So the government are going to get tough on school kids that cause havoc due to yobs that plauge them.
Its at a record worse and schools are falling apart, teachers going home stressed and going sick.

Well. who's fault is it.

Not the kids, but the do gooders who banned corpral punishment and discipline.
They had it when I was at school and kept us in shape and respected our society.
Well its all comeback to haunt them now has'nt it.

you cleverly ignore the 2 or 3 generations who were fine without it, where does that leave your argument?

Originally posted by Cyclone
you cleverly ignore the 2 or 3 generations who were fine without it, where does that leave your argument?

Because they're the generations who brought up the current generation maybe? Just a thought....

Originally posted by t020
Because they're the generations who brought up the current generation maybe? Just a thought....

then we're all doomed, and the only way we can be saved is to beat the next generation half to death. That'll ensure the survival of mankind, no?

Originally posted by Cyclone
then we're all doomed, and the only way we can be saved is to beat the next generation half to death. That'll ensure the survival of mankind, no?

Could give it a try....

Originally posted by t020
Because they're the generations who brought up the current generation maybe? Just a thought.... Thats quite true but you forget that the stricter upbringing was taken out of our hands.
Schools have brought on there own problems where as discipline at the home has been taken away from parents by the social services.
Now I don't believe in going over the top when it comes to smacking but i feel its neeeded to keep kids from misbehaving.
Now if we did wrong at school we would get the cane and that made sure we did'nt go off the rails again.
Now kids laugh in your face.

smacking is good for so many things.

demonstrating a loss of control to your child.

showing that being biggest means your right.

proving that violence means you get your way.


Smacking is bad parenting. If you've reached that stage then you're already doing the job wrong.
You can dismiss me (as you no doubt will) as some crazed liberal, but it's nothing to do with liberalness or otherwise, it's psychology. You can prove it with dogs, positive reinforcement is more effective and less damaging than negative reinforcement.

It's interesting, I'd probably describe myself as middle left wing, but whenever I argue on here I find myself taking a liberal view as so many apparently ill thought out comments are made from a right wing viewpoint. On other forums I find myself arguing from both sides as things tend to be more balanced.

Originally posted by Cycleracer
Thats quite true but you forget that the stricter upbringing was taken out of our hands.
Schools have brought on there own problems where as discipline at the home has been taken away from parents by the social services.
Now I don't believe in going over the top when it comes to smacking but i feel its neeeded to keep kids from misbehaving.
Now if we did wrong at school we would get the cane and that made sure we did'nt go off the rails again.
Now kids laugh in your face.

What a load of complete and utter rubbish. You think its OK to hit a kid with a cane/strap or whatever?? Would you do that to your own kids - I think not.

First of all the 'announcement' from the government is pure electioneering. How do they propose to enforce thier 'zero tolerance' campaign on low level distruption? In one breath they say Inclusion matters, what messgae does this send??

Second, "Discipline has been taking away from parents by SS" What have SS got to do with it?? They dont make the rules mate and in any case you obviously have NO long term experience of SS because to any one who has would be able to tell you that they only 'take action' in the most extreme cases - they have no choice, SS are chronically understaffed. This argument that parents have no power to discipline is BS - its used by an excuse by those parents who cannot control thier OWN kids - just take responsibility for your own children and stop blaming anyone and everyone else.

But Cyclone, if smacking and corporal punishment are such bad methods of behavioural training, why weren't kids of a few decades ago as unruly and badly behaved as they are today?

Originally posted by t020
But Cyclone, if smacking and corporal punishment are such bad methods of behavioural training, why weren't kids of a few decades ago as unruly and badly behaved as they are today?
An excellent point.
I know a lot of people dont agree with smacking their children and I respect thier view point, but I personally think if it's called for - it is an acceptable form of discipline to teach kids right from wrong.

Kids these days have no fear of police because they know nothing serious will happen to them if they break the law. They know the police wont hurt them (i.e. grab em by the ear ole or a smack round the back of the noggin) and they have no fear of getting locked up.

All they have to do is look forward to their next free holiday for being bad.

It's about time we got back to old value and old ways of dealing with yobs today IMO.

Originally posted by t020
But Cyclone, if smacking and corporal punishment are such bad methods of behavioural training, why weren't kids of a few decades ago as unruly and badly behaved as they are today?

whilst not the best method, it is still one that works. So I would say that overall parents of those times did a better job than 'some' parents now.

Remember that we are talking about a minority of children here that are disruptive, it's certainly not as prevalent as the media would have you think.

I'd put the 'better' parenting of the worst parents from 30 years ago compared to the worst from today down to a generally less permissive society and the much higher instances of nuclear families. Today single parents are common, 30 years ago they were virtually unheard off.
I don't have any evidence for this, but my suspicion is that a higher than expected (by number) proportion of disruptive children come from single parent/broken marriage families.

Originally posted by t020
But Cyclone, if smacking and corporal punishment are such bad methods of behavioural training, why weren't kids of a few decades ago as unruly and badly behaved as they are today?

Sorry for jumping in but the reason why kids are more poorly behaved now is because of society in general. Kids are given more and more rights (which is fair enough) but they dont take on board the responsibilities that go with them. There is a massive market for teenages and the media love to create and reinforce stereotypes of teenages and how they seemingly behave - its not surprising that they play up to this.

Lets not generalise though, the VAST amount of kids and teenages behave well and are responsible and key parts of the community

Originally posted by mat1978
What a load of complete and utter rubbish. You think its OK to hit a kid with a cane/strap or whatever?? Would you do that to your own kids - I think not.

First of all the 'announcement' from the government is pure electioneering. How do they propose to enforce thier 'zero tolerance' campaign on low level distruption? In one breath they say Inclusion matters, what messgae does this send??

Second, "Discipline has been taking away from parents by SS" What have SS got to do with it?? They dont make the rules mate and in any case you obviously have NO long term experience of SS because to any one who has would be able to tell you that they only 'take action' in the most extreme cases - they have no choice, SS are chronically understaffed. This argument that parents have no power to discipline is BS - its used by an excuse by those parents who cannot control thier OWN kids - just take responsibility for your own children and stop blaming anyone and everyone else. So you have kids then do you.

Yes 2 - why whats your point?

Originally posted by mat1978
Lets not generalise though, the VAST amount of kids and teenages behave well and are responsible and key parts of the community
They also have a lot of good ideas, and aren't as heavily conditioned as us old uns.

If teaching is becoming riot control, it is because some parents have passed the buck on bringing their children up, to the school, whose responsibility it is to educate them, not mother and father them.

Good parents nurture balanced offspring, who nurture balanced offspring etc.

I blame the parents - every time. Corporal punishment has naff all to do with it.

Originally posted by mat1978
Yes 2 - why whats your point?
They're not teenagers though ;)

Here's (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23460&highlight=smacking) a juicy thread about smacking kids from the times of yor and yesteryear :D

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
I blame the parents - every time. Corporal punishment has naff all to do with it.
How can you even say that, when you've had issues with your own child jumpin on your chest?

Originally posted by mat1978
Yes 2 - why whats your point? my point is that your comments sound like they are coming from someone who does'nt have kids.
I did'nt say it was OK to use a cane and I never mentioned a strap.
I am just pointing out it did us no harm, however yes its not something I recommend these days but in my view a smack should be given if needed to put some discipline back into the child.
Shouting at them just causes high blood pressure for a parent and the child finds it funny.
BaBouncer basically said it all and all the power has been taken away from parents, teachers and the police.

Originally posted by DaBouncer
They're not teenagers though ;)

Here's a juicy thread about smacking kids from the times of yor and yesteryear :D

How do you know? I was an early starter ;)

I do have experience of working with them and thier parents tho...

I would suggest making the kids parent(s) attend school with their disruptive kids. This shouldn't be to hard to arrange as most of the disruption is blamed on deprivation due to unemployment, so the parents (and I use that term loosely!) have lots of free time.

I would also suggest that any damage caused to school premises is repaired/cleaned up by these same parents.

Maybe, just maybe, they would then cotton on to their responsibilities.

Failing that, what if all the responsible parents who feel their child's education is suffering due to continuous classroom disruption by little Kylie or Wayne withdrew their kids until the louts are withdrawn - or sorted.

And all those who blame the individual schools......what do you suggest the schools do off their own bats?

That's my two penn'orth

Originally posted by mat1978
What a load of complete and utter rubbish. You think its OK to hit a kid with a cane/strap or whatever?? Would you do that to your own kids - I think not.

First of all the 'announcement' from the government is pure electioneering. How do they propose to enforce thier 'zero tolerance' campaign on low level distruption? In one breath they say Inclusion matters, what messgae does this send??

Second, "Discipline has been taking away from parents by SS" What have SS got to do with it?? They dont make the rules mate and in any case you obviously have NO long term experience of SS because to any one who has would be able to tell you that they only 'take action' in the most extreme cases - they have no choice, SS are chronically understaffed. This argument that parents have no power to discipline is BS - its used by an excuse by those parents who cannot control thier OWN kids - just take responsibility for your own children and stop blaming anyone and everyone else. do you have any kids? i know a local man who when the police brought his two kids home for breaking into cars told them that was the last straw,take them away,the police refused,even though this was the fourth time in a week the police had been to his house, he grounded them,took away their games,tv etc,they did it again, he slapped them, the police came after the two little gits made a complaint against their own father

so please any one,tell us parents,just how do you control kids

in my experience most of the so called do gooders have never had any

Originally posted by Cycleracer
my point is that your comments sound like they are coming from someone who does'nt have kids.
I did'nt say it was OK to use a cane and I never mentioned a strap.
I am just pointing out it did us no harm, however yes its not something I recommend these days but in my view a smack should be given if needed to put some discipline back into the child.
Shouting at them just causes high blood pressure for a parent and the child finds it funny.
BaBouncer basically said it all and all the power has been taken away from parents, teachers and the police.

I agree complelty, parents should have the right to punish their kids however they see fit. But parents HAVE to take the responsibilty, its just another example of the 'blame anyone else but ourselves' culture that we find ourselves. The same culture that, IMO has bred the behavioural problems we have.

Originally posted by depoix
do you have any kids? i know a local man who when the police brought his two kids home for breaking into cars told them that was the last straw,take them away,the police refused,even though this was the fourth time in a week the police had been to his house, he grounded them,took away their games,tv etc,they did it again, he slapped them, the police came after the two little gits made a complaint against their own father

so please any one,tell us parents,just how do you control kids

in my experience most of the so called do gooders have never had any

..you know I have kids, we met remember! (the peter pan songs!):thumbsup:

There ar eno simple answers, but for the 99.9% of well adjusted, well behaved kids you will find loving, caring parents who know exactly how to control thier kids.

Originally posted by mat1978
I agree complelty, parents should have the right to punish their kids however they see fit. But parents HAVE to take the responsibilty, its just another example of the 'blame anyone else but ourselves' culture that we find ourselves. The same culture that, IMO has bred the behavioural problems we have. So you do agree that taking the power from parents does have something to do with kids being out of control, before it had nothing to do withit.
Thats what my point is all about, taking away the power of strict authourity from adults.
Not all parents of bad kids are to blame, but yes parents are responsible for there behaviour so if thats so, give them back the power my parents had, give the police back the power to grab the brat by the scruff or clip his ear if they do wrong.

My dad used to joke that kids are like puppies. 'Train them properly when they're young, and they'll be loyal and obedient for life, cos that's the only existence they'll ever know'.

Trouble with this is that to train a puppy, or kid, you need to spend time with them. Palming them off with 'nan-nan', Auntie Cath, or some creche on a too-regular basis whilst the parent(s) go to bingo, dancing, night out or just because they want the peace and quiet is not parenting and very neglectful. Is there any wonder these kids don't respect or even recognise their parents for who they are.

Its these parents who need the caning IMHO!

Originally posted by Cycleracer
So you do agree that taking the power from parents does have something to do with kids being out of control, before it had nothing to do withit.
Thats what my point is all about, taking away the power of strict authourity from adults.
Not all parents of bad kids are to blame, but yes parents are responsible for there behaviour so if thats so, give them back the power my parents had, give the police back the power to grab the brat by the scruff or clip his ear if they do wrong.

Im not arguing about police power - perhaps they should have more. I honestly believe that parents dont have less power in reality - in theory - yes, but in practice - would you stop smacking your kids (if you thought it was right and appropraite at the time) just because the law told you you couldnt?? So I dont think parents are powerless, there's nothing to say you cant be strict parents. The best I think we can do as parents is guide and love our children as best we can and then hope they listen to our advice. As I already said, In my experience the best kids have the best parents. There are always going to be few naughty kids with good parents, but this isnt down to the govermnent -its down to the media, youth 'culture' and most importantly thier peers.

Originally posted by mat1978
..you know I have kids, we met remember! (the peter pan songs!):thumbsup:

There ar eno simple answers, but for the 99.9% of well adjusted, well behaved kids you will find loving, caring parents who know exactly how to control thier kids. sorry mat,didnt know it was you,but the thing is your kids arent teenagers,in ten years time you will be as frustrated as the rest of us as to what people tell you you can do and not do to keep your kids under control

im having conflicts with my son now,he,s 14 and almost as tall as me but a hell of a lot fitter,he is at the stage where he must have the last word,where he regards his teachers as the gestapo,he is a teenage lad,we probably all went through the stage of having a go at the old man,i did,and lost.

what can you do to make them behave,? ive never hit mine but i have lifted him off the floor and sent him to bed,they laugh in your face and they know your hands are tied

Originally posted by depoix
sorry mat,didnt know it was you,but the thing is your kids arent teenagers,in ten years time you will be as frustrated as the rest of us as to what people tell you you can do and not do to keep your kids under control

im having conflicts with my son now,he,s 14 and almost as tall as me but a hell of a lot fitter,he is at the stage where he must have the last word,where he regards his teachers as the gestapo,he is a teenage lad,we probably all went through the stage of having a go at the old man,i did,and lost.

what can you do to make them behave,? ive never hit mine but i have lifted him off the floor and sent him to bed,they laugh in your face and they know your hands are tied

As i said above, I think if you do all you can to guide them the 'right' way they have the best chance. I bet your son doesnt go round smashing bus shelters and mugging other teenages though. I'm under no illusions - i know teenages are hard work -(hell i struggle noe with a 4 and 2 year old!)

Having worked with children with behavioural problems and their parents for 12 years, some of the things that I've found are:

The downside of the government's inclusion policy is that schools have to contend with a lot more disruptive behaviour than in the past. Students who might have attended smaller "approved" schools now have to attend large comprehensives that can't cater for their special needs.

The parents who are the most satisfied with their children's behaviour are those who are able to set firm boundaries, communicate clearly to their children how they expect them to behave, and genuinely praise and reward them when they hit the mark.

The parents who are the least able to do this are often the ones who have been frequently hit and demeaned by their own parents. They've been sapped of their confidence, or they try to over-compensate in trying to be less abusive, or both.

And if I remember rightly, when I was at school in the 70s, it was the same kids who were caned time after time. Didn't seem to be much of a deterrent.

Originally posted by mat1978
As i said above, I think if you do all you can to guide them the 'right' way they have the best chance. I bet your son doesnt go round smashing bus shelters and mugging other teenages though. I'm under no illusions - i know teenages are hard work -(hell i struggle noe with a 4 and 2 year old!) youre right he doesnt go round smashing things,hes a cadet and that takes up his spare time,in the summer i take him fishing or camping and rock climbing every weekend
i put a roof over his head,food in his belly and money in his pocket, but at 14 he is feeling his feet and trying to see how far he can go

the school has a lot to do with it,they have classes that tell them their childrens rights,to report their parents if they discipline them...the authorities have opened pandoras box and cant deal with it so they pass the responsibility / blame back to the parents...my mum never hit me but just a look of disaproval from her was enough to scare the pants of me,

its done me ok,ive never even had a parking ticket let alone been arrested,but that was because i knew if i did anything wrong i could expect a belting and not be able to do anything about it i truly hope your kids grow up to be great kids with loads of respect for you, i just dont know at times where i went wrong to deserve the disrespect i sometimes get from mine

and there's the tried and tested argument "it did us no harm".

How the hell do you know that you wouldn't have turned out to be an even better person if you hadn't been spanked?

Until someone does a proper study (a twin study to elliminate genetic differences) under controlled conditions (which is highly unlikely to ever happen) we can't have proof either way.
What we can do though is study the psychology at work and the difference in general large groups of children who have been brought up in different ways. The evidence so far tells us that smacking is not the best way to bring up a child.

What i don't disagree with though is that smacking (although bad) is better than no discipline at all, which is the problem that causes the children to grow up as hooligans.

As to teenagers breaking into cars, the guy failed as a parent a hell of a long time before the police brought them home that night. Discipline starts when a child is born, not when they break into a car.

I also disagree with your contention that 'power' has been taken away from parents. Only in the last few months has smacking too hard become against the law. So it's clearly not this law that's created 12 year olds breaking into cars, and it seems unlikely that it's a lack of corporal punishment at schools, otherwise we'd have seen it 30 years ago.

So it must be something else, and I believe (i say again) that the something else is a decline in good or even passable parenting. This is down to the parents, not the government and not the schools.

Originally posted by Cycleracer
my point is that your comments sound like they are coming from someone who does'nt have kids.
I did'nt say it was OK to use a cane and I never mentioned a strap.
I am just pointing out it did us no harm, however yes its not something I recommend these days but in my view a smack should be given if needed to put some discipline back into the child.
Shouting at them just causes high blood pressure for a parent and the child finds it funny.
BaBouncer basically said it all and all the power has been taken away from parents, teachers and the police.

If you spend enough time with your child from an early age, teaching acceptable behaviour, then one look, one word will let them know your displeasure.

I have three children. A boy 12, a girl 10 and another girl 3. My son is well-behaved most of the time and tries hard in school, pays attention. My daughter is well-behaved in school, but pushes her luck within the home and causes endless arguments. They were born into an unstable marriage which turned sour - and ended with a divorce.

I then spent three years caring for my disabled mother, and to be quite frank the children didn't receive the time and care that they needed.

My three year old has received all the love and care and attention that my older two didn't, and the difference is remarkable. She's secure, she knows when I'm pleased with her (pretty much all the time) and when I'm upset. The biggest factor is, she responds to me, not some child care assistant or nanny and I know how to react to her.

Yes, her father is around, even though I gave birth to her as an unmarried woman and we ended up getting married; my hubby wanted his rights as her father and she's such a delight, I don't blame him.

Originally posted by t020
But Cyclone, if smacking and corporal punishment are such bad methods of behavioural training, why weren't kids of a few decades ago as unruly and badly behaved as they are today?

I don't think that corporal punishment is the only way in which school education has changed.
We now have a National Curriculum as a "one size fits all" type education where a lot of emphasis is placed on academic success .
In the past children who were less academic were able to study for more vocational qualifications or be apprenticed to a trade.
Disruptive behaviour is likely to decrease when a child feels rewarded by his own success. Maybe there just aren't enough opportunities open to those children who aren't as academically gifted.

I work in the education and care system and I have very strong feelings about this.
The school I work in is an abomination, I have very few rights as a teacher and I am persistantly abused verbally by the students.Their behaviour is entirely ridiculous and the actual time spent teaching is lower than the time any of us spend attempting to control classes.
This is a third generation problem. As I've written before, someone I know works rather high up in the education system and statistically it is third gen, not just my opinion.
The current childbearing population is breeding juvenile nightmares and the government is making a rod for it's own back by protecting them.
I got slapped at school, no cane, just slapping. Once it happened, I never EVER crossed that teacher again. My parents slapped me, I've never been a troublecauser and I can relate it to the discipline I received. I had the normal teen trials of behaviour, thinking I was clever etc but my parents quickly sorted that.
My job would be easier if there was a decent discipline system, children are not concerned about punishment in schools, they know the law is on their side, there are no laws to protect teachers in the same light.
I think most parents would be absolutely astounded if they saw what their children really do. In an average class of 30, only 6 are consistantly well behaved.
Teachers will often not contact parents because they are part of the 'failed' generation and they do little or nothing about it, which actually makes the student worse.
The government needs to act quickly to support teachers and make the education system work, it used to work very well, until about 1970 - 1975 ish and it has steadily gone downhill ever since.
I could waffle about this all day, I just wish parents would take time to visit their kids schools and watch what really happens, its rarely as peachy as they think.

Furthermore, as an edit, I'd like to add that if those who were academic could get the education they want and deserve they would actually achieve more, rather than being held back by the vast majority of slackers. Schools, IMO should work in achievement groups and suit the timetable to the individual in order to help them develop into the adults they could be.
My classes would be heavenly if I only had the ones interested in my subject,they would all be able to use their skill to its limits and I know I have colleagues who feel the same way.
Most classes I see only manage to deliver 20 minutes of education, the rest is reprimand, settling time, constant registers due to increased truancy between lessons. A third of the time is spent learning, that's ridiculous!

Originally posted by stelps
I don't think that corporal punishment is the only way in which school education has changed.
We now have a National Curriculum as a "one size fits all" type education where a lot of emphasis is placed on academic success .
In the past children who were less academic were able to study for more vocational qualifications or be apprenticed to a trade.
Disruptive behaviour is likely to decrease when a child feels rewarded by his own success. Maybe there just aren't enough opportunities open to those children who aren't as academically gifted.

That's a good point and I do agree that there should be more vocational courses such as electrics, building, etc. Disruptive behaviour is definitely more prevalent amongst the under-achievers at school, but then you have to ask whether the chicken or the egg came first?

Zebra - an excellent post with well made points. Luckily when I was at school, most subjects up to GCSE level were streamed and so the disruptive kids were separated in the lower sets, unable to ruin the education of those with the ability and application. Beyond GCSE it isn't necessary because the people who stay on are there because they want to be there and are academically able enough to be there.

Awww those poor deprived kiddies

http://www.rotherhamtoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=85&ArticleID=935046

but some things have to suffer

http://www.rotherhamtoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=85&ArticleID=935049

As T020 says, are classes not streamed or split into sets or anything like that? They were when I was doing my national curriculum (first year ginuea pigs, certain subjects only).

It gives an interesting contrast to the experience of my sister-in-law who teaches Primary school children. It's rare that she has any problems, from listening to her talk most of the class are model students and the few others are easily controlled.
Probably down to the location of the respective schools.

As a teacher what would you say would be the moral basis for hitting or slapping a child Zebra? If you did that to an adult, even a disruptive argumentative or downright rude one, it would be assault. Does the person being a few years younger (and it can be just a few years can't it) make that different?

And what message is it sending to this child. Maybe next time they're in the playground and don't get their way they'll remember it and slap another child. Maybe a few years later they'll slap another adult and be up on assault charges?

Originally posted by Zebra
I work in the education and care system and I have very strong feelings about this.
The school I work in is an abomination, I have very few rights as a teacher and I am persistantly abused verbally by the students.Their behaviour is entirely ridiculous and the actual time spent teaching is lower than the time any of us spend attempting to control classes.
This is a third generation problem. As I've written before, someone I know works rather high up in the education system and statistically it is third gen, not just my opinion.
The current childbearing population is breeding juvenile nightmares and the government is making a rod for it's own back by protecting them.
I got slapped at school, no cane, just slapping. Once it happened, I never EVER crossed that teacher again. My parents slapped me, I've never been a troublecauser and I can relate it to the discipline I received. I had the normal teen trials of behaviour, thinking I was clever etc but my parents quickly sorted that.
My job would be easier if there was a decent discipline system, children are not concerned about punishment in schools, they know the law is on their side, there are no laws to protect teachers in the same light.
I think most parents would be absolutely astounded if they saw what their children really do. In an average class of 30, only 6 are consistantly well behaved.
Teachers will often not contact parents because they are part of the 'failed' generation and they do little or nothing about it, which actually makes the student worse.
The government needs to act quickly to support teachers and make the education system work, it used to work very well, until about 1970 - 1975 ish and it has steadily gone downhill ever since.
I could waffle about this all day, I just wish parents would take time to visit their kids schools and watch what really happens, its rarely as peachy as they think.

Furthermore, as an edit, I'd like to add that if those who were academic could get the education they want and deserve they would actually achieve more, rather than being held back by the vast majority of slackers. Schools, IMO should work in achievement groups and suit the timetable to the individual in order to help them develop into the adults they could be.
My classes would be heavenly if I only had the ones interested in my subject,they would all be able to use their skill to its limits and I know I have colleagues who feel the same way.
Most classes I see only manage to deliver 20 minutes of education, the rest is reprimand, settling time, constant registers due to increased truancy between lessons. A third of the time is spent learning, that's ridiculous!

I didn't suggest slapping them. I said I got slapped.
I do occasionally teach in primary/middle schools in addition to secondary and I agree that the behaviour is entirely different. I suspect this is because they are less aware of the laws of protection and have no teenage belligerance to back up their actions.
Peer pressure is less of an issue in lower school too. At secondary it isn't 'cool' to show interest or work hard. This apparently accounts for the drop in grades inherent to secondary education, particularly in lads.
I have no idea what the ideal method is, but there must be something to keep them toeing the line.
Though, many of the people I know who were educated before 1975 are less violent than those I know who were educated after. The court reports in the Star generally indicates the age of most names to be between 17 and 34 ish.
Furthermore, a government study into juvenile crime suggest sthat those who do not commit crimes by the age of 14 are not very likely to. This then brought on the advent of new organisations to target teen crime by grabbing them aged 11,12 and 13. So, there's a crossover in attitudes around that age I'd guess.
I'd be interested to hear about other peoples behaviour in schools and what made them behave/ misbehave.
The school I teach at most of the time is not streamlined. It is fully inclusive. I have students in my classes who have the same understanding/spelling/verbal of English as some 5 year olds. These are not ethnic minorities who are new to the country either.

Yes , there is a moral case for slapping kids in special circumstances.
No-one , surely would hesitate to use some physical violence to shove a child roughly out of the way of a runaway lorry.
If some sort of physical violence is useful in stopping kids damaging others and/or themselves , then the principle is exactly the same----using extreme measures to prevent a disastrous situation , in each case
It's just pointless to compare children with adults {"Would you think of slapping an adult ?"] , simply because adults generally don't behave like children , especially in a classroom setting. If adults scream abuse at people or threaten them or use violence , then they ARE in fact often subject to violence !
Children are , by definition immature , they lack experience , they often have little social sense and they often follow the strongest personality---for good or bad.Sometimes the cure for bad behaviour is corporal punishment.
Does it cause mental suffering ? Well , there seems to be more twitching neurotics walking round today than there used to be , from "the cane " regime and finally most children ,I think , would prefer a tough , physical adult regime because if that doesn't exist , then the Yobs and bullies fill the gap ; at least even the strictest teacher never went round stabbing kids or demanding their dinner-money !

Originally posted by Cyclone
As T020 says, are classes not streamed or split into sets or anything like that? They were when I was doing my national curriculum (first year ginuea pigs, certain subjects only).

Many classes are, but sometimes grouping all the bad students into one class is even worse. Some poor teacher still has to deal with them.

The middle management thinking is that if they put the good with the bad, the goodness will filter through to the bad kids. I'm sure that works on their planet.

Our school has something called a 'Focus Room' and is just like the set of Big Brother (minus the cameras). It's used to teach children social skills, such as how to sit for a meal and say please and thankyou. All things that should have been taught by the parents.

Each September we get a new influx of Y7 children and the number who can't read or write is increasing.

I went through school with no threat of corporal punishment, but strangley enough all the way through myself and my peer group worked hard and passed our exams.
There were bullies, kids not so bright, kids who were stupid and kids who were disruptive, but they were all controlled without being caned, slapped or physically punished in any other way.
The key to my trying hard at school was that my parents took an interest and were clearly pleased with me from a young age if I tried hard and/or did well. It all comes back to the attitude of the parents in most cases I expect.
The fact that most violence comes from the 17 - 34 age group is no suprise and not related to the way they were schooled, it's down to their age. Males aged 17 - 24 are the most likely group of our society to be involved in any violence, this is simply due to there age.

I'd disagree with the implication that splitting classes into streams by ability is any less inclusive than mixing the classes. Indeed I would expect that overall results for all streams would be better than mixed classes as in streamed classes the level of teaching can be better targetted to the ability of the students.
The idea that the bright children somehow drag the less inclined to learn (because native intelligence is rarely the issue) along is unproven and in my opinion unlikely to be correct. And if it were correct, it surely means that the brighter children are held back in the reverse of this osmotic intelligence transfer.

Originally posted by Zebra
I didn't suggest slapping them. I said I got slapped.
I do occasionally teach in primary/middle schools in addition to secondary and I agree that the behaviour is entirely different. I suspect this is because they are less aware of the laws of protection and have no teenage belligerance to back up their actions.
Peer pressure is less of an issue in lower school too. At secondary it isn't 'cool' to show interest or work hard. This apparently accounts for the drop in grades inherent to secondary education, particularly in lads.
I have no idea what the ideal method is, but there must be something to keep them toeing the line.
Though, many of the people I know who were educated before 1975 are less violent than those I know who were educated after. The court reports in the Star generally indicates the age of most names to be between 17 and 34 ish.
Furthermore, a government study into juvenile crime suggest sthat those who do not commit crimes by the age of 14 are not very likely to. This then brought on the advent of new organisations to target teen crime by grabbing them aged 11,12 and 13. So, there's a crossover in attitudes around that age I'd guess.
I'd be interested to hear about other peoples behaviour in schools and what made them behave/ misbehave.
The school I teach at most of the time is not streamlined. It is fully inclusive. I have students in my classes who have the same understanding/spelling/verbal of English as some 5 year olds. These are not ethnic minorities who are new to the country either.

bring in the brat camps!

I think that where alot of school's discipline policies fall down is that we don't have the backing from home. Realistically, the most we can do is detention, internal exclusion or a fixed term exclusion. It needs to be backed up by the parent or carer at home too.

Some of the kids I teach care not if they are excluded for a period of time, and some even see it as an extension to the holidays. Some kids, even when excluded, can't seem to stay away from school and hang around the school site.

But what is the answer?

Just yesterday, a year 7 pupil was abusive to me at lunch time and just walked out of school. Now, I'm not a teacher who is known as a pushover. I rang the office to get the kid's home number, so I could tell the parent exactly what had happened so they would get an immediate punishment (in theory), but quelle surprise... no home, work or mobile number has been provided to the school. Aside from issues of discipline, what would happen in an emergency?

It's stuff like this sometimes, that makes me wonder what I'm doing...

I am not making excuses for bad behaviour in school because there aren't any but perhaps schooling as we know it at the moment is just not relevant to many of todays children.

It's time we recognised that all children are different and not all have an academic ability and created learning opportunities to allow these children to find what they ARE good at and encourage them all the way.

In the bad (?) old days non academic kids were taught useful trades which enabled them to contribute to society in a useful way and make a living at the same time. This idea was done away with when the Labour Party thought that a one size fits all system ie comprehensive education was the better and more equal system.

Nothing is new though and now Chief Inspector of schools is recommending that we are failing the less academic children who should be offered an alternative.

The devil finds work for idle hands and until these disaffected kids see more relevance in what they are being taught I fear that they will continue to disrupt school life for everybody.

Originally posted by Mo
In the bad (?) old days non academic kids were taught useful trades which enabled them to contribute to society in a useful way and make a living at the same time. This idea was done away with when the Labour Party thought that a one size fits all system ie comprehensive education was the better and more equal system.

It's finally made a re-appearance, called "New Start". Our school started it in September and it's doing quite well. The only problem is that they're aren't enough businesses willing to take on kids.

A few kids are also unhappy at the longer hours of a business over a school, and the fact they're not getting paid.

Originally posted by alchresearch
It's finally made a re-appearance, called "New Start". Our school started it in September and it's doing quite well. The only problem is that they're aren't enough businesses willing to take on kids.

A few kids are also unhappy at the longer hours of a business over a school, and the fact they're not getting paid.

I don't believe that they should have to put in longer hours than they would at school, after all there are laws governing the number of hours a child can 'work'.

The idea of paying a child of school age to learn is ridiculous.

So the government are going to get tough on school kids that cause havoc due to yobs that plauge them.
Its at a record worse and schools are falling apart, teachers going home stressed and going sick.

Well. who's fault is it.

Not the kids, but the do gooders who banned corpral punishment and discipline.
They had it when I was at school and kept us in shape and respected our society.
Well its all comeback to haunt them now has'nt it.


Teacher's only see kid's as kid's so they dont allow them to decide or comment what need's doing is the school allowing the kid's to speak up (FREEDOM OF SPEACH)