im sure there has been sum great matches over the years at sheff wed
But just wonderd wot was the best football played at hillsborough in my opinion it was under big RON ATKINSON!!
WOT DO YOU THINK??

two seasons ago blades under lord warnock

two seasons ago blades under lord warnock

The question was about football at Hillsborough, not about when United last strung 2 wins together.

The question was about football at Hillsborough, not about when United last strung 2 wins together.

and the answer was about the question , no mention of 2 wins.:loopy:

For me personally I'd say the promotion season with Sturrock. This is mainly because I'm too young to remember properly the football under Ron Atkinson and I didn't start going to games every week until about 2000. This was because before then I was too young to go on my own or with mates and it was to expensive for my dad to take me, him and my sister.

and the answer was about the question , no mention of 2 wins.:loopy:

Did my answer go over your head?

The 1990 to 1993 era.

It might have gone over alex's head but it would never clear your's FS :)

just not biteing ,happy with my original comment thanks fred .best football at swillsbro played by the blades.

Stop being a tit alex and let them discuss

just not biteing ,happy with my original comment thanks fred .best football at swillsbro played by the blades.

I'm sure that inept display by your lot over what was arguabley our worst team for many years does rank amongst the best you blades have ever played, Hillsborough or not.

But having attended matches for over 20 years I can tell you that it ranks nowhere near the best football I've ever seen at Hillsborough. :D

And it's Frank not Fred. :)

I'm sure that inept display by your lot over what was arguabley our worst team for many years does rank amongst the best you blades have ever played, Hillsborough or not.

But having attended matches for over 20 years I can tell you that it ranks nowhere near the best football I've ever seen at Hillsborough. :D

And it's Frank not Fred. :)

appology frank , thought id seen fred in another thread

two seasons ago blades under lord warnock


When did warnock ever get blades playing good attractive football?
From what I can remember it was just fully commited and die for every ball, not good passing enjoyable football to watch.
Best football at hillsborough was when Ron Atkinson was in charge.

croatia played r8 well when they beat denmark in in euro 96 cant remember manager but that suker goal over schmicheal(sp) was different gravy weird sat with all the danes when i was clapping the goal (bitta cheering to it was the manuturd keeper):D

francis era, by a long way.

croatia played r8 well when they beat denmark in in euro 96 cant remember manager but that suker goal over schmicheal(sp) was different gravy weird sat with all the danes when i was clapping the goal (bitta cheering to it was the manuturd keeper):D

I was at that game, right behind Schmiecals goal. And the BBC decided that Sukers scored was so good that they put it on the titles of their Euro 96 program.

And you could see me (minus large paper mache head) jumping up to celebrate even before the ball has gone in.

Waddle's first season - no doubt. I feel like, and sometimes dance like Madonna, whenever I think of that 5-1 v West Ham.

And to think, as a treat for the first time, my ol' Daddy had shelled out for us to sit in the south stand; which of course was ours/Waddle's right wing as we attacked the Kop. :love:

That treat would seem more of a penance these days. :roll:

francis era, by a long way.

It was good until he started replacing good footballers (prematurely in some cases) ; with mediocre journeymen.

Certainly not towards the end of ihis spell; like when Forest took us apart and won 7-1.

The last brilliance I recollect was when Paolo Di Canio ripped the Manure to shreds, during Big Ron's second spell; but consistency was sadly lacking by then and the away performances were awful.

The 92/93 season was the best season of football i've ever seen at Hillsborough. Although nothing was won, some of the league performances (West Ham thrashing) & cup displays (Blackburn away & Leicester home) were superb. Waddle was magnificent & the transformation of Warhurst as a striker will be remembered in Owls folklore!
Waddle, Hirst, Bright,Palmer, Wilsom & Sheridan were a perfect balance!
I remember the last game of the season & 9 players were rested for the cup & we thrashed Southampton 5-1 with the reserve side!!, just shows what confidence brings!!
The Kaiserslautern home game, has there ever been a better atmosphere at Hillsborough.

DiCanio put in some wonderfully outrageous performances too, what a showman!, pity we didn't look after him, but Dave Richards had his eye on top FA job! w*nker :).

The 92/93 season was the best season of football i've ever seen at Hillsborough. Although nothing was won, some of the league performances (West Ham thrashing) & cup displays (Blackburn away & Leicester home) were superb. Waddle was magnificent & the transformation of Warhurst as a striker will be remembered in Owls folklore!
Waddle, Hirst, Bright,Palmer, Wilsom & Sheridan were a perfect balance!
I remember the last game of the season & 9 players were rested for the cup & we thrashed Southampton 5-1 with the reserve side!!, just shows what confidence brings!!
The Kaiserslautern home game, has there ever been a better atmosphere at Hillsborough.

DiCanio put in some wonderfully outrageous performances too, what a showman!, pity we didn't look after him, but Dave Richards had his eye on top FA job! w*nker :).

Didn't we go on a 27 game unbeaten run that season, ultimately finishing third?

Didn't we go on a 27 game unbeaten run that season, ultimately finishing third?

some wednesday fan.:huh::help: anyway a blade will help you out ,wednesday finished 7th in the league and runners up in both cup finals and i think anyone will say what a wonderfull season that was for the owls.

The best football ive seen so far in the years ive been goin to S6, was the team that Big Ron put together, the likes of King, Harkes, Nilsson & Pearson... well worth the ticket money.

In my view TF did Nowt, he didnt build a better team than the one he was left with from RA, and TF split up that team too soon...

I'm in total agreement madowl.

True, but TF was brought in by RA to take over & he brought Waddle in & created Warhurst the forward which was inspirational, i mean, oh, i'l stick a centre half upfront & he'll score goals for fun!
The 90/91,91/92 team were a good team, but the tinkering after, like Bright for Williams did the biz for me personaly.
Pleat split that team!

True, but TF was brought in by RA to take over & he brought Waddle in & created Warhurst the forward which was inspirational, i mean, oh, i'l stick a centre half upfront & he'll score goals for fun!
The 90/91,91/92 team were a good team, but the tinkering after, like Bright for Williams did the biz for me personaly.
Pleat split that team!

YEP i got to agree with you Waddle was great for owls , as for warhurst ill never forget the goals he scored i always thought he could play for england the only down side that i could remember was Chris woods thought he was a well dodgy keeper for owls!

oh the good times where did they go:hihi:

The best football ive seen so far in the years ive been goin to S6, was the team that Big Ron put together, the likes of King, Harkes, Nilsson & Pearson... well worth the ticket money.

In my view TF did Nowt, he didnt build a better team than the one he was left with from RA, and TF split up that team too soon...


didnt atkinson get us relegated with that great team. then fracis got promotion and eventually finished third in the, now, premier league. either francis was a better manager because he acheived more with "atkinsons" team or francis built a better team. he bought the likes of des walker and chris waddle. bart williams and warhurst. mark bright was also part of the success. he also managed to pursuade people like andy sinton to join the club when he could have gone to arsenal. okay sinton was poor but he still prefered us.

there is no question francis was the better manager. 2 cup finals several semi's, european football, mad owl you are indeed mad:hihi:

didnt atkinson get us relegated with that great team. then fracis got promotion and eventually finished third in the, now, premier league. either francis was a better manager because he acheived more with "atkinsons" team or francis built a better team. he bought the likes of des walker and chris waddle. bart williams and warhurst. mark bright was also part of the success. he also managed to pursuade people like andy sinton to join the club when he could have gone to arsenal. okay sinton was poor but he still prefered us.

there is no question francis was the better manager. 2 cup finals several semi's, european football, mad owl you are indeed mad:hihi:

ron got relegated yes but he took us back up and we won the league cup the last team outside the top flight to do so he left b4 the start of the next season then trick took over

ron should have stayed and imo would have done a better job than francis

i will never forgive ron for leaving after saying "i have the best job in football" i was a young lad at the time working for the owls F.I.T.C. richie barker and ron had a big big argument just b4 ron walked outta the door (judas)

putting Warhurst up front was indeed a master stroke.

However , he then attempted to repat the process by putting Bart-Williams up there .

Then after a decent strike at Middlesbro he decided he could do the same with Palmer.

Dear, dear.

Francis's man management skills (along with Warhurst's reputed attitude issue) were a problem. Allegedly:- The first player ever to have to be persuaded to play in a cup final, when reluctantly asked to revert back to defence, to cover the injury crisis!

Francis used his contacts well to bring in the likes of Chris Wadle; vut he got rid of the competent, experienced players (he inherited from Ron) too quickly; replacing them with the likes of Klassless Klas, Pearce, and Ian Nolan ; who were average.

I know I'm always banging on about Harkes going and being replaced by Sinton. But by eck. The lad was on £600 a week and had just been promoted, won the league Cup and got to two Cup finals.
Was it too much to ask for a decent deal.

And as for telling him and Shirtliff tpo get back down the tunnel on officla photocall day becasue he didnt want them on the picture of 'his squad'.
Well thats just terrible man management.
Its a testament to their proffesionalism that they still gave it their all when selcted after that.

didnt atkinson get us relegated with that great team. then fracis got promotion and eventually finished third in the, now, premier league. either francis was a better manager because he acheived more with "atkinsons" team or francis built a better team. he bought the likes of des walker and chris waddle. bart williams and warhurst. mark bright was also part of the success. he also managed to pursuade people like andy sinton to join the club when he could have gone to arsenal. okay sinton was poor but he still prefered us.

there is no question francis was the better manager. 2 cup finals several semi's, european football, mad owl you are indeed mad:hihi:

.... And the 7-1 thrashing at Hillsborough against Notts Forest :hihi:

I conclude I must be a veteran because although Ron Atkinson is the only manager to win anything at Hillsborough during my lifetime, I am amazed not to see the name of Harry Catterick mentioned!
Catterick's team of 1960-61 was brilliant and without the exceptional 'double-winning' team of Spurs that year, Wednesday (runners-up) would have been champions of the old Division 1 - the highest position I've witnessed in my 60 years.
Wednesday finished eight points adrift of Spurs but both clubs lost only seven games and the Owls beat them at Hillsborough.
With money tight at Hillsborough (what's new), Catterick left the club, moved to Everton and shortly afterwards led them to the top-flight title.

Big Ron without a doubt closely followed by King Sturrock during the promotion season.

Big Ron without a doubt closely followed by King Sturrock during the promotion season.


you must be on drugs.one got us relegated and the other played dull boring football and was about to get us relegated to the first division.:loopy:

.... And the 7-1 thrashing at Hillsborough against Notts Forest :hihi:

who was the manager when we got beat 7-1 at highbury?

who was the manager when we got beat 7-1 at highbury?

think is was 6 not 7 and it was tricky trev if memory serves me right but i am drinking at the mo ;)

who was the manager when we got beat 7-1 at highbury?
:gag: ssSSHHHH! dont remind me...:gag:

tricky trev.

:gag: ssSSHHHH! dont remind me...:gag:

tricky trev.

Correct, 15 February 1992. Francis, an excellent player, a good analyst but as GEOCOL said, man-management skills terrible. In all his years of management, he never won anything and had bust-ups with someone at every club. In Wednesday's case, he had several fall-outs, principally with physio Alan Smith who continued to work for England but was professionally challenged by Francis.
Nolan was mentioned earlier; TF played him throughout at left-back when he was a right-footed international. He couldn't centre with his left foot so at the bye-line it had to come back to the apex of the area from where Sinton 'pumped' balls across and it was so predictable.
Not only the 7-1's of Arsenal and Forest, what about that ignominious cup defeat at Molineux on penalties when he couldn't bear to watch? Sheridan, a man who should have been taking a penalty, keeping Francis abreast on the touchline. Players like Pearce and Pressman stepped up - KP (scored) but it was dreadful management, and many of his signings were just as bad.

The side he took to Wembley in 1993 was Atkinson's team. In the FA Cup run, the first Premiership team they met was Sheffield United in the semi-final (they were relegated the following season) so it wasn't such a wondrous achievement. They lost the other final in 1993 and in 1994 he took them to one further semi-final, which was lost! The more he strived to change Atkinson's team, the worse it got. As I've pointed out before, Francis cannot be solely to blame, for when Pleat arrived, they did move up again to finish seventh. One significant problem was that they seemed unable to take on-board, the ramifications of the Bosman ruling.

Correct, 15 February 1992. Francis, an excellent player, a good analyst but as GEOCOL said, man-management skills terrible. In all his years of management, he never won anything and had bust-ups with someone at every club. In Wednesday's case, he had several fall-outs, principally with physio Alan Smith who continued to work for England but was professionally challenged by Francis.
Nolan was mentioned earlier; TF played him throughout at left-back when he was a right-footed international. He couldn't centre with his left foot so at the bye-line it had to come back to the apex of the area from where Sinton 'pumped' balls across and it was so predictable.
Not only the 7-1's of Arsenal and Forest, what about that ignominious cup defeat at Molineux on penalties when he couldn't bear to watch? Sheridan, a man who should have been taking a penalty, keeping Francis abreast on the touchline. Players like Pearce and Pressman stepped up - KP (scored) but it was dreadful management, and many of his signings were just as bad.

The side he took to Wembley in 1993 was Atkinson's team. In the FA Cup run, the first Premiership team they met was Sheffield United in the semi-final (they were relegated the following season) so it wasn't such a wondrous achievement. They lost the other final in 1993 and in 1994 he took them to one further semi-final, which was lost! The more he strived to change Atkinson's team, the worse it got. As I've pointed out before, Francis cannot be solely to blame, for when Pleat arrived, they did move up again to finish seventh. One significant problem was that they seemed unable to take on-board, the ramifications of the Bosman ruling.


but atkinson was relegated with the team.francis finished third in the top league.so how does that make sence?

but atkinson was relegated with the team.francis finished third in the top league.so how does that make sence?

Atkinson came in February '89 and was unable to keep them up. He then brought them back up the following season and got things moving with some momentum before his departure in June 1991.
Francis then assumed THIS squad and they did finish third as you said (1991-92). Subsequently, they started to regress finishing 7th, 7th and 13th but as Francis started to dismantle Atkinson's team, this is when problems started; plus the many rows he had with the squad/staff.

Atkinson came in February '89 and was unable to keep them up. He then brought them back up the following season and got things moving with some momentum before his departure in June 1991.
Francis then assumed THIS squad and they did finish third as you said (1991-92). Subsequently, they started to regress finishing 7th, 7th and 13th but as Francis started to dismantle Atkinson's team, this is when problems started; plus the many rows he had with the squad/staff.
think francis had a lot of players coming to the end of their carrer at the same time though. waddle, walker, woods, nielson,pearson, anderson, shridan....

The best football ive seen so far in the years ive been goin to S6, was the team that Big Ron put together, the likes of King, Harkes, Nilsson & Pearson... well worth the ticket money.

In my view TF did Nowt, he didnt build a better team than the one he was left with from RA, and TF split up that team too soon...

I agree totally with you on this Madowl, at one point every Wednesday player was an international except one, the one who should've been captain of England but wasn't... T'old Pearson!

Waddle - simply a legend.

think francis had a lot of players coming to the end of their carrer at the same time though. waddle, walker, woods, nielson,pearson, anderson, shridan....

Possibly, I have no quibbles with the players named above although he paid £2.7m for Walker who gave excellent service despite two managers claiming how difficult a player he was to manage - and certainly no captain.
Francis paid £1m for Ian Taylor (didn't get much of a go), Ingesson, Petrescu, Coleman -miraculously sold on at a profit -, Sinton £2.75m, Nolan £1.5m (played the man out of position), Jemson £800k, Pearce £500k, Atherton £800k - solid, tried hard but not top drawer, Whittingham £700k, Warhurst £750k whom he upset but TF was at odds with Warhurst's agent. Bright and the exchange of Paul Williams I would consider good business but the use of Gordon Watson had Richards travelling to Southampton to ensure his departure went through.

who was the manager when we got beat 7-1 at highbury?

We all know Danny Wilson was the manager when you got thrashed 8-0 at Newcastle.

Waddle's first season - no doubt. I feel like, and sometimes dance like Madonna, whenever I think of that 5-1 v West Ham.


That's exactly the game I was going to mention. Waddle absolutely destroyed them. It was a joy to watch that game.

Possibly, I have no quibbles with the players named above although he paid £2.7m for Walker who gave excellent service despite two managers claiming how difficult a player he was to manage - and certainly no captain.
Francis paid £1m for Ian Taylor (didn't get much of a go), Ingesson, Petrescu, Coleman -miraculously sold on at a profit -, Sinton £2.75m, Nolan £1.5m (played the man out of position), Jemson £800k, Pearce £500k, Atherton £800k - solid, tried hard but not top drawer, Whittingham £700k, Warhurst £750k whom he upset but TF was at odds with Warhurst's agent. Bright and the exchange of Paul Williams I would consider good business but the use of Gordon Watson had Richards travelling to Southampton to ensure his departure went through.

looking at all the players mentioned there, its only a guess but i bet we didnt loose a lot on the deals.and didnt we swap ian taylor for whittingham?

I conclude I must be a veteran because although Ron Atkinson is the only manager to win anything at Hillsborough during my lifetime, I am amazed not to see the name of Harry Catterick mentioned!
Catterick's team of 1960-61 was brilliant and without the exceptional 'double-winning' team of Spurs that year, Wednesday (runners-up) would have been champions of the old Division 1 - the highest position I've witnessed in my 60 years.
Wednesday finished eight points adrift of Spurs but both clubs lost only seven games and the Owls beat them at Hillsborough.
With money tight at Hillsborough (what's new), Catterick left the club, moved to Everton and shortly afterwards led them to the top-flight title.
You are not alone.
Nobody under 82 years old has seen Wednesday win anything, under anyone else but Atkinson!!!

In the 60's I remember a 6-1 win over Chelsea under Alan Brown, that wasn't such a bad day (John Ritchie's first goals for the club).

Also a Wednesday team taking Everton apart at home in a midweek game with superb football in that era... . only to lose 5-1 in a return, there not long afterwards.
That word consistency comes back again. It was only having watched the "66" final years later on video; I really appreciated how good the football was under Brown - at times!

looking at all the players mentioned there, its only a guess but i bet we didnt loose a lot on the deals.and didnt we swap ian taylor for whittingham?

They moved at the same time, Taylor going for £1m and Whittingham coming for £700k. I haven't got the fees involved for Ingesson and Petrescu but overall, I don't think the side was improved and there was a lot of accumulated 'rubbish', which adds up. As I mentioned earlier, paying £1.5m for Nolan and then playing him out of position!
Palmer was another to fall out with Francis, refusing to play in a certain position but playing for Wilkinson in that very position when Leeds signed him. Warhurst's spat was well-documented, as was Phil King and Hirst was rumoured to have had a bust-up with TF.
The Alan Smith row must have been born of frustration having paid £2.7m for Sinton and frequently injured.
The list and money squandered, I agree, got worse after Francis with higher salaries and Bosman kicking-in but players who looked a joke at Hillsborough went on to excel elsewhere - Stefanovic being a prime example.
Francis moved on, won nothing at any club; announced all the Birmingham players had been put up for transfer, had a fight with the Crystal Palace reserve goalkeeper and had had a bust up with Martin Allen when he played for QPR.
Where he was useful at Hillsborough was as a player under Atkinson when he came on for the last 20 minutes and repeatedly displayed his touches of class. Many internationals have been great players it doesn't turn them into good managers.

You are not alone.
Nobody under 82 years old has seen Wednesday win anything, under anyone else but Atkinson!!!

In the 60's I remember a 6-1 win over Chelsea under Alan Brown, that wasn't such a bad day (John Ritchie's first goals for the club).

Also a Wednesday team taking Everton apart at home in a midweek game with superb football in that era... . only to lose 5-1 in a return, there not long afterwards.
That word consistency comes back again. It was only having watched the "66" final years later on video; I really appreciated how good the football was under Brown - at times!

The younger element on this board just wouldn't believe us if we told them we saw the Owls win 7-2 at Old Trafford in an FA Cup replay (1 Feb '61) - and against Manchester United! Seven weeks later, Wednesday thumped Man.Utd 5-1 at Hillsborough - you really have to pinch yourself. Like Arsenal, light-years away now.
Hence, my nomination for the then manager, Harry Catterick

big ron bought some garbage as well, on signing gordon watson he said "one for the future" erm, sorry ron!

Absolutely - Sedloski, Sanetti being two of his later buys. It was a very bad period because Pleat and Wilson also bought rubbish and it all stacked up in debt - with large wages for the continental stars. I didn't rate Pembridge (and I know I'm not alone) but he went on for years after he left Hillsborough, playing in the Premiership and playing for Wales.
What amazes me is that the man involved through all this financial turmoil is still at the club! I heard Paul Jewell on SSN once say, "What amazed me at SWFC was that a foreign star on a match-to-match contract (Jonk I'm told) got paid whether he played or not."
Now who sanctioned that? We've never had the answers and the way the AGM's are going, never will.
At the one AGM that Jewell attended, (Ponds Forge) Mr.Allen joined the top table as an interested guest. At that meeting we were told: "We know mistakes have been made, we don't need to dwell on them but we've invested in some software which will keep a data base of players and records, their lifestyles etc."
It wasn't very effective as blunders continued: Harkness, Morrison, Knight, Beswetherick, Owusu (who was only ever sick at Hillsborough), feel free to remind me of others - this is post Donnelly, O'Donnell and Scott. All money frittered away.

big ron bought some garbage as well, on signing gordon watson he said "one for the future" erm, sorry ron!

He must have meant future toilet janitor. :hihi:

didnt atkinson get us relegated with that great team. then fracis got promotion and eventually finished third in the, now, premier league. either francis was a better manager because he acheived more with "atkinsons" team or francis built a better team. he bought the likes of des walker and chris waddle. bart williams and warhurst. mark bright was also part of the success. he also managed to pursuade people like andy sinton to join the club when he could have gone to arsenal. okay sinton was poor but he still prefered us.

there is no question francis was the better manager. 2 cup finals several semi's, european football, mad owl you are indeed mad:hihi:

Atkinson got us promoted before he left for Villa :loopy:

you must be on drugs.one got us relegated and the other played dull boring football and was about to get us relegated to the first division.:loopy:

I really don't know what your smoking fella.Atkinson was a class manager and Sturrock would have taken us forward given time.How fickel are Wednesday fans.I bet you didn't think it was boring at the play off final.:loopy:

Absolutely - Sedloski, Sanetti being two of his later buys. It was a very bad period because Pleat and Wilson also bought rubbish

All money frittered away.

Sedloski was OK and a good solid defender, in the two full games he played (one at Arsenal, and the other v Saints at home; when he marked Hirsty out the game) before he got injured.

He did OK for Macedonia as well against England. Their 0-0 draw at OT has almost certainly cost England any chance of qualifying for Euro 2008.

Atkinson got us promoted before he left for Villa :loopy:


SO HE DID,YOU'RE RIGHT!

I really don't know what your smoking fella.Atkinson was a class manager and Sturrock would have taken us forward given time.How fickel are Wednesday fans.I bet you didn't think it was boring at the play off final.:loopy:

the play of final was great. but that doesnt give sturrock a job for life. his level is first division. he's a good manager at that level. there seems to be some sort of false adulation for the man. dont know why, he wasnt that good.

nobodys said about howard wilkinson, lol wonder why? now going back abit i saw d.hirst as a youngster with carl bradshaw, and carl shutt , i was a kid and always tried to be like these players, i remember siggi jonsson and mark chamberlin , god i feel old now:hihi:

SO HE DID,YOU'RE RIGHT!the day b4 he said he'd be a fool to leave the club...:rant:

mmm dalian atkinson never gets a mention in best owls teams he was a good player at wednesday. think it all went to his head in the end.

I believe Dalian Atkinson had a few off-field issues.

The man to whom Wednesday should be most indebted, was Jack Charlton, who righted the ship to great effect in the dark days of the 70's. Wilkinson was a very good manager - he took Leeds to a title - with a system based on ex-Wednesday players. Sterland/Chapman.
He was thorough, well-organised and better at management than he was a player - he'd displayed that at Boston and Notts County from where I think he brought Worthington?
He was a rare, successful former player coming back as manager and he did a good job which couldn't be finished off because of the paucity of money available to him.
Money had rarely been spent at Hillsborough (the odd buy of Ritchie, T.Craig etc) until into the 90's when Woods, Waddell and Walker were bought. More cash became available with the Charterhouse deal and that's where it all started to go wrong with bad buy and appointments, the Bosman ruling etc. and much money squandered - but Wednesday fans should be grateful to Charlton and Wilkinson, even though it may not have been the most attractive football to watch.

I believe Dalian Atkinson had a few off-field issues.

The man to whom Wednesday should be most indebted, was Jack Charlton

Here, Here!! I'll agree with that Chairboy! Times before and during the reign of Len Ashurst were not good (even worse than now!). Jack Charlton came along and steadied the ship on and off the field. Built a great foundation to which Howard Wilkinson and Ron Atkinson added to before David Pleat and Dave Richards sistematically started ruining things!

ur a real pain alex

ZICO sterland now he was a good player!