Sheffield City Council has never been shy when it comes to transport projects like, for example, the idea of Cable Cars which they are presently floating (no pun intended).

However, does anyone recall the idea - first mooted in the early seventies I think - of a monorail that would run up Fargate and down the Moor? I recall seeing a superbly illustrated book in school showing the monorail running alongside the shops on Fargate, almost clipped to the second floor of the buildings and then in other places running down the middle of the road - albeit, 20 foot in the air.

I think I also remember a picture of the monorail crossing the Hole in the Road. It looked really impressive and I was quite sad the project never materialised.

Can anybody else remember the proposed monorail? Does anyone know where all those artists' impressions went to?

Was it a good idea? Or was it another case, literally, of pie in the sky? Come on Plain Talker, you'll remember it!

You should see their urban motorways plan!

I remember that book from school also. I remember seeing a picture of what it would look like going down High Street with a stop that took you straight into House of Fraser or Rackhams as it was proberly called at around that time.

my boss at the DWP used to talk about this a lot, it sounded fantastic.

He says that the hole in the centre of Moorfoot (the Manpower Services Commission) was built for the monorail, and that there's actually a glassed platfrom area in the building which has never been used.

Once it got to the end of the moor, it would come back round to the bottom of the moor. Does anyone know if it was planned to go through the station?

Can you imagine how much worse the city would look if a monorail sailed through the air in front of the town hall. Crikey.

Originally posted by tom_common
He says that the hole in the centre of Moorfoot (the Manpower Services Commission) was built for the monorail, and that there's actually a glassed platfrom area in the building which has never been used.


You need to get a picture of this platform.

There used to be a ramp coming out of the south end of that building, presumably to connect with a footbridge over Young Street or to another building that was never put up.

It was demolished a few years back--and I wish I had a picture of it too, although it didn't seem worth it at the time--but you can still see where it used to be by the small arch set into the buidling.

A monorail is an excellent idea - it can run above congested roads so doesn't require any road space apart from the pillars - Can you imaginge a monorail all the way along Eccashall Road, then up the middle of the ring road to terminate at the University tram stop. I imagine that it would be cheaper to build pillars than it would be to dig tunnels, and the monorail could also run at ground level when it makes sense.

It would be ace!

A problem with this idea is that disabled access has to be provided at every stop - which means expensive lifts, or long long ramps.

Originally posted by ptigga
A problem with this idea is that disabled access has to be provided at every stop - which means expensive lifts, or long long ramps.

Or anti-gravity tubes.

Or just simply upright wind tunnels...

I think the monorail would be a fantastic idea, though I'm sure those same bl**dy drivers who use bus lanes during congestion times would find a way to use the monorail tracks aswell... :hihi:

Aren't those 'Maglev'/Eric Laithwaite linear motor thingies a sort of monorail? One of those would be good for a circle line round the city centre and serving the station and hospitals. It could go in the middle of the ringroad and plug the big electromagnet into the Moore St substation.

Are there any cities that actually have a monorail? Nearly everywhere has considered one but I cant think of one that actually got built.

Only monorail I know of is in Blackpool Pleasure beach! :heyhey:

'a monorail that went along the ground when it was suitable'. Sounds like a tram to me. My friend suggested running a tram along the top of the shops on the moor.

A circle line would be so useful. How many times have you been at moorfoot and wanted to get up to west street and just ended up walking? And how many times have you been at the station and wanted to get to the city (not west street)?

Plus, let's face it: if the tram, as the best way to get people out of their cars, doesn't get an extension to places where people need it (like Abbeydale Road and the hospitals), then there isn't much chance of a monorail.

Yes I agree we need pictures; does anyone know where we can find any?

Originally posted by tom_common
'a monorail that went along the ground when it was suitable'. Sounds like a tram to me. My friend suggested running a tram along the top of the shops on the moor.



The advantage of a monorail is that where the tram is sometimes forced to run on roads and mingle with the traffic, the monorail can run above the road on stilts. Thus not causing the problems that the trams cause. Of course, there's no need to build expensive stilts when there's nothing else competing for the ground-space.

I think that running the trams across the top of the shops on the moor might cause those shops to collapse. Have you seen how bloody heavy our trams are.

Interestingly enough Cardiff will have a system similar to a monorail. It's a light rail system where the individual units are like unmanned taxis instead of like busses. They seat about 6 people and will take the passengers to any point on the network that they want to get to. I wanna go and try it out when it's built. http://www.atsltd.co.uk/

thanks ptigga good link,

I don't know why, but whenever I see anything like that, or the monorail, it always reminds me of the simpsons when they build a monorail and nearly ruin the town. They do look like the sort of things to go horribly wrong

Originally posted by ptigga
Can you imaginge a monorail all the way along Eccashall Road

Firstly, it's Ecclesall Road. No other spelling will do!

You'd probably have to get rid of half of the mature trees because some of them would be in the way of the pillars. I suspect that may be a reason why a tram route down there hasn't materialised.

It could really do with a tram route actually as it's a popular shopping and nightlife strip and there's always lots of traffic and people living close by in that corridor who'd probably jump at the chance to use the tram.

Also, from an engineering aspect, the whole road is on a very shallow gradient so it wouldn't be difficult to lay tracks.

Why not send the tram underground on Ecclesall road? I know that Sheffield along with Edinburgh is mostly one certain type of rock underground (not sure which) and it stops an underground system being dug out on the hills.
Ecclesall road is mostly flat and there could be a possibility a route could be run from the university area, down Upper Hanover street, down to cover the Moor and then Ecclesall road.

Originally posted by pberry
Firstly, it's Ecclesall Road. No other spelling will do!

You'd probably have to get rid of half of the mature trees because some of them would be in the way of the pillars. I suspect that may be a reason why a tram route down there hasn't materialised.

It could really do with a tram route actually as it's a popular shopping and nightlife strip and there's always lots of traffic and people living close by in that corridor who'd probably jump at the chance to use the tram.

Also, from an engineering aspect, the whole road is on a very shallow gradient so it wouldn't be difficult to lay tracks.

Sorry, point taken about the spelling.

I think the main reason for not putting the tram down Ecclesall road is because it's a very sucessful shopping street. The powers that be can't risk doing to Ecclesall what they did to Hillsbrough and Langsett when the tram was put in. If Ecclesall Road was closed for the tram installation works for months then it would seriously effect a lot of small businesses and could kill the area commercially.

Also it would be difficult to keep the free parking spots (sorry, bus lanes) because I suspect that the tram would require a wider carriageway than is currently available. Without the mass of free parking the area will not survive so well commerically.

Originally posted by duffman
Why not send the tram underground on Ecclesall road? I know that Sheffield along with Edinburgh is mostly one certain type of rock underground (not sure which) and it stops an underground system being dug out on the hills.
Ecclesall road is mostly flat and there could be a possibility a route could be run from the university area, down Upper Hanover street, down to cover the Moor and then Ecclesall road.


Why have an underground when you can have a monorail in the Sky!

Even if the tram was underground, I think that they would struggle to build the tunnels without using cut-and-cover methods. The trams are huge, much bigger than underground trains and are not designed to run in tunnels. The disruption caused by building a cut-and-cover style tunnel for the tram would be even worse than the disruption caused by surface level tracks.

I'm not a structural engineer so I can't claim any technical knowledge of tunnel building, but I have a feeling that boring a tunnel (as opposed to cut-and-cover) would be unfeasable because of the size of the tunnel and the closeness to the surface. Can any engineers add any insight?

Re: Going underground?

Wouldn't it be difficult to stop the Porter Brook infiltrating the tunnel?

(The river not the pub!)

Underground pub does sound a good idea, i'm not sure of the location of the river.

Originally posted by march
Are there any cities that actually have a monorail? Nearly everywhere has considered one but I cant think of one that actually got built.

Brockway, Ogdenville and North Haverbrook. And, by golly, it put them on the map!

Originally posted by pberry
Re: Going underground?

Wouldn't it be difficult to stop the Porter Brook infiltrating the tunnel?

(The river not the pub!)

Sod the tram. Lets have underground canal barges!

There's a process what's known as 'box-jacking' ( i think that's the correct name) which could work for an underground system.

they used it on the M1 at Northampton to bore a new tunnel under the motorway and it basically starts digging underneath the road, but at the same time, creates a safe frame to stop the road above from collapsing into the new tunnel.

(don't think i've explained that very well)

At no time during this boring process was the M1 closed. Maybe it could work here.

Originally posted by ptigga
I'm not a structural engineer so I can't claim any technical knowledge of tunnel building, but I have a feeling that boring a tunnel (as opposed to cut-and-cover) would be unfeasable because of the size of the tunnel and the closeness to the surface. Can any engineers add any insight? Out trams run on a pantograph(?) system (overhead wires). That's what makes tunnelling non-viable. The tunnels would need to be huge to accomodate this. The london underground is 'third rail'.

Edit: that's also why we can't 'just buy new trains' to dispense with the diesel soot in Midland Station. All of the tunnels and bridges on each route would need to be altered. How long is Totley tunnel?

A monorail seems like a good idea in theory, but the structures that would need to be built to carry it would be an eyesore.

And everybody who lives along the route would object to the planning application on the grounds of loss of privacy. I don't fancy a train load of people staring through my bedroom window thanks!

From what I recall, the whole project was based entirely in the city centre. As I said in my opening post, the pictures in the book showed the monorail running alongside buildings up and down Fargate, thus negating the need for pillars. The rail itself was attached at a second floor level to the buildings. I presume it was envisaged that the monorail would travel down the Moor in similar fashion, 'clipped' to the second floor of the buildings.

But we're talking over 30 years ago here, and the last time I saw that book was in Nether Green Middle school which I left in 1981, so it's difficult to remember! The drawings, made to look like photographs were in black and white.

I suppose a trip to the Library archives is the only chance I'll have of looking at those pictures again.

One city that has a monorail is Seattle. Check out the link.

http://www.seattlemonorail.com/

Originally posted by Ousetunes
From what I recall, the whole project was based entirely in the city centre. I was responding to the 'Ecclesall Rd' direction that the thread had gone in.

Another advantage of the tram is that it removes pot holes, all the roads that the tram currently goes along are nice and smooth as they never need to be dug-up, so the tram makes the road better for the car drivers too.

trouble with monrails are they cast shadows on the streets below. I know they're only thin, but they aren't too attractive, i'd rather see trams.


lol @ underground tram.

Originally posted by ptigga
Sorry, point taken about the spelling.

The powers that be can't risk doing to Ecclesall what they did to Hillsbrough and Langsett

Hi ptigga.
well done for learning how to spell Ecclesall,
Guess what it's

Hillsborough

Sorry for being picky.

Originally posted by muddycoffee
Hi ptigga.
well done for learning how to spell Ecclesall,
Guess what it's

Hillsborough

Sorry for being picky.

Thanks Muddycoffee. I'll double check my spellings of obscure place names in the future. Whilst we're on the topic I've noticed that your grammar could use some work. You need a capital "W" for "well", and a small "g" for "Guess"; unless you change the comma after Ecclesall to a full stop in which case you can keep the capital G. You also need a full stop after Hillsborough.

I'm not intending to derail this facinating discussion about monorails by starting a grammar discussion. I think that the idea of a monorail in Sheffield is something that needs much more exploration.

Not wishing to sound like a spod or any thing, but I read this in a book the other week.

"The Abortive Minitram Proposal,

One proposal considered by the Land Use Transportation study was know as the 'Minitram'.
This name was a misnomer,as the vehicles were not trams at all, as they could not run on the street. They were small driverless electric vehicles that ran on a special guide way, generally overhead.

Stations would have been complicated affairs with lifts and escalators as well as stairs.

An article in the New Scientist described the plan as "an ugly white elephant" and "a costly fraud", as a similar scheme in the USA was at that time suffering a cost over-run of 800%

The whole idea was abandoned after being thrown out by the Sheffield public as enviromently obtrusive and the study team didn't think it offered value for money"

There's a picture here next to the article taken from inside the 'hole in the road' with a artists impression of the monarail above it. The one thing the artist forgot was the shadow that it would have cast would block out all the light in the hole.

Hope this is of some help.

Originally posted by alchresearch
Brockway, Ogdenville and North Haverbrook. And, by golly, it put them on the map!

How about Kuala Lumpa, Tokyo, Seatle, Las Vegas, Singapore, Sydney and Vancouver.

I remember seeing some coloured pics of an artists impression of the monorail in Sheffield. Wide. tree lined plaza like streets with the monorail running down one side of it with loads of happy smiling pedestrians and contented looking people on the monorail train. Boy they had some funny idea's about the future in the 70's.
A mono track fastened to the buildings in the city would probably of meant rebuilding every building that it was fastened to.
If such a thing was ever to happen I would expect to dsee the stations located on top of buildings with steps and elevators going up between the retail units. The shops may lose out on a bit of their shop floor space but they'd have to consider this with all the free publicity of their wares as people went up to the station gazing into the shops as they went.

I like the sound of it. It would have been totally different and might have even been a success.

Can people stop confusing 'monorail' with 'elevated railway'. A monorail system can be elevated, ground level or underground, and a birail system can be elevated, ground level or underground.

From what I recall, the whole project was based entirely in the city centre. As I said in my opening post, the pictures in the book showed the monorail running alongside buildings up and down Fargate, thus negating the need for pillars. The rail itself was attached at a second floor level to the buildings. I presume it was envisaged that the monorail would travel down the Moor in similar fashion, 'clipped' to the second floor of the buildings.

I suppose a trip to the Library archives is the only chance I'll have of looking at those pictures again.

I remember an exhibition on the third floor in Cole Brothers detailing the monorail and they even had a large model of one of the carriages in a glass case.
They also had A4 size leaflets explaining the proposal and doctored black & white photos of the city centre with the "monorail in place"
To the best of my knowledge I've still got one in the loft, so give me a day or so to retrieve it, get it scanned and if you PM me with your email 'ousetunes' I'll gladly send you a copy

How about Kuala Lumpa, Tokyo, Seatle, Las Vegas, Singapore, Sydney and Vancouver.

I think that alchresearch was using a line from 'The Simpsons' the 3 cities he used are probably very fictitous, in the episode in question a Monorail salesman cons Sprigfield out of a massive windfall and gives them a second hand system that fails.. MMMmmm sounds familiar:huh:

Another advantage of the tram is that it removes pot holes, all the roads that the tram currently goes along are nice and smooth as they never need to be dug-up, so the tram makes the road better for the car drivers too.

And they have to be kept so pristine that cars aren't allowed to go along them any more.

I think that alchresearch was using a line from 'The Simpsons' the 3 cities he used are probably very fictitous, in the episode in question a Monorail salesman cons Sprigfield out of a massive windfall and gives them a second hand system that fails.. MMMmmm sounds familiar:huh:

I sure was, I was really disappointed nobody picked it up at the time!

oo monorail, anyone remember that episode of the simpsons!!?? class!! could imagine that happenin in sheffield too! haha:hihi:



(edit) o, i see i was beatin to it!

I sure was, I was really disappointed nobody picked it up at the time!

Everyone else was day dreaming of a shiny new transport system and missed your excellent post.

apparantly, the reason that this building was designed with a hole going straight through the middle....

http://www.lucas-digital.com/images/sheffield/sheffield_the_moor2.jpg

....is that the architectural plans facilitated a mono rail (or some other form of rapid transport system) to be sent straight down the moor, through the manpower services commission building (where there would also be a station) and then onwards up london road.

is there any weight in this story? or is it just a local urban myth?

apparantly, the reason that this building was designed with a hole going straight through the middle....

http://www.lucas-digital.com/images/sheffield/sheffield_the_moor2.jpg

is there any weight in this story? or is it just a local urban myth?

Not sure. However there used to be a ramp coming out of the south end of that building that would have connected to... another building that would have gone up on the still vacant site across the way at Young Street? a monorail station? ;)

You should see their urban motorways plan!


Hi,

Does the council have a Motorway Plan - or any kind of plan for that matter?

After the war, a big model was made showing how the council intended develop the city with all these super highways down the Don valley,etc. Little, if any of it happened and many of the things that did eventually happen were never in that plan. Remember the Civic Circle that was to keep
cars out of the city centre. Only Arundel and Furnival Gates were built and work done on Angel Street/Snig hill, West Bar and West Bar Green.

The tunnel that was to connect Charter Square to the Bottom of Broad Lane was never dug, presumably because of costs.

Regards

Liverpool used to have an overhead railway which travelled along the docks and basically took dockers to work and brought them back again. Having travelled on it, I can tell you that if you were interested in ships, you could see them all while you travelled. Sadly, when the docks were reduced it went down the drain until eventually it was demolished. Lovely thing to travel on though.

Liverpool used to have an overhead railway which travelled along the docks and basically took dockers to work and brought them back again. Having travelled on it, I can tell you that if you were interested in ships, you could see them all while you travelled. Sadly, when the docks were reduced it went down the drain until eventually it was demolished. Lovely thing to travel on though.


Hi Peter,

I remember riding the overhead railway. Yes, it was the best way to see all the shiping in the various docks. I seem to remember a well known passenger ship had previously caught fire in one of the docks and the burnt-out hull was still there when we passed. Can't remember the name of the ship or what year it was. Sometime in the late 1940's, early 50's?

We Boarded the train at the station near the Pierhead and went all the way down to Seaforth ? There was hardly anything there at the time but now I think it is where they built the big container terminal.

Then all the way up river to place (I'm guessing) called Dingle? The station there was in a tunnel I think. Then back to the Pierhead. The round trip cost about 15p. It was really useful for the dock workers going to work. Didn't they call it "The Dockers Umbrella", or something like that?

I had heard that it had been scrapped, which is a pitty. Then again, thats typical of most things these days. Here in Canada, anything that is useful is usually doomed, whereas anything that most people find totally useless our local councils seem to hang onto until the bitter end.

Regards

Hi,

Does the council have a Motorway Plan - or any kind of plan for that matter?

After the war, a big model was made showing how the council intended develop the city with all these super highways down the Don valley,etc. Little, if any of it happened and many of the things that did eventually happen were never in that plan. Remember the Civic Circle that was to keep
cars out of the city centre. Only Arundel and Furnival Gates were built and work done on Angel Street/Snig hill, West Bar and West Bar Green.

The tunnel that was to connect Charter Square to the Bottom of Broad Lane was never dug, presumably because of costs.

Regards
There's a whole thread somewhere about unbuilt roads in Sheffield. A 'search' for Heeley Bypass should unearth it for you :thumbsup:

Hi,

Does the council have a Motorway Plan - or any kind of plan for that matter?

http://www.d-zyne.demon.co.uk/srp-urban_motorway.htm

I remember riding the overhead railway. Yes, it was the best way to see all the shiping in the various docks. I seem to remember a well known passenger ship had previously caught fire in one of the docks and the burnt-out hull was still there when we passed. Can't remember the name of the ship or what year it was. Sometime in the late 1940's, early 50's?


Wow, I envy you for your trip on the Liverpool overhead railway! As I understand, it ran from Dingle in the south to Seaforth in the north - that's a long way. There are some fantastic pics here (http://www.timbosliverpool.co.uk/lor/index.htm) - if it was still there, it would be an incredible way to see the new developments round Pierhead, Kings Dock and Princes Dock.

Re: Liverpool Dockers Railway

In an early version of the Beatles' 1965 (Rubber Soul) track 'In My Life', there was a reference to the 'dockers' umbrella'. John and Paul dropped the verse when it came to recording it, which is a bit of a shame as it is an interesting piece of history.

http://www.d-zyne.demon.co.uk/srp-urban_motorway.htm


Hi,

Thanks for the info. Yes, that looks like the layout I remember from the model after the war (1948 or so). In my previous comment, I hesitated about mentioning the big fly-over that swept around by the Wicker Arches ( I grew up in the Wicker so remembered that detail of the model in particular) because plans and ideas change over time.

In the early sixties, I went to a lecture given by some of the senior members of the planning/engineering department. I remember the name Warmsley but not sure if this is correct. At the lecture, the topic was the Civic Circle I refered to previously. I thought it was a great idea but the School-of-Hard- Knocks had already told that good ideas seldom see the light of day or if by accident they are built or provided, councils usually eliminate them at the earliest opportunity. Its a shame because there has been no shortage of good, (not always expensive) ideas for Sheffield over the years but sadly most have ended up in the trash can. Many councils claim to be Buiding for Tomorrow when in fact, they are Building for the Past.

Regards

I remember the name Warmsley but not sure if this is correct.

I recall that name from some old drawings of the Castle Markets, that I had to use in the late 80's.... but I can't remember if he was the Chief Architect or the City Engineer :¬/

Cheers

Haydn

Hi Peter,

I remember riding the overhead railway. Yes, it was the best way to see all the shiping in the various docks. I seem to remember a well known passenger ship had previously caught fire in one of the docks and the burnt-out hull was still there when we passed. Can't remember the name of the ship or what year it was. Sometime in the late 1940's, early 50's?

We Boarded the train at the station near the Pierhead and went all the way down to Seaforth ? There was hardly anything there at the time but now I think it is where they built the big container terminal.

Then all the way up river to place (I'm guessing) called Dingle? The station there was in a tunnel I think. Then back to the Pierhead. The round trip cost about 15p. It was really useful for the dock workers going to work. Didn't they call it "The Dockers Umbrella", or something like that?

I had heard that it had been scrapped, which is a pitty. Then again, thats typical of most things these days. Here in Canada, anything that is useful is usually doomed, whereas anything that most people find totally useless our local councils seem to hang onto until the bitter end.

Regards

Hi Falls — one ship that caught fire and was destroyed was the Lucania, in Huskisson Dock, but that was in 1909. I’m looking to trace later fires but no success yet. Liverpool commemorates the ship with a Lucania Street. In fact the city commemorates a lot of the great liners.

There used to be a ramp coming out of the south end of that building, presumably to connect with a footbridge over Young Street or to another building that was never put up.
It was to connect to another building that never got built. It could look like a 'platform' to the uninitiated though. :) That's not to say that there isn't something somewhere else though.

The building, IIRC was originally occupied by the Manpower Services Commission, and had incarnations with the DWP, and DoEducation, i believe it is involved with immigration, now?

The tunnel and walkway under the moorfoot government building were abandoned/ closed off, almost imediately the building was opened, as they were deemed to be a "security risk". I cannot remember this "archway" ever being open to the public.

You can still see the opening where the buses etc were meant to travel under the building,through to the moor. The pedestrian bridge was removed a few years ago. I also remember very well the "walkway that went nowhere", sticking out on the Ecclesall Road side of the MSC building.

PT

With regard to the monorail, I think that it would have been much cheaper than the supertram to build and would probably have covered a much greater area, however I think that the supertram is a far superior product and while much more expensive to build I think it will be cheaper to maintain, and will last into forseeable future, while a monorail would have looked a little creaky after a decade.

I find myself very interested in the old road schemes in the city, and I believe large parts of them were not built because of the problems with the costs and freeing up land for them by destroying perfectly good homes and premises.

However it is plain to see, that large parts of them were actually built at the time, in the areas which were available, and as the decades have passed and buildings and areas have moved on, other parts of the network have been added on quietly without anyone noticing.
Of course high profile sections have been done with lots of fuss, like the complicated nothern section of the ring road which started ceremonially with a government minister digging the "first sod",
incidentally a far superior road than the original 60s version up in the sky on flyovers,
But other sections have just appeared like, the stretch between Granville square and Edmund road, which is is now a huge dual carriageway, and the section past meersbrook church, built as a complex junction for the new retail park but a section of dual carriageway in all but name.

Its funny how many artirial roads have dual carriageway at either end and fizzle out into narrow sections in the middle where historical popular shopping areas are. Given enough decades I am sure they will all eventuallly look like Penistone road.

Hi Falls — one ship that caught fire and was destroyed was the Lucania, in Huskisson Dock, but that was in 1909. I’m looking to trace later fires but no success yet. Liverpool commemorates the ship with a Lucania Street. In fact the city commemorates a lot of the great liners.


Hi Peter,

This is really pushing my memory. Seem to recollect the ship had keeled-over somewhat, presumably because of all the water they would have had to pump in, and was leaning over onto the dock wall, possibly on to one of the sheds as well.

Regarding the ship's name and owner, I really haven't a clue but will start with Canadian Pacific.

Regards

Falls — thought you might like to know that the tunnel you spoke of re. the Liverpool Overhead Railway still exists and has been spruced up by Liverpool City Council.

Falls — found this relating to Huskisson Dock. Year was 1942: “In Huskisson Dock, incendiaries set fire to an ammunition ship, the S.S. Malakand, which blew up the entire dock and ripped a section out of the Overhead Railway. Despite this, only four people seem to have been killed by it - two crew who were trying to scuttle the ship and, tragically, a newly-married couple whose car was hit by debris.”

Hi Falls — one ship that caught fire and was destroyed was the Lucania, in Huskisson Dock, but that was in 1909. I’m looking to trace later fires but no success yet. Liverpool commemorates the ship with a Lucania Street. In fact the city commemorates a lot of the great liners.


Hi Peter,

Bingo!!! I found it.

Ref: my comments about the burnt out ship I saw in one of the Liverpool Docks during my ride on the overhead railway.
.
It was Canadian Pacific's Empress of Canada (formally the Duchess of Richmond). It was being worked on in the Gladstone Dock and caught fire. January 25, 1953. They pumped so much water into her to put out the fire that she did go over and ended-up laid on her side in the bottom of the dock.

See: www.merchantnavyofficers.com/empcanada.html

Regards

So, that’s that cleared up to our mutual satisfaction! Well done, Falls. I was searching the wrong dock, but an ammunition ship blowing up — that must have been a real frightener!

Hi Peter,

Ref: Munition Ship Explosions

This is 100% off-topic but exploding ships is a whole topic in itself. Here in Canada, there was a terrible ship collision, and subsequent explosion, in the narrows of Halifax Harbour, Nova Scotia, in December 1917.

Over 2000 people were killed and it devastated a large section of the city. It was reputed to be the worlds largest man made explosions until Hiroshima in the Second War. The anchor from one ship was blown clear over the city and landed about 3-4 miles from the blast site. The city authories left it where it landed and that became the memorial site.

There is a very good book on the subject, published in 1963(?) by an English writer. He went to Halifax and interviewed just about all the survivors who were still alive.

There was also another bad munitions ship explosion in Bombay(Mumbai) in the early 1940's. I was there in 2001 but nobody I spoke to knew anything about it. All too young.

Regards

There was another in the United States when two ships collided. I remember seeing reference to in online, but can’t remember where now. However, this all started when someone asked about Sheffield’s monrail! I think it time we let them get back to it. No chance of getting one, but nevertheless … let them dream on. A monorail would certainly solve a lot of Sheffield’s traffic problems.

Hi Peter,

Agree we should get back to Monorails, that is if the subject hasn't already been exhausted.

I have mixed feelings about monorails. Obviously, they are clear of road or walking areas below; however, I haven't seen one that is really unobtrusive. The well known one at Wuppertal in Germany, has been going for a century or more with considerable sucess; however, I think this runs over a river for part of the way which reduces the visual intrusion and some of the noise.

Of course with the suspended type, where the stations are also elevated, it takes a lot careful designing to reduce the climb up and down to a minimum. Also, there are no simple solutions to make the stations easily accessible for people with physically disablilities.

The City of Niagara Falls here in Southern Ontario, has been talking about building a monorail for more than 30 years. This would be to move tourists between the various attractions during the summer. In the early 1970's a section of elevated track was actually constructed to show the public what it would be like but it was eventually taken down. Since then, the subject has been raised from time to time, usually by people or groups who thinks its a good idea but have no money.

The problem is they aren't cheap to build and so far, nobody has stepped forward with the cash to do it. The Niagara main tourist season only last for 100 days: not long enough to pay for the investment.

Regards

Yes, I guess they are VERY expensive so no chance in Sheffield then. In fact no chance anywhere else in England. Despite the Government’s call for a greater use of integrated public transport systems (which no town, city or village has yet achieved), it’s become penny-pinching in the realms of trams. Every city that wants to extend its system lacks the money and can’t get it, and Liverpool can’t even get the money to build one! I keep telling them, jokingly, that they’ll have to go back into the slave trade. They made a fortune in those days.

They manage to run one at Blackpool Pleasure Beach.

Mind you - they do it for profit and don't have the endless lines of civil servants with vested interests and internal funding requirements ;)

In the 1980s Blackpool Pleasure Beach wanted to build one all the way into the town, but the Council were having none of it! Daft really, because they could have claimed some rights over it and brought in lots of money. In earlier days when Blackpool Pleasure Beach gave the Corporation a piece of land which would allow them to turn their trams round, the Beach stipulated that they’d only give them the land if the Corporation would put ‘Blackpool Pleasure Beach‘ in the Destination Box of trams coming back from Fleetwood. This still works well even today.

sorry to drag this old thread up but came accros this topic and found this link too

http://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=6328&st=0&p=40381&hl=minitram&fromsearch=1&#entry40381

sorry to drag this old thread up but came accros this topic and found this link too

http://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=6328&st=0&p=40381&hl=minitram&fromsearch=1&#entry40381
Thats cool. I would have liked to have a go on it. I don't know whether it's been mentioned but I thought that instead of the tram a monorail was considered.

Do you not find it strange that items once scrapped as in effective tend to return.
Sheffield had a tram system far better than the supretram it served more areas and ran more trams. But sheffield council scrapped it as unsightly with all the wires in favour of motor buses.
Rotherham and Doncaster had electric trolly buses that had batterries so they could be driven to the side should the overhed fail. And they didnt need massive expensive work on the roads to support the heavyweight like the supertram did.

Many european cities run trolley buses in modern traffic with no problems

So if we were to bring back an old system why didnt we get trolley buses, all it needed was the overhead wiring.

And before anyone says it " its not a tram system" now its a " Light rail ssystem" so guess what they didnt bring back the trams after all