Can anybody date this picture? (http://www.maths.soton.ac.uk/staff/Dewynne/sheffield.html)

It's taken from the hill overlooking Park Square roundabout and looking up into town.

Please don't just state a date - tell us why. Like 'the buses were that colour until 19XX' or 'that building was demolished in 19XX'.

Thanks

Late 70s/ early 80s I'd guess from the cars.

Whenever it was it seemed to look better then! Much greener. I thought the centre was supposed to be improving?!

Originally posted by t020
Late 70s/ early 80s I'd guess from the cars.

Whenever it was it seemed to look better then! Much greener. I thought the centre was supposed to be improving?!

It was all built to Le Corbusier's Utopian plan - he didn't design it, but his influence is very evident.

People would all have their own roomy, airy space to inhabit, with a private outdoor space to see the sky - even if they shared a building with 2000 other people. Ameneties would be accessible, environmental impact was considered (Park Hill was on the CHP). Pedestrians and vehicles would not need to compete for space, they would cross each other effortlessly. Green spaces would be brought into cities.

For the people who had previously inhabited the back-to-back slums, sixties Sheffield was the model for a new Britain.

It's a shame that scum spoil these ideals.

Subways are for mugging.
Footbridges are for hurling missiles at cars.
Concrete is for spraypainting.
Flats' lifts are for *cough*.
Balconies are for throwing TVs over.

Need I go on?

Yeah, I'd say early eighties by the cars, and the colour of the bus.

Originally posted by t020
Late 70s/ early 80s I'd guess from the cars.
Originally posted by Snook
Yeah, I'd say early eighties by the cars, and the colour of the bus.
Can anybody narrow it down more?

Originally posted by t020
Late 70s/ early 80s I'd guess from the cars.

Whenever it was it seemed to look better then! Much greener. I thought the centre was supposed to be improving?!

I agree, it looks quite nice. Oh, and look at the traffic, I wonder if that was rush hour? :D

I'd say around 1983/1984, that's when those Layland's were first introduced; it looks pretty new.

Alex

I'd go for early to mid 80s, Pond's Forge isn't there on the pic, that opened in '90 I think. The colour of the bus rules out the late 80s.
Does anyone know what the blue 'circus tent' is behind the canal wharf buildings?

Great post strix, you are bob on.

It's very sad that the utopian plans never really translated into reality.

This is what they removed to build it and the new Sheaf Market (http://www.picturesheffield.co.uk/cgi-bin/hpac.pl?_cgifunction=form&_layout=picturesheffield&keyval=sheff.id=2129)

Now are we beginning to understand the significance (in history and architecture) of Park Hill flats?

Originally posted by segasonic
I'd go for early to mid 80s, Pond's Forge isn't there on the pic, that opened in '90 I think. The colour of the bus rules out the late 80s.
Does anyone know what the blue 'circus tent' is behind the canal wharf buildings?
It's not a gas tank then?

Not a silver car in sight (thank god! Silver is crap and overrated and impossible to find your car in any car park these days if it's silver!) so it must be around the mid 80's I'd have said, but I was still toddling around on a tricycle then so who knows!

Originally posted by babygem
Not a silver car in sight (thank god! Silver is crap and overrated and impossible to find your car in any car park these days if it's silver!) so it must be around the mid 80's I'd have said, but I was still toddling around on a tricycle then so who knows!

Me too. The cars are all bright and primary colours. Not a metallic in sight.

See how modern and clean the flats look (http://www.picturesheffield.co.uk/cgi-bin/hpac.pl?_cgifunction=form&_layout=picturesheffield&keyval=sheff.id=6459) against this industrial backdrop?

I wasn't even born.

Alex

Originally posted by Strix
See how modern and clean the flats look (http://www.picturesheffield.co.uk/cgi-bin/hpac.pl?_cgifunction=form&_layout=picturesheffield&keyval=sheff.id=6459) against this industrial backdrop?


Don't get me wrong, I think the flats looked and still look awful and should be demolished. But to see the Park Hill roundabout that green and free flowing is a shock to me because, with the way it is now and has been since I could remember, it's unimaginable.

Originally posted by Strix
It's not a gas tank then?

I wouldn't say so, you can see the 2 gas tanks up towards Hillsborough about halfway along the skyline, just below the hills. This thing looks to me like a blue circus tent, it's on the right of the pic about halfway down, next to the canal wharf. I'm just curious as to what it could be, as the area was pretty much derelict in those days.

Originally posted by Strix
See how modern and clean the flats look (http://www.picturesheffield.co.uk/cgi-bin/hpac.pl?_cgifunction=form&_layout=picturesheffield&keyval=sheff.id=6459) against this industrial backdrop?

I think they still look good now. I think they are interesting to look at... sure, they need a bit of cleaning and looking after, but there is so much bland architecture out there at the moment.

Originally posted by Snook
I think they still look good now. I think they are interesting to look at... sure, they need a bit of cleaning and looking after, but there is so much bland architecture out there at the moment.

I only noticed a couple of months ago, that the different levels are constucted of different coloured bricks! This is probably contributing to their dingy look though. They're darker near the bottom than the top.

They probably looked stunning when they were new (before they got grimy)

Originally posted by segasonic
I wouldn't say so, you can see the 2 gas tanks up towards Hillsborough about halfway along the skyline, just below the hills. This thing looks to me like a blue circus tent, it's on the right of the pic about halfway down, next to the canal wharf. I'm just curious as to what it could be, as the area was pretty much derelict in those days.
Does this map provide any clues? (http://jfatherton.0catch.com/sheffield/maps/shef1903s.jpg) Although it's probably too old (1903)

Originally posted by Strix
I only noticed a couple of months ago, that the different levels are constucted of different coloured bricks! This is probably contributing to their dingy look though. They're darker near the bottom than the top.

They probably looked stunning when they were new (before they got grimy)

Yep, this is a good picture to show how the colour changes.

http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=189526

Originally posted by Strix
Does this map provide any clues? (http://jfatherton.0catch.com/sheffield/maps/shef1903s.jpg) Although it's probably too old (1903)

The map is interesting :D
Hasn't given much away though, it looks like Park Square roundabout didn't exist back then and the canal basin is off the map. Could be my eyes though, I've had a couple of beers ;)
On a related note, a friend of mine told me that when he was little (he's in his mid-40s now), there was a market that ran right down Dixon Lane and onto Park Square, which also had shops on it at the time. Hard to believe nowadays!

Originally posted by Strix
Does this map provide any clues? (http://jfatherton.0catch.com/sheffield/maps/shef1903s.jpg) Although it's probably too old (1903)

Interesting to see that Ponds Forge wasn't actually where Ponds Forge is now... that seems to have been Electric Light Works... wonder why they didn't call it that?:)

I think this map stops just before, or around, the spot where the blue tent was doesn't it?

Go back to the previous page, Segasonic, and look at the hyperlink that says 'this is what it replaced'. You'll see those shops and market.

Are you familiar with www.Picturesheffield.com? Loads more pics to be found on there :thumbsup:

Good pic, Snook. See any similarities? (http://gbcdata.artifice.com/gbc/images/cid_2464522.jpg) It's a Le Corbusier original.

PS. Good site too, Snook! It's added to favourites :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Snook
Interesting to see that Ponds Forge wasn't actually where Ponds Forge is now... that seems to have been Electric Light Works... wonder why they didn't call it that?:)

I think this map stops just before, or around, the spot where the blue tent was doesn't it?

I think the new pond's forge building occupies both sites. Isn't the entrance arch still standing? Did the forge take over the electric site before the forge itself met it's demise?

Isn't the blue tent about where smithfield market is marked on the map? Across the basin is a steel works. Was that still there at the time of the postcard?

Yeah, very similar, but I think I prefer the look of Park Hill.

That site is useful... with lots of interesting facts... :)

Park Hill Flats is the largest listed building in Europe. It consists of four blocks 13, 10, 9 and 7 stories, linked at various levels. The entire complex contains 995 residential units, as well as shops and civic amenities.
- The complex was often referred to as 'streets in the sky', mainly because there were decks stretching across each block. From ground level up, the 'streets' were called The Pavement, Gilbert Row, Hague Row, Long Henry Row and Norwich Row.
- Park Hill Flats formed Part One of the Park Hill scheme. Part Two, also known as the Hyde Park Flats, was built on an adjacent site.
- The thinking behind Park Hill was heavily influenced by Le Corbusier's Unité d`Habitation in Marseilles. Unlike its French counterpart, Park Hill has remained a social housing complex.

I think we should be proud to have Europe's largest listed building! :D Is it true that the balconies were made wide enough to get a milk float down... I'm sure I read that somewhere... maybe I'm going crazy.

Originally posted by Strix
I think the new pond's forge building occupies both sites. Isn't the entrance arch still standing? Did the forge take over the electric site before the forge itself met it's demise?

Isn't the blue tent about where smithfield market is marked on the map? Across the basin is a steel works. Was that still there at the time of the postcard?

Well, I did think it might be about where the trough is, but I find it hard to tell on that map.

Originally posted by Strix
Go back to the previous page, Segasonic, and look at the hyperlink that says 'this is what it replaced'. You'll see those shops and market.

Are you familiar with www.Picturesheffield.com? Loads more pics to be found on there :thumbsup:


Ah so that pic is actually on the area of Park Square? Thanks for that, I've always wanted to see what it was like! PictureSheffield is ace, but it hasn't given me any pics of the Hyde Park dog track so far :( What an interesting little area of Sheffield!

The Pond's Forge entrance archway is indeed still standing, it's opposite the Queen's Head pub. I don't recall there being a steelworks near the canal wharf as long as I've been in Sheffield, could be wrong though...

Originally posted by Snook
Well, I did think it might be about where the trough is, but I find it hard to tell on that map.

This map is a little older (http://www.yourmapsonline.org.uk/maps_for_web/yorkshire/MapSheffield1890.JPG) but covers a larger area

Originally posted by segasonic
Does anyone know what the blue 'circus tent' is behind the canal wharf buildings?

In the '80's, I used to work for one of the major banks and they used to hold ballet shows in a tent on the car park, and I wonder if thats what it is.

Interesting thread. My brother (41) and myself (35) have had a good look but are struggling to decide on one year. However, we are sure on two points: a) it's definitely NOT the 1970s; it definitely IS the 1980s. We reckon around 1986.

My brother has a decent knowledge on years that particular models of cars and vans were released. In the foreground, I'm informed the Transit Van points more to the mid 80s and I'd agree. Furthermore, the red Fiesta is also a mid 80s model. The buses, still part of SYPTE would correspond here.

Looking up Commercial Street towards town, on the right, what is now Number 1 buffet used to be a nightclub. When I used to go there, Christmas 1986 to Christmas 1987, it was Al-E-Cats and I don't recall it having a red name on the front (the red is clearly identifiable); When my bro went pre 1986, he says it did have the red frontage and was called Bloomers. Other correspondents may recall this?

Also noticeable is that the Canal Basin is years away from any improvement. I remember going down there in 1988 to take photographs of its run down state. I think development commenced a year or two later as did Ponds Forge in time for the (deep breath) World Student Games, held in 1991.

Finally, it's sunny!!!!

I believe that it's between June 6th and June 7th 1985. If you look behind the double decker bus there's a yellow pick up truck, and on the inside of that is a blue car. I think that in the blue car is my Aunt Nora who drove onto the roundabout at 9.22 a.m on the 6th, got onto the inside lane and panicked. As there were no traffic lights on the roundabout then she was unable to stop, and wasn't confident enough to get back onto an outside lane. She just drove round and round until she ran out of petrol at 11.46 on the 7th. This day was her birthday and at the time she ran out of petrol the family were driving alongside her singing "happy birthday to you" and trying to pass her a piece of cake through the window. That's my guess of the date anyway.

Originally posted by pitsmoorlad
I believe that it's between June 6th and June 7th 1985. If you look behind the double decker bus there's a yellow pick up truck, and on the inside of that is a blue car. I think that in the blue car is my Aunt Nora who drove onto the roundabout at 9.22 a.m on the 6th, got onto the inside lane and panicked. As there were no traffic lights on the roundabout then she was unable to stop, and wasn't confident enough to get back onto an outside lane. She just drove round and round until she ran out of petrol at 11.46 on the 7th. This day was her birthday and at the time she ran out of petrol the family were driving alongside her singing "happy birthday to you" and trying to pass her a piece of cake through the window. That's my guess of the date anyway.

Whilst obviously I'm inclined to believe you, afterall, it's a highly likely scenario, one fact in your 'story' is wrong.

See, there ARE traffic lights on that roundabout. Now if it was'n for that minor error.....,

Originally posted by Ousetunes
Whilst obviously I'm inclined to believe you, afterall, it's a highly likely scenario, one fact in your 'story' is wrong.

See, there ARE traffic lights on that roundabout. Now if it was'n for that minor error.....,

Sorry, my mistake, I missed out the word "working" with reference to the traffic lights. You see the lights were there but due to an administration error they were stuck on amber. This resulted in a mixture of queues and free flowing traffic, (with the inside lane being free flowing all the time), adding to my Aunt's confusion. Plus the fact that she'd lived for 20 years in a commune on the Isle of Snark, just off the Shetland coast, where you could drive your ox and cart on either side of the road. Hope this clarifies the situation.

I think the clue is in the traffic lights. This picture was taken after the introduction of the traffic light system, can anybody remember when that was? I passed my test in 1981 and I never drove on the roundabout without traffic lights.

Originally posted by pitsmoorlad
Sorry, my mistake, I missed out the word "working" with reference to the traffic lights. You see the lights were there but due to an administration error they were stuck on amber. This resulted in a mixture of queues and free flowing traffic, (with the inside lane being free flowing all the time), adding to my Aunt's confusion. Plus the fact that she'd lived for 20 years in a commune on the Isle of Snark, just off the Shetland coast, where you could drive your ox and cart on either side of the road. Hope this clarifies the situation.

I'm amazed you didn't notice the Blue Whale taking a nap in the Canal Basin. This was before all the industrial waste polluted the water, so by my reckoning, and a quick phonecall to my history teacher, we reckon the picture dates to 1659. Whadyathink pitsmoorlad?

An interesting theory Oustunes but I rather think that Amber wasn't added to the traffic light sequence until March 1664, as part of Ye Olde Highways Act. In fact right up to 1673 some outlying areas still had the old colour sequence of Red, Green and Stand n Deliver.
As for the "Blue Whale" in the canal basin, this was infact an oversized tadpole which had grown to that size due to being fed titbits by the passing youngsters. As nature lovers will know, beyond a certain size tadpoles cannot turn into frogs, so it was decided to keep feeding it in order to keep it as a huge tadpole. After all a 30 ft 160 ton frog could cause a lot of damage hopping about town. I'll be happy to discuss this further once I've topped up my medication.

Amusing as this all is... I was more interested in the history of Sheffield city centre :-)

No matter how horrible Park Hill might look, just be thankfull we haven't got this building :

http://www.maths.soton.ac.uk/staff/Dewynne/sheep2.html

what on EARTH is that!!

It seems to be a Buffalo!x

Originally posted by christine
Amusing as this all is... I was more interested in the history of Sheffield city centre :-)

Now I'm hurt Christine, I thought that my Aunt being stuck on the roundabout for 2 days was an intrinsic part of Shefield City Centre's history. Some thought it an historical moment, others thought hysterical.

Originally posted by pitsmoorlad
Now I'm hurt Christine, I thought that my Aunt being stuck on the roundabout for 2 days was an intrinsic part of Shefield City Centre's history. Some thought it an historical moment, others thought hysterical.

Yes, pitsmoorlad, it's understandable. Christine, I've still got the Sheffield Star which details the events of that day with pitsmoorlad's poor old Aunt sat in the car on the pick up truck shown on the front page. And, although it's on chunky Phillips video tape (which is bigger than the actual size of today's DVD Player) I can lend you the tape of when pitsmoorlad's Aunt appeared on That's Life.

She were a character! But she should have put her teeth in, or borrowed some of Esther's!!

Ha ha ha!! Ok ok I'm sorry, I believe you. Is she still with us - perhaps we could do a "20 years on - the truth behind the steering column" special?

Did she have to take anti-nausea drugs afterwards?

Off topic, but from the same site is this pic of Basildon:

http://www.maths.soton.ac.uk/staff/Dewynne/basildon.html

You'd have thought they could have got a picture without a central figure scratching his bum! :o

Nomme

Meanwhile back in the real world.

Todays view.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/wharncliffe/ParkHill004.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/wharncliffe/ParkHill005.jpg

Originally posted by nomme
Off topic, but from the same site is this pic of Basildon:

http://www.maths.soton.ac.uk/staff/Dewynne/basildon.html

You'd have thought they could have got a picture without a central figure scratching his bum! :o

Nomme


LOL - thats great.

Owd Pitsmoorlad could well be near right on date. Judging by the cars, anyway. the Mk2 Fiesta Festival places it at post 1984. The SD1 Rover beside it is a late 70s machine, but in that sort of nick can be no more than 6 or so years old. There's what looks like a Cavalier Mk2 Convertible there, but in an odd respray. That's a 1986-88 car. And quite what that red 1980-on Metro with the vinyl roof is doing still alive by about 1986 is a total mystery. The only wild card I can spot is what looks like a Volvo 760 near the Transit van and Rover. According to my info that's a 1988 car or later.

The old lady confusion thing isn't totally unheard of. My darling great aunt Olive Fisher once sallied forth in her Escort from her Wath on Dearne home to visit friends in Penrith. She decided to stop and check the map when she saw a sign for St Albans. Great woman nonetheless. Inspiring English teacher to generations and an avid fan of Gordons gin. She shared my birthday and I miss her. So my daughter Olivia is named for her. Only hope daughter's navigational skills are better than hers. And her driving generally, for that matter...

I'm saying 1983.

Why? Well, on the left of the picture is the site of the old Ponds Forge. It's been recently demolished and there was a brief period when it was a car park - like on the picture.

I remember this because my grand-dad took me into town to buy a Return of the Jedi model (the ship with the folding wings that the Emperor arrives at the Death Star on!) and we parked there and walked to Redgates.

Do I win? :)

Originally posted by Vanbast
I think the clue is in the traffic lights. This picture was taken after the introduction of the traffic light system, can anybody remember when that was? I passed my test in 1981 and I never drove on the roundabout without traffic lights.

You mean, in the oldern days traffic lights didn't exist? :o

Alex

Originally posted by amhudson119
You mean, in the oldern days traffic lights didn't exist? :o

Alex

In the very olden days they used to have a man stood in the middle of each junction with 3 flags, a red, orange, (the colour amber hadn't been invented then) and green. Of course in them days brakes hadn't been invented either so there was always someone new at the junctions each week. Eeee you don't know yer born these days.

Is that when Mars Bars cost 8 pence and penny chews cost a penny? Mind you, don't they still cost a penny before VAT?

That picture is almost certainly of october 1986, I got some free tickets to that circus and took my kid there. The only circus in Sheffield I went to, wasn't that good either come to think of it .

Kelvin Flats are visible in the background. Can anyone recall when they were demolished?

I think the blue tent is the circus Big Top, i seem to remember that the Billy Smart one use to set up down that way.

Isn't there a publishers date on the back of the postcard?

Originally posted by Don_Kiddick
Isn't there a publishers date on the back of the postcard?

Well if you can turn it over and read it DK, we'll all be put out of our misery :rolleyes:

If you look at where it's displayed on the web, I don't think the originator has much real interest in it. The site's about crap postcards :D and there isn't a 'contact us' button.

Ahhhhh I see!! I thought you'd scanned it yourself !
:D D'oh!

It must be late in the 80s. The factory buildings that Ponds Forge swimming pool is named after (the Forge belonging to Mr Pond) weren't demolished until they had actually decided to build the swimming pool. If Ponds Forge opened in 1991 for the Games (or was it late in 1990?) and the poll took, say, three years to build that would make the pic some time in 1987??

Well I reckon it's 1985. The reasons:

1. Buses were de-regulated in '86 and painted red/cream. See here for bus colour with date. (http://www.sheffnet.co.uk/photos/default.asp?pid=120&loc=26)
2. Ponds Forge contruction was started in '88 and the land will have had to be cleared before that which will have taken a few months at the very least. It's clearly still a car park in the pic. Info here. (http://www.ponds-forge.co.uk/info%20architectural%20and%20building%20spec.htm)

Summer '85 in fact :)

Originally posted by rinty
Well I reckon it's 1985. The reasons:

1. Buses were de-regulated in '86 and painted red/cream. See here for bus colour with date. (http://www.sheffnet.co.uk/photos/default.asp?pid=120&loc=26)
2. Ponds Forge contruction was started in '88 and the land will have had to be cleared before that which will have taken a few months at the very least. It's clearly still a car park in the pic. Info here. (http://www.ponds-forge.co.uk/info%20architectural%20and%20building%20spec.htm)

I'd totally and utterly forgotten about those red/cream/brown buses! Didn't they look horrible? I just thought that they'd gone from the coffee and cream into the whole deregulated mess that we have today. So, good link Rinty.

As for Ponds Forge. I went to Sheaf Valley in July 1988 and that must have been the last time I went. If Ponds Forge was constructed in that year it must have been late as they had to knock down SVBaths first. I remember that, and reckon 1989 would be more likely (but what do I know?).

I'm going for late 1986 for the picture due to what I've already stated in my earlier post and the person who stated that he/she went to the Circus that can be seen behind the Canal Basin. It somehow FEELS like it's 1986 to me!

Well it's late spring/summer looking at the sunlight and greenery, so I think you're too late :)

Now I could be out here, but I recall going to college on yellow/red Mainline buses, and I was at college from '86-'88, which is another factor in my thinking on the date.

Bloody annoying not actually knowing the date :confused:

Originally posted by Ousetunes
If Ponds Forge was constructed in that year it must have been late as they had to knock down SVBaths first.

Sheaf Valley Baths were nearer the Railway Station than Ponds Forge. They knocked the old forge buildings down first (and found a huge anvil thing in there that they couldn't move!), built Ponds Forger and then knocked Sheaf Valley baths down.

MrHelicopter - thanks, that will explain why I thought Sheaf Valley baths were still in situ well into the 1990s! I was quite dad to see the baths demolished and frankly, looking at the picture of Park Sqaure roundabout compared to today, I think it looked nicer before Supertram.

I also note in the 1980s picture that it doesn't seem to be too busy although the Broad Street car-park is full.