Do people think the lib dems are a viable alternative to labour and will you consider voting for them at the next election?
All those on the left must surely have considerd leaving labour and going over to the lib dems,after all they are the only MAIN party who opposed the iraq war.
And is Charles Kennedy the right man for the job?

You should clarify whether you are referring to Council elections or the General Election.

Sorry about that I meant the general election.

Here I am in another thread going on about taxation and you start this one!!!
Lib Dems policy is to raise taxation......Jeeeesh...If they ever got in I would be working for a take home pay of around 50p an hour......The rest would be paid in taxes!!

The Lib Dems are a perfectly viable party - I don't really see that they should be considered as an 'alternative to Labour' any more than the Conservatives should be seen as an alternative to Labour! What the Lib Dems do offer is a party who can assess and react to events on their merits rather than being blinded by a particular ideology.

I think that those reply "no" are usually oblivious to any policies that the lib dems actually hold and just make assumptions on this basis

I dont ever agree with the lib dems but at least charles kennedy is consistent .
I hope that we have a hung parliment,then the lib dems can push through P R which will help the smaller parties,you see they have there uses.:thumbsup:

If you mean could the lib dems form a government then the answer is no.

The experience we had here of the few years when they had control show what a divided party they are.

They have extremely nice sounding policies but they know that they will never have to deliver on them.

Plus, what they say in one part of the country is often as not contradicted in another.

I'm afraid divided parties and contradictory statements is an accusation that could be levelled at any party - the new labour / old labour schism; the followers of Blair vs the followers of Brown; europhiles vs eurosceptics in the conservative party etc. etc. etc.

The Lib Dems aren't supposed to be a rival of Labour - they rival both parties and from what I remember, they have been more succesful in gaining traditionally Conservative seats (Sheffield Hallam being an obvious example) than gaining Labour seats.

Seems to me the lib dems are certainly a bigger threat to labour than the tories,I think they hope to get the ethnic vote to move over to them from labour due to the Iraq war.
This if it happens will certainlly damage the labour party far more than the tories.

I don't think either the Lib-dems or the Tories can rival Labour at the moment. The Lib-dems are so wishy-washy, and too pro-Europe. As for the Tories, who'd want to vote for a party headed by Michael Howard? :loopy:

no, I think they would destroy the country as they may have good intentions but no idea how to go about doing them. Also their spending plans are unworkable.

But to say that Charles Kennedy couldn't organise a drink-up in a brewery would be most wrong. The man may not look good in a yellow tie but boy he'd be top-tastic down the pub. especially if he was on parliamentary expenses.

Having condemned the Lib Dems to running partner status doesn't take away, however, from the fact that even Basil Brush would make an attractive alternative to the creeping terror of New Labour's bully boys and girls or the creeping horror of the current Tory beauty pageant.

Let's engineer a nice hung parliament where nobody has enogh majority to push anything through and nothing gets done for four or five years. Britain will get along just dandy without intervention from politicians.

The Lib Dem attitude to , ahem, "progressive" taxation is nearer in spirit to the old style socialist Labour Party than it is to the European social democratic style New Labour. New Labour are bad enough, and have milked the middle classes dry , often by stealth. The Lib Dems are an even more dangerous animal. Far from being what my fellow poster drevilneil [whose contributions I always enjoy] calls, "a viable party", they are the people most likely to tax us to the very hilt, open the gates to even greater numbers of unregulated, illegal immigrants, and cave in under pressure.

Had the Lib Dems been in office at the time of the Falklands crisis, they would have, in common parlace, "bottled it". Can anyone really take them seriously as a "party of government"? Kennedy is no statesman. With his sardonic air [the Scots call this tedious trait "pawkiness], and his cheap suits he looks every inch the little man kicking at the big mens' heels. In fact, that is a good metaphor for his party too. They are full of twee little ideas, like old Pantsdown's [in his day as "leader" of this set of twonks] idea of a penny on income tax to go towards education. How terribly clever.

This ex-pat Sheffielder has seen for himself how the Lib Dems have allowed Southport, once a genteel Victorian resort, to become down-at-heel, and so dangerous in the town centre in the evening that people prefer a night out in Liverpool. Ye Gods! From the Lib Dems, Oh Lord Protect Us!

I dont think they are a real alternative.

I have not decided yet who I shall vote for.

I think the tories need a good charismatic female to stand up and bring some power back to the party.

Maybe I shall volunteer!!

Espadrille,
As a card-carrying Tory, I demand that you give us a sight of yourself re your suggestion of standing as a figure of charismatic authority. Even a tantalising description would do...

Originally posted by timo
Espadrille,
As a card-carrying Tory, I demand that you give us a sight of yourself re your suggestion of standing as a figure of charismatic authority. Even a tantalising description would do...

I was beginning to think I was the only card-carrying Tory who used this Forum Timo! Good to know there's someone else, go blue team!

Originally posted by JonJParr
go blue team!

Regretfully I agree. But only so we can get ghastly Tony out in the landslide fashion he managed to arrive into power himself. If you really are a Tory however, you'll find you have to vote for the Blairfuhrer. He's the one with all the right-wing policies.

Our Lord Protector and his Roundheads may have borrowed much from conservative philosophy. Indeed, it may be said that he stole the Tories' clothes as they were bathing. However, scratch the surface, and beneath Blair's acceptance of a market economy, brakes on Union power, and the fact that most Britons live a [relatively] privatised, Middle class lifestyle, there lies a fundamental philosophical gulf. Conservatives usually [unless they are of the American Neo-Con variety], do not believe in utopian panaceas, international idealism or "the goodness of human nature".

Blair is at heart a rather self-righteous interventionist. He and his wretched party of whey-faced poltroons believe in the "Big State", in nannying and hectoring the masses. They court the middle classes , but at heart treat us with contempt. He and his party have no regard for tradition, and he even has the ignorance and audacity to call Britain, "a young country".

The whole "Third Way" idea was cooked up by Anthony Giddens [famous in Sociology for his ludicrous, convoluted "Structuration theory", which adds nothing to the sum of human knowledge or happiness], and is strongly influenced by the Communitarian philosophy of Amitai Etzioni. It is regarded as a magical bridge between "caring" Old Labour and the neo-liberalism of previous, recent conservative administrations. In theory it empowers communities to act responsibly, to reach consensus and to, if necessary, police themselves. It is meant to be a form of "caring" capitalism, acknowledging the "defeat" of socialism, and the "victory" of Western capitalism, whilst maintaining a collectivist belief in the "welfare safety-net" for the needy. In reality, it translates as a dressed-up form of persecuting the middle classes, with nasty, sneaky, punitive forms of taxation etc. Blair and his gang don't want us to get rich, any more than his predecessors like Foot, Callaghan and Wilson did.

The Lib Dems are a bit too liberal for me i'm afraid. If they got in power we'd have criminals walking the streets, terrorists bombing us whenever they liked and every tom dick and harry flooding into the country from all over the world.

As for the tories, how can anyone from South Yorkshire vote for them after the way they treated us in the 70's, 80's and early 90's? They laid waste to our jobs, industry and lives.

Originally posted by nez75
The Lib Dems are a bit too liberal for me i'm afraid. If they got in power we'd have criminals walking the streets, terrorists bombing us whenever they liked and every tom dick and harry flooding into the country from all over the world.


I must have missed that part of the lib dem manifesto.

Do people not understand that if you are not for extending powers to lock people up without trial and for deporting all foreginers because they "look a bit funny" then you are automatically in favour of letting criminals get away with whatever they like and having no immigration controls at all.

There is a middle way, and the labour and tories certainly do not offer that middle way.

The Lib Dems are crippling the city of York. I have never read (daily) of such incompetence. Their transport policies are much worse than Sheffield's. There have been many cases of long established (private) businesses in York going bust due to the Lib Dems overzealous policies on double-yellow lines, doubling car parking fees and even increasing parking permits up to £80 per household (yet stating this does not guarantee a space).

They then introduced all night parking charges which used to be free from 6pm. Result: nobody coming into town after evening, various clubs which used to meet and could park on a single yellow line no longer come into town as it's too expensive and inconvenient to do so. For a lot of old folk, this could be the choice to go to church, or an art class which formerly cost just the monthly subs, but which, when the parking fees were introduced became too expensive.

The Lib Dems in York STILL insist it is not their problem, it's the motorist's fault (as always). (They have their own free car parks by the way.) Their latest ploy is the best of the lot. They've spent £18,000 sending out questionnaires stating what rate of Council Tax you would like to pay next year. It states three rates, the lowest being an increase of 5%, the highest, 10%. It didn't give a 'None of the above' option, though many responded by spoiling the cards by writing it on them before they returned them.

Guess what? It's going to be a 5% increase but the residents were warned that this rate of increase would mean service cuts etc. So now, they've got the perfect Get Out Clause. Whenever there are going to be cuts in services (Flood Defence being one of them - can you believe that in York!) all they have to say is 'You were warned'. They've stopped handing out plastic bin liners to residents who live in streets where it would be inconvenient to have wheelie bins. The saving? £15,000.

If they were true businessmen they wouldn't last two minutes. If they're like this on a local level, then you can imagine what harm they could do nationally. Interesting to read they've done similar damage in Southport. They are truly a puppet party.

Mr Howard, as always, will get my vote. Mr Kennedy seems more suited to Have I Got News For You.

Originally posted by timo
Blair is at heart a rather self-righteous interventionist. He and his wretched party of whey-faced poltroons believe in the "Big State"
Blair and his gang don't want us to get rich, any more than his predecessors like Foot, Callaghan and Wilson did.

True indeed. But I don't see much in Tory policy that gladdens the heart either. However, for the first time I find myself staring down the barrels of a Tory vote, just to stop Tony's third-term slide into full-scale despotism. I, unlike he, have learnt the lessons of history and his shift from desire to make the UK a better place to compulsive need to see everything, tax everything and control everything is frighteningly similar to mad Maggie's. Only he's been rather quicker about it.

"wretched party of whey-faced poltroons." Marvellous, sir! I'm sure I've read that somewhere but tis brilliant!

Joyphil,
Thankyou for your kind words. I am glad that my vituperation caused pleasure.

Ousetunes,
Yours is a first rate posting re the appalling Lib Dems. I can assure you that they are leading Southport folk ["Sandgrounders"] a merry dance. We have the likes of the posturing ninny, John Pugh here. That in itself is bad enough. However, waiting in the wings [quite literally] is Lord Ronnie Fearn, famous locally as a Pantomime Dame and severe pain in the sub-navel region. He is largely to blame for the rapid decline of this once charming town, over the last ten years. Tourists have a terrible time of it with Sefton Council's parking policies. Finding somewhere to park is terribly difficult, and the traffic wardens [ ex- members of Himmler's Totenkopfeverbande] make life hellish for anyone who dares to try. Unfortunately, Pugh, Lord Fearn and the rest of the party have smarmed their way into the hearts of the local pensioners [who make up a large part of the population], with their offers of free lifts to polling stations and nice cups of tea etc. They will be in charge for the forseeable future. Damn their eyes!

Maybe we ought to form the Sheffield Forum party!

We cannot do any worse!

Or the Sheffield Forum Shakespearian speak revival party. "Damn their eyes indeed sir, for they art blackguards one and all."

"Forsooth sire, art one still allowed to say blackguards? Tis fitter and more meet to expostulate with breath 'guards of colour', is't not?"

Exeunt...

Ihave to say you 2 tories do make your points of view with flair and intelegence,I wish you both well .
I may even start a thread about the tory party then you will feel real at home.:thumbsup:

Originally posted by timo
Had the Lib Dems been in office at the time of the Falklands crisis, they would have, in common parlace, "bottled it".

Out of interest how do you know this? Do you assume that because they had the guts to stand up for their morals rather than meekly going along with Bair in his charge into stupidity that they are incapable of acting when the situation demands?

Can anyone really take them seriously as a "party of government"?

Most certainly - I can see them as a party of government rather more than the current shambles that masquerades at the tory party! Their main problem is the large number of people who vote for a party solely because they have always voted for them and don't seem to notice that the Labour party is now the conservative party and the conservative party are now a pantomime!

For a while now I've been of the opinion that no single party can provide a comprehensive solution. Margaret Thatcher's "conviction politics" sowed a seed of destruction - not limited to Conservative Party politics - that still infects the way that important decisions are made now. One of the positive things about the Lib Dems (and I think many of the criticisms aired in previous posts accurately point to their 'immaturity' in terms of their ability to make consistent, pragmatic decisions) is their push towards power-sharing and a more consensual, negotiated way of running the country.

Ok, that's definitely enough Bacardi for tonight :wink:

Originally posted by chillicat
One of the positive things about the Lib Dems (and I think many of the criticisms aired in previous posts accurately point to their 'immaturity' in terms of their ability to make consistent, pragmatic decisions) is their push towards power-sharing and a more consensual, negotiated way of running the country.

I think thats the way politics is running - politicians though needing insight have to become more flexible and adaptable and the lack of ideology becomes even more of a bonus!

What you need to do to understand what the people want is
1.Sit down and think
2.Think about what standards you yourself expect in life.
3.Use your own experience and think if you were an MP, how would you improve things to make a real difference to peoples lives.

Heres how I think it should be

1.People are sick and tired of 2nd best in this country.
No matter what service you try to get, it is always unacceptable,either shoddy workmanship of people being unreliable.
This applies in all walks of life.Take estate agents for example.
The NHS is also an example.
When people work all their lives and pay in to a system, they sort of expect that they are going to get a really good service in return.
After all, they have worked really hard for it.
Take the pensions fiasco.
I have worked since I was 16.I am now 43.
I am still working but I have had to have a private pension as I know that when I retire, it is unlikely there will be anything left.But where has all the money gone to that I have paid in over the last 25 years.?
Can any of our local politicians answer that?
I doubt it.
If a private company has mismanaged the funds so badly,would they be brought to task.
i think so.
Take the schools fiasco

There are so many kids today in school who are autistic and do not get the support that they deserve to help them get on in life.
I have 2 kids( one with Aspergers and epilepsy).The level of support that is required is not really available within the state system.
I would have to pay 6k a year to send him to a private school, and even then,he may not pass the entrance exam and would not go there on principle.

Take the yob culture fiasco.
Do police ever get training on why people actually offend in the first place and look at ways of prevention?
I am unsure.
Please, if there are any police on the forum, please let us know.

1st time buyers cannot get on to the property ladder anymore.
Stamp duty must be brought in line with property prices.

Taxes, well that is a big one and it is difficult to say without having the figures.
I say that if there is waste, then efficiency and time management is the key and whether that means putting up taxes, keeping them the same or reducing them, well that is a matter for discussionand can only be decided when you have all the facts.

On the Euro

again, the public do not have all the facts.
A poll this am on Sky News said that 25% of people are unsure whether to vote for the european constitution. I am also without the hard facts.The same applies to the euro.
We are not told excatly what it all entails.
It is a bit like mushroom management..well you know the saying..

These are a few of the things that matter to me.
I am unsure as to which political party all of that fits in to.
That is why it is so hard to choose.

Originally posted by joyphil
Or the Sheffield Forum Shakespearian speak revival party. "Damn their eyes indeed sir, for they art blackguards one and all."

"Forsooth sire, art one still allowed to say blackguards? Tis fitter and more meet to expostulate with breath 'guards of colour', is't not?"

Exeunt...

Can you frame that so I can put it on my bedroom wall?

evildrneil,
How do I know that the Lib Dems would have, in common parlance, "bottled it" at the time of the Falklands crisis, had they been in office? Because the party has, like Blair's Roundheads, a contempt for the idea of empire. The Falklands, I imagine, would have been meekly handed over to the Argentinians, possibly with an apology . I remember Ashdown at the time [of course, I realise this is before the existence of the Lib Dems proper] voicing "concerns" about the legitimacy of Britain's claim to the Islands.

Re the Lib Dem stance against the war in Iraq, as a paleo-conservative [a reluctant collectivist], I too share misgivings about this costly case of international idealism and interventionism. There is something to be said for [in the spirit of Burke and Lord Salisbury] Britain calculating foreign policy in terms of national interest, and not meddling in the affairs of other countries. However, there is a difference between the philosophy of Burke and Salisbury and that of the Lib Dems. Conservatives can be relied upon to defend British interests with military force if necessary, and sometimes it is necessary. Can the Lib Dems be so relied upon? I do not think that they can. There are so many pacifists in the party, and people who think "dialogue" will work in all circumstances, that they cannot be trusted to defend our country. Can you imagine the posturing Kennedy as a leader in time of war?

Re the "pantomime" Tories. Well, at least we don't dress up as Widow T****y for real, unlike the sublimely-fatuous Lord Fearn! To be serious, yes, the Tories are not up to scratch yet. However, we in Conservative Democratic Alliance are doing our best to combat the social liberalism of the likes of Letwin, and putting pressure on the party to return to the right of centre. We will be back. Mock us at your peril.

Go Timo! Go Timo! Go Timo!

Further to my earlier posting regarding the city of York, the Lib Dems and a certain patronising leader called Steve Galloway, the local press The Yorkshire Eveing News recently lead on the number of CCTV cameras that were found to not be working in the city centre.

Someone who had been attacked asked why the authorities could not trace the scum that had kicked him in. Answer was that unfortunately, the CCTV was 'down'.

Now the Lib Dems have attacked the Evening Press for pointing out which cameras were not working and thus drawing attention to would-be muggers and Burberry Cap Wearers where the best places are to carry out their misdeeds!! Excuse me, but who exactly is to blame?

Like I've said elsewhere, another case of blame anyone but the council. Yes, blame the press!

(And for your information, all the cameras have since been repaired. Seems the Evening Press is better at getting things done than the loony Libbies, eh?)

Thankyou Ousetunes! You may join the League of Timo Loyalists. Do not fear, dear heart, one day our respective towns [a fine city in your case] will be rid of the yellow plague of Lib Demdom. Until then, it is our sacred duty to persecute them at every turn, pelting them with eggs, snapping their revolting pipes and ripping their anoraks. Conservative direct action!