means I still have to get a bus down there to get to the Tram, so if they take First Mainline buses away, us up here in Stannington and other somewhat isolated areas are stuck with no bus services!

If the bus contracts were given to stagecoach then there would be more incentive for them to run bus services that coincided with the tram.

The tram was always designed to be an aterial system, with busses doing the shorter parts of the journey between your destination and the nearest tram stop.

Lets have a proper integrated transport system by giving a company the incentive to make it integrated so that a combination of busses and trams can be used to make up longer journeys ; unlike the current system were First have a financial incentive to get people off the tram and completely onto their unreliable busses.

After all the huffing and puffing has died down after this weeks sensational headlines things will bumble on much as before on the cities buses.

Originally posted by Cyclone
And given that First Mainline is a division of a multinational company I doubt that being removed from the streets of Sheffield (if that were even possible) would result in their bankruptcy.

Routes are set to tender by the council, companies bid for them, the bids including things such as frequency and types of bus as well as how much they will pay for them.

The Council has no direct influence on who wins the bid, the passenger executive does this (I think, unless i've got it backwards).

It seems highly unlikely though that it would be legal for them to turn down all first bids for routes just because they want too.

Sueing them for breach of contract if they fail to fulfill the bid afterwards might be a more sensible option.

Pretty much what I was thinking.

Don`t know about the passenger executive, but makes good sense.

Originally posted by xafier
with the most expensive prices in Sheffield you would expect to see First with the best service wouldnt you? but personally I think Yorkshire Terrier have a MUCH more reliable service...

Thankfully I only pay £8 a week for my pass because I'm at Uni, but if I was paying £12 or £15 for a South Yorkshire weekly pass I'd be really cheesed off!
Damn right they are ! How come they are always the first bus to show up ?
How come a bus service that only has 3 buses per hour ALWAYS come first, in front of a service that allegedly runs every 10 ?
Surely if I wait and let buses by I should see one YT for 2 First buses no ?

And 8£ is alreayd very high, I remember the days of Student 7 day savers at 5.5£... That was only in 98 when first took over !

Before pushing all the blame on the bus companies the council should sort the roads out. How the hell can buses keep to a timetable with all the traffic congestion on the roads. I think its a case of get your own house in order first then they can sort the bus companies out.

Do not blame the council the police do not enforce the law as it stands re bus lanes /tram gates/ parking/ loading /unloading ect

So who should be blamed? First for not running the buses reliably... arguably, they suffer some blame - after all, Yorkshire Terrier manage it, but Yorkshire Terrier have a much smaller network to manager..

The council for not improving bus priority measures? Yep, but what about car drivers who oppose these at every possible opportunity?

The police for not enforcing these problems such as illegal parking? Maybe... but why are they doing it in the first place?

Car Drivers? sure... but maybe their all annoyed about buses maybe getting there faster, or a bus being allowed to pull in front of them (as the highway code allows for)...

Its one big circle of blame :)

I've always found the daytime service provided by First to and from Bradway to be very reliable - almost like clockwork, although the journey times are often a little longer than advertised due to the traffic nightmare that is Woodseats. Yorkshire Terrier however, whilst they do turn up are always late.

However come the evening, it's a different story - First's service very often fails to turn up, for various reasons including driver shortages and faulty buses, not to mention the routine when the service is operational where the bus goes the other way towards the terminus on it's previous trip about 10 minutes after it was meant to have left. This is due to the evening service being such a shoestring operation.

That said in the evening they have no axed the 25A to Bradway, and extended the 53 to Bradway, so lets see how that performs.

Incidentally the bus I commute home on, TM Travel's number 293, is extremely punctual, despite all the cars parked in the bus lane on Abbeydale Road.... must be the best in Yorkshire!

The article in the Star told us what the council was going to do to help the situation with the buses but not what First was going to do!! Surely the council should find better things to do with OUR money than support a useless bus service that doesn,t give a toss about its customers.

A couple of weeks ago I waited for the No 20 bus for 45 minutes, the timetable stated it should run every 10 minutes. More and more people are now going back to travelling to work in their own cars as the bus service we have cannot be relied on to get you to work on time. In my own case my company has had to re-arrange the early morning rota as I could not guarantee getting there on time the days I relied on public transport.

I also agree that the Terrier is a fantastic service. Used to catch this regularly when it ran on the old 49 route. Always on time, fare 15p cheaper than First, more comfortable ride and I have yet to meet a grumpy Terrier driver.

So as most of the sheffield public see it the following is true:

Congestion on Stannington Rd,Congestion on Ecclesall Rd,Congestion in Hillsborough.

These are all the fault of the bus operator?

Ignorant,abusive and violent passengers?

Increased amount of assaults on drivers?

These are also the fault of the bus operator,hmmmm one wonders.


People also think that by pulling a bus operator,thats it problem solved.....I doubt that very much.
As previous posts have said,the council should take its head out of its arse and look at the real issues.
Intead of wasting casj on the big greenhouse in town,this money could have been put to better use.
Instead of removing the kerb stones on pond hill,only to put them back again.....what the hell is that all about.
Bus lanes should be enforced,I would gladly drive the towtruck that should patrol Ecclesall Road during the peak period removing the offending vehicles.



When passengers are waiting for a bus,they dont see the bigger picture,granted a service may be advertised a high frequency servive,but if those vehicles are stuck in congestion they will be late.
This will have a dommino effect and the whole operation stars to go down the pan.
The passengers then become abbusive,ranting about how long they have waited,and on some occassions has resulted in violence.

Next time you board a vehicle,ask yourself why is there a protective screen between you and the driver?.

The screen on its own speaks volumes.

Also if the plug is pulled,where will will all these drivers go?,thats an easy one.

They will all go to your new found wonder bus operator,so if the drivers are at fault as some seem to think the problem is still there.

Or better still for those who think they can do better....take your PCV theory and practical test and get on with it.

Originally posted by ptigga
If the bus contracts were given to stagecoach then there would be more incentive for them to run bus services that coincided with the tram.
No-one gives out bus contracts. If a bus company wants to run a bus route, it does.

jan wilson wants to come into the real world """
she nor the council has no power to remove first from sheffield
only the traffic com has that power..
you want cheaper travel ??
cheaper tavel == lower wages for the staff
first cannot keep staff at the rates of pay as they are how could they keep them if they reduce the rate of pay
in bath first charge over £8 for a day saver
think your selfs lucky

This was sort of mentioned earlier. The best solution in Sheffield would be to create interhanges at various points on the tram routes where all busses would head for. Meaning most busses would no longer need to go in to the city centre. You would need a lot more trams but as much of the route avoids congested roads it shouldn't cause as much of a problem. You could then get rid of many of the bus lanes which in places only seem to add to the congestion.

Originally posted by jgharston
No-one gives out bus contracts. If a bus company wants to run a bus route, it does.

not completely true. 1) they must apply to run the service and the application can be denied 2) most off peak journeys on bus services such as the 77, 80, 82 etc (non overground) are actually contracted out to first to ensure there is a service running at these times

Originally posted by march
This was sort of mentioned earlier. The best solution in Sheffield would be to create interhanges at various points on the tram routes where all busses would head for. Meaning most busses would no longer need to go in to the city centre.
That ignores basic human psychology which says: "I don't wanna have to change in Hillsborough, I wanna catch a bus/tram/llama all the way into town".

Originally posted by jgharston
No-one gives out bus contracts. If a bus company wants to run a bus route, it does.

All bus services which run under contract to SYPTE are subject to competitive tender, and the contracts are awarded only to properly licensed PSV operators.

From what I can see the best way round this is not by everybody blaming someone else but for the council, police and all bus companies to sit round a table and talk like normal people with each one throwing different ideas at the problem. Nothing will be solved by each one printing there own ideas in the paper, and yes the police should implement their powers and dish some heavy fines out to people who park illegally.

If first line paid the drivers a decent wage there would be no shortage of drivers and more sociable ones too. I understand they are the worst paid in the first line group,when they should be the top paid to drive a bus through sheffield

Originally posted by shefflad
you want cheaper travel ??
cheaper tavel == lower wages for the staff

Sheffield bus drivers are already amomgst the lowest paid in the country (it was all over local radio when they went on strike a couple of years ago)

Originally posted by shefflad
first cannot keep staff at the rates of pay as they are how could they keep them if they reduce the rate of pay

My recommendation was for First Mainline to lower fares, pay drivers more and reduce the amount paid to shareholders

Originally posted by shefflad
in bath first charge over £8 for a day saver
think your selfs lucky

Incorrect. It's £3 for a daily pass. Somerset & Avon bus fares (http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/southwest/somerset/fares/adult.php)

The £8.50 charge is for the bus tour (http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/southwest/somerset/bathbustour/bathbustourindex.php)

I think you need to read the page again its £3 for a day ticket in Somerset and Avon! just like here

Originally posted by Abdul


My recommendation was for First Mainline to lower fares, pay drivers more and reduce the amount paid to shareholders



That might happen in 'cloud cuckoo' land, but this is Nulabour Land....shareholders rule...consumers drool OK ? :)

Public transport is too important a part of our infrastructure to be run for private profit. It will all end in tears :(

Originally posted by silverknight
I think you need to read the page again its £3 for a day ticket in Somerset and Avon! just like here

My mistake! I have edited the post :blush:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sadz
Did anyone read the star on 3/02/05. apparently the council wants to take Mainline off the streets if it doesn't improve its services and instead replace it with other companies. can it do this?
i thought that the first company was private, wasn't it?
If Mainline goes the only company that will be left will be Yorkshire Terrior, which operates a low frequency service and which does not go to all parts of Sheffield.
Do people really want this? [/QUOTE I pray and hope that first go for two long now we have put up with bad drivers
poor times late buses since the MainLine days I for one
wont shed a tear for them. :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Sniper
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sadz
Did anyone read the star on 3/02/05. apparently the council wants to take Mainline off the streets if it doesn't improve its services and instead replace it with other companies. can it do this?
i thought that the first company was private, wasn't it?
If Mainline goes the only company that will be left will be Yorkshire Terrior, which operates a low frequency service and which does not go to all parts of Sheffield.
Do people really want this? [/QUOTE I pray and hope that first go for two long now we have put up with bad drivers
poor times late buses since the MainLine days I for one
wont shed a tear for them. :thumbsup:

So you'd rather have non? And a simple question - where will all the bus drivers for any new services come from? Would you be willing to do the job?

Sheffield Council can not make First South Yorkshire Bankrupt as its a PLC ( the tread title is misleading). The only options open to the council and bus users has been said by me and Andy on this site many times is to log a complaint to the PTE and First with copy to the VOSA who monitor all public transport services. The VOSA can fine or place an order on it to improve or face further action.
The only other option the city council may have is expensive to us Council tax payers in the end is to ask the PTE to put the whole of Sheffield bus network out to tender and see which operators are interested.Under the current system the PTE has two options either accept the lowest bidder/tender as best value or not to process the tender at all. The only other possible option is for the council to set up a limited bus company itself and buy or hire a fleet of busses so it can be put on the tender list. It all boils down to your views on public service (tax payer) or private commercial provision.

Originally posted by Alex C.
So you'd rather have non? And a simple question - where will all the bus drivers for any new services come from? Would you be willing to do the job?

If First lose and another big company like stagecoach
wins thay will supply all the drivers if First win then a good
customer service course for all drivers is called for as for me doing the job I would but for better compony than them. :)

Originally posted by Sniper
If First lose and another big company like stagecoach
wins thay will supply all the drivers if First win then a good
customer service course for all drivers is called for as for me doing the job I would but for better compony than them. :)

OK, you say that stagecoach will supply the drivers? Where exactly do you suggest stagecoach could recruit the thousand or so (i think) drivers required...

... existing drivers perhaps?

Originally posted by Alex C.
OK, you say that stagecoach will supply the drivers? Where exactly do you suggest stagecoach could recruit the thousand or so (i think) drivers required...

... existing drivers perhaps?

Nout wrong with that. If the existing drivers are paid better and treated better by their employers then they will likely be better drivers.

Originally posted by ptigga
Nout wrong with that. If the existing drivers are paid better and treated better by their employers then they will likely be better drivers.

I may have misread Snipers first posting - it read as if the drivers needed to be replaced with new drivers. I personally find most drivers helpful - but ignoring that, i apologise :)

Originally posted by ptigga
Nout wrong with that. If the existing drivers are paid better and treated better by their employers then they will likely be better drivers.

Correct

Originally posted by ptigga
Nout wrong with that. If the existing drivers are paid better and treated better by their employers then they will likely be better drivers.

This is true,but they need to be treated better by the public as well as their employer.

On the continent Bus Drivers are treated with respect it should be the same over here.

Originally posted by Abdul
Sheffield bus drivers are already amomgst the lowest paid in the country (it was all over local radio when they went on strike a couple of years ago)



My recommendation was for First Mainline to lower fares, pay drivers more and reduce the amount paid to shareholders



Incorrect. It's £3 for a daily pass. Somerset & Avon bus fares (http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/southwest/somerset/fares/adult.php)

The £8.50 charge is for the bus tour (http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/southwest/somerset/bathbustour/bathbustourindex.php)

First day South west is £7.00 this would be equivalent to the the Fisrt Day South Yorkshire.

Originally posted by Abdul
Sheffield bus drivers are already amomgst the lowest paid in the country (it was all over local radio when they went on strike a couple of years ago)

Any idea how much they do earn? My local Bus operators pay 19 to 20 grand a year (I've got their terns and conditions in front of me) which is not bad. One of which is First. Better than working in a burger joint. Surely it can't be much worse. Are we being had?

According to the recruitment notices on the First website, Sheffield drivers are on a basic of just over £15k and it's about the same in Glasgow.

Interestingly enough though, there is no specific rate mentioned ("competetive salary") in the advertisment for Edinburgh!

Originally posted by cgksheff
According to the recruitment notices on the First website, Sheffield drivers are on a basic of just over £15k and it's about the same in Glasgow.

Interestingly enough though, there is no specific rate mentioned ("competetive salary") in the advertisment for Edinburgh!

Interesting. The T & C's that I have are for Lothian (the biggest operator in the area by a wide margin). First have to offer similar rates or the would have no drivers (both are still advertising). Even at these rates both companies are extremely short of drivers. How come the same job is worth £20k in Edinburgh and only £15K in Sheffield? Is anyone able to substantiate the difference?

Originally posted by superCol
Interesting. The T & C's that I have are for Lothian (the biggest operator in the area by a wide margin). First have to offer similar rates or the would have no drivers (both are still advertising). Even at these rates both companies are extremely short of drivers. How come the same job is worth £20k in Edinburgh and only £15K in Sheffield? Is anyone able to substantiate the difference?

historical and market forces.

Originally posted by superCol
Any idea how much they do earn? My local Bus operators pay 19 to 20 grand a year (I've got their terns and conditions in front of me) which is not bad. One of which is First. Better than working in a burger joint. Surely it can't be much worse. Are we being had?

A couple of years ago (before the strike) it was somewhere 'tween £5 and 6 an hour.

You may have seen the recruitment adverts on buses, with First South Yorkshire offering wages of '£200+ per week'. I did notice on one bus that the ad had the figure crossed out and £160 was written over it. An irate bus driver perhaps...

Note that if the annual salary is around the £15,000 mark, it is probably because they have much longer working weeks, including weekends.

Originally posted by superCol
How come the same job is worth £20k in Edinburgh and only £15K in Sheffield? Is anyone able to substantiate the difference?

Errr...shareholders dividends?

Originally posted by Abdul
Errr...shareholders dividends?

same company, same shareholders.

Originally posted by cgksheff
According to the recruitment notices on the First website, Sheffield drivers are on a basic of just over £15k and it's about the same in Glasgow.

Interestingly enough though, there is no specific rate mentioned ("competetive salary") in the advertisment for Edinburgh!

You will find £13k a bit closer to the mark for a basic starting wage, before deductions

"Starting rate" is low.

"Our salary package includes a competitive rate of pay of £228 for a minimum 39 hour week (following the initial training period) which rises to £293 per week with continued service."

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/yorkhumber/southyorkshire/jobs/jobs.php?item=20

228 x 52 = 11,856
293 x 52 = 15,236