News has ome about that Tony Blair had signed away our control of our Borders to Brussles.
Downing Street has been forced to admit that it had given away our right to cut the number of asylum seekers by signing up to a European Directive in March Last year.

This now means that we have more or less given Europe the power to tell us what we can and can't do with immigration or anything else that has anything else to do with our sovereignty regarding our borders.
What our fathers fought for in the 1st and 2nd world wars has been given.........without a shot being fired......

Yes it makes you sick to see Blair giving all our powers to Brussels,still what can you expect from the Labour party.
The next to go will be out right to set laws about employment,taxation,social security the list goes on and on.
We have to pull out of this nightmare before its too late,let us trade with our european partners and nothing more.

Does that mean that no matter who is in government it is Brussels who are in control, so if the Conservatives, or another party, got elected they couldn't change this ?

Well, as everyone is always complaining that the Government are corrupt and useless... bla bla bla... why would 'Brussles' do any worse of a job?

I thought that our fathers fought to stop Facists, and now people are voting for them without a shot being fired.

I think closer links between European countries can only be a good thing, and it must be better to all be working together to stop bogus asylum seekers rather than each country for itself.

Originally posted by royjames
Yes it makes you sick to see Blair giving all our powers to Brussels,still what can you expect from the Labour party.
The next to go will be out right to set laws about employment,taxation,social security the list goes on and on.
We have to pull out of this nightmare before its too late,let us trade with our european partners and nothing more.

Yes that's right, pull out of Europe yet continue to trade with it. Makes sense.

Anyone got a link for this story? the number of asylum seekers is going down anyway, so I'm not sure there's a real pressing need to cut the numbers. I know it's a political hot potato, as it gives the green light to those who just don't like 'darkies', but to me there are far more important issues to concentrate on: health, education, poverty... Why not have an election based on real issues rather than imaginary ones?

What the tory's have stated regarding limiting the number of immigrants etc is now deemed illegal by the EU....

Anyone can walk in here now without being challenged......We may as well all move out and let Europe have the lot....
I for one am making plans to leave and let them get on with it.
I am sure there are a lot of other people that have the same feelings.

Originally posted by nick2
Does that mean that no matter who is in government it is Brussels who are in control, so if the Conservatives, or another party, got elected they couldn't change this ? Yes!! no matter who's in charge here.........EU holds our future

Originally posted by Delboy3
I for one am making plans to leave and let them get on with it.
I am sure there are a lot of other people that have the same feelings.

If you all leave there will be room for the imigrants, it's a good plan.

Originally posted by royjames
We have to pull out of this nightmare before its too late,let us trade with our european partners and nothing more.

Can't stand them, but need their money?

Originally posted by Snook
Well, as everyone is always complaining that the Government are corrupt and useless... bla bla bla... why would 'Brussles' do any worse of a job?

I thought that our fathers fought to stop Facists, and now people are voting for them without a shot being fired.

I think closer links between European countries can only be a good thing, and it must be better to all be working together to stop bogus asylum seekers rather than each country for itself.
Our fathers fought for the freedom of the British people and our Land!!!!!
Not just against Fascists....

Originally posted by Delboy3
What our fathers fought for in the 1st and 2nd world wars has been given.........without a shot being fired......
I was under the impression that what our (well for me it's grandfathers) did in the world war was to stop racist fascist from taking over our country.

Basically keeping us as a democratic country rather than one ruled by a dictatorship. :confused:
So in actual fact what you're implying is that my grandfather fought for the right for us to decide our own immigration laws?

I think you'll find that my granfather fought for the right to stop racists (not all that dissimilar to certain BNP politicians) from making this world an unsafer place to live :D

Originally posted by DaBouncer
I was under the impression that what our (well for me it's grandfathers) did in the world war was to stop racist fascist from taking over our country.

Basically keeping us as a democratic country rather than one ruled by a dictatorship. :confused:
So in actual fact what you're implying is that my grandfather fought for the right for us to decide our own immigration laws?

I think you'll find that my granfather fought for the right to stop racists (not all that dissimilar to certain BNP politicians) from making this world an unsafer place to live :D
I didnt state that!!!! When you surrender your Borders to another power......You lose everything else..

Our fathers did not have to fight in the 2nd world war....IT was due to Poland being invaded that WE declared war on Germany.........
And as far as a dictatorship...What would you call Europe where all the People involved with Brussles have not been Voted in by the people and cannot be voted out by the people!!!!
Smacks of Dictatorship to me!!!!!
At least Europe can dow...DICTATE to us who we can let in our country and who we cant.
What you are saying is that we didnt fight for our country or our people.......We fought against Fascists..... I take it that we did the same against FRance, Spain, Argentina etc as well!

I think that what most of the British fighters of world war 1 and 2 were fighting to stop foriegn bodies from taking over there beloved home land.

And probably didnt give a rats arse about fascism.

What didn't you state??? :confused: I quoted you for a start :loopy:

Yes we declared war on Germany. Why? Because they invaded Poland. Why is that so important to us? Because they knew where this invasion policy of Hitler would lead - eventually we would have had to deal with it when Hitler invaded us.

jonsastar
fas·cism P Pronunciation Key (fshzm)
n.
often Fascism
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
Oppressive, dictatorial control.
That's exactly what they were fighting to prevent - read a history book.

Either way delboy the people in charge at brussels DO get voted for by our government, who votes for our government? we do.

Talk realistic or dont talk!

Originally posted by DaBouncer
What didn't you state??? :confused: I quoted you for a start :loopy:

Yes we declared war on Germany. Why? Because they invaded Poland. Why is that so important to us? Because they knew where this invasion policy of Hitler would lead - eventually we would have had to deal with it when Hitler invaded us.

jonsastar

That's exactly what they were fighting to prevent - read a history book.

Either way delboy the people in charge at brussels DO get voted for by our government, who votes for our government? we do.

Talk realistic or dont talk! And once they are in Europe........Brussels! How can you get them out????? you tell me ......!

Jonastar has the right answer! we fought for our homeland!

By the way! if our Government put them all in there! Why is it that they represent different parties.......Get real!

I've searched but can't find anything about this news story on the internet.

Delboy3, just wondering if this "we" who fought for our homeland in WW2 includes the many members of ethnic communities who helped both during the war and in its aftermath?

Nothing get’s my goat more then misplaced WWII analogies.

I really don’t see the point in talking about ‘Europe’ as if it was some neo fascist dictatorship. The policies of ‘Europe’ are decided by the people of Europe. I voted for an MEP to represent me, did you not get an opportunity?

What’s more the next country to hold presidency of the E.U. and therefore be planning the invasion of this fair land will be..........erm.............us.

curse my lack of computer skills.

Originally posted by DaBouncer
What didn't you state??? :confused: I quoted you for a start :loopy:

Yes we declared war on Germany. Why? Because they invaded Poland. Why is that so important to us? Because they knew where this invasion policy of Hitler would lead - eventually we would have had to deal with it when Hitler invaded us.

jonsastar

That's exactly what they were fighting to prevent - read a history book.

Either way delboy the people in charge at brussels DO get voted for by our government, who votes for our government? we do.

Talk realistic or dont talk!


I had already looked up fascism thanks bouncer.

What you are forgetting is that most of the fighters in these wars had left school at a young age and probably did not know the meaning of fascism, as it was pretty new to the world at the time and "fascism" would not have been thought of in those days as it is today.

They were not fighting fascism they were fighting for there parents there wives and there children, for there homes there country and for there lives.

Originally posted by jonsastar


They were not fighting fascism they were fighting for there parents there wives and there children, for there homes there country and for there lives.

If you read Churchill's speeches from the war a constant theme is anti-fascism and how it was the principle of freedom that drove Britain to fight. This became especially relevant as he tried to draw in the USA.

“If we stand up to him all Europe can be free...” being a good example.

Also don’t forget the role of the Left in WWII, people like Michael Foot knew very much about the realities of fascism and his writing was very influential.

Just look how popular Guilty Men by Cato was too see that many did identify this as a war against Fascism and Fascist appeasers. Think about the 45 election result and the popularity of the Mirror with the forces.

Originally posted by DaBouncer
What didn't you state??? :confused: I quoted you for a start :loopy:

Yes we declared war on Germany. Why? Because they invaded Poland. Why is that so important to us? Because they knew where this invasion policy of Hitler would lead - eventually we would have had to deal with it when Hitler invaded us.

jonsastar

That's exactly what they were fighting to prevent - read a history book.

Either way delboy the people in charge at brussels DO get voted for by our government, who votes for our government? we do.

Talk realistic or dont talk!

Firstly......WE did not fight against fascism.....WE fought to protect our country and our way of life as we have done over the past.
If you think that the British fought against fascism then you need a History lesson as THe British were Fascists themselves and Racial!!!!
When we ruled India and Southern Africa.....It was the British that did rule as dictators and Treated the local population of these countries in much the same way that Hitler treated those that he conquered.

If the Government Voted in the MP's that are sitting in Brussels....Why is it that MP's consist of different parties that are not part of the present Government.
Once they Do get into Brussels...If the present government loses the next election will you see the MP's from that party also lose their jobs????
Not likely!!! Once they are in.....They are in to stay!!!!

Oh! By the way...That is the reality of it.....

Originally posted by jonsastar
I had already looked up fascism thanks bouncer.

What you are forgetting is that most of the fighters in these wars had left school at a young age and probably did not know the meaning of fascism, as it was pretty new to the world at the time and "fascism" would not have been thought of in those days as it is today.

They were not fighting fascism they were fighting for there parents there wives and there children, for there homes there country and for there lives.
Just because at the time of the fighting it didn't have a name doesn't mean that's not the reason they were fighting.

We're getting off the topic anyway, the fact is if Tony Blair has relinquished control of our immigration laws to europe (which I doubt since he hasn't proved it) it is not what our grandfathers fought for during the war.

And even if they have relinquished control over the laws how does it negatively affect us? We still get to vote one way or the other the politicians who sit in Europe.

Originally posted by Delboy3
Firstly......WE did not fight against fascism.....WE fought to protect our country and our way of life as we have done over the past.
If you think that the British fought against fascism then you need a History lesson as THe British were Fascists themselves and Racial!!!!
When we ruled India and Southern Africa.....It was the British that did rule as dictators and Treated the local population of these countries in much the same way that Hitler treated those that he conquered.

If the Government Voted in the MP's that are sitting in Brussels....Why is it that MP's consist of different parties that are not part of the present Government.
Once they Do get into Brussels...If the present government loses the next election will you see the MP's from that party also lose their jobs????
Not likely!!! Once they are in.....They are in to stay!!!!

Oh! By the way...That is the reality of it.....
LMAO and you say I need a history lesson.

Crikey - get a life, prove your ramblings or do one!

Originally posted by Greenback
I've searched but can't find anything about this news story on the internet.

Delboy3, just wondering if this "we" who fought for our homeland in WW2 includes the many members of ethnic communities who helped both during the war and in its aftermath? Yes Indians, Gurkhas, .....I didnt start this thread to go racist!!!
Nor am I......I lived in Africa for 25 years....Without becoming racist....!

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
Nothing get’s my goat more then misplaced WWII analogies.

I really don’t see the point in talking about ‘Europe’ as if it was some neo fascist dictatorship. The policies of ‘Europe’ are decided by the people of Europe. I voted for an MEP to represent me, did you not get an opportunity?

What’s more the next country to hold presidency of the E.U. and therefore be planning the invasion of this fair land will be..........erm.............us.

Ha Ha ........Hope you don't rely on it too much you could get a dissapointment.

If you want to be ruled by Europe then so be it...I dont want to be so that is my opinion and as far as fighting against fascism..Again I ask! did we go to war against the French and other european countries because of fascism???

Originally posted by DaBouncer
LMAO and you say I need a history lesson.

Crikey - get a life, prove your ramblings or do one!
All i need to prove is that the Crusades did happen.....THat would make us fascists and racists.........Right or wrong???

Delboy, could you tell us where this news came from please, do you have any links?

I’m a bit confused are we being invaded?
I thought being in the EU meant French tourists can come here a lot easier not Napoleon. I fail to see how you can argue that being in the EU has made us anything but less likely to be invaded.

Originally posted by jonsastar
I think that what most of the British fighters of world war 1 and 2 were fighting to stop foriegn bodies from taking over there beloved home land.

And probably didnt give a rats arse about fascism. your right... but they had no other choice, they were not consulted, just told by letter to turn up at a training depot and train to fight for king and country..and what did they get out of it ? mass unemployment,hunger marches, it achieved sod all for your average bloke,sure the factory owners became richer as did the farmers, but poor old joe soap got sod all out of it, and still it goes on and on, every generation has had THEIR war, the rich get richer because of wars, but you dont see them on the front line. churchil even said that in the event of britain losing the war the only differance you would find would be a german police officer on duty instead of the british bobby

Originally posted by fyybj
Delboy, could you tell us where this news came from please, do you have any links?
Ok Headlines today Newspaper...THe Daily Mail...The Story covers 2 pages......If you want I will Type them in....
Jeeesh!!! I hope I hav'nt slept and this is April 1st!! OMG

Originally posted by Delboy3
Ok Headlines today Newspaper...THe Daily Mail...The Story covers 2 pages......If you want I will Type them in....
Jeeesh!!! I hope I hav'nt slept and this is April 1st!! OMG

Hmm, Daily Mail, anti Blair, anti Europe story. If there weren't stories like this in the Mail I'd think it was April 1st. :D

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
I’m a bit confused are we being invaded?
I thought being in the EU meant French tourists can come here a lot easier not Napoleon. I fail to see how you can argue that being in the EU has made us anything but less likely to be invaded.
Surely our sovereignty is important to us??
To have Borders that we control?

To be able to govern ourselves with our own rules and regulations?
Not to be dictated to what we can and cannot do?

I see all this as being British!!....Not European!

Originally posted by max
Hmm, Daily Mail, anti Blair, anti Europe story. If there weren't stories like this in the Mail I'd think it was April 1st. :D Surly the printing of such a story as fiction would be open to question!!

Is it that this story could be classed as untrue when infact if it were there would be an outcry from the Labour Government....!

THe EU are the ones that have apparantly confirmed this revelation so....Go from there!

Ahh the Daily Mail, well known for it's balanced reporting. And yes, I've the news report from numerous sources today, I was just interested in where you had read it and why you seem so panicked.

Thanks.

Originally posted by fyybj
Ahh the Daily Mail, well known for it's balanced reporting. And yes, I've the news report from numerous sources today, I was just interested in where you had read it and why you seem so panicked.

Thanks.
NOt panicked!! Just let down by the present government.....Where we have not been given any say as to our future!

Whilst Blair and his cronies sign away our country to the europeans!
Whats the point in having a government when we are being ruled by foreigners?

Another attempt to foment panic among the little englanders. The real news story is the wording of the referendum which this government is going to be holding sometime in 2006:

"Should the United Kingdom approve the treaty establishing a constitution for the European Union ?"

Bear in mind that the labour party is the only party willing to hold a referendum on the issue. So, rather than some faceless politicians signing away our rights, our borders, our traditions, our women, our beer and, dammit, our cricket we, the people, will get to have a say in whether or not we have a constitution.

Originally posted by max
Another attempt to foment panic among the little englanders. The real news story is the wording of the referendum which this government is going to be holding sometime in 2006:

"Should the United Kingdom approve the treaty establishing a constitution for the European Union ?"

Bear in mind that the labour party is the only party willing to hold a referendum on the issue. So, rather than some faceless politicians signing away our rights, our borders, our traditions, our women, our beer and, dammit, our cricket we, the people, will get to have a say in whether or not we have a constitution.
This has to be one of the best posts I've read in a long time - nice work max!

What we have to remember isthat it was the tory party that signed us up to the common market in the first place.
And it was the tory party that signed the mastricht treaty and so we dont ever want to fall for the tory trick of pretending to be the bullwark again.
We have to remember that ALL the main parties are pro europe and will sell this country down the road at every opportunity they get.

Originally posted by max
Another attempt to foment panic among the little englanders. The real news story is the wording of the referendum which this government is going to be holding sometime in 2006:

"Should the United Kingdom approve the treaty establishing a constitution for the European Union ?"

Bear in mind that the labour party is the only party willing to hold a referendum on the issue. So, rather than some faceless politicians signing away our rights, our borders, our traditions, our women, our beer and, dammit, our cricket we, the people, will get to have a say in whether or not we have a constitution.
Ha Ha...it states that the directive was already signed by Blair in March last year.....How can they promise us a referendum for this next year if they are not going to be in power then......And they have already signed us up!!!

Again...Labour spreads its lies!!!!

Blairs constitution is to become President of the EU...even if it means signing away all that we have!!!

Originally posted by Delboy3
Again...Labour spreads its lies!!!!
Yeah because we ALL know that The Daily Mail tell nothing but true stories :lol:

Excerpt from the paper...Yesterday the EU confirmed that Britain had given up any power to reduce asylum/immigration when it agreed a european directive last March Which made the matter EU LAW....

In 1997 Blair stated the Following.

There is no question of Britain giving up its veto on Border Controls....

He did Though!!!!!!!

Labour!!! The U turn party.........What they say is not what they do!

Originally posted by DaBouncer
Yeah because we ALL know that The Daily Mail tell nothing but true stories :lol:
And all the others do?????..

I dont see the PM in denial??

Mind you.....How many u turns has he done this year.....?

Originally posted by Delboy3
Ha Ha...it states that the directive was already signed by Blair in March last year.....How can they promise us a referendum for this next year if they are not going to be in power then......And they have already signed us up!!!

Again...Labour spreads its lies!!!!

When our prime minister signed the directive it was with the proviso that it would be subject to the result of a referendum. You really must not rely on one newspaper's spin on things.

Originally posted by max
When our prime minister signed the directive it was with the proviso that it would be subject to the result of a referendum. You really must not rely on one newspaper's spin on things.
I have lived under the spin of the Labour government since they got back into power...The first thing they promised was no increases in Taxation......Since then...My take home pay has remained more or less the same as I am taxed to death with all the stealth taxation that was introduced or made higher!.

The NHS was to be invested into heavily to get waiting lists down etc........Hospitals have closed, Waiting time figures have been fiddled.

Education: More schools, Better education and more teachers......In Sheffield, Quite a few Schools have closed....Teachers are still unavailable....The education system is in a bad state where kids are leavings school unable to read or write.......

Employment figures: Overall unemployment split into different carergories so that the reported unemployment figures are low....

Transport: Better public transport so that people wouldn't use their cars....
I don't see any incentive to use public transport as nothing has changed except the price of a ticket......

So! Labour has a constitution.......To what??? Lie? Make promises that they cannot deliver? Borrow money untill we are bankrupt like we nearly were after they were last in?

Ha......

Originally posted by Delboy3
I have lived under the spin of the Labour government since they got back into power...The first thing they promised was no increases in Taxation......Since then...My take home pay has remained more or less the same as I am taxed to death with all the stealth taxation that was introduced or made higher!.

The NHS was to be invested into heavily to get waiting lists down etc........Hospitals have closed, Waiting time figures have been fiddled.

Education: More schools, Better education and more teachers......In Sheffield, Quite a few Schools have closed....Teachers are still unavailable....The education system is in a bad state where kids are leavings school unable to read or write.......

Employment figures: Overall unemployment split into different carergories so that the reported unemployment figures are low....

Transport: Better public transport so that people wouldn't use their cars....
I don't see any incentive to use public transport as nothing has changed except the price of a ticket......

So! Labour has a constitution.......To what??? Lie? Make promises that they cannot deliver? Borrow money untill we are bankrupt like we nearly were after they were last in?

Ha......

Derek, this reads like a cut and paste from the tory press. Do you really believe all this? Have a look at this list which I posted about this time last year then tell me that labour doesn't keep it's promises:

Labour's achievements (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?postid=59897#post59897)

Max.....I am telling it like I see it......I dont need to read about it...
Are you trying to tell me that I am better off now than 7 years ago??

I am waiting for the next increase in NIC.....Or can you honestly tell me now that this will not be increased....
THe Council Tax.....Will this be increased at the level of inflation?? I doubt it!....

Motor Tax....Will this be increased again this year?

Fuel Tax.....Will there be an increase in this?

Increase in police numbers taking into consideration the numbers that are leaving for one reason or another?

Just a few questions if you could answer them with a straight answer... yes or no would suffice to most of them........

Your list is impressive...A lot of hogwash though!......SPIN.....The man on the street doesnt see any improvements.....Just more Taxation.

While were on the Subject...Can anyone else in the forum that has been working for longer than this government let me know if they have been better off in the last 7 years?

What with the removal of Mortage tax relief: Married mans allowance etc!

Originally posted by Delboy3
While were on the Subject...Can anyone else in the forum that has been working for longer than this government let me know if they have been better off in the last 7 years?

What with the removal of Mortage tax relief: Married mans allowance etc!
Yeah I like the fact I am secure of having a minimum wage to rely on should the need arrise.

Originally posted by Delboy3
Max.....I am telling it like I see it......I dont need to read about it...
Are you trying to tell me that I am better off now than 7 years ago??

I am waiting for the next increase in NIC.....Or can you honestly tell me now that this will not be increased....
THe Council Tax.....Will this be increased at the level of inflation?? I doubt it!....

Motor Tax....Will this be increased again this year?

Fuel Tax.....Will there be an increase in this?

Increase in police numbers taking into consideration the numbers that are leaving for one reason or another?

Just a few questions if you could answer them with a straight answer... yes or no would suffice to most of them........

Your list is impressive...A lot of hogwash though!......SPIN.....The man on the street doesnt see any improvements.....Just more Taxation.

While were on the Subject...Can anyone else in the forum that has been working for longer than this government let me know if they have been better off in the last 7 years?

What with the removal of Mortage tax relief: Married mans allowance etc!

Derek, whats your interest in all this. I thought you were going to live in Botswana?

The labour party have the interest of big buisness at heart,they dont give a toss about the ordinary man in the street.
New labour = same old bull.
I expect our prime minister will be going to war again soon with the states ,this time with Iran,what a leader we have a man who does as hes told by bush.
And on tax he has raised tax on just about everything,apart from income tax,stealth taxes are what is hiting the man in the street and I can se more coming after the election.

NEW LABOUR= MORE TAXES.

Originally posted by Phanerothyme
Derek, whats your interest in all this. I thought you were going to live in Botswana?
No you have it wrong..the thread was about where would you like to live...lol

I gave a few destinations.........However the one I am thinking about is Bulgaria....Thats another story lol

My interest is to get an answer from Max regarding what questions I have posted.......regarding Max's answers.
It also is not about me going away somewhere.......The questions are valid!

I am British and I pay taxes.....Nothing wrong in asking why or how much I will be paying.

However the thread is about the lies and deciet that we have to put up with!!!

New Labour are the bigest crooks in the country,god they are worse than the torries.
They dont have the interest of the working class at heart anymore,all they care about is buisness and the middle classes.
Still the stupid people still vote for them so nothing ever changes.

Phan...I hope that you are taking note!!!.

I do not get abusive or insult......... Unlike others that frequent this forum.

Asking Labour for a few truths should be a right.......
If my questions offend anyone or if any of my posts do the please let me know as at least that way...My questions are answered in one way or another!

Originally posted by DaBouncer
Yeah I like the fact I am secure of having a minimum wage to rely on should the need arrise.
Now there's a good subject...The minimum wage....

Wages have in the last 7 years gone up on average around the rate of inflation..
If you were on minimum wage last year you would have received an increace of around 2%.

The cost of electricity and gas has gone up lets say by around 13%.....in some cases more as we had 4 increases last year!
NIC went up 1%....
Council tax went up....well around 8%

Inflation went up 2%

If you can.....Just for last year calculate how much of an increase you actually received!

Originally posted by DaBouncer
Yeah I like the fact I am secure of having a minimum wage to rely on should the need arrise.
Now there's a good subject...The minimum wage....

Wages have in the last 7 years gone up on average around the rate of inflation..
If you were on minimum wage last year you would have received an increase of around 2%.

The cost of electricity and gas has gone up lets say by around 13%.....in some cases more as we had 4 increases last year!
NIC went up 1%....
Council tax went up....well around 8%

Inflation went up 2%

If you can.....Just for last year calculate how much of an increase you actually received!
Then tell me how much better off you are!

The Question was announced today about if we should join the Constitution or not.

"Should the United Kingdom approve the treaty establishing a constitution for the European Union?"

This is an experiment of sorts (and different to the poll evildrneil created back in November for all you search fans!) to see if our local result matches that of the full referendum or not.

Vote Away!

(PS. There is no option to view results so it doesnt bias your view)

As per usual.. questions to Labour go un answered!

Thanks for not bothering to answer any of the easy questions MAX........I do have my answers from the silence!

Your party is no better than the BNP or any other party that delivers lies and deciet.

Originally posted by royjames
New Labour are the bigest crooks in the country,god they are worse than the torries [...] Still the stupid people still vote for them so nothing ever changes.

11million stupid people? That's the number of British nationals who voted Labour in the last election. Castigating the electorate you're trying to attract isn't very clever politics...

Originally posted by Delboy3
Your party is no better than the BNP or any other party that delivers lies and deciet.
So you admit the BNP are nothing but a bunch of liars then.

Originally posted by royjames
What we have to remember isthat it was the tory party that signed us up to the common market in the first place.


No roy, what we have to remember is that there was a referedum on the issue and the majority of the population voted for it.

Yes, the government of the day was tory but that is irrelevant.

Nomme

I thought this post was about the EU constitution, and the merits thereof, not about Labour.

IMO the constitution is a good thing. What people like Delboy etc. have been writing is, to put it in a nutshell, balderdash. Why?

1) The "EU" doesn't decide anything, the member states and MEPs decide. There is always a UK minister present who can express his opinion and British MEPs too. You vote directly for your MEP and directly for the government in the UK. The people who decide in Brussels are elected. The Commision, who proposes, are nominated by elected governments and confirmed by elected MEPs.

2) There are 25 members of the EU. If you read the "Mail", you would think there are 2, the UK and "Europe".

3) The biggest steps towards integration in the history of the EU was the the Single European Act, signed by Margaret Thatcher (a Conservative), followed by the Maastricht treaty. This was signed by John Major (a Conservative).

4) It is impossible to leave "Europe". Europe is a continent, of whoich Britain is a part. It is, however, possible to leave the "European Union". The two are different. Please notice the difference.

5) Tony Blair signed the Constitution Treaty, but that doesn't mean that it has come into power. Treaties only come into power after (parliamentary or popular) ratification.

6) The Constitution Treaty sets out clearly the competencies of the different levels in the EU (what the member states do, what the EU level does).

7) The UK has not surrendered its borders. Travel from Germany to Holland or Belgium and you will not be stopped once. The border controls have been physically dismantled, there are only signs telling you you are in another country. Come to the UK and see border controls.

8) Sovereignty: What use is sovereignty if an environmental catastrophe in a neighbouring country damages you. By sharing sovereignty we also have a say about what happens in France, Germany, Belgium etc. And why doesn't anyone say we should leave NATO (US dictates our military policy) or the WTO, which regularly changes trade policy (albeit EU policy) and has not one iota of democratic legitimacy, (unlike the EU).

I think a little less hysteria would be good in this debate. Just because we are part of a union of free, democratic states who by their own free wills jointly believe that more can be achieved by acting together than acting individually (saves money, makes it easier for industry, has meant NO WAR between member states for 60 years) doesn't mean that we are not British. Are the French still French, the Italians still Italian? Do the Danes still eat smorgasbord and the Spanish still drink sangria? Of course they do.

If we want to change the EU, then we can only do it from within.

OK, back to the WW1 / WW2 analogies:

In WW1 we fought for a German monarch against the Germans who had a different German monarch.

In WW2 we fought for a German monarch against the Germans who had an elected Austrian leader.

What's different to now, well we still have a German monarchy but at least we aint fighting, holidays abroad are a lot easier, and we all get a vote.

Ahh for the good old days...

;)

Originally posted by foo_fighter
OK, back to the WW1 / WW2 analogies:

In WW1 we fought for a German monarch against the Germans who had a different German monarch.

In WW2 we fought for a German monarch against the Germans who had an elected Austrian leader.

What's different to now, well we still have a German monarchy but at least we aint fighting, holidays abroad are a lot easier, and we all get a vote.

Ahh for the good old days...

;)

You're absolutely right. Look here (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&postid=259198&highlight=george+III#post259198)

Only 8 votes? Come on people, this is supposed to give a good reflection/comparison of the real thing. Surely the real referendum won't be subject to this degree of voter apathy?

what is the problem with people? They expect the earth but don't think they should pay for it. You want better services you pay more taxes. Simple. The government does not control how your council spends their council tax.

The European Constitution is no different to the situation now

The Labout Government have given the UK a stable economy, greater investment, less unemployment, more home owners, better benefits etc etc,

I remember the Thatcher years, privatisation, repossesion and economy collapse, marked racism and hitting out at Europe.

People expect the earth nowardays and should stop whinging all the time about how bad it is. YOU HAVE NEVER HAD IT SO GOOD.

I will vote when I have some conception of the pros and cons of the issue and how it is likely to affect me and the rest of the people in Britain.


Until then I'd like to hear the arguments from both sides.


Nomme

We live in an inter-dependent world. The European Union will still exist even if we're not in it. We'll still have trading partners there, we'll still be affected by their policies on EVERYTHING - agriculture, immigration, economics, everything! Except we will not have a voice at the table. We'll be able to shout all we like about how we've got our soveriegnty, but the idea of sovereignty is eroding in the modern world. We don't have soveriegnty over a lot of things - our economy depends on other countries economies, for example.

Lets get stuck in to Europe and make it work for us! It can be a good thing for this great country.

Originally posted by Disco_Cat
If you read Churchill's speeches from the war a constant theme is anti-fascism and how it was the principle of freedom that drove Britain to fight. This became especially relevant as he tried to draw in the USA.



On the few sites I have looked up (Churchill and fascism) there is several mentions of Chuchill admiring Mussilinis fascism , and also that if he was an Italian he would no doubt have been a black shirt.

Somebody needs to explain what it is that it means before we can make an effective decision

yes, there is no reason not to. It just puts how the EU works today down on paper.

I being into politics have a idea what it entails but the vast majority of the public who maybe dont share my interest dont know what its all about.
We need to have a good open debate on the issues so everyone can make an informed choise one way or the other.
This is in my opinion another example of the creaping federalism which wont be stopped now and so its best we withdraw and leave them to it.
I voted no.

I dont know enough about it to vote either way.

To be realistic you need to explain more what we are voting for, other wise its just another uneducated vote for somthing that no one knows about.

I saw the question in the paper a day or so ago and it immediately struk me that withouth a HUGE education process (which no-one will believe is impartial!) then it will be an exercise in pointlessness as only a minority of the will actually know what the EU constitution lays out! I have a passing interest in politics and I don't know what is layed out in the constitution...

Originally posted by royjames
I being into politics have a idea what it entails but the vast majority of the public who maybe dont share my interest dont know what its all about.
We need to have a good open debate on the issues so everyone can make an informed choise one way or the other.
This is in my opinion another example of the creaping federalism which wont be stopped now and so its best we withdraw and leave them to it.
I voted no.

If there were to be a good open debate about the benefits, or otherwise, of signing up to an EU constitution what are the chances of you changing your mind? Would you carry on voting no despite having no idea of what it entails?

Just interested to know what arguments would persuade.

Ihave a good idea what it entails and no I will still vote against it,I want us out of the E U anyway.
But it is like the issue of the single currency that also does not get good open debate,and until all these issues get debated properly then the voters wont have a clue.

Originally posted by max
If there were to be a good open debate about the benefits, or otherwise, of signing up to an EU constitution what are the chances of you changing your mind? Would you carry on voting no despite having no idea of what it entails?

Just interested to know what arguments would persuade.


If there were to be a good, open debate about the disadvantages, or otherwise, of signing up to an EU constitution, what are the chances of you changing your mind? Would you carry on voting yes despite having no idea of what it entails?

Just interested to know what arguments would persuade.

The question should simply be "Do you want the United Kingdom to stay in the EU", yes or no? And it should be asked now, not in another 18 months

A good summary of what it says is :here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2950276.stm)

And the full text is here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/21_07_04cg00086.en04.pdf)

If the football fans at Real Madrid all get a copy and every household in Denmark gets posted a copy, then so should the Brits.

BTW to mods: There is another thread "Labour signed away orders to Europe" which is about the same topic, even if the title is biased. Maybe the threads could be merged?

According to The Telegraph, a YouGov poll shows that votes for NO currently outnumber YES votes by almost 2 to 1 (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/29/neu29.xml). Also, a poll on Teletext had a 99% NO vote from almost 4,000 callers. It therefore surprises me that this poll is currently a "YES".... although the memberbase of this forum does seem predominantly left leaning and liberal.

Originally posted by t020
According to The Telegraph, a YouGov poll shows that votes for NO currently outnumber YES votes by almost 2 to 1 (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/29/neu29.xml). Also, a poll on Teletext had a 99% NO vote from almost 4,000 callers. It therefore surprises me that this poll is currently a "YES".... although the member base of this forum does seem predominantly left leaning and liberal.

I think equally you will not get a true result from readers of the Telegraph or people who would take the time to vote on something from teletext.

Originally posted by t020
According to The Telegraph, a YouGov poll shows that votes for NO currently outnumber YES votes by almost 2 to 1 (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/29/neu29.xml). Also, a poll on Teletext had a 99% NO vote from almost 4,000 callers. It therefore surprises me that this poll is currently a "YES".... although the memberbase of this forum does seem predominantly left leaning and liberal.

Teletext? If it was up to the people who vote on those polls, we have brought back hanging a long time ago.

In schools.

Having said that, I think a 'No' vote in the real thing is inevitable, sadly for our economy.

Originally posted by t020
If there were to be a good, open debate about the disadvantages, or otherwise, of signing up to an EU constitution, what are the chances of you changing your mind? Would you carry on voting yes despite having no idea of what it entails?

Just interested to know what arguments would persuade.

An assumption too far, I have yet to be persuaded one way or another.

PS With my mod hat on: After several requests I have merged 2 similar threads.

What will happen if the Dutch or French reject this in their referenda?

Will there still be a constitution to have a referendum on?

This constitution is simply another example of the ruleing classes trying to dictate to the people what they should do.
I say sod the elite, vote no and retain what little powers we have left to the voters of the UK
The best course of action is to leave europe then you will see who sinks and swims,we will swim the rest will sink.

Originally posted by Lickszz
What will happen if the Dutch or French reject this in their referenda?

Will there be still a constitution to have a referendum on?

I heard that Blair probably won't bother if they both reject it (which I believe is likely).

lol great signature to20,spot on.